Empty the Warrens

[Zarathustra]

Well if you want to beat gifts, you just need 2 cards... wipe away and trickbind.

If people were to start using Split Second cards, then Gifts would play Duress.

As we all know Duress precludes a combo in a combo deck.  So, I don't see how these two cards beat Gifts.

-DShell

[desolutionist]

I'm sure everyone by now has realized that Empty the Warrens is incredible and is using 2-3 copies in the sideboard in every deck that can support Red.

It killed Fish and Stax, which now makes Blue Control the best archetype to play.

[Disburden]

I'm sure everyone by now has realized that Empty the Warrens is incredible and is using 2-3 copies in the sideboard in every deck that can support Red.

It killed Fish and Stax, which now makes Blue Control the best archetype to play.

I was doing some playtesting last night with a Brassman style Gifts list (see tournament results forums). The results were really good in the once pretty terrible Fish match. I stormed up a ton of Gobbs atleasts three times! Also I am using Balance in the maindeck with a Tundra instead of one Island. That also helps..

I think the card is really good in Gifts, since you can Gifts for both Tendrils and Warrens ftw.

[Vegeta2711]

I'm sure everyone by now has realized that Empty the Warrens is incredible and is using 2-3 copies in the sideboard in every deck that can support Red.

It killed Fish and Stax, which now makes Blue Control the best archetype to play.

I was doing some playtesting last night with a Brassman style Gifts list (see tournament results forums). The results were really good in the once pretty terrible Fish match. I stormed up a ton of Gobbs atleasts three times! Also I am using Balance in the maindeck with a Tundra instead of one Island. That also helps..

I think the card is really good in Gifts, since you can Gifts for both Tendrils and Warrens ftw.

Why would you ever Gifts for it? I thought the point was just to save a few moxen / repeal / whatever and then drop Warrens on turn 3/4 for 10-14.

[Dnine]

wouldn't goblin bombardment speed up the kill by a full turn.  ETW on turn one for 5 then drop bombardment on turn 2 for the win after swinging.

[Implacable]

wouldn't goblin bombardment speed up the kill by a full turn.  ETW on turn one for 5 then drop bombardment on turn 2 for the win after swinging.

That would take away the entire point of playing EtW.  The card is good because it can basically be stuck into Gifts and it's a good card.  That can be said about almost no cards at all printed in the history of the game.

[OfficeShredder]

wouldn't goblin bombardment speed up the kill by a full turn.  ETW on turn one for 5 then drop bombardment on turn 2 for the win after swinging.

Umm.... gifts can actually get a turn two kill.  Sure, you need the nuts hand, but how much of your hand was devoted to that?

[BreathWeapon]

ETW is so good in control people should MD it, it's better than Tinker Colossus.

[Implacable]

There's not a chance of people ever replacing Colossus with EtW, BreathWeapon.  Empty the Warrens requires other cards to be playable at all, and kills more slowly most of the time or at the same rate, whereas Colossus requires one three-mana, easily tutorable card to be cast.  Colossus is categorically better against most decks because of its ease-of-use, but EtW is better against Fish/Stax because they cannot answer it, period.

[oneofchaos]

There's not a chance of people ever replacing Colossus with EtW, BreathWeapon.  Empty the Warrens requires other cards to be playable at all, and kills more slowly most of the time or at the same rate, whereas Colossus requires one three-mana, easily tutorable card to be cast.  Colossus is categorically better against most decks because of its ease-of-use, but EtW is better against Fish/Stax because they cannot answer it, period.

Perhaps echoing truth could comeback as "the" bounce spell.  Save the rebuild/chain or sometimes wipe away.  Empty the Warrens is pretty much godsend against stax when you can resolve 10 green dorks.  I've actually won games just off having drains in hand, brainstorming and casting ETW for just 4 goblins.  It's versatile and should not be overlooked.  Also since your playing volcanics anyways there is certainly no strain on the mana base (aside fetching out an earlier than normal volc?)

[diopter]

There's not a chance of people ever replacing Colossus with EtW, BreathWeapon.  Empty the Warrens requires other cards to be playable at all, and kills more slowly most of the time or at the same rate, whereas Colossus requires one three-mana, easily tutorable card to be cast.  Colossus is categorically better against most decks because of its ease-of-use, but EtW is better against Fish/Stax because they cannot answer it, period.

