Control Slaver Vs ICBM oath

[McBain]

This is a matchup were i cannot help but feel i am at a sure disadvantage.
The slaver player is pretty much in hardcore defense mode, and the oath player is just looking to drop a rod or oath and then win, now in a fair game where niether player is drawing a million cards, the oath player can just keep pumping out the threats and eventually win.
In game 2/3 im am unsure on what i want to be boarding out and in?
What are cards that i want to bring in vs them??

Ensnaring Bridge- A good option, immune to null rod and lets oath resolve.
untell the printing of Ancient grudge...which destroys this plan, it is usefull if you have a welder in play though.

DarkBlast- Holds off the win for a bit, costs you your draw, which means that you dont really have a way to find answers and advance your board.

Claws of Gix- A great card, pitchs for thirst, as does bridge, and give you life- which is a semi timewalk vs oath some games. O ya, and it gets OWNED by null rod.

Red Elemental Blast- Helps in the counter war...can be dead card sometimes, cannot stop an oath.

Stifle- Hampers there development, allows you to develop and reach late game.

Duress- An option, this allows the slaver player to play more aggresively and nuter oath in its infancey, not as much help once oath in play.

Bounce- River/chain/repeal/truth/wipe- some can bounce angels rods and oath, other can only do some, which are the best picks, and is it still a good use of space in the sb vs other matchups.

Mabye i missed a few, if so please point them out, what are peoples experiences on this issue vs oath. Gifts and other controllish decks are in the same boat,
thoughts? Suggestions?

[Moxlotus]

Honestly, just accept your loss and hope you win round 1 so you don't get paired against Oath.

Oath should be bringing in at least a few oxidizes, so Bridge is out.

Oath may or may not be prepared for Bridge and is using Guiltfeeder.

All of your other answers you listed have disadvantages.  I'd just board in the splash cards that happen to be useful against Oath, but are there for other purposes like REB.

Basically I'd just accept your loss and focus on other matches.  That's what my CS playing teammates have decided, and what the former Oath players recommend to them.

[wethepeople]

Goblin Bombardment works to eat up all the Spirit tokens, and it isnt stopped by Null Rod. I think this would work much better than Darkblast because you can still draw rather than having to Dredge each turn. I dont suggest using bounce to get rid of the creatures because game two, if not game three, they will just bring in Simic Sky Swallower, but I dont they will game two versus CS, I mainly only see that against Fish. It is possible to use Bounce g2, then g3 they will probably bring in SSS, so then you can just side in Goblin Bombardment g3 to stall Oath all game.

[brianpk80]

Waterfront Bouncer looks feasible here.  Cheap to cast, in your colors, and Oath won't be expecting it so no Simic Sky Swallower.  You can get extra mileage out of its sideboard slot by considering its anti-Gifts, anti-Goblins, anti-Fish, anti-5-Color Stax, and other applications.  Duplicant and Jester's Cap are Stax answers that might translate decently into Slaver.  Nothing's perfect though.
Noetic Scales is worth looking into as well.  

-BPK

[Sextiger]

 The best way to beat Oath is just tinker in Colossus and beat their face in, hes too big for any of their creatures.  While oath may have more bomb spells in this matchup, control slaver usually has the much better draw engine.  With your superior draw engine, all you need to do is find the tinker and counter any random removal they may have. 

Even if you feel this is a terrible matchup, I would just live with it as suggested by Moxlotus.  Oath is not a really popular deck and you won't run into it that often. 

[sa17dk]

Oath isnt played as much as it used to be so you shouldnt worry too much.

Oath is one of those decks designed to smash Slaver's face.

[wethepeople]

Waterfront Bouncer looks feasible here.  Cheap to cast, in your colors, and Oath won't be expecting it so no Simic Sky Swallower.  You can get extra mileage out of its sideboard slot by considering its anti-Gifts, anti-Goblins, anti-Fish, anti-5-Color Stax, and other applications.  Duplicant and Jester's Cap are Stax answers that might translate decently into Slaver.  Nothing's perfect though.
Noetic Scales is worth looking into as well.  

-BPK

Yeah, I was thinking of suggesting Bouncer also but I figured by game three they would think to bring in SSS to get around him. Game two CS can always take advantage of using Bounce and other removal because Simic Sky Swallower doesnt always come in. I am afraid that game three they will know what you are doing, so expect them to bring in SSS. I used to pack like 6 cards in my SB just for Oath until I realized that it really isnt even widely played. After looking through several tournament reports I have found that there is hardly any Oath players at all showing up in the past few tournaments I have went to.

[McBain]

So what the general opinion is, we should lock oath in a basement and beat it with sacs of oranges untel people  just dont play it ever...because its still a very viable deck.

