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Author Topic: Control Slaver Vs ICBM oath  (Read 8340 times)
Hydra
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« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2006, 10:32:06 pm »

Deathmark is terrible against Oath.

The only creature it hits is Razia.

Unless that is Team ICBM decides to modify their list so it is really really oldschool so it uses Spike Weaver.

Nah, I think we'll be keeping Spikes OUT of the deck.  I must say though, I think the GWS plan of "pretend it doesn't exist and focus on beating everything else" is probably the best strategy for Control Slaver, since none of the sideboard options are really all that good post-board, since an Oath player will have some sort of answer planned out for all the standard things you could board in against them.  Best off just sticking to your normal gameplan and hope to be faster.
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« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2006, 08:59:36 am »

The guys from GWS are right, the best way is to use splash over cards like duress, ReB doesn't effect it too much bc/ ICBM oath doesnt have enough U spells to hit, I d much rather have Drain.  My favorite way to beat it is Bloodmoon & cap.  Cap is good against combo and drain decks and blood moon can catch ppl off guard in the right meta.  If you have high dragon and 5c stax matchups in your meta bloodmoon will hit enough decks to warrant its use.
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« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2006, 09:23:15 am »

The guys from GWS are right, the best way is to use splash over cards like duress, ReB doesn't effect it too much bc/ ICBM oath doesnt have enough U spells to hit, I d much rather have Drain.  My favorite way to beat it is Bloodmoon & cap.  Cap is good against combo and drain decks and blood moon can catch ppl off guard in the right meta.  If you have high dragon and 5c stax matchups in your meta bloodmoon will hit enough decks to warrant its use.

Cap seems a little too slow to me, it takes what, 6 mana to activate? It is possible to be done by turn three, maybe not two if you get atleast 4 mana sources turn one, and with that to work out it is likely that you will have no counter backup, therefore the Oath player will have a good chance to counter it. Cap also is stopped by Null Rod, which isnt good because Oath often times brings in Rod versus CS.

Blood Moon doesnt seem very good in CS because it shuts off just about your entire deck except for the six basic Islands that you can't even fetch for. I may be mistaken because I admit that I am no Control Slaver player myself, it's just this game plan doesnt seem like the best idea to me.
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« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2006, 11:24:02 am »

As I mentioned on the previous page, boarding 4x Annul and possibly bounce makes the matchup extremely lopsided in CS's favor.  I'm surprised nobody has used this tech, since it's also not bad at all against Stax.
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« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2006, 12:54:57 pm »

As I mentioned on the previous page, boarding 4x Annul and possibly bounce makes the matchup extremely lopsided in CS's favor.  I'm surprised nobody has used this tech, since it's also not bad at all against Stax.

Besides Stax and Oath, what would you bring it in against?
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« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2006, 01:18:56 pm »

While it is correct that Control Slaver will suffer badly from the matchup, running Gifts and focusing on the Gifts-style win with Control Slaver with the sideboard plan gives the best results for me.  Blood Moon is so powerful on the play it's ridiculous...but the flip side is also true.  I try to attack the control game that Oath plays, and because we're trying to beat a less-aggressive Oath build, it's going to be tough but do-able.  That said, I never dedicate more than 2 sideboard slots to Oath and I basically feel unique because out of the CS players I know most dedicate . . . 0 sideboard slots to Oath . . .

The best gameplan for the matchup is to have a cheap win condition that's do-able in your CS build such as severance, belcher or rebuild, burning wish->tendrils.  This way after losing the initial battle over the Oath you can fight a winning battle over a lethal tendrils or belcher.  Plan for this match as if the Oath player WILL resolve Oath of Druids sometime in the matchup and your understanding of the matchup will be correct.  Annul on the play is f'ing amazing against Oath...but because it will only work for half of the post-sideboard matchup and it's oath-specific hate I stick to more powerful oath-specific hate (thanks, bombardment).  I still put in a few rack and ruins for the matchup to prevent getting totally manascrewed by certain Oath builds.
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« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2006, 01:33:27 pm »

Quote
Cap seems a little too slow to me, it takes what, 6 mana to activate? It is possible to be done by turn three, maybe not two if you get atleast 4 mana sources turn one, and with that to work out it is likely that you will have no counter backup, therefore the Oath player will have a good chance to counter it. Cap also is stopped by Null Rod, which isnt good because Oath often times brings in Rod versus CS.