Against the majority of the decks where Colossus is better than EtW (for example, against Ritual combo or Drain-based combo-control), Tendrils is better than Colossus anyway. The types of decks that would want to use EtW (usually Gifts) have weak matchups against Fish or Stax anyway. The card deserves some serious scrutiny as an addition to Gifts.

With both EtW and Tendrils being storm kills, it might be useful to revisit the design of Drain combo such as Gifts or Intuitive and consider improving their storm engines. Perhaps an examination of multiple Ritual effects in this archetype is in order...

[Neonico]

There are a lot of arguments for EtW vs ToA.
First of all, The EtW kill is really synergic with cards that ToA kill doesn’t use as their full level, mainly Time Walk. Time walk is just one more storm in the ToA kill where it’s a good tool with EtW.
Also, the EtW kills require only Time walk and tinker when you try to achieve it with the time to set it up. Spell, spell (optional), tinker, walk, empty the warrens and you’re done. Another main advantage is that Will is irrevelant in the Empty the warrens kill, and you’re totally independent of your graveyard. ToA kill is really hard to achieve as soon as you face a little of denial. And you have no other choice than 9 spells + ToA, where EtW can kill with only 3 or 4 spells.
As mentioned, the EtW kill is really good against stax (lots of permanents) and against fish (lots of creatures to race his own). But itas also really good against control (except slaver, the only deck that still plays Echoing thruth) and perhaps bomberman (playing Engineered explosives) even if it’s a good way to get time because of your blockers. In gifts mirrors, A fast empty the warrens wins games really easily as far as I tested it.

A fast Pro/cons of EtW vs colossus
Against Echoing Thruth : tie, it deals with both the same way.
Against Swords to Plowshares : EtW >>> Colossus. Even with ToA kill as a backup and 11 life to set up it, its often a bad thing to get a colossus sworded.
Against any bounce spells : EtW >>> colossus, easy to figure
Against Diabolic edict likes : EtW >>> colossus, easy to figure why too
Against Engineered Explosives : Colossus >>> EtW, it’s the main EtW hoser, perhaps, more than echoing thruth, the card that will see more play if EtW is played.
Its also hosed by pyroclasm and massacre so it  can be too much to consider it instead of colossus but as a complement.

I’m totally for this card in Gifts ungiven deck. In testing, its totally insane. You cant totally remove the ToA kill (actually, in my Sideboard, with Burning Wish) and at least, it feets really well the French metagame (non proxy tournaments, aggro is played a lot more than in the US). The real question for me actually is : can I adapt my gifts deck to include ttols to protect my goblins….

[BreathWeapon]

There's not a chance of people ever replacing Colossus with EtW, BreathWeapon.  Empty the Warrens requires other cards to be playable at all, and kills more slowly most of the time or at the same rate, whereas Colossus requires one three-mana, easily tutorable card to be cast.  Colossus is categorically better against most decks because of its ease-of-use, but EtW is better against Fish/Stax because they cannot answer it, period.

Just because a card is better than another in the control match doesn't mean it should replace the other, cutting Tinker->Colossus is a retarded idea; I didn't think that needed an explanation. ETW is good against control, not aggro control, because it is a more efficient Decree of Justice; Fish deals with the card just fine, it either counters it with Stifle or removes it with Echoing Truth (Swords to Plowshares RIP) or it discards it with Duress or it RFGs it with Hide/Seek or it resolved Nulll Rod or Chalice of the Void to keep the opponent off 4 mana. Using ETW in the place of cheap mass removal like Massacre or Pyroclasm or board advantage cards like Old Man of the Sea, Seasinger or Threads of Disloyalty is dubious, IMO.

Removing Tendrils of ETW is also questionable, because the cards aren't meant to do the same thing in the deck.

[cherub_daemon]

I'm curious if, in a deck which is already Wishing up Tendrils, the solution is to include ETW as fizzle protection in the board; play out the hand as though you were going to go to Tendrils, if you can't hit 9 storm, audible over to ETW and hope to finish things that way. It's got to be better than just crapping out with no hand and an opponent at 2 life. Plus, it's a sneaky way around a resolved Mage.

[OfficeShredder]

Or as "crap, I only have a lotus and a mana crypt out, now I can't wish for tendrils" protection (once is too many times!  :lol: )

[Implacable]

I'm curious if, in a deck which is already Wishing up Tendrils, the solution is to include ETW as fizzle protection in the board; play out the hand as though you were going to go to Tendrils, if you can't hit 9 storm, audible over to ETW and hope to finish things that way. It's got to be better than just crapping out with no hand and an opponent at 2 life. Plus, it's a sneaky way around a resolved Mage.

