R/G Beatz - viable or not

[bebe]

The deck has been pretty relegated to the binder. People are playing U/W fish, Workshop
and combo. But does the deck have a place in today's metagame? It certainly has some
interesting weapons. Oshawa Stompy was the last of these builds relying on Survival tricks
to compete against the decks of the day. Oath spelled disaster to these builds and still
does. The deck has few answers for oath. It relies on naturalizes to slow oath down and hopes
to finish the game off before Oath recovers from mana denial and root mazes. But there
is a lot less Oath being played these days ... so ...

R/G Beatz Test List

Mana 24

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Taiga
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby 
1 Black Lotus
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures 19

4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Ohren Viper
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Genju of the Spires


Spells/Utility 18
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Root Maze
4 Naturalize
2 Choke

Sideboard 15

3 Artifact Mutation
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Null Rod 
2 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Choke

list modified as per suggestions

Strengths:
Control, Workshop, Combo   

Weaknesses:
Oath

Average:
Fish, Goblins, Dragon, Gifts, some Storm   

Some strange choices and omissions:
Hidden Gibbons - Well it is a beatstick early.
If you get a root maze and mana denial going early
with an activated Gibbons you will do well. He takes
the spot of either Rancor or Jitte. The deck
needs to beat downn fast as it has little mid
to late game play.
Null Rod out the side - Yeh. I prefer the maindeck
pyrostatics as their interplay with other the other
cards makes them quite powerful. I also do not want
to conceder to combo first game. Yes, you could
use CotV/Crucible instead. I find it more awkweard
and expensive to get into play however.
Ohren Viper - I love him. If you get him in play he
is either card advantage or a deterent. He's
a tad expensive but in testing he always proves his
worth.
No River Boas or Kird Ape - I'm nuts for sure, right?
The problem here is that Boa dies to StP right away. U/W
fish is the flavour of the month. Yes, island walk is
nice but pumpable creatures or creatures with useful
abilities are nicer. I l;ooked hard at the Ape. He is
quick and appl,ies the beats fast enough but he is not
better than my beatsticks already included and he doesn't
merit removing utility creatures.
Goblin Charbelcher - He just might be your best solution to Oath.
He allows you to randomly win games that seem unwinnable.
Is it better than Pithing Needle in the side? I'm on the fence here.
He has his uses against a lot of decks. I need to test this more.
Land Grant - I'm not a fan anymore. FoW just kills the card.
Guess what - there is lot of decks running FoW. Its just not
worth the risks. I'm not playing a quick combo deck where
it might have some merits. Don't use it.


The deck has one almost certaqin auto-loss - Oath. Against
other decks I have weapons maindeck and sideboard to shore
up its vulnerabilities. I probably could add something more
for Fish but Needles can do a good job and my creatures,
frankly, are bigger or better. 

I did a fair bit of testing with this build. If you start with
root maze on the table, a few lands and a creature you are
always in a position to compete. Resource denial and stall
is a major component of the deck. You like to see strip effects
and root maze early. The deck is designed to work around these
cards. Opening hands clogged with creatures or clogged with
land generally need to be mulliganed.   

[Metman]

I have been recently trying to brainstorm some ideas for a R/G stompy deck.  I keep coming back to the same problems that most people have concluded.  These two colors have no draw, can't counter important threats, don't bounce resolved problems, and the creatures aren't disruptive enough anymore to make a significant difference.  I really think Combo, Gifts, and Slaver kick the snot out of this deck.  Well timed bounce or creature and artifact removal opens the flood gates.  The problem with these stompy decks is that there aren't any reactive threats that Fish does so well; plus stompy's disruption isn't catch all like Fish style decks.  Gorilla Shaman won't always be an all star, same with Pillar, Bolt, Naturalize, and Root Maze.  Don't get me wrong sometimes these cards are insane bombs but all too often some of them will be dead in a number of matches.  I really think this deck needs to be a heavy metagame deck like the current fish builds are.