Blood Moon doesnt seem very good in CS because it shuts off just about your entire deck except for the six basic Islands that you can't even fetch for. I may be mistaken because I admit that I am no Control Slaver player myself, it's just this game plan doesnt seem like the best idea to me.

Cap takes 2 to activate not 6.  Only 6 if you cast it and activate it in the same turn.  Going by that reasoning mindslaver takes 10.  Cap is tinkered or welded just like slaver is.  In this matchup caps effect is usually far greater than slavers, as it is faster and potential game ending.  Bloodmoon will cripple the oath players manabase.  It will effect him way more than you.  Its a win if they didnt give you a token yet.  They have 1 rushing river and two islands (sometimes less).  Trust me when I say this bloodmoon is a very viable option if you can find the room in your sb.
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« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2006, 01:41:21 pm »

I think Jester's Cap is better than a lot of people give it credit for - it can be Welded, pitched to TFK, Tinkered for, and so on and so forth. I mean, sure it costs 6 to cast and activate, but Mindslaver costs 10...and that doesn't stop it from being the best card in the deck. Cap isn't anywhere near that power level, but it's still pretty good, especially given the proficiency with which Slaver can cheat fat artifacts into play. Oath players also probably won't expect it out of a CS board, so there's a chance that they won't bring in SSS and will just scoop the moment you activate Cap. If you can set it up so that you can Drain a Force with Cap in hand or a way to access it, you win.

Ensnaring Bridge isn't bad either, but it has to stay in play to be effective (as mentioned previously, Oxidize will likely come in from Oath), whereas they basically can't stop you from activating Cap unless they run out a Needle naming Cap or something. That would definitely qualify as an Oath-only slot (unless you're going to try and keep one card in your hand for Fish), and at the point that I'm dedicating board slots to Oath specifically, I'd rather board something better. The previously-mentioned Annul is a good choice, for instance.

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« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2006, 01:18:47 am »

Cap cost 6 to cast and use it cost 6 to thirst weld and use at least you get to spread that over 3 turns but still too slow I think bridge and bounce are the best ways to go as it cost only 3 or 4 if thirsted and welded
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« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2006, 04:59:35 pm »

Cap costs 5 to thirst and weld and it's way better against gifts than ensnaring bridge is coming out of the board.
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« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2006, 05:20:07 pm »

Why would you play Slaver in an Oath/Fish field?

Because Slaver beats up on both of those decks.

Fish is Slavers best possible match up.  And Oath and Slaver goldfish at roughly the same speed, except that Slaver is better equipped to flip the script because of its bounce spells.

I usually try and slaver lock oath in game one and then game two I bring in cards to slow them down and go to town over the course of a long game.  Usually killing them with their own Oath of Druids and a Stifle.
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« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2006, 03:52:17 am »

Cap costs 5 to thirst and weld and it's way better against gifts than ensnaring bridge is coming out of the board.

you forgot to cast your welder
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« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2006, 12:27:07 pm »

Why would you play Slaver in an Oath/Fish field?

Because Slaver beats up on both of those decks.

Fish is Slavers best possible match up.  And Oath and Slaver goldfish at roughly the same speed, except that Slaver is better equipped to flip the script because of its bounce spells.

I usually try and slaver lock oath in game one and then game two I bring in cards to slow them down and go to town over the course of a long game.  Usually killing them with their own Oath of Druids and a Stifle.

I really want to know how you take care of Oath.  I've found it a very tough matchup.  I agree with your assesment of Slaver's strength in the fish matchup.  Could you shed some light on the key plays and cards in the Oath matchup.  Also, what kind of Oath are you refering to; I'm assuming Angel Oath considering the topic name, but have you tested against Tyrant?  Also, how do you deal with SSS post board.  He presents one hell of a problem for me once he comes down.  I understand the fight will be over the Oath and it's activation but sometimes that just isn't an option.
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« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2006, 01:44:14 pm »

While I think Duress is the most realist sideboard option, I really feel like I need to mention Spell Snare. It hits all their counters AND oath AND rod. Seems better than Annul at least (in this particular matchup).