Do you still run Burning Wish?  I cut it months ago for simple MD Tendrils.  It didn't seem like fetching anything else was worth denying myself the best kill condition in the deck.

[desolutionist]

I'm curious if, in a deck which is already Wishing up Tendrils, the solution is to include ETW as fizzle protection in the board; play out the hand as though you were going to go to Tendrils, if you can't hit 9 storm, audible over to ETW and hope to finish things that way. It's got to be better than just crapping out with no hand and an opponent at 2 life. Plus, it's a sneaky way around a resolved Mage.

Do you still run Burning Wish?  I cut it months ago for simple MD Tendrils.  It didn't seem like fetching anything else was worth denying myself the best kill condition in the deck.

That was the point of his post.  Burning Wish is bad.

[dicemanx]

You cannot simplify things by saying that fetching something other than Tendrils is "denying" yourself the "best win condition".

There is a trade-off with Burning Wish - you increase the mana requirement when comboing off with Tendrils, but you have greater flexibility by being able to fetch cards like Time Walk, Pyroclasm, Eye of Nowhere, or Duress. given that about 80-90% of the time the actual kill is largely irrelevant, it makes the flexibility of Wish arguably more important than the mana it saves so that you can win via the "best" kill card a tad easier.

[desolutionist]

You cannot simplify things by saying that fetching something other than Tendrils is "denying" yourself the "best win condition".

There is a trade-off with Burning Wish - you increase the mana requirement when comboing off with Tendrils, but you have greater flexibility by being able to fetch cards like Time Walk, Pyroclasm, Eye of Nowhere, or Duress. given that about 80-90% of the time the actual kill is largely irrelevant, it makes the flexibility of Wish arguably more important than the mana it saves so that you can win via the "best" kill card a tad easier.

You're also now even more vulnerable to Chalice@2, Null Rod, and Wasteland as well as being forced to combo out later instead of now to find that extra R source.  Oh, it also limits the capabilities of your sideboard.  Using Burning Wish over your only MD optimal win condtion is situationally terrible.

I prefer Burning Wish AND Tendrils of Agony as opposed to Tinker, Colossus, and Burning Wish/Tendrils of Agony.

[dicemanx]

You cannot simplify things by saying that fetching something other than Tendrils is "denying" yourself the "best win condition".

There is a trade-off with Burning Wish - you increase the mana requirement when comboing off with Tendrils, but you have greater flexibility by being able to fetch cards like Time Walk, Pyroclasm, Eye of Nowhere, or Duress. given that about 80-90% of the time the actual kill is largely irrelevant, it makes the flexibility of Wish arguably more important than the mana it saves so that you can win via the "best" kill card a tad easier.

You're also now even more vulnerable to Chalice@2, Null Rod, and Wasteland as well as being forced to combo out later instead of now to find that extra R source.  Oh, it also limits the capabilities of your sideboard.  Using Burning Wish over your only MD optimal win condtion is situationally terrible.

I prefer Burning Wish AND Tendrils of Agony as opposed to Tinker, Colossus, and Burning Wish/Tendrils of Agony.

"Situationally terrible"? There are cleary situations where Wish is superior, so that phrase doesn't have much value.

You seem to ignore in your analysis that there are trade-offs here. You look at the downside, and use that as justification for your assertion that Burning Wish is "terrible". There are players far better than you that have proven how effective Burning Wish and even tinker/DSC are in Gifts already - did they make a mistake in deck construction? Have they been playing the deck incorrectly? What empirical evidence do you have that clearly shows that main deck Tendrils is the superior choice?

[desolutionist]

You cannot simplify things by saying that fetching something other than Tendrils is "denying" yourself the "best win condition".

There is a trade-off with Burning Wish - you increase the mana requirement when comboing off with Tendrils, but you have greater flexibility by being able to fetch cards like Time Walk, Pyroclasm, Eye of Nowhere, or Duress. given that about 80-90% of the time the actual kill is largely irrelevant, it makes the flexibility of Wish arguably more important than the mana it saves so that you can win via the "best" kill card a tad easier.

You're also now even more vulnerable to Chalice@2, Null Rod, and Wasteland as well as being forced to combo out later instead of now to find that extra R source.  Oh, it also limits the capabilities of your sideboard.  Using Burning Wish over your only MD optimal win condtion is situationally terrible.