I feel like Mongrel is too weak when it's only strength is to dump dead cards and Rootwalla.  I like Ancient Grudge so this is a card that could be added to this list in place of a few Naturalizes; it makes Mongrel better too.  The deck needs ways to build card advantage without drawing more cards.  Flashback is probably the easiest way to do this.  I also think this deck needs to have REB in the maindeck and played in a heavy blue metagame.  Pillars are good against Tendrils decks but is it going to come down often and quick enough and be useful in more than just that matchup?  Probably not.  I would cut them and replace a couple with Tormod's Crypts.  They are more usefull in more matches.  The Rods should be maindeck too.  I haven't tested the Vipers so I can't argue for their effectiveness.  The Gibbons are big and cheap but a lot of decks will just ignore them and continue on their plan. 

I have a few completely different ideas for a deck like this but I can't post more at the moment so I will get back to this thread later because I'm interested in it.

[Metman]

If you haven’t checked out the tourney report forums on counter goblins I suggest you do.  I think this is the direction a deck like this should take for a number of reasons.  I’m not necessarily suggesting that the deck needs to run blue.  I think the red/green configuration can supplement if it’s metagamed properly.  Plus I really like the goblin creature type.  They are a tool box full of creatures that are disruptive, cheat casting costs, fast, and work very well together.  I think they can replace the stompy part of R/G stompy.

I would start by taking a standard goblin build and lean it up, keeping only the core, and using Matrons to get the right goblin at the right time.

4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Piledriver
1 Seige
2 Incinerator
2 Vandal
2 Warchief

The only gob I’m not sure about putting in there is Ringleader.  There may not be enough gobs to make it worth it’s weight, plus without Recruiter it is not as good.  It’s worth testing though.  The Warchief may or may not be necessary, I wasn’t sure but it is a core piece of the puzzle is standard goblins.

After the core start packing in metagame hate like Null Rod, REB/Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, Naturalize, Root Maze, Artifact Mutation, Pyrostatic Pillar, Tormod’s Crypt, etc.  I would defiantly start with the Blasts, Rods, and Crypts though and spin off from there.

This type of a deck is much slower than gobs but let’s face it, stompy and gobs just aren’t as fast comparatively anymore.  Don’t try to fool yourself and try to outrace anybody but fish.  You can’t outrace combo and combo/control.  I think an aggro build needs to be a bit more utility driven like recent fish builds.  It takes more than just face smashing to get the job done.  You still have a weak match up against Oath but all aggro decks do.  Don’t fight it, you will probably just weaken every other match up and still not make Oath an easy fight. 

[bebe]

I really think Combo, Gifts, and Slaver kick the snot out of this deck.

In fact slaver has a very rough go against this deck as its metagamed against it both main and side. Gifts is another story. If you can get stall pieces online early enough you have game against gifts but iots certainly not a given. I've had mixed test results against it. It requires a knowledge of wwhat is a suitable opening hand and what's not. It also brings a few answers in from the side.
Now, combo - depends which combo doesn't it? Again against some its quite good and against others, meh.

Gorilla Shaman won't always be an all star, same with Pillar, Bolt, Naturalize, and Root Maze.

None of these cards shine on their own. They are meant to work together. They are quite synergistic with the deck as a whole. The deck is a tempo deck. You disrupt your opponent whiole beating down and plying out more threats. It's creatures are bigger than Fish's creatures and Fish's sideboard is not geared for this deck. You can slow fish down alot and the deck has game against most of fishes threats.

The deck needs ways to build card advantage without drawing more cards

Absolutely. Therefore the Vipers which can help and maximum redundancy.

I feel like Mongrel is too weak when it's only strength is to dump dead cards and Rootwalla

No ... again its a matter of synergy with the deck as a whole. If I've an active Viper and a few Rootwallas, I'm liking Mongrel alot.
It is pumpable and that can be large in finishing off a game. You don't care if you have to discard a few cards from hand as the deck is quite redundant and it makes your conditional cards a good pitchable resource. You never have a truly dead card in hand.
The deck is as you say clearly a metagamed deck. I prefer pillars maindecked for Toronto. Null Rod is great but look at how many decks use them themselves. It can also be a dead card. Even some workshop decks have used Rods. I would never maindeck a few Crypts as I've no way to search them out and I have no intentions of maindecking four of them as they are more conditional then pillars. As for gibbons - a four turn kill mechanism with stall is good. They are a must deal with. I like them and they almost always prove their worth.

