[Deck/Primer] Dread Return Ichorid - aka Cookie Monster

[TurbulentDirge]

Ray, however, is innately better suited for the deck in every other situation involving enchantments (Oath, Animated Dead, etc) except for Leyline. Do you propose putting both Charms and Ray's in, one to deal exclusively with Leylines, the other to deal with everything else? Charm has its perks, but in those two previous matchups (Oath and Dragon) I woud much rather have the security of Ray's in the yard as opposed to requiring a Charm in the hand.
Yes, you do need two mana to deal with Leyline using Ray as opposed to the 1 from Charm, but against every other enchantment Ray is inarguably better.
So while Charm may be more effective against Leyline itself, Ray is overall the better card for the deck, and I don't find that a sacrifice worth making.

-DL

[meadbert]

Having a RAy or 2 in the board is very useful since it is an out against Moat and Night of Soul's Betrayal.  Also if ou dredge it before Planar Void comes out then it is great.

[TurbulentDirge]

Meadbert's solution on SCG seems like a viable option:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Emerald Charm
2 Ray (1 main)

And as he concludes there, for now, it's not worth it, but sooner or later, the metagame is going to adjust, and Leyline is just going to destroy this deck. This board at least attempts to combat that.
Even this solution will be easily foiled by a simple FoW, which I find to actually be good for the deck; if the deck proves to be beatable, then the talk of restricting cards integral to it will rightfully cease.

-DL

[dicemanx]

If Ichorid maintains a low enough profile (like WGD does, for instance), then the chances of seeing a Leyline will continue to be miniscule. Apart from Ichorid, Leylines are passed over in favor of Tormod's Crypts, which don't require one to play with a full set of 4 (like Leyline) and don't have the restriction of being forced to see one in the opening hand for them to be useful. Instead, what you're likely to see more of are Needle (which has answers in Grudge or Putrid Imp) and Crypt itself (handled by Grudge, but also by Needle, and CotV on the play).

For those favoring Emerald Charm, I ask this: post SB, if you have no idea what your oppponent is bringing in against you, do you *always* bring in Charm? 

I ask because if you don't, you can get caught by Leyline or (even Planar Void) which is an instant loss. I'm wondering if its not simply better to be SBing Chain of Vapors instead, since they are much more flexible and can handle a variety of threats when you're SBing blind. Not only do they handle Leyline, but they also can bounce random threats, including Drain deck's most potent threat vs Ichorid: Tinker-DSC.

[President Skroob]

I always board them in if I'm against a deck that I even suspect may harbor a Something Void in their sideboard. Emerald Charm is nice in that regard because, as has been discussed at length, it untaps Bazaar for a second go if the expected threat is not presented to destroy.

Since I loathe the rainbow lands simply because of my playstyle, I keep to a two color manabase, which means, to me, making a choice between blue and green. I played BU with maindecked Chains of Vapor and they were quite excellent at busting me out of random situations. However, I now maindeck Ancient Grudge in the slot, which busts me out of the artifact issues in many cases better than Chain does. Also, I know for a fact that there will always be a deck in my metagame, which because of my bad fortune I'll end up paired with, that has Planar Voids in it. Chain of Vaporing a Planar Void just means it will be back next turn unless I get an anti-hand solution to it, which is sometimes not easy with Planar Void on the board.

The other reason is that, though Chain answers everything, it of course has to be in your hand at the critical moment. It can stop a very early Tinkerlossus if it's in your opening hand, and I have done so with it before, but if the opposing player is merely able to wait until your hand is eliminated it's smooth sailing. The one time I wrecked a Dragon player with Chain, I had topdecked the Chain of Vapor the turn before he topdecked his Animate to combo out, and I really simply deserved to lose that game.

My feeling is that green brings on better answers to some of the hate, even if blue has a decent answer, though temporary, to almost all hate.


It's both a personal playstyle and also metagame choice, I think.