I prefer Burning Wish AND Tendrils of Agony as opposed to Tinker, Colossus, and Burning Wish/Tendrils of Agony.

"Situationally terrible"? There are cleary situations where Wish is superior, so that phrase doesn't have much value.

It does if those situations where Wish is superior occur less often than otherwise.  Prove that Wishing for anything other than Tendrils is optimal in most games, and I'll concede.

You seem to ignore in your analysis that there are trade-offs here. You look at the downside, and use that as justification for your assertion that Burning Wish is "terrible". There are players far better than you that have proven how effective Burning Wish and even tinker/DSC are in Gifts already - did they make a mistake in deck construction? Have they been playing the deck incorrectly? What empirical evidence do you have that clearly shows that main deck Tendrils is the superior choice?

Empirical?  Look at all of the recent major tournaments that Gifts placed in; I recall only a single build that used Wish over Tendrils.  But a 6-8 round tournament is too small of a sample size to determine anything relevant.  Any version of Gifts would have mirrored the rogue's results.  I'd rather keep this discussion productive through theory and logic.

[dicemanx]

It does if those situations where Wish is superior occur less often than otherwise.  Prove that Wishing for anything other than Tendrils is optimal in most games, and I'll concede.

This isn't a comparison between Wishing for Tendrils or "something else". Wish affords you a degree of flexibility that's relevant in games where you're NOT already winning and in a position to combo off with Tendrils. Tendrils does squat in games where you could otherwise Wish for a Duress or Pyroclasm/Massacre (cards you'd run in the SB anyways) to save yourself or build a winning advantage, or games where you can punch through another DSC hit by Wishing for Time Walk.

Empirical?  Look at all of the recent major tournaments that Gifts placed in; I recall only a single build that used Wish over Tendrils.  But a 6-8 round tournament is too small of a sample size to determine anything relevant.  Any version of Gifts would have mirrored the rogue's results.  I'd rather keep this discussion productive through theory and logic.

Your statements are very extreme - you're absolutely convinced that Wish is inferior. However, any decent player is wary of the challenges in trying to identify what's objectively best in spite of a popular, possibly short lived trends. You seem to be easily swayed by the successes of recent Gifts decks that elected to run Tendrils over Wish (of which I was aware before you answered my question), and that seems to be sufficient proof for you that Tendrils is so completely superior. Well, given that one slot is not likely to affect results too much in an already very powerful and forgiving archetype, and given that Wish based Gifts decks have enjoyed a lot of success as well, it's very difficult to examine results and definitively say that one card is best.

It's also a bit ironic that you express a desire to keep the discussion productive through "logic", and yet you seem to be so easily satisfied by evidence that is far from satisfactory or conclusive. Perhaps if the successful Gifts players decide to switch back to Wish, you'll tell us how superior Wish happens to be over Tendrils?

[Vegeta2711]

Prove that Wishing for anything other than Tendrils is optimal in most games, and I'll concede.

What kind of logic are you even attempting to use here? Not only have you presented an impossible to prove statement, but it's also a ridiculous notion, considering the main reasoning behind using Wish is for added flexibility overall. The idea behind Wish isn't that it'd be better in the majority, it would be that it's -nearly as good- in the majority while doing better in the minority. Not saying I agree with Wish's inclusion or being cut, just pointing out that what your asking for is impossible to actually prove without a huge amount of data and variables we don't even have access too.

[desolutionist]

Prove that Wishing for anything other than Tendrils is optimal in most games, and I'll concede.

What kind of logic are you even attempting to use here? Not only have you presented an impossible to prove statement, but it's also a ridiculous notion, considering the main reasoning behind using Wish is for added flexibility overall. The idea behind Wish isn't that it'd be better in the majority, it would be that it's -nearly as good- in the majority while doing better in the minority.

It isn't nearly as good in the majority and will result in more game loses than the "flexibility" will result in wins.  You will needlessly be spending an additional 1R to win every game.  Wish only merits inclusion over ToA if that flexibility is actually relevant more often than not. 

This isn't a comparison between Wishing for Tendrils or "something else". Wish affords you a degree of flexibility that's relevant in games where you're NOT already winning and in a position to combo off with Tendrils. Tendrils does squat in games where you could otherwise Wish for a Duress or Pyroclasm/Massacre (cards you'd run in the SB anyways) to save yourself or build a winning advantage, or games where you can punch through another DSC hit by Wishing for Time Walk.