I like Ancient Grudge so this is a card that could be added to this list in place of a few Naturalizes

I really wanted to use this card. But it it more flexible than Naturalize or stronger out the side then artifact mutation?
It's lioke adding anger - does the deck need it? I looked for flashback and madness cards that would suit the build - just didn't find anything better than I already had.

After the core start packing in metagame hate like Null Rod, REB/Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, Naturalize, Root Maze, Artifact Mutation, Pyrostatic Pillar, Tormod’s Crypt, etc.  I would defiantly start with the Blasts, Rods, and Crypts though and spin off from there.

We essentially agree - now its just a metagame call as to what goes main and what goes side. You need plenty of hate and stall to make an aggro work. I've pretty much conceded the Oath matchup. I do think counter goblins is interesting but this build can be tweaked as well, I think. I don't think its comparable to Goblin builds and that is a topic on to itself. It has certain strengths above those of fish, btw. It also gives Fish a rough going. Four StPs are not be enough to stop the deck.

[Metman]

Another thing I've found frustrating about R/G beatz is that multiples of the hate cards usually sucks other than seeing them early in the case of Root Maze, Null Rod, and Gorilla Shaman.  They each have a purpose in the deck and can hate out an opponents strategy but drawing into multiples is frustrating and being able to pitch them to Mongrel doesn't seem worth it. 

I wasn't trying to compare this deck to fish.  I fully understand that each deck has it's own strenghts and weaknesses.  What I was trying to get at spins off the first comment I made in this post.  In heavy creature fish builds each creature is good in multiples or at least not bad.  Having multiple Shamans, Dogs, Mazes, and Rods isn't going to get the job done.  I believe an aggro style deck really needs to be utility driven. Getting multiples in a very redundent deck is going to happen and that needs to be addressed not as a weakness but as a strength like it is in Fish builds.  I can't justify Mongrel getting +1 or +2 every couple turns worth the cost of the top deck this deck is going to rely on after the first couple turns.  R/G doesn't do much drawing and it makes me believe the deck will really sputter if the first wave of threats is dealt with.

For said reasons, I suggested going the goblin/control route.  You still get the disruption and the already established goblin synergy and beatdown.  I'm not saying this is the route you should take just because I'm suggesting it.  It would be a bit more innovative and possibly more effective.  I have mulled over making R/G viable but I can't bring myself to building it and playing it with the traditional builds of the past.

[bebe]

Having multiple Shamans, Dogs, Mazes, and Rods isn't going to get the job done

Entirely true. Hopefully you will not have multiples of each because I would mull a hand like that. But having an extra couple will not be a total loss - I know that pitching them is not ideal but at least its an option. Your only draw is the Viper. But then there are decks using BoB as their sole draw that have worked. Unfortunately there are few good answers,. I don't like Wheel at all - there is no point in giving back the resources you have just denied and letting combo find answers - so redundancy is really your best option in these decks. None of creatures will kill on their own. You need to have two or three active creastures to win ( not unlike fish ).

For said reasons, I suggested going the goblin/control route.  You still get the disruption and the already established goblin synergy and beatdown.

Again, its an archtype that might have merits. I would have to test it and see how it plays out. I'm not sure its package of disruption is better than G/R though. Its search is better. At this point I'm looking at how to improve the current builds of R/G and wether or not it can compete. The top tier has consiosted largely of Storm, Workshop, Fish and Gifts of late. This deck can compete in that meta. "Mountains Win Again" looks to be terrible on paper yet has managed to win based solely on its compliment of redundant hosers - it had early draw problems as well. It answered with BoBs.

Actually if I wanted stompy with counters I would play this ...