Oath isnt played as much as it used to be so you shouldnt worry too much.

Oath is one of those decks designed to smash Slaver's face.

So what happens to slaver in a heavy oath/fish field? do we go play Urgo rivards build?
I seem to remember this deck was meta'ed for a fish/oath meta.

Reference:

A Vintage deck, by Ugo Rivard
1st place at a StarCityGames Power 9 Tournament tournament in Rochester, New York on 2005-12-11

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures
1 Platinum Angel
1 Triskelion

Creatures
3 Goblin Welder

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mana Leak
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Artifact Lands
1 Seat Of The Synod

Basic Lands
3 Island

Lands
1 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
2 Lava Dart
1 Pyroblast
3 Rack And Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm

Interesting choices, Plat angel...oath cant win if oath cant kill you...ANCIENT GRUDGE, o right.
+2 Lava dart board, +3blood moon....
Md COW, which people still play, im still on the fence on this one, however, this allows strip mine and Seat of synod to be very dangerous lands. infinte slave  strip lock is nice. No dups anywhere to be seen. Also 3 mana leak, this give a good early game vs fish and oath, any deck for that matter.
Kinda out dated, but still viable, peoples thoughts????

[pyr0ma5ta]

A card that I've sideboarded in the past against Oath with good effectiveness is Annul.  It hits both Oath and Rod, and is more than reasonable against Stax as well. 

[sa17dk]

Why would you play Slaver in an Oath/Fish field?

[zulander]

Pithing needle is a good card to put in your side imho. Stops vial fish, and oath as well.

[Dominik]

Pithing needle is a good card to put in your side imho. Stops vial fish, and oath as well.

Pithing Needle does not stop vial fish, it is merely a slight inconvenience most of the time. I know how this archetype works, and they do not need vial to do well, it is just really handy if it is there. If I were to play vial fish, I'd be happy that the Slaver player named Vial instead of something more disruptive like wasteland.

Also, I really don't understand how Pithing needle does anything against Oath except stop some of their fetches (as well as the Slaver player's fetches), and their 2 wastes / 1 Strip Mine. Care to explain?

In my opinion, Slaver's best bet against Oath would be Ensnaring Bridge. Even if they counter it, you can always weld it in, so that's a big plus.

[wethepeople]

Also, I really don't understand how Pithing needle does anything against Oath except stop some of their fetches (as well as the Slaver player's fetches), and their 2 wastes / 1 Strip Mine. Care to explain?

Oath of Druids reads:

During each player's upkeep, if that player controls fewer creatures than target opponent, the player may reveal cards from his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. The player puts that creature into play and all other revealed cards into his or her graveyard.

So if I am not mistaken, Pithing Needle prevents players from using this ability. I was unsure of how that worked at first also, but after I read the card text I figured that was how it worked.

[Dominik]

Also, I really don't understand how Pithing needle does anything against Oath except stop some of their fetches (as well as the Slaver player's fetches), and their 2 wastes / 1 Strip Mine. Care to explain?

Oath of Druids reads:

During each player's upkeep, if that player controls fewer creatures than target opponent, the player may reveal cards from his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. The player puts that creature into play and all other revealed cards into his or her graveyard.

So if I am not mistaken, Pithing Needle prevents players from using this ability. I was unsure of how that worked at first also, but after I read the card text I figured that was how it worked.

It would need to have ":" in it to be considered an activated ability.

Oath is a triggered ability, so the needle would not affect it (Triggered abilities all use the words "when," "whenever," and "at"), the current wording of Oath is:

At the beginning of each player’s upkeep, if that player controls fewer creatures than any of his or her opponents, the player may reveal cards from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. The player puts that card into play and all other cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard.

[wethepeople]

Also, I really don't understand how Pithing needle does anything against Oath except stop some of their fetches (as well as the Slaver player's fetches), and their 2 wastes / 1 Strip Mine. Care to explain?

Oath of Druids reads:

During each player's upkeep, if that player controls fewer creatures than target opponent, the player may reveal cards from his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. The player puts that creature into play and all other revealed cards into his or her graveyard.

So if I am not mistaken, Pithing Needle prevents players from using this ability. I was unsure of how that worked at first also, but after I read the card text I figured that was how it worked.

It would need to have ":" in it to be considered an activated ability, no?

Oath is a triggered ability, so the needle would not affect it (Triggered abilities all use the words "when," "whenever," and "at"), the current wording of Oath is:

At the beginning of each player’s upkeep, if that player controls fewer creatures than any of his or her opponents, the player may reveal cards from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. The player puts that card into play and all other cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard.

I too am unsure of this situation, so I must admit I am in no position to argue. Zulander/someone who knows, could you explain?