[hitman]

I have been using Chain of Vapor as a two-of in the sideboard until recently.  It works good but i switched to answers i would have more likelihood of having available (flashback cards).  It's a toss-up to me right now.  The original Meandeck sideboard seems to be the most well rounded version as far as protection.  Null Rod and Chalice can make it hard for them to develop answers fast enough for you to play a land and just bounce the Leyline.  Even though you have 4 Chain of Vapors postboard, you still eventually have to decide whether to pitch it to Bazaar or play slower and protected.  Against decks that combo quickly, it can be a hard decision.  

[meadbert]

Actually it turns out that Crypt is better than Leyline at beating Ichorid.  It is free if you draw into it.  It can be tutored for and played easily.

For meandeck Gifts one Crypt makes an incredible difference.  You can use it in Gifts piles and also Merchant Scroll and a mox becomes a turn 2 Crypt.s

Turn1 Land, Mox, Merchant Scroll->mystical
Turn 2 Upkeep Mystical for Demonic, Land , Demonic for Crypt, Crypt


Any deck that runs tutors should run 3 Leyline and a Crypt instead of 4 Leyline.  I have heard the if you want it in your oppening hand then you should run 4 argument.  The way to look at this is Crypt is also good in your oppoening hand AND you can tutor for it.

So anyway Crypt is just better than Leyline, however if you know your opponent is boarding in Null Rod, CHalice and Needle to deal with Crypt then Leyline and Planar Void are better.

A big problem with a Leyline SB is that I almost never expect it so I have already lost game 2 before I know to board it in on game 3.

[dicemanx]

Actually it turns out that Crypt is better than Leyline at beating Ichorid.  It is free if you draw into it.  It can be tutored for and played easily.

You still have a shot in stopping it with CotV for 0, and of course Pithing Needle (or hitting a Grudge in time). If you're facing Control Slaver/Stax then Welders screw up both solutions, but you in turn could SB (or main deck) Darkblasts. I don't like the chances post SB, but I view Ichorid as I view WGD: win a favorable game 1, and hope to take 1 of the remaining 2 games and hope they don't have effective SB cards against you or don't draw them in time (or hope you draw into your solutions if you have any).

Also, I know for a fact that there will always be a deck in my metagame, which because of my bad fortune I'll end up paired with, that has Planar Voids in it.

Fortunately, most metas likely won't have too many Planar Voids, since they aren't always effective like Crypt is against YawgWill (if the Void is played too late), or CS/Stax or WGD (because of the way you can stack effects).

[cssamerican]

I am convinced Wax/Wane is better than Emerald Charm. It cost the same to hit those Leylines as Emerald Charm does, but it also helps you slow play around crypts if needed. Everyone here keeps saying that charm lets you untap Bazaar and that is true; however, if it is game 2 or 3 you are likely not going to want to over extend anyway in fear of a Crypt, unless you absolutely know Crypt not going to be a factor. The secondary ability of Charm is pretty useless when fighting non-void hate for that reason, in fact I would say it tempts you into playing reckless. With Wax/Wane you can use it to suprise blockers or do a little extra damage, in my experiences so far this (Playing slower and more conservative) has been a better solution when your fighting graveyard hate.

I have two issues with Chain of Vapor. One it's a temporary solution, and two it can backfire in that in some cases getting your own Void bounced is just as bad as whatever you bounced in the first place. Still Dicemanx might be right in that you wouldn't risk boarding in the wrong card.

But all this is dependent on what build your playing. Everyone here is going to have strong opinions one way or the other depending on the build they are playing. I am playing a hybrid build that is a mixture of manaless and meandeck, so that is what my opinions ae based off. If I am not mistaken Dicemanx is playing a build very similar to the one I have been playing if not exactly the same. And I must say this is the build I am most happy with thus far.