Faerie Stompy

Mana - 20

4 Island
4 Ancient Tomb (TMP)
4 City of Traitors (EXO)
2 Faerie Conclave (ULG)
2 Seat of the Synod (MRD)
1 Mox Saphire (BETA)
1 Black Lotus (BETA)
1 Chrome Mox (MRD)
1 Sol Ring (BETA)
 
Creatures - 20

4 Serendib Efreet (AN)
4 Sea Sprite (HOM)
4 Cloud of Faeries (ULG)
4 Trinket Mage (5DN)
4 Errant Ephemeron (TS)

Pump - 7

4 Unstable Mutation (MRD)
3 Umezawa's Jitte (BOK)

Disruption - 12

4 Force of Will (ALL)
2 Misdirection (MMQ)
2 Chalice of the Void (MRD)
2 Threads of Disloyalty (BOK)
1 Tormod's Crypt (CHR)
1 Pithing Needle (SOK)

Extra - 2
1 Ancestral Recall (BETA)
1 Time Walk (BETA)

(15)
2 Threads of Disloyalty (BOK)
2 Tormod's Crypt (CHR)
2 Pithing Needle (SOK)
4 Blue Elemental Blast (4ED)
2 Misdirection (MMQ) 
3 - meta slots


- OKAY -THE FAERIE LIST IS A JOKE - PLEASE IGNORE IT ... I WANTED T SEE IF ANYONE WOULD BITE ... SRY

[Metman]

I was thinking of innovating a way to stick with R/G but use it more in a aggro/control method much like the counter goblins deck worked.  There is plenty of board control in R/G and the Blasts can serve as counters.  I just liked the goblin skeleton used in the counter gob deck that saw some success.

[brianpk80]

If draw is a problem, have you considered Sylvan Library?  It may be a little slow against combo (then again, almost everything can be) but is usually amazing v. Drains, Fish, and Stax.  When I played Sylvans, very often I would find myself in situations where life loss was mostly irrelevant and just go nuts drawing cards off that thing.  Even if life loss is an issue, since you're not running Null Rods, there might be room for a maindeck Umezawa's Jitte?  You have more than enough creatures to support Jitte and I could see dropping a Mongrel and a Rootwalla (who are seem to serve the same purposes as Jitte: clock and anti-Fish) for 2 Jittes.

Another idea might be Bazaar of Baghdad and/or Life from the Loam.  Bazaar is amazing in a hate deck running multiple redundant lock pieces because it lets you find the ones you want more quickly and dump the ones that you don't need at the moment (like Root Maze #2).  Loam fills up your hand to use Bazaar w/o disadvantage and of course makes your mana denial strategy even more miserable for the opponent.  It's also pretty good with Genesis in the late game.

I like the Vipers.  They're a good metagame call with so much Fish out there and they help green compensate for its lack of draw. 

Some rough suggestions:

-4 Lightning Bolt, + 4 Grim Lavamancer  (same purpose: damage/removal)
-1 Wild Mongrel, -1 Basking Rootwalla, +2 Umezawa's Jitte

And then some tweaking of the mana base and maybe Naturalize count to incorporate some combination of Sylvan Library, Bazaar, and Life from the Loam.   

I'm really tempted to give this deck a white splash as well.  Children of Korlis (Ancestral Recall w. every Sylvan use, painless Pyro-Pillar for you), AEther Vial (keep @ 1 = ignore counters, Root Maze, and Pillar), Weathered Wayfarer (fetch Bazaar, fill Bazaar), and Jotun Grunt (= Soldevi Digger for Strip Mine) bring a lot of synergic disruption to the table and could easily substitute their utility-clock for pure clocks like Gibbons, Mongrel, and Rootwalla.  Vial, Wayfarer, and even Birds of Paradise (-> reliable second turn Viper) are all viable methods of color-fixing in a 3-color build. 

Nice work,

-Brian

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm a bit surprised that you didn't include Granger Guildmage, Grim Lavamancer, etc.  Grim Lavamancer is often game against Fish due to the overwhelming card advantage that it can generate in that matchup.

While I respect your testing of Ohren Viper and Basking Rootwalla, I'm forced to wonder if Genju of the Spires and Choke might be interesting/good replacements.  Basking Rootwalla's upkeep of 1G basically converts to 2 damage against the opponent while GotS's upkeep of R2 basically converts to 6.  I personally believe that the Genju is a far more substantial threat.  How the additional mana investment compares to the additional damage is something I'm not sure of.