[Khahan]

It doesn't take much of an explanation.
The oracle text for pithing needle is:
As ~this~ comes into play, name a card. Non-mana activated abilties of that card cannot be played.



An activated ability is an ability that reads  Cost:effect

[brianpk80]

It doesn't take much of an explanation.
The oracle text for pithing needle is:
As ~this~ comes into play, name a card. Non-mana activated abilties of that card cannot be played.

An activated ability is an ability that reads  Cost:effect

Khahan is right here.  Oath of Druids is a triggered ability.  It can be Stifled/Trickbinded but not Pithing Needled.  Same goes for the Spirit token creation part of Forbidden Orchard.  You can Stifle/Trickbind it, but Pithing Needle won't work.  If Orchard read, "tap: put a 1/1 Spirit token into play under opponent's control," then it could be Needled.  As written, it's an activated mana ability with a triggered ability attached to it, neither of which Needle hits.

Annul, Waterfront Bouncer/Gilded Drake, Jester's Cap/Rootwater Thief, and Noetic Scales are the best ideas I can think of to stunt Oath with Slaver's mana base.

-BPK   

[MarkPharaoh]

Bridge is your best bet.  With almost no one running it SB and Stax practically disappeared from most metas a lot of Oath decks dropped Oxidize and Energy Flux and almost no one is using the Gulitfeeder at the moment.  Most of the other cards like Spellbomb, Waterfront, Cap, Bombardment, Claws, etc etc. all get hit by Pithing Needle.  After Bridge, Annul is pretty good and has applications in some other matchups as well.

[cophos]

Although it might be rather obvious: Just keep in mind that in general slaver's simply more broken than Oath. Besides the enchantment itself Oath's not able to go seriously broken. (Even their best aggresive play: 1.Turn Oath grants some time to find an answer/kill the oath player.) It's not capable of using Drain/Tinker and Will effectively and plays out rather unimpressive without an early Oath. All the games I won vs Oath playing CS were based on serious brokeness and tight playing. If one's able to survive the early game and get out a fair amount of manasources Oath's outdrawn and therefore outcountered fairly easily.  Draining a single spell can often lead to a game ending advantage. (Furthermore resolved Will wins in pretty much every situation.) I'm not claiming it's an easy task to accomplish facing a deck packed with Chalice/Rod/Duress(Countermagic and a fairly quick win condition but Oath won't start every game with a hand full of gas and simply hasn't got the same powerlevel regarding single cards. I'd be careful with playing too many narrow cards since CS is apparently able to fight Oath nevertheless.
(If one's environment contains a lot of Oath though, I'd rather want to play a different deck.. )

edit:

In a fair game where niether player is drawing a million cards, the oath player can just keep pumping out the threats and eventually win.

The main problem here's the "fair". One of the most important goals of CS in this matchup has to be "going unfair". One of the few advantages CS has got is the bigger chance of doing broken things. As long as both play fair CS hasn't really a good shot at winning but since it will play broken things more frequently than the opponent it will still win a fair share games.
Obviously the game can also be won in the pure control mode. But most of the time this won't work without some serious brokeness involved. (Let's say counter their first turn threat followed by a very early Recall/Thirst and drain mana up.)

[Demonic Attorney]

One of the better cards against Oath is Duress; early on, it can take out an Oath of Druids and make a good hand into a bad one.  Later, it can provide an additional control mechanism, making sure your key bomb spells resolve when needed.  Another clear advantage of Duress is its usefulness in a wide array of other matchups, from control to combo.  To this end, if I'm expecting a metagame containing a strong showing of Oath along with other decks susceptible to Duress, I'll often run 2 or 3.

In terms of sideboard, I'm really excited about Wipe Away as a potential new asset in the Oath matchup.  An Oath player's inability to use countermagic to protect their creatures will force reliance on Simic Sky Swallower.  Since SSS lacks haste and trample, you'll have a great deal of extra time even in the sticky situations involving an early oath with force backup followed by an orchard.  This is basically my strategy against Oath; if I can buy 2-3 extra turns with bounce, or supplemental control cards (REB or Duress), I've virtually always come out on top.  To this end, I've also been very happy with Seal of Removal.  Its 1cc speed often allows you to get it in past Oath's counterwall, and it's also quite strong in the Dragon matchup, maximizing the utility of sideboard slots.  In closing, I must emphasize that over several CS/Oath matchups on the CS side, I've reliably found that if CS can survive to turn four or five, its superior manabase, draw engine, and control mechanisms will almost always lead to victory.

[wethepeople]

One of the better cards against Oath is Duress; early on, it can take out an Oath of Druids and make a good hand into a bad one.  Later, it can provide an additional control mechanism, making sure your key bomb spells resolve when needed.  Another clear advantage of Duress is its usefulness in a wide array of other matchups, from control to combo.  To this end, if I'm expecting a metagame containing a strong showing of Oath along with other decks susceptible to Duress, I'll often run 2 or 3.

For some reason I didnt even think of Duress, it's something that has saved me versus Oath several times, and I didnt even bother suggesting it. I MD two Duress in the URBana Fish deck I am currently playing, and I have another random one in the sideboard that I have brought in several times versus a lot of non-aggro decks in exchange for my MD creature removal.

[netherspirit]

Deathmark
 
Sorcery
Destroy target green or white creature.

Could this be a possible answer in SB for games 2 and 3?

[misslehead3]

Deathmark
 
Sorcery
Destroy target green or white creature.

Could this be a possible answer in SB for games 2 and 3?

I'm not too sure. Deathmark vs. even chain of vapor let's compare

Deathmark
Used against Oath, maybe if they don't side in SSS
Used against Fish probobly
Used most likely not against Random Aggro
Black
Sorcery Speed
Goes to the grave

Chain of Vapor
Used against well, everything. Stax, Oath, Fish, Slaver, probobly not combo.
Blue, so it can be pitched to fow, and its blue so its better
Instant Speed removal
Goes to their hand


I would rather use Chain of Vapor because it bounces, it pitches to fow, and its instant speed.

[brianpk80]

Deathmark
 
Sorcery
Destroy target green or white creature.

Could this be a possible answer in SB for games 2 and 3?

Good find, but probably not applicable to the Oath match.  It won't hit Simic Sky Swallower or Akroma (protection from black) and can't target many of the combo-Oath pieces either like Tidespout Tyrant. 

Ensnaring Bridge is good to stall the game v. Oath until they find Oxidize, but for one mana more, Noetic Scales will do permanent damage by returning the creatures to Oath's hand, which is the last place they want to be.

-BPK

[netherspirit]

Deathmark
 
Sorcery
Destroy target green or white creature.

Could this be a possible answer in SB for games 2 and 3?

I'm not too sure. Deathmark vs. even chain of vapor let's compare

Deathmark
Used against Oath, maybe if they don't side in SSS
Used against Fish probobly
Used most likely not against Random Aggro
Black
Sorcery Speed
Goes to the grave

Chain of Vapor
Used against well, everything. Stax, Oath, Fish, Slaver, probobly not combo.
Blue, so it can be pitched to fow, and its blue so its better
Instant Speed removal
Goes to their hand


I would rather use Chain of Vapor because it bounces, it pitches to fow, and its instant speed.

It was just a suggestion, one thing you missed though was that CoV can be REB'd, whereas Deathmark can't.

[wethepeople]

Deathmark
 
Sorcery
Destroy target green or white creature.

Could this be a possible answer in SB for games 2 and 3?

I'm not too sure. Deathmark vs. even chain of vapor let's compare

Deathmark
Used against Oath, maybe if they don't side in SSS
Used against Fish probobly
Used most likely not against Random Aggro
Black
Sorcery Speed
Goes to the grave

Chain of Vapor
Used against well, everything. Stax, Oath, Fish, Slaver, probobly not combo.
Blue, so it can be pitched to fow, and its blue so its better
Instant Speed removal
Goes to their hand


I would rather use Chain of Vapor because it bounces, it pitches to fow, and its instant speed.

It was just a suggestion, one thing you missed though was that CoV can be REB'd, whereas Deathmark can't.

True, however Oath, and just about every other deck that it is really useful against (Oath, Stax, Fish, everything but CS) doesnt run REB.

[McBain]

Ensnaring Bridge is good to stall the game v. Oath until they find Oxidize, but for one mana more, Noetic Scales will do permanent damage by returning the creatures to Oath's hand, which is the last place they want to be.

-BPK

This is a nice little piece of tech but with ancient grudge running around you need to have welder in play to use bridge effectively. With scales you cannot keep the mons goblin raiders in play were cs wants him.

[sa17dk]

Deathmark is terrible against Oath.

The only creature it hits is Razia.

[wethepeople]

Deathmark is terrible against Oath.

The only creature it hits is Razia.

Unless that is Team ICBM decides to modify their list so it is really really oldschool so it uses Spike Weaver.

[brianpk80]

This is a nice little piece of tech but with ancient grudge running around you need to have welder in play to use bridge effectively. With scales you cannot keep the mons goblin raiders in play were cs wants him.

I'm not sure if I follow you on Mons Goblin Raiders, but if you mean the Welder, you'd have to have a pretty small hand for the Scales to end up bouncing him.  Like others said, you might be better off just ignoring the Oath match unless it's heavy played in your area.  Half the time, you don't even need to do anything to beat Oath; it just fumbles on its own without first turn green enchantment + Orchard.  Duress and Annul should be fine.   

-BPK