You're viewing B.Wish too optimistically and not considering the negatives.  You like B.Wish because it gives you a chance, no matter how small that chance is, to recover from a lost game and win; it is essentially if-something-goes-wrong insurance.  But using it for this purpose forces you to rely on Colossus, who is never reliable enough to guarantee the win anyway.  So B.Wish, at its best, merely attempts to win lost games.  Now consider all of the situations where ToA is strictly better than B.Wish (And that is anytime you win via Tendrils) and all of the situations where the extra 1R was either 1, R, or 1R too much.  In other words, Wish will lose you won games.  Perhaps it is preference?  Using Wish sometimes wins you lost games at the expense of some of your won games.

Your statements are very extreme - you're absolutely convinced that Wish is inferior. However, any decent player is wary of the challenges in trying to identify what's objectively best in spite of a popular, possibly short lived trends. You seem to be easily swayed by the successes of recent Gifts decks that elected to run Tendrils over Wish (of which I was aware before you answered my question), and that seems to be sufficient proof for you that Tendrils is so completely superior. Well, given that one slot is not likely to affect results too much in an already very powerful and forgiving archetype, and given that Wish based Gifts decks have enjoyed a lot of success as well, it's very difficult to examine results and definitively say that one card is best.

It's also a bit ironic that you express a desire to keep the discussion productive through "logic", and yet you seem to be so easily satisfied by evidence that is far from satisfactory or conclusive. Perhaps if the successful Gifts players decide to switch back to Wish, you'll tell us how superior Wish happens to be over Tendrils?

Why do you think this?  Is there something wrong with supporting my argument with concrete results?

[zeus-online]

I'm inclined to agree with desolutionist, however....i think its about playstyle!

Playing with a maindeck tendrils is more aggressive, and makes it easier to combo out faster, while wish is much more controlling, giving the pilot access to a variety of answers.

Personally i prefer tendrils, as i like having a few games where i can just blow my opponent away with a ToA during the first couple of turns - something i could never do with Burning wish.

/Zeus

[oneofchaos]

Well if you want to beat gifts, you just need 2 cards... wipe away and trickbind.

Once again as somebody previously posted, if people start hating gifts with split second cards it will do a little jig and start playing duress.

[Imsomniac101]

Quote from: Vegeta2711 on January 02, 2007, 01:39:16 PM
Quote

Prove that Wishing for anything other than Tendrils is optimal in most games, and I'll concede.

What kind of logic are you even attempting to use here? Not only have you presented an impossible to prove statement, but it's also a ridiculous notion, considering the main reasoning behind using Wish is for added flexibility overall. The idea behind Wish isn't that it'd be better in the majority, it would be that it's -nearly as good- in the majority while doing better in the minority.

It isn't nearly as good in the majority and will result in more game loses than the "flexibility" will result in wins.  You will needlessly be spending an additional 1R to win every game.  Wish only merits inclusion over ToA if that flexibility is actually relevant more often than not.

That's not true at all. Wish gives you outs to Fish that the Maindeck doesn't allow, and provides a way to fetch Tendrils if you do not need to Pyroclasm or Massacre. Plus you are overestimating the extra speed ToA MD gives you, and severely underestimating the power of wishing for Walk, Will, answer.

This isn't a comparison between Wishing for Tendrils or "something else". Wish affords you a degree of flexibility that's relevant in games where you're NOT already winning and in a position to combo off with Tendrils. Tendrils does squat in games where you could otherwise Wish for a Duress or Pyroclasm/Massacre (cards you'd run in the SB anyways) to save yourself or build a winning advantage, or games where you can punch through another DSC hit by Wishing for Time Walk.

You're viewing B.Wish too optimistically and not considering the negatives.  You like B.Wish because it gives you a chance, no matter how small that chance is, to recover from a lost game and win; it is essentially if-something-goes-wrong insurance.  But using it for this purpose forces you to rely on Colossus, who is never reliable enough to guarantee the win anyway.  So B.Wish, at its best, merely attempts to win lost games.  Now consider all of the situations where ToA is strictly better than B.Wish (And that is anytime you win via Tendrils) and all of the situations where the extra 1R was either 1, R, or 1R too much.  In other words, Wish will lose you won games.  Perhaps it is preference?  Using Wish sometimes wins you lost games at the expense of some of your won games.