While slightly janky, Root Maze and Choke can end the game when paired and hobble an opponent individually, especially given the proportion of lands with the type Island to...well...anything else.  I strongly recommend testing Choke at least as a sideboard card.  If you think you can consistently resolve a Viper, you may be pleasantly surprised by Choke.  The decline of Stax makes the card considerably more attractive.

[bebe]

Genju and Lavamancers are definate considerations. I would definately consider replacing Rootwallas with a pair of easch and will test it out. I like Choke - I just don't know whjat to cut in the side or main to fit them in. GotS is a major threat - it really merits some thought. 

Loam/Bazaar is a completekly different deck from R/G beats. I don't see it as a good call for this type pf deck - its fits the old Oshawa Stompy though and could create a new archtype again.

so possible changes main are ...
- 4 Rootwallas
- 1 Genesis


+ 3 Genju
+ 2 Choke

I'm sure i can fit another choke in the side. I'll pass on lavamancers. I like them but I do prefer bolts in this deck. I taetsed both. Bolts will take out Fishes early threats and your opponent must always have them on his mind. I could change my opinion though ...

[Metman]

I hadn't thought of Choke, I'm not sure why.  It's a great card that handcuffs most decks in the format.  Another interesting consideration would be Carpet of Flowers, maybe as a SB card but if the deck can accelerate it's draw engine the extra mana would be most needed.  This may promote to overextending your hand and board which would be bad.  Has anybody had any more thoughts on the goblin suggestion?

[AmbivalentDuck]

I hadn't thought of Choke, I'm not sure why.  It's a great card that handcuffs most decks in the format.  Another interesting consideration would be Carpet of Flowers, maybe as a SB card but if the deck can accelerate it's draw engine the extra mana would be most needed.  This may promote to overextending your hand and board which would be bad.  Has anybody had any more thoughts on the goblin suggestion?

Goblins effectively play like a combo deck.  A very slow (FT = 3 is slow right now) combo deck whose tempo is easily disrupted by FoW, StP, or Balance.  Don't get me wrong, FCG had a god game against Stax...but I think it would suffer splash damage from Fish hate as well as be outraced by the various Tendrils decks in the format.

Carpet of Flowers is a very good mana source.  So is ESG.  The question is whether it's better than ESG as you wouldn't eat sideboard slots for it.  I'd guess that an early game boost is more important than longterm mana abundance.  I certainly wouldn't cut lands.

[GUnit]

I hadn't thought of Choke, I'm not sure why.  It's a great card that handcuffs most decks in the format.  Another interesting consideration would be Carpet of Flowers, maybe as a SB card but if the deck can accelerate it's draw engine the extra mana would be most needed.  This may promote to overextending your hand and board which would be bad.  Has anybody had any more thoughts on the goblin suggestion?

Goblins effectively play like a combo deck.  A very slow (FT = 3 is slow right now) combo deck whose tempo is easily disrupted by FoW, StP, or Balance.  Don't get me wrong, FCG had a god game against Stax...but I think it would suffer splash damage from Fish hate as well as be outraced by the various Tendrils decks in the format.

Carpet of Flowers is a very good mana source.  So is ESG.  The question is whether it's better than ESG as you wouldn't eat sideboard slots for it.  I'd guess that an early game boost is more important than longterm mana abundance.  I certainly wouldn't cut lands.

They're not talking about FCG, they're talking about red/blue countergoblins. It's very different and very much a pain in the bum to play against.

[Metman]

So, this weekend I had some time to test out a deck that I had proposed.  That is a Goblin based metagame deck packing Root Maze, Pyrostatic Pillars, Null Rods, Waste/Strip.  The conclusion I came to is that the deck runs out of gas too quickly.  Sometimes it plays a good beatdown role and sometimes I have the right hate card in the right matchup.  For example the Pillars and Null Rods were golden against Combo and Gifts but and Gempalm Incinerators were dead.  It was vice versa in the Fish matchups though.  I couldn't find a happy medium because I wanted discard outlets for the dead cards but wanted the redundancy of a metagame type of hate deck.  It's possible that the Goblin skeleton wasn't the right route to take.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm currently involved in testing Null Rod, Root Maze, and Choke together in various skeletons.  UG (using Yavimaya Coasts, Oboro, Tolarian Academy, etc) is producing interesting early results, as is the RG version. One of my friends is also testing BG, we'll see how that turns out.

They certainly pair up for amazing levels of denial.

[brianpk80]

So, this weekend I had some time to test out a deck that I had proposed.  That is a Goblin based metagame deck packing Root Maze, Pyrostatic Pillars, Null Rods, Waste/Strip.  The conclusion I came to is that the deck runs out of gas too quickly.  Sometimes it plays a good beatdown role and sometimes I have the right hate card in the right matchup.  For example the Pillars and Null Rods were golden against Combo and Gifts but and Gempalm Incinerators were dead.  It was vice versa in the Fish matchups though.  I couldn't find a happy medium because I wanted discard outlets for the dead cards but wanted the redundancy of a metagame type of hate deck.  It's possible that the Goblin skeleton wasn't the right route to take.

It appears that this is one of the strongest reasons to give it a run with Bazaar of Baghdad.  Bazaar cycles rapidly through redundant or useless hate pieces and find the silver bullets quickly.  Having some way to offset the card disadvantage factor (Wayfarer, Loam, Genesis, Oath of Ghouls, Sylvan Library, Land Tax, Confidant, Viper) makes it all the better.  The unfortunate part here is that red gives the weakest options for draw (nothing) and Bazaar needs some color splashing to work.

-BPK

[Implacable]

Hmm, I've also experimented with beats decks in the prototypical mode, but have found that most of them are too slow/inconsistent to produce winning results.  The one deck that I have done well with and I think is generally solid against the field is 10-Land Stompy, which runs 4-ofs of Root Maze, Rod, and Chalice (otherwise, it would die to combo).  It's very, very fast, particularly in getting out disruption pieces (I throw away hands that will not have at least two control cards by turn 2), and it works well in control metas, because it tears Slaver and Gifts a new one.

[Glix]

Green/Red, or mono any of the two, will usually do badly.  Now, they do have advantages in some respects.  It's strong against fish (although Grunt provides a whole new problem), and, if metagamed properlly, it can take down control.

Now for the bad:  R/G beats has no game against combo (unless they get extreemly unlucky or they suck).  You can't do anything turn 0, which means you will just randomly lose, and you can't even touch them turn 1, giving them up to 2 turns to do things unhindered.  Furthermore, at turn 2, all you have is pillar then, and they can bounce/counter it and walk all over you.  You have no game against stax either, which will just rape you all day long with spheres, tanglewires, chalices, etc.  You, in all honestly, can't deal with their huge stuff, and your componants like pillars and root mazes only help them.

There are a few things that you need to make a strong fish deck (in a general meta), and that is turn 1/0 disruption (dazes, fow, unmask, duress, etc.), and some sort of way to get card advantage late game.  R/G has NOTHING that sufices.  That's why black and, predominantly, blue are fish bases.  Those colors allow for quick disruption necessary.  That is not to say that r/g don't have benifits, but you need something more consistant and quicker, in the disruption department.

Also, sadly, white and black have the best beaters, atm, so that's not even an advantage.

Goblins is something I can get behind, because that deck, unlike the fish style deck you describle, can be beating for 20 damage by turn 2.

[Metman]

So, this weekend I had some time to test out a deck that I had proposed.  That is a Goblin based metagame deck packing Root Maze, Pyrostatic Pillars, Null Rods, Waste/Strip.  The conclusion I came to is that the deck runs out of gas too quickly.  Sometimes it plays a good beatdown role and sometimes I have the right hate card in the right matchup.  For example the Pillars and Null Rods were golden against Combo and Gifts but and Gempalm Incinerators were dead.  It was vice versa in the Fish matchups though.  I couldn't find a happy medium because I wanted discard outlets for the dead cards but wanted the redundancy of a metagame type of hate deck.  It's possible that the Goblin skeleton wasn't the right route to take.