Spell Snare seems a tad dedicated though because it gets trumped by REB in the mirror and against Gifts. I'm envisioning an SB of like 3 Duress and maybe 2 REB to bring in addition to the Duresses for Gifts and the mirror.
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« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2006, 09:20:11 am »

I've actually been running 2 Ensnaring Bridge and 2 Diabolic Edict in my sideboard. While they are not useful in a LOT of matchups, I have had success with ensnaring bridge against random aggro, welderless stax, and weird stuff like Gro. I killed a hard-cast colossus at the RIW tourney in a confidant-masknought deck with diabolic edict, which can come in against fish, even though it is slightly bad because it forces you to rely on black too much (I play lotus petal as well btw). The diabolic edicts replaced pyroclasm in my sideboard because I wanted something useful against Fish AND Oath.  Gilded Drake is useful against oath because they can't grab it with their duresses. I'm not a fan of platz because it's too difficult to protect her from all of oath's bounce/artifact destruction.

I haven't tried Goblin Bombardment, but it looks promising. Since oath checks for conditions at the beginning of upkeep AND on resolution, is their any way for an oath player to get around you sacking all of the spirit tokens and oathing anyway (stack stuff a ceratin way, etc)?

Duress may just be the way to go, because it hurts so many other decks. I will be trying jester's cap again, though I think it's too slow.
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« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2006, 12:31:09 pm »

I spent some time this last weekend testing this matchup with various cards in the sideboard.  Ensaring Bridge is an allstar against the Angels and obviously garbage against Tyrant, which the Oath player was playing.  I've seen the popularity of Tyrant grow so I can't justify the Bridge to beat Oath.  I also tried out Duress and found it to be okay.  It was great at picking the Oath before it tries to come down but it required me to rely on Seas and I didn't like that considering some Oath builds run Wastelands.  I tried out Trickbind after that I found it to be great.  It was mentioned earlier that the best way to beat Oath is to go broken before they kill you.  Trickbind serves as Time Walks in this case.  It also makes the deck damn near mono blue considering the cards that I took out to replace with Trickbind.  I did whatever it took to keep the Oath from hitting the table but if it did I spent the next couple turns using Trickbind to stay alive.  While this was going on I was tutoring for Tinker and Yawg to crush them.  I really liked it and would suggest others try it out.  It's also a card to side in against Storm and Dragon.
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« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2006, 04:34:49 pm »

Cap cost 6 to cast and use it cost 6 to thirst weld and use at least you get to spread that over 3 turns but still too slow I think bridge and bounce are the best ways to go as it cost only 3 or 4 if thirsted and welded
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But the point is that even if you can split the cost across several turns, this gives them extra turns to get their combo going, since Cap only takes stuff from the deck, and Oath's pretty good at getting one creature in play by turn 3 or so. It's not a bad solution, especially for a deck with mishra's workshop, that can cast it (rather than waiting for the welder to be active, and casting thirst, and having the cap, 3 cards + 3 mana vs. 2 cards + 2 other mana). Not for slaver, I don't think.

Bridge is still the best, especially since even Oxidizing it doesn't prevent them you from Welding it back. Bridge doesn't really have that many more applications, not even really against Gifts, because you really don't want to side in THAT, even if it COULD slow the opponent down.

Pretty much anything that does something relevant to the board, or something upon entering play, can be considered against Oath. Hence, stuff like Maze of Ith in Vroman Stax.
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« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2006, 05:34:51 pm »

Duress, REB, and Cap has nothing on 4x Factory from the board.
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« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2006, 05:49:00 pm »

Duress, REB, and Cap has nothing on 4x Factory from the board.

Yes, you can use Factories to get by Oath's activation, but they can still force you to take their Spirit tokens so it is sure to be activated. You need to be able to get rid of tokens AND swing away with a non-creature creature. (if that makes any sense)
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« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2006, 06:43:26 pm »

I have been toying recently with the "extra" non-basic slot in CS. Academy is a given, but I have found library to be really sub-par in certain metagames. So, I play Library in control metas, citadel in stax metas, and mishra's factories in fish metagames. I really like factory in slaver, because it's another win condition and has come in handy. I should mention that I run crucible.... that's pretty relevant here. Anyway, I really like factory, but 4 factory's in the board is overkill. You are better off using those slots for diabolic edict if oath is such a problem. I apologize beforehand if your post was meant to be sarcastic. I thought it might be, but there was a glint of usefulness about it that made me give pause.
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« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2006, 06:56:55 pm »

Here is how you win the match up with Slaver:

You Slaver them again, and again, and then again.  And then you kill them in any way possible.  You bring in bounce and you make them pick up their Oath of Druids if they get it down quickly, and try ot counter it at some point when it is on the way down.  If they play with idiots that you can bounce, you bounce them as well.   

I would bring in Rebs, but probably not Duress because it doesn't help you if they already have an Oath down.  REB lets you force your big threats through.  Tinker, Will, Recall, Walk, Et Cetera.  I would also bring in cards to kill Chalice of the Void or Null Rod if they play those.  Slaver's Clock, as long as they don't have Chalice or Rod keeping you penned in, is faster than Oath's (believe it, its true).  Slaver is only a turn Slower than Gifts in a goldfish situation, and that is only because it plays more board control cards that allow you to actually deal with annoying permenents (the way you beat Gifts).

I board REBS, Bounce, and Artifact H8

Oath wins by having a strong Draw where it casts Oath with pitch counter back up on turn one or two.  If they don't have that you proabably win because they have given you two to three turns of Tempo to draw cards and play Mana.
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« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2006, 11:19:57 am »

I am not sure it's this simple, Brian. Slaver is the stronger overall deck, but this particular match-up comes down to a couple of simple things.

First, Oath needs one card for it to work, Oath itself. Everything else, including an Orchard, or your welder, is incidental. It has the draw, just like you do (perhaps a bit less), it has almost as much control, it has more actual board-based disruption (CotV, Rod, etc).

Secondly, it requires far less mana to function, and here, I think, it wins at. Your plan of slavering them over and over and over again requires some pretty set hands, including having a welder/thirst|tinker/moxen/lots of mana, the protection for it, and the way to deal with their disruption, or enough draw/tutors, to set yourself up for it.

Finally, slavering the Oath player might be good, or it might fizzle, depending, but in my experience, it fizzles a lot more than it does well, since it can expand itself quickly, and just dump the hand to counter you afterwards.

I think you are a bit better after SB's, due to the bounce and REB's, but of course, this could be offset by the Oath SB.

You are right on the clock being quicker, ESPECIALLY given the Tendrils kill being available, but straight-up, I don't think it's a good match-up.
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« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2006, 10:33:26 pm »

Duress, REB, and Cap has nothing on 4x Factory from the board.

Yes, you can use Factories to get by Oath's activation, but they can still force you to take their Spirit tokens so it is sure to be activated. You need to be able to get rid of tokens AND swing away with a non-creature creature. (if that makes any sense)

I made that remark from the Oath's side of the board.  We have been using Factory to great success in Oath and i've seen the trend start to pick up with some of the Stax players too.
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« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2006, 11:36:49 am »

Why does everybody always object to my game plan of "Just kill them?"  It is a perfectly viable stratagy.  Having the correct mindset going into a match makes a huge difference. 

Both decks goldfish at roughly the same speed, I think that trying to kill Oath before they can win is a really good way to win.  Make them answer your brokeness.
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« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2006, 12:09:15 pm »

@ffy: You just gave me an idea! Very Happy

*drum roll*

Would Forcefield be any use? It's cheap to drop in, and for one mana per creature (usually two at most) you have a way to stay alive.
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« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2006, 12:29:25 pm »

lolz

That is where my user name comes from!!!  WIndfall and I were boarding two Forcefields for Oath right when the deck broke.  And I held off an Akroma and a SPOTN with a Forcefield until I could Slaver lock my opponent.  I kept saying "FORCEFIELDYOU!!" it stuck.

Anyways, it isn't the greatest plan, it is slow and ties up your mana.  Not to mention it gets hosed by Null Rod, or can be easily removed.  And, it is narrow, you wouldn't want it against other decks.  Ensnaring Bridge tends to be better.  Or, honestly, if you are really concerned about the match up Spawning Pit or Goblin Bombardment are not the worst cards you could possibly bring in.

When Oath was popular before I used to play Bombardment in my board.
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