// Lands
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        4 City of Brass
        3 Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
        4 Golgari Grave-Troll
        2 Golgari Thug
        4 Ichorid
        1 Laquatus's Champion
        3 Putrid Imp
        4 Stinkweed Imp
        3 Ashen Ghoul
        4 Nether Shadow
// Enchantments
        4 Leyline of the Void
// Spells
        4 Cabal Therapy
        2 Dread Return
        4 Unmask
// Artifacts
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Serum Powder
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
// Sideboard
SB:  3 Ancient Grudge
SB:  1 Darkblast
SB:  3 Gemstone Caverns (This would be another enchanment destruction slot if Leyline was a serious threat most likely Rays)
SB:  1 Kuro, Pitlord (Awsome in the mirror and pretty good versus other aggro decks)
SB:  3 Root Maze
SB:  4 Wax/Wane

Perhaps we should start another thread in where we discuss a putrid imp/non-sutured version. At least this way this thread will stay more on point to its original idea, and the people who's interest or more focused to the non-sutured version could better focus thier thoughts. I would even be fine with the mods seprerating this thread if they wanted to.

[President Skroob]

I'm surprised that you're advocating playing slowly and also five color. I play a slow, controlling Ichorid, and that's why I chose to give up Gemstone Mine. It doesn't go the distance for me, which is why I chose to go down to two color. Wax/Wane is a good alternative, but it requires the rainbow to be superior.

[Harlequin]

Watching how your opponent sideboards is critically important.  If my opponent takes a block of 4 cards outa the board and puts them in... then I assume LLotV, and board in 4 Charms on that assumption.  Otherwise, 2-3 emeralds are a safe bet.

For CookieMonster---
Answer to Tinker->DSC:  OMG-COOKIES!  It is SO easy to trample over DSC its silly.  
Answer to Oath->creatures: OMG-COOKIES! (unless they have tidespout or blazing archon)
Answer to Leyline: Emerald Charm
Answer to (Needle, E.bridge, idunno... force field?): ancient grudge
Answer to Moat (wtf): Dread return Devouring Strossus (who flies)
Answer to Planarvoid: Emerald Charm
Answer to "un-nessisary Emerald Charm in hand": Untap bazaar

Honestly, Tinker for Collosus is a happy time... it means they didn't tinker for Tormod's Crypt which is likely the correct play ... given the option of course.

The flaw with Chain of vapor is that you need to keep it in your hand... incase they cast Moat, or Planar Void, or Tinker.  So you slow yourself to "wait and see."  By the end of Turn 0, you'll know if Emerald Charm is a lifesaver or win-more card... but in neither case is it ever sitting in your hand waiting for it to be useful (unless you don't hit land).

Sure Ray or Rev is a good card... but what spesficially do you need to destroy with it?  Oath? Moat?? The Cookiemonster deck already has ways through and over those problems.  The major turn off Ray of Rev is that it can't touch Leyline of the Void.  

I totally agree with the statement about how Ichorid is like Dragon.  Game 1 should be in your favor.  That means you only really need to take 1 of the next 2 games.  So they need to find answers quickly two games in a row... and one of those games, you get to go first.  Loosing game 2 is common.  Tormod's crypt game 3 when your on the play ain't that bad ... chalice @ 0, duress, unmask, and to a lesser extent Therepy, are all answers to Tormod's crypt.  If you opt to run Needle in the board, then you've got that too.  

[dicemanx]

If I am not mistaken Dicemanx is playing a build very similar to the one I have been playing if not exactly the same. And I must say this is the build I am most happy with thus far.

I like this exact version thus far which I also posted on the WotC and SCG boards - it has an alternate discard and beatdown route in Putrid Imp, it runs Ashen Ghouls which also speed up the goldfish and increase the chances of getting 3 creatures in play sooner (sometimes with only Shadows and Ichorids you don't dredge into enough of them fast enough), and it has more options out of the SB given that it runs 9 mana sources main already. I also really like the prospect of being able to cast Therapies first instead of limiting myself to flashback only. Putrid Imp also offers a nice way of fighting against Tormod's Crypt, because you can retain a dredger in hand (if you hit 2 or more dredgers) while a Bazaar would clear your hand every time its used.

[Odd mutation]

Hi,

I just played a tournement with 'my' list. If you're interested in my choices and comments: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31143.0.

Greetings,

Robrecht.

[policehq]

I really do like Ray of Revelation as a one-of in the maindeck and extras in the sideboard. I'm starting to get less concerned about Leyline of the Void because Tormod's Crypt is more effective and more easily used by the opponent.

Ray of Revelation, Ancient Grudge, and Riftstone Portal have shown themselves to be really good in a lot of match-ups, but I'm not sure about Ray being in the maindeck. Ancient Grudge is good because Pithing Needle, Crucible of Worlds, Tormod's Crypt, etc. are seen in enough maindecks.

Right now, I still prefer Emerald Charm over Wax/Wane (Wane really really doesn't do much for your clock), but I'm not concerning myself with either. If I see about four or five of these lists in the next SCG or something, it might be worth it.

I'm still playing with a 'mana-less' version of the deck but with maindeck Riftstone Portals and Ancient Grudges. I am not completely bent on playing 'free' strategies, but in a strong sense Ancient Grudge might as well be, since all that needs to happen (with your game-plan on turn 0 being find Bazaar of Baghdad) is it and Riftstone Portal hitting the graveyard, then Bazaar of Baghdad can kill a Tormod's Crypt early or blow a Pithing Needle or Crucible of Worlds. The Tormod's Crypt destruction is relevant enough with Bomberman and Control Slaver + their mass amount of tutors.

My play-style with Sutured Ghoul/Dread Return decks has become very different from those with Ashen Ghoul + Putrid Imp. I rarely attack if the opponent has blockers; I'd rather have as many chances to flashback Cabal Therapy as possible, and Sutured Ghoul versus a hand cleaned of answers is all that needs to happen. Most of my turn 3's are resolving two or three Therapies and passing, then another Therapy on turn 4 to make sure they didn't draw into anything plus Dread Return for Sutured Ghoul.

To strengthen Sutured Ghoul, I think Devouring Strossus has to be played. Gigapedes and Laquatus's Champions are good for getting the power high enough, but Strossus allows you to remove less threats and get significant toughness for when it is relevant against DSC.

I've come to these conclusions about different variations of the deck:
1) Ashen Ghoul + Putrid Imp + Dread Return/Laquatus's Champion vs. Dread Return + Sutured Ghoul + Dragon Breath + Devouring Strossus can easily maintain consistent turn 4 wins. The first is more focused on attack phases and is probably slower on disruption. I haven't tested both versions against enough decks to decide which is better against certain match-ups, but as a blanket beater, Sutured Ghoul is better game 1. Discussion of the optimization of either deck from here on out would probably require two separate threads.

2) Even mana-less versions should strive to play sources of B, even if not for Ashen Ghoul and Putrid Imp. Cabal Therapy hardcast works nearly as well as Unmask at showing their hand so every flashback Cabal Therapy is stronger. Without Imps and Ghouls, your strategy is not dependent on B by any means, but it certainly does help. Your sideboard has a lot more viable options with City of Brass in the maindeck too. Duress and Darkblast can solve a lot of problems game three after a loss.

-hq

[Discozombie]

Has anyone tried using Lion's Eye Diamond?  It seems to have good synergy with the deck, enables you to dump cards out of your hand at will, and is great for casting things out of the graveyard. 

Basking rootwalla seems an interesting idea to test.  Bazzar dumps him out for free and he is good therapy/dread fodder and can even be pumped each turn to make him a 3/3 threat on the board. 

In terms of the big fat creature slots.  Verdant force vs stax/fish, Reya Dawnbringer vs control/fish.  Mortivore might be an interesting choice.  hard castable, easy to pump with dredge.  Ichorids will make him flux but who knows, he does not eat the resource that pumps him.

I would also suggest test running 15 stompy/zoo/suicide black creatures in the side and going trasformational.  They board in graveyard hate, depending on your mana base, you can bring in Savannag Lions, Jungle Lions, Skyshroud Elite, Carnophage, Sarcomancy, Flesh Reaver, to name a few. 

just my 1.269392746 cents worth. 

[meadbert]

I have been testing LED for a few days now.  This hot tech was spoiled to me by Cullen Cox.  It is very good.  Ideally you can go Bazaar, LED.  Then activate LED pitching dregers.  Then activate Bazaar and dredge for 10-12.  Then use left over mana to flash back Ancient Grudges and kill moxes.

It works very well with Grudges.

I have tested Rootwalla and I found he was not quite good enough.  He is only a 1/1.  He does not come back and you only get to use him if you get him off your first draw.  You would rather have a Rootmaze, Unmask or Leyline.

Verdant Force is pretty much strictly worse than Symbiotic Wurm which creates 7 tokens when you sac him to Therapy.

The transformation board is interesting and I have tried ideas with Basking Rootwall in particular but I always found it was easier to defend against common hate than to switch strategies.

[Prometheon]

Awesome decklist

I really dig the list, but there's a few things I find questionable.

1) 4 Unmask has recently proved to be a little much in testing. Maybe cut one for Ancestral, Crop Rotation or a flashbacker like Ancient Grudge?
2) Due to this deck's improved consistency with Putrid Imps being able to discard Dredgers, is Serum Powder neccessary? At the very least, it seems strange to only run one "big man" to animate in the form of Laquatus` Champion while running the full compliment of powders. I understand the importance of getting Bazaar, but with imps, should Brainstorm (or Careful Study) be re-examined as a way of digging for Bazaar and fueling disgusting dredges? With the 5C manabase, this would push it into a very Meandeck direction, but with Shadows and Dread Returns.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

I have been testing LED for a few days now.  This hot tech was spoiled to me by Cullen Cox.

It was actually DiscoZombie's idea that I merely relayed because SOMEBODY (Cypress Hill I'm looking in your direction) has not been too active on the Drain in some time. Sorry for any confusion.

[dicemanx]

1) 4 Unmask has recently proved to be a little much in testing. Maybe cut one for Ancestral, Crop Rotation or a flashbacker like Ancient Grudge?

You wouldn't want to max out your chances of seeing an Unmask on turn 1? It does have some nice synergy with Therapy, and increases your chance of seeing some disruption instead of relying only on goldfish speed. Plus, I'd be wary of adding mana dependent spells. Right now the count is at 6 (3 Imps 3 Ghouls), which is fine for the low mana count of 9.

2) Due to this deck's improved consistency with Putrid Imps being able to discard Dredgers, is Serum Powder neccessary? At the very least, it seems strange to only run one "big man" to animate in the form of Laquatus` Champion while running the full compliment of powders. I understand the importance of getting Bazaar, but with imps, should Brainstorm (or Careful Study) be re-examined as a way of digging for Bazaar and fueling disgusting dredges? With the 5C manabase, this would push it into a very Meandeck direction, but with Shadows and Dread Returns.

Dread Return can also bring back big Trolls.

I think the Dread Returns should be examined in the meandeck shell, although it looks like the Serum powder versions have some superiority over the Brainstorm versions - less reliance on mana dependent spells, and the fact that a Brainstorm can easily miss and lead to a loss. For instance, how often can you keep a hand with disruption, a land, and a Brainstorm (no Imp or Bazaar)? Tough call.

I like the LED idea.

[meadbert]

Regarding Unmask, I have considered cutting it entirely and have been testing Unmaskless version extensively.  There are problems.  Against combo decks in general the loss of Unmask hurts.  Unmasking Oath makes a big difference.