Bolded statement really aggravates me here. You're saying that Tendrils over wish is more optimal because empirical evidence proves you right, yet when it comes to Colossus (who btw is NOT a suboptimal win condition) the empirical evidence proves you wrong.

Back on topic, I think EtW is a pretty terrible addition to the maindeck. If all you're saying is that it's good against control, and nothing else, then I would definitely call it a terribly MD call. MDG is already exceedingly good in theDrain mirror, why add something that's just dead weight? However, I do see merit in adding EtW IF it is for the Stax and Fish matchups (ie the matchups that actually concern Gifts)

[desolutionist]

That's not true at all. Wish gives you outs to Fish that the Maindeck doesn't allow, and provides a way to fetch Tendrils if you do not need to Pyroclasm or Massacre. Plus you are overestimating the extra speed ToA MD gives you, and severely underestimating the power of wishing for Walk, Will, answer.

Exactly how does this disprove my assertion that Burning Wish will result in more loses than wins?  I've used both and Wish sucks.

Memorize this:  (It's fact)

"Burning Wish attempts to win lost games while losing won games."

Bolded statement really aggravates me here. You're saying that Tendrils over wish is more optimal because empirical evidence proves you right, yet when it comes to Colossus (who btw is NOT a suboptimal win condition) the empirical evidence proves you wrong.

Please get off this "empirical" roller-coaster; it is stupid.  I clearly only defended my argument with empirical data at Peter's request and I even claimed that the information is not valuable.  Oh yeah, Colossus is wretched. 

Back on topic, I think EtW is a pretty terrible addition to the maindeck. If all you're saying is that it's good against control, and nothing else, then I would definitely call it a terribly MD call. MDG is already exceedingly good in theDrain mirror, why add something that's just dead weight?

That block of text is dripping with ignorance. (i.e. every sentence is false)

EtW is the second best kill in Vintage and is good against every single deck.

[Imsomniac101]

That's not true at all. Wish gives you outs to Fish that the Maindeck doesn't allow, and provides a way to fetch Tendrils if you do not need to Pyroclasm or Massacre. Plus you are overestimating the extra speed ToA MD gives you, and severely underestimating the power of wishing for Walk, Will, answer.

Exactly how does this disprove my assertion that Burning Wish will result in more loses than wins?  I've used both and Wish sucks.

Memorize this:  (It's fact)

"Burning Wish attempts to win lost games while losing won games."

So what? I've used both as well, and I say that Extra Speed given by MD Tendrils<Flexibility of Wish. The Wish gives you outs to games that you SHOULDN'T lose although you did because you didn't have a proper answer to a board threat.

Bolded statement really aggravates me here. You're saying that Tendrils over wish is more optimal because empirical evidence proves you right, yet when it comes to Colossus (who btw is NOT a suboptimal win condition) the empirical evidence proves you wrong.

Please get off this "empirical" roller-coaster; it is stupid.  I clearly only defended my argument with empirical data at Peter's request and I even claimed that the information is not valuable.  Oh yeah, Colossus is wretched.

Why do you think this?  Is there something wrong with supporting my argument with concrete results?

The empirical data is clearly relevant, and not stupid as you put it. You used empirical data to support your Tendrils is better than Wish argument, yet the Colossus is crap argument suffers when we use empirical data to test it.

Back on topic, I think EtW is a pretty terrible addition to the maindeck. If all you're saying is that it's good against control, and nothing else, then I would definitely call it a terribly MD call. MDG is already exceedingly good in the Drain mirror, why add something that's just dead weight?

That block of text is dripping with ignorance. (i.e. every sentence is false)

EtW is the second best kill in Vintage and is good against every single deck.

How is that ignorant? Show me. All you've used so far are extreme statements and aggressive assertions that you are right.

Quote tags fixed.
-Godder

[Vegeta2711]

That block of text is dripping with ignorance. (i.e. every sentence is false)

EtW is the second best kill in Vintage and is good against every single deck.

Get off your high horse, you haven't shown jack in the way of actual evidence or logical reasoning to back this up. All your doing is essentially saying, 'dur I"M RITE AND UR WRONG. DUMBASS. BLAH BLAH BLAH, YOU SUCK FOR THIKING WISH IS GOOD"

I'm especially amused by you quoting my post and telling me how wrong I am when I specifically said I wasn't voting for or against Wish, merely stating what the logic was behind it. Seriously, less hyperbole and bullshit and more facts plzkthx.