It appears that this is one of the strongest reasons to give it a run with Bazaar of Baghdad.  Bazaar cycles rapidly through redundant or useless hate pieces and find the silver bullets quickly.  Having some way to offset the card disadvantage factor (Wayfarer, Loam, Genesis, Oath of Ghouls, Sylvan Library, Land Tax, Confidant, Viper) makes it all the better.  The unfortunate part here is that red gives the weakest options for draw (nothing) and Bazaar needs some color splashing to work.

-BPK

I can definately see testing out the Bazaar route considering the changes in the format since the Bazaar/Madness/Flashback decks were around...what 1 year or 2 ago?  I think the dredge ability with Bazaar and the new flashback cards in Time Spiral might shed some new light on the deck, plus it's an outlet for the dead cards this deck no doubt have.

[stonecold]

This is the most recent thread on this deck so I decided to post here, this is also my first post on TMD. Applause all around. I've had the most success in Vintage with R/G, I tried to switch over to Hide/Seek Fish or a variation of TMWA but the deck didn't fit well with my playing style and suffice to say I was dropping by the third round in the last two events I attended.  Now I know R/G isn't a tier 1 deck  but I enjoy the rogue factor of it and it seems to be the deck I have done the best with. So I'm going to stick with it, besides I don't plan on winning Waterbury anytime soon but I'd like to be at least competitive till the 5th round or so.
Anyway I'm looking for some new options and solutions to various problems I have enountered with the deck. Specifically the dreaded Darksteel Colossus, I have lost more games to just him than anything else. If I can't REB the Tinker then it's game over everytime!  If I can find a way to deal with Colossus than the solution could also work against Sundering Titan which is also a thorn in my side. The last time I played R/G I ran Splinter in the side. I thought it was a genius solution, problem is having 4 mana and, especially 2 green, was difficult. Not to mention FoW backup for the Colossus. It just didn't work out, it did however work great against Chalice. But it's just to expensive.
I have been looking for an option without having to splash another color and making the deck more vunerable to Wastelands. The only thing I have come up with (and this is very Janky but might be a viable solution) is Elvish Archer. I know you're saying "WTF? This guy is a moron!" but hear me out. With Root Mazes in the deck (which we all know are fantastic vs. moxes, Dragon, etc.) the Colossus or Titan come into play tapped. And then you can make them never untap again with the Archer. Yes Janky, but I haven't found another solution! Does anyone have any ideas!?

Another problem I found is people playing AROUND Hidden Gibbons. Some decks just dont seem to be threatened the 4/4. Plus with Jotun Grunt around people are more prepared for a creature that size.  What's a good replacement if any?

Thanks

[GrandpaBelcher]

You know what would be hilarious against Darksteel Guy?  Utopia Vow.  I would laugh and laugh if I saw that happen.  Unfortunately it helps their combo kill by giving them that one extra mana of any color to work with.  Your clock might be fast enough with your disruption to overcome that, though.  Also, it's not good against creatures with activated abilities.

As for people playing around the Hidden Gibbons, well, it's only a 4/4.  It's not disruptive except that it forces the opponent to speed up their kill a couple of turns, which a lot of decks don't have a problem doing.  I'm not sure what to suggest aside from something that starts as a creature (like Kird Ape) or something with more disruptive power.

[zeus-online]

Stingscourger is a decent answer to DSC....but..it does squat against an empty the warrens for 10 goblins.

/Zeus

[Cthulhu1975]

The best solution to DSC in my opinion is Goblin Welder. Artifact Mutation is also nice, and it also works great against Sundering Titan.

Another card from Planar Chaos that can take care of DSC is Dead // Gone.

Keen Sense also has potential in RG =)

All in all, I think Planar Chaos will improve RG quite a bit. Perhaps not to tier1

[keys]

I've been playing R/G Beatz for a long time and Artifact Mutation is one of the strongest cards at its disposal.  I would always play it over Naturalize in the maindeck, since Oath has lost most of its popularity (and that is a largely unwinnable matchup to begin with).  Besides Oath, there are little to no critical enchantments being played in Vintage.  You may occasionally see a Bargain, Necro, and perhaps Threads of Disloyalty from Fish, but that is it.

On the other hand, destroying a Triskelion for six 1/1 tokens, Sundering Titan for 8 tokens, or a Smokestack or Juggernaut for 4 tokens can really turn a losing game in your favor.  You can even target a DSC, without destroying it, netting 11 tokens.

Secondly, I don't think Null Rod should ever be less then a 3-of in the maindeck.  It is necessary, along with Root Maze, Gorilla Shaman, Wasteland, [and Choke/Blood Moon], to capitalize on mana disruption, which is the only reliable and effective disruption strategy this archetype has.

By the way, http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30157.msg439436#msg439436 is a thread on R/G and R/G/b Beatz I started a couple months ago.  It has some interesting discussion and I've kept the decklist up to date.

[Cthulhu1975]

We shouldn't forget Tin Street Hooligan, it's really great when it comes to destroying moxen, titans, etc. I always play 3-4 TSH in my RG builds.

So what do you guys think of Keen Sense from Planar Chaos? Will it be an auto-include in RG?

[stonecold]

Utopia vow! LOL Now that would be something crazy. Absolute genius!
But I am digging the idea of Dead/Gone. That could be a definite solution, I'll have to try it.

I just got a set of Artifact Mutations (I always played Naturalize in the side) so I'm psyched to have them at my disposal now.
I've also never been a fan of Goblin Welder in a beatdown deck, mostly because you have to tap it.
I'd rather run Gorilla Shaman, it may not destroy a DSC but it's a much better option because it can pop a few things and attack. I saw  early lists of TMWA with Goblin Vandals, would those be better than Gorilla Shaman? Curious why that was the choice over Shaman.

And I totally agree with 3 maindeck Null Rods (that's what I run, though I don't have a fourth yet) but I do seem to side them out alot. Root Maze is great too. I was running 4 when there was a large amount of Dragon abound but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. I'm thinking of cutting to three because unless I'm playing Mongrel they are useless in my hand.
Do you play any Pyroblasts or REB in the main? I always seem to need them when I have them in the side and when I play them main they are useless! Could just be coincidence.

[TopSecret]

     Goblin Vandal was in TMWA over Shaman because
he made it easier to deal with Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Stax lock pieces,
and large non-Colossus artifact dudes.

     Tin Street Hooligan seems wicked sweet,
as does the new curiosity, Keen Sense.

     Unfortunately, it looks like Empty the Warrens is catching on,
so an answer will need to be found. Perhaps Volcanic Spray?

[oneofchaos]

     Goblin Vandal was in TMWA over Shaman because
he made it easier to deal with Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Stax lock pieces,
and large non-Colossus artifact dudes.

     Tin Street Hooligan seems wicked sweet,
as does the new curiosity, Keen Sense.

     Unfortunately, it looks like Empty the Warrens is catching on,
so an answer will need to be found. Perhaps Volcanic Spray?

I believe your tech, is slice and dice

[keys]

     Goblin Vandal was in TMWA over Shaman because
he made it easier to deal with Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Stax lock pieces,
and large non-Colossus artifact dudes.

     Tin Street Hooligan seems wicked sweet,
as does the new curiosity, Keen Sense.

     Unfortunately, it looks like Empty the Warrens is catching on,
so an answer will need to be found. Perhaps Volcanic Spray?

I believe your tech, is slice and dice

Slice kills your Gorilla Shamans, though.  Simoon is another option.  It costs 1 mana less, but doesn't draw a card/uncounterable.

[stonecold]

Slice and Dice seems like a good call, yes it may pop your Gorilla Shaman but by then they should have served their purpose. But what if you're playing with River Boas, then you need the mana to Slice and Dice AND regenerate.
Is Pyrostatic Pillar not enough to stop storm based combos like Empty the Warrens?

Keen Sense looks good but would you play them over Rancor, a Rancored River Boa goes a long way. I wouldn't play both Keen Sense and Rancor. But R/G could really use that card draw.