The biggest loss is Jotun Grunt.  I really like to be able to Unmask him and without Unmask I have to wait till I have a Therapy online (usually turn 3) so my opponent has a chance to play Grunt on turn 2.

I may end up dropping Unmask but there are definitely draw backs.  If I keep it I will use it as a 4 of since 2 is never bad as I can pitch one to the other.

[Discozombie]

My transformational sideboard would either be a beats package

4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Savannah Lions

this way you have more black cards and creatures to use with Ichorid and Unmask

or some kind of utility package

4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Goblin Welder
4 Elvish Lyrist
3 Druid Lyrist/Elvish Scrapper

One with Nothing is another interesting idea to try, similar effect to bazaar/LED.  Tolarian Winds could be brutal, but it is very mana intensive for this deck. 

[cssamerican]

My transformational sideboard would either be a beats package

4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Savannah Lions

this way you have more black cards and creatures to use with Ichorid and Unmask

or some kind of utility package

4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Goblin Welder
4 Elvish Lyrist
3 Druid Lyrist/Elvish Scrapper

The transformational sideboard is tempting to try for a couple of reasons. For one you get to swap you rainbow lands out for swamps, and you could really catch people off guard in hopes of stealing a game 2. If I were to try it I would probably start with the maindeck I posted earlier in this thread. The only changes I would make to the main would swaping the rainbow lands out for swamps and replacing the two Golgari Thug with two Spoils of the Vault.

My sideboard would be as follows:
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Spoils of the Vault
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Dark Ritual

I would most likely side out:
1 Laquatus's Champion
1 Ashen Ghoul
3 Putrid Imp
4 Nether Shadow
2 Dread Return
Depending on the game: 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Leyline of the Void

I think that with this type of strategy, you could maintain a fairly fast clock game two without needing the graveyard to do so. Yet you could still abuse if they allowed you too.

[Discozombie]

cssamerican: thanks, I have always been a fan of transformational sideboards just for the sheer mind screw it does to people.  It works how ever you do it!  If they don't know, you surprise them and steal the game.  If they know that you do then they don't know whether or not to board against your deck or to try to board against the transformation.  Its like the old days of Illusions/Donate, you board in enchantment removal and life gain, they bring in creatures. 

If you want to ditch the rainbow lands then you could always do a mono black board like this.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
3 Flesh Reaver

or even

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Sangrophage
3 Flesh Reaver

I still like the Zoo board with rainbow lands as it allows you to have more versatility.  You can bring in elements against their sideboard options but still have graveyard free options.  Gorilla Shaman, Goblin Welder, Goblin Vandal, Elvish Scrapper/Scavenger Folk these are great fast against artifacts.  Elvish Lyrist/Druid Lyrist against enchantments.  Viridian Zealot against both!  And they do not need to be in the yard first to be effective. 

3 Elvish Lyrist
3 Scavenger Folk
3 Druid Lyrist
3 Elvish Scrapper
3 Rifstone Portal

another thought would be running Avatar of woe in the main, black creature so it works with ichorid and unmask.  And with a little dredge going on it is very easy to hard cast, plus it takes out opposing creatures, and has fear, good food for ghoul

[Prometheon]

The main problem with the mono-black transformational board is that you're still using creaures to win, and thus although GY hate will be dead, creature hate will not. In decks that don't run ancient gruge, I feel like this is a mistake, as Ensnaring Bridge is likely coming in from Stax, and siding in black ceatures that aren't GY dependant isn't going to solve any problems.

[cssamerican]

The main problem with the mono-black transformational board is that you're still using creaures to win, and thus although GY hate will be dead, creature hate will not. In decks that don't run ancient gruge, I feel like this is a mistake, as Ensnaring Bridge is likely coming in from Stax, and siding in black ceatures that aren't GY dependant isn't going to solve any problems.

Ensnaring Bridge wouldn't be what I would be scared of, it can be worked around without removing it. They have to draw it, cast it, and dump thier hand before it stops your Ichorids and Ghouls. Then they have to deal with the fact that Illusionary Mask works around Ensnaring Bridge quite easily. I declare my attack with a 0/1 and hit you with a 12/12. I don't think this will work everytime removal doesn't even do that, but if I can win game one I don't think I would be too concerned about losing two games in a row to Ensnaring Bridge, it is just not that scary.

[vroman]

Ive been testing this deck thoroughly, and I dont see how you can say you have answers for leyline. its a LOT to ask for to muligan through serum powder and paris and end up w all of bazaar + mana + enchantment kill spell+they dont have counter magic or you have unmask+black card. we played the deck for about 12 hours in the past couple days strictly in sideboarded games (we assume ichorid wins game 1 every time). the rate of winning through leyline was less than 10%. the inability to realisticaly deal w leyline is a major weakness

[Sextiger]

As good as Leyline is at stomping Ichorid, it has its problems. You have to run four thus taking valuable sideboard space, if you draw one besides your opener then its almost a dead draw since you probably won't have time to cast it before Ichorid wins and a big problem I have seen is that if you mulligan trying to find the Leyline and you don't find it then your pretty much screwed since Ichorid's disruption will reduce your hand to pretty much nothing. 

It seems far more effective to just run Tormod's Crypts or other hosers instead of Leyline.

[yespuhyren]

Well if Ichorid is a large portion of your metagame, then running 4 leylines and just mulling until you hit one is NOT such a bad idea, if ichorid has such a weakness to it.  If the deck is that vulnerable, then people should take advantage of it where they can.

[meadbert]

Ive been testing this deck thoroughly, and I dont see how you can say you have answers for leyline. its a LOT to ask for to muligan through serum powder and paris and end up w all of bazaar + mana + enchantment kill spell+they dont have counter magic or you have unmask+black card. we played the deck for about 12 hours in the past couple days strictly in sideboarded games (we assume ichorid wins game 1 every time). the rate of winning through leyline was less than 10%. the inability to realisticaly deal w leyline is a major weakness

If you run 4/4 Mana and Enchantment kill then this is about what I see if your opponent has a hand of 5-6 and Leyline.  It jumps to around 20% if you run 7/7.

20% sounds bad but your opponent only has a 84% chance to mull to Leyline and some of those are 2 and 3 cards hands.

Overall 4/4 should win you about 25% of post sideboard games with a 4/4 configuaration and about 35% of post sideboard games with a 7/7 configuration.  Assuming 70% of game 1s are won this leaves you with a 35% chance of winning the match with a 4/4 configuration and ~48% with a 7/7 configuration.  I find game 1 to be higher than 70% right now but I don't run the Leyline defense in the board and I assume doing that would force me to weaken my maindeck.

I will probably not run a Leyline defense untill it starts to show up more.  At Roanoke 2 out of 50 decks ran Leyline (mine was 1) and they both were in the main deck.  If my opponent main decks Leyline I am probably losing game 1 which makes it VERY difficult to take the round by winning games two and three through Leyline.  I would rather focus on Crypt defense and write off 2 decks.  Now if 10/50 decks run Leyline then I may need to address it.

Considering the mirror makes my head hurt.

[dicemanx]

Overall 4/4 should win you about 25% of post sideboard games with a 4/4 configuaration and about 35% of post sideboard games with a 7/7 configuration.

"Win" is too strong of a word - I think you mean "maintain parity". Plus, are you keeping hands with a mana producing land and enchantment removal but no Bazaar? If not, then you're lowering your odds even more.

Consequently, I think your odds are much worse vs any deck with Leylines, especially given that you cite a very optimistic game 1 win ratio (70% is extremely high for any deck that isn't Tendrils), and that you somehow have prior knowledge that your opponent sides in Leylines (unless you plan on adding enchantment removal blind for game 2).

The good news is that Leyline isn't seen very much, and if the number of Leylines increase in the meta, there's always another way to fight against it - switch decks.