Serum Powder Ichorid and Vintage

[ErkBek]

In the past 2 months, 2 new Ichorid variants have surfaced as contenders in the format, Cookie Monster and Manaless Ichorid. Manaless ichorid probably should have made top 8 in Roanoke, but a questionable play followed by a savage Menendian brainstorm shattered that possibility.

Are these new ichorid decks really good for vintage as a whole? I've discussed this with a number of people at the last SCG and I feel that the general consenus from who I talked to is no.

While I applaud the thought and innovation that went into these decks I very much dislike the ease of playing this deck. Since there are relatively no decisions invovled with playing the deck other than what cards to name with Therapy or choose with Unmask, does this deck virtually eliminate the need for play skill in vintage? I feel that it is just a matter of time before these ichorid decks replace fish as the vintage newb's deck of choice.

What are your thoughts on the new ichorid decks? Can and will they become a contender? Have these decks set the bar too low in terms of play skill?

Discuss.

please do not spam this thread with deck list

[dicemanx]

There is still a significant amount of skill required in technically sound play (knowing the stack tricks, knowing how/when to Bazaar), playing Therapies, mulliganing correctly, or building the deck/SB correctly to anticipate hate cards in the meta. The deck does play itself to some extent, but is it any worse than something like UbaStax, which too often involves just "playing off the top"? The skill in UbaStax is more in the construction and correct metagame prediction than the play.

If its the frequency of play that might concern you, the meta would likely respond by increasing the graveyard and Bazaar hate (Needles are especially potent). Fish is a solid choice because you cannot shut it down so easily with the SB, but Ichorid has a serious issue as far as locating its defensive cards since it has no tutoring and limited draw, and it wants to be spending those draws dredging, not finding its answers. It will then struggle against any increase in hate, which will dissuade many players from choosing this deck.

[Sextiger]

Ichorid will see a spike in popularity soon not only for its ease of play but for how cheap it is to make.  Players have slacked off on graveyard removal cards for a while now and ichorid's new popularity will bring about a huge increase in these cards.  People will probably hate it out with tormod's crypts and other cards causing the deck to disappear for a while  just as dragon did a few years ago.

[ErkBek]

There is still a significant amount of skill required in technically sound play (knowing the stack tricks, knowing how/when to Bazaar), playing Therapies, mulliganing correctly, or building the deck/SB correctly to anticipate hate cards in the meta.

I don't really consider knowing when to activate Bazaar all that skillful. This matters a little more post sideboard when dealing with tormod's crypt.

playing Therapies

Again, I addressed this in my opening post. Therapy is one of the only cards in the deck that invovle some skill when playing them.

mulliganing correctly

The builders of the deck simply say "mulligan into any hand with bazaar, even if you have to go to 1." Doesn't seem to skillful to me.

building the deck/SB correctly to anticipate hate cards in the meta.

This deck more than any other has a limited amount of cards that it can run on its sideboard. Emerald Charm, Ancient Grudge, and Pithing Needle all seem to be very popular choices. A deck like this uses sideboard cards very defensively, rather than to improve matchups. I feel that building a sideboard like this is very straight forward and has limited options.

If its the frequency of play that might concern you, the meta would likely respond by increasing the graveyard and Bazaar hate (Needles are especially potent). Fish is a solid choice because you cannot shut it down so easily with the SB, but Ichorid has a serious issue as far as locating its defensive cards since it has no tutoring and limited draw, and it wants to be spending those draws dredging, not finding its answers. It will then struggle against any increase in hate, which will dissuade many players from choosing this deck.

Thanks for the response diceman. I agree that in the long run this may be the downfall of the deck, but I wouldn't dismiss this deck this quickly.

[The Atog Lord]

Ichorid is a good deck. However, the format has the tools necessary to defend itself from this deck. Leyline of the Void, alongside various other graveyard hate, will be able to keep these decks in check. That said, I am quite pleased to see a new competitive deck becoming viable. That's good for everyone, especially budget players. And on the matter of skill, some decks are more or less difficult to play than others. Building, tuning, sideboarding, and as Peter said, knowing the mechanics all prevent the deck from being brainless.

As you yourself said, a play mistake cost the deck top eight -- were the deck in fact brainless, that would not have happened. It proves itself.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

I'd like to note with the Manaless/Serum Powder Ichorid build, there is no skill in mulliganing or correct way to do so. You mulligan until your find a Bazaar or Serum Powder and get Bazaar, which seems very easy to "learn" how to do.

Playing Drains, this deck scares the crap out of me. Its popularity has not picked up yet because of a lack of people playing it and consequently no recent Top 8s, and so it has not been a problem for me yet because I rarely have play against it. Playing against [Manaless] Ichorid even once in a tournament is very frustrating for me because there is really nothing I can do to stop them and if they drop a Leyeline or Chalice of the Void on 0 it's just about impossible for me to win. The added fact that ~5% of the time the Manaless Ichorid player will mulligan to 1 without finding a Bazaar brings a randomness factor that no other deck boasts to that extent and I think takes away from the fun of magic.

In conclusion, I think the new Ichorid decks are VERY annoying to play against because they are really good at what they do and I don't understand how they haven't done better yet. I travelled to Roanoke with the deck's creator and I watched him play a lot and he really should have made top 8. He just made some very correctable mistakes and as he plays the deck more I think you will see it in more Top 8s. I don't have a problem with the decks existance and I'm willing to accept a bad game 1 that improves after boarding.

[President Skroob]

In the past 2 months, 2 new Ichorid variants have surfaced as contenders in the format, Cookie Monster and Manaless Ichorid. Manaless ichorid probably should have made top 8 in Roanoke, but a questionable play followed by a savage Menendian brainstorm shattered that possibility.

Are these new ichorid decks really good for vintage as a whole? I've discussed this with a number of people at the last SCG and I feel that the general consenus from who I talked to is no.

While I applaud the thought and innovation that went into these decks I very much dislike the ease of playing this deck. Since there are relatively no decisions invovled with playing the deck other than what cards to name with Therapy or choose with Unmask, does this deck virtually eliminate the need for play skill in vintage? I feel that it is just a matter of time before these ichorid decks replace fish as the vintage newb's deck of choice.

What are your thoughts on the new ichorid decks? Can and will they become a contender? Have these decks set the bar too low in terms of play skill?

Discuss.

please do not spam this thread with deck list

I think they can and probably will become a contender, but only long enough for people to recognize that they are a threat. Honestly, Ichorid is one of the most easily hated out decks in Vintage. Once the graveyard hate starts popping up, Ichorid starts scrambling to stay in the game. Currently, though, most people are relying on a few copies (not even a full playset in many cases) of Tormod's Crypt to turn the tide for them. While Tormod's Crypt is good, many of the Ichorid builds can ignore a single Crypt and play through it, requiring two Crypts to truly fold. With only a few copies to threaten the Ichorid player with, Tormod's Crypt isn't getting the job done. Tormod's is, in my opinion, the most harmless of what I consider to be Vintage viable graveyard hate. Planar Void and Leyline of the Void are beastly, beastly enchantments that Ichorid has a hard time dealing with and can only solve in the best scenarios, assuming that the Ichorid player is even running the answers for them. Withered Wretch is also a devastating graveyard hater, as he provides instant speed, reusable, and targeted removal at instant speed on a 2/2 body, making him very resilient to Darkblast. Against my most common test partner, him playing Ubastax, I have to just say "that's game" whenever he busts out Ensnaring Bridge with a Chalice of the Void at 2 (to stop Ancient Grudge) on the board. Besides that we could talk about Caltrops, Moat, and even to a lesser extent Engineered Plague. Basically, the answers are out there, and I'm sure that minds more enterprising than my own can easily add to this list without stressing their brains at all.

If Ichorid ever came to the point where it was in a position to be a strong contender in the metagame, it would be beaten back into submission with a vengeance.

As for the second question on play skill, I personally believe that the Serum Powder Ichorid decks are low on the play skill level. It is a deck of "If you have Bazaar, you have a good chance of winning. If you don't have Bazaar, mulligan again. If you go down to one card and don't have Bazaar, go to the next game ." After the mulligan the deck operates on autopilot and either wins or loses. I'm sure that some will argue that the choices involved in Cabal Therapy or Ancient Grudge increase interactivity, but comparatively speaking if these are the only things that require making decisions than really my point is made. I think the question that must be asked, in many cases, is "In this game that I lost, what could I have done differently to win that game?" I believe there are few cases where Serum Powder Ichorid can say, "I should have done this, but instead I did this, and it cost me the game."

[Chiz]

Ichorid is a really good deck... It's a new way to play magic.

Is it bad for the format? I don't think so... It's just that what we defined like good 2-3 months ago, maybe now it isn't... Ichorid help to a metagame shifting in my opinion, since it has really good matchup against decks that had, before, almost no bad matchup.

I play Dredge (I really don't like Ichorid as the deck's name, since it's more Dredge Than Ichorid, anyway...) since 3 months and some people followed me. The metagame here (in Québec), went from control to aggro-disruption, in part for that reason. Some people just don't like to have really little chance of winning against a named deck, so they start playing other decks.
(And Waste + lots of creatures + Crypts/Leyline sideboard isn't good news for Ichorids)

The builders of the deck simply say "mulligan into any hand with bazaar, even if you have to go to 1." Doesn't seem to skillful to me.

For manaless Ichorid, that's true. But for other builds (Especially for those with Putrid Imp) that's just don't make sense.

By the way, their is so much different builds you can come up with Ichorid, each one having strength and weakness different. I played 4 different builds of Ichorids in tournaments here and made top8 that much times... Metagaming your Ichorid deck is the most difficult part of it... I, personnaly, won't play the same build in a combo field that I would in an aggro or control one.

[dicemanx]

I don't really consider knowing when to activate Bazaar all that skillful. This matters a little more post sideboard when dealing with tormod's crypt.

When I typed this comment, I had in mind the idea that many vintage players are still working on improving their technical playskill. Given that the deck should be more popular amoung the newer players or more casual players that cannot afford the costlier archetypes, we might expect less tighter play from an Ichorid player on average. This might change, since technical skill has been improving on the whole in T1.

The builders of the deck simply say "mulligan into any hand with bazaar, even if you have to go to 1." Doesn't seem to skillful to me.

Not necessarily. For instance, you have to consider what to do with certain Serum Powder hands and whether you want to opt for a regular mulligan or a Powder "mulligan". Alternately, there might be potent disruption heavy hands that a player might consider keeping even if they don't contain a Bazaar. Lastly, the mulliganing decisions could be impacted by playing the mana version with Putrid Imps.

This deck more than any other has a limited amount of cards that it can run on its sideboard. Emerald Charm, Ancient Grudge, and Pithing Needle all seem to be very popular choices. A deck like this uses sideboard cards very defensively, rather than to improve matchups. I feel that building a sideboard like this is very straight forward and has limited options.

Perhaps the decisions are simpler relative to other archetypes, but there's still enough options out there for there to be an appreciable skill involved in construction in my opinion. The initial popular choices might seem limited, but this is a very recent approach to Ichorid, so who knows what options are best or overlooked thus far. For instance, maybe there are some crazy possibilities with some transformational SBs like adding Reanimates, or going with Masknaught.

I agree that in the long run this may be the downfall of the deck, but I wouldn't dismiss this deck this quickly.

Dismissal is a little strong of a word to attribute to my thoughts - I just think the graveyard hate will keep Ichorid at modest levels, but it would still be a potent enough deck for the few willing to play it. If the deck does explode in popularity, I know I'll be looking forward to facing it down with Gifts or WGD.

[oneofchaos]

When you look at past SCG ichorid/friggorid/dredge/manaless ichorid/cookie monster/auto pilot.dec whatever you want to call it, hasn't done extremely well (save Smennen a while back).  This is a chance that from all the new builds something will become extremely viable, the less expeirenced and competent players will stop playing the deck while the more expierenced and better players will try to fight through hate.

Just me 2 cents.

[meadbert]

I played Ichorid at Roanoke and mulliganing is a no brainer and takes no skill.

I do not think the deck can dominate because it is easily hated out.  Having an easily hated out budget deck for newbs is not terrible.

What solutions do you propose?

If Serum Powder Ichorid starts to win tournaments then I would suggest restricting Serum Powder since it actually has the most potential to be abused in other decks.  Restricting Bazaar is also an option.

[Vegeta2711]

Certainly these decks are easy to play, however they really aren't that different from a few popular archetypes we used to have. 4-Gush GAT for example, a monkey could play and win with. 4 Trinisphere.dec and the same with Affinity in T2. The only real difference is these decks would get better if the player got better, because they had a higher top skill payout (due to more decisions). In Ichorid's case, playing it at 'average' level IS like playing it optimally 95% of the time. The only true difference is the roof on skill/power ratio is lower than other dumb, but strong decks over the years.

However, if anything that's a weakness in the long run. It means if the deck is good enough to compete, when people adapt and you have to play against hate or decks choices more suited to beat it, it has little room for outside thinking or in-game strategy. it becomes more of a one-trick pony. Unless Ichorid is far and away the best deck in the format though, nothing should be done. I've never heard of a merely competitive deck getting hit for being simple to play... It has to be massively distorting or dominant as well.

Besides, what do you do to stop it?

[LotusHead]

Back in the days of Fish (PTW U/r stuff), I HATED that deck because it didn't let me play with my cards.
I didn't understand that deck.
4 Trinisphere.dec was there too, and I had similar feelings about that deck.

It seems that Ichorid (Serum Powder or no) doesn't let you play with your strategies.

Is Serum Powder bad for the format?

No.  It forces people to adapt, test, tweak and so forth.  That is good.

Anything is better than Mirroden Era Type II Affinity domination.

This is just another deck, and hardly a format warping or format stagnating deck at all.

[cssamerican]

The deck is vunerable to graveyard hate, almost every deck runs graveyard hate; therefore, the deck will never show up in top 8s in big numbers. The deck's mirror matches are pretty random, and its most difficult matches are against other budget decks, like Goblins. All this tends to make me believe it will never become a major force in the metagame, which is good for the people who play it. This should keep the amount of hate in a reasonable proportion to at least make the deck a viable choice for the diehard Ichorid player.

I think the skilless argument is nonsense though. The deck runs on auto pilot game one because most people build their deck to goldfish, so many people don't run graveyard hate in their maindeck. Is that the Ichorid player's fault? The deck is designed to evade all the common maindeck control strategies in the format, and because it does it well people feel that it might not be good for the format? If anything I think this deck shows how a format that has moved away from playing answers is vunerable. I mean I have seen it written here countless times the best answer for a problem is just to win faster. It is this optimization that has open up this hole for Ichorid to exploit. Anyway back on the topic of skill. Games 2 and 3 is where it matters. You just can't blindly dredge your deck away to have it crypted away, you will lose. It is sort of like type two match-ups between aggro and control, you can't over extend yourself and get hit by Wrath of God so you have to manage your aggression. It is here where game management skill comes in at, perhaps this lack of skill is the reason these decks haven't finished as high as you think they would.

I am just having a hard time understanding how a deck that isn't making top 8s can be bad for the format. I especially can't believe people have actually mentioned restricting cards that this deck uses? The deck hasn't done anything to warrant this kind of reaction and likely never will.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Graveyard hate isn't even a strategy against only Ichorid.  I've played Withered Wretch and sideboarded Planar Voids for a while now (before Ichorid was even a gleam in John Friggin Rizzo's eye, not to mention Menendian's) and never looked back.  They stop Goblin Welder and Yawgmoth's Will, which together make up 3/4 of the format.  Now they stop 3/1 hasty creatures and remove dredgers before they can be dredged.

Ichorid is incredibly easy to hate.  Its creatures are fragile and roll over to tons of aggro hate.  Killing its Bazaars and wiping out its mana sources stops it from doing its thing and reduces its ability to get itself out of a jam.  Graveyard hate, especially using at least two different kinds (e.g. Void and Crypts, or Withered Wretch and Leyline), wrecks it.  Now, you can even counter its Dread Returns.  Plus, it's not impossible to win faster than Ichorid with combo, even Gifts.  That's four different strategies that punch Ichorid about the head and neck.

At best, Ichorid is another Fish-like strategy of beats and light disruption.  Shame on it for making Vintage players use graveyard hate and creature kill.

[TurbulentDirge]

The deck is quite strong, although I disagree with Kobefan's appraisal of it as a newb deck. To an extent, he is correct; in game 1, the deck plays itself. In fact, game 1 is so ridiculous with this deck (considering most opponents don't have maindecked yard hate) that it feels like cheating. There are some plays to be made in game 1 that involve some experience with the deck, although I definitely wouldn't qualify that as skill. For instance, Wasteland and Strip Mine definitely slow down Ichorid in game 1, although with intelligent Therapy's, Gigapede applications, etc. you can circumvent this hatred.

Games 2 and 3 are quite different. As has been said numerous times before in this thread, graveyard hatred is ridiculous.
The manaless version, unless appropriately boarded, literally loses, literally loses, to Leyline of the Void. Emerald Charm, Ray, all that only does so much.
Even if you ignore Leyline, between unique board cards like Granite Shard, and universally played ones like Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt, the deck is really facing a lot of hatred. For those players that played Extended at this time last year, Ichorid was really dominant until people started boarding against it. It really is not that hard to ruin this deck.

As to restricting cards, that's just ridiculous.
-Bazaar is so vulnerable to hatred, and not just any hatred, hatred that any color or deck can play. Wasteland, Strip Mine, and Needle are all available for any Vintage deck to use.
-Serum Powder is a powerful card in this deck, but it certainly does not merit restriction. It is only powerful in this one deck, a deck which has a central strategy vulnerable to a wide arsenal of hatred.


Bottom line: this deck will work in Vintage the same way it worked in Extended. Lots of people will play it for a while, it will get hated to hell, and then only the dedicated people will try to play it. No restrictions are needed, the Invisible Hand of the Vintage metagame will fix itself (Adam Smith as applied to Magic).
-DL

PS
Anyone that thinks this deck should result in restrictions should read the following article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/133

Roy Spires said about Dragon

[Worldgorger] Dragon MUST receive errata; it is currently the single most important thing to the health of the T1 environment. The "infinite loops" it generates are abusable even in the sense that they let you draw the game whenever you want. A deck that abuses the most basic rules of Magic should not exist. Not to many people enjoy having 3 draws in a row followed by an unbeatable turn-1 win, which is exactly what the Dragon is capable of doing if the Dragon player chooses to do so.

Timmothy Frank replied

Dragon- As long as you don't restrict Tormod's Crypt, ANY deck can handle this combo. Also, Swords [to Plowshares] or any other instant removal works to take away all the opponent's permanents. I see Dragon as a deck that could be hated out of an environment very easily.

just replace a few card names and deck names in the above quotes. Look familiar?

[President Skroob]

There is only one person in this thread advocating card restriction, and it's really an overreaction.

Relax. Nothing is getting restricted because of this deck. Ever.

[meadbert]

I do not advocate restricting anything.  I think this deck is less broken than Dragon and just as easily hated out.

I think the main complaint is that it is easy to play this deck.  It is probably easier than drain based decks but fighting through hate in games 2/3 is actually very difficult.  I am pretty sure that had I played the deck well at Roanoke I would have done much better.  There is still an element of skill.

Also because the deck basically never wins before turn 3 it always gives its opponent a chance to do something so in that manner it is an interactive deck.

What is annoying is that it dodges counterspells and in that manner annoys blue based control.

[President Skroob]

I do not advocate restricting anything.  I think this deck is less broken than Dragon and just as easily hated out.

If Serum Powder Ichorid starts to win tournaments then I would suggest restricting Serum Powder since it actually has the most potential to be abused in other decks.  Restricting Bazaar is also an option.

Your defense would imply that you had something to defend.

Even if Ichorid did win some tournaments, restriction is far from the answer. A deck can win tournaments, that isn't a big deal. It takes much more than some victories for a deck to be distorting the format. Ichorid simply brings in a strong rock to the scissors that is the Drain archetype. Ichorid has weaknesses to certain archetypes as well, not to mention being extremely weak to tons of hate cards that are Vintage viable. If it ever rears its ugly head too much, the Vintage metagame will easily adjust and annihilate it.

[dicemanx]

Just out of curiosity, what was the error that kept the deck from making t8 at the SCG:P9 event?

I don't think the format will have to respond to Ichorid, because its not that overwhelming to begin with. It is very solid vs Drains and Stax, which is nice way of slightly weakening those archetypes for the benefit of the rest of the field.

[hitman]

I've been testing Bomberman and Slaver against Ichorid lately and both are favorable matchups against Ichorid.  Bomberman is just a brutal matchup for Ichorid.  4 Trinket Mages, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 3 Aether Spellbombs, and the Salvagers to recur anything relevant makes this match very unfavorable for Ichorid.  Slaver just sits back on a Tormod's Crypt resolves a Gifts and destroys with Crucible-Strip and recurrable Tormod's Crypts with Welders while smashing with Triskelion and pinging Ichorids.  Both decks can consistently accomplish this around a Chalice with only 1 Brainstorm and counter backup for the hand destruction when it's relevant.  After siding 4 Leylines (I run 4 Leylines in the Slaver sideboard) Ichorid's really having a hard time.

[meadbert]

I made several errors.

Error #1 was shuffling my sb into my deck and getting a game loss for it in game 1 versus Jesse.  This likely cost me top 8.

Error #2 was not boarding in Needle versus Steve playing Meandeck Gifts.  The day before I played a Meandecker who had no Crypts so that was a gamble.

Error #3 was Unmasking Merchant Scroll instead of mox when Steve's hand was Academy, Mox, Mox, Gifts, Scroll, Vamp, ?

Even if I win that game against Steve I probably lose the match because game 3 he would be on the play and have Crypts.

Even if I win the match I only get 9th.

Day 1 I also made a mistake while making a Gifts pile that might have cost me a game.

Eric might be refering to yet another mistake that I did not notice.

Bomberman is Ichorid's worst matchup.  Slaver totally depends on Crypt.  Without a maindeck Crypt Slaver is favorable.  Slaver should run Crypt over Leyline in the board.  Whatever you can accomplish with 4 Leyline you could do better with 4 Crypts. 

[Chiz]

Slaver just sits back on a Tormod's Crypt resolves a Gifts and destroys with Crucible-Strip and recurrable Tormod's Crypts with Welders while smashing with Triskelion and pinging Ichorids. 

That really depend on the Ichorid's build...  Just play with Darkblast for welders and Ancient Grudge for all artifacts you named (Including Crypt! Deciding when your opponent activated his crypt is pretty good). With those modifications, you will see that Ichorids have a good matchup against Control Slaver! I really thing Ancient Grudge is underplayed in Ichorids, I won't play less than 2 maindeck, they are always good, at worse you slow them down by destroying a Mox...
By the way, how many Crypt does slaver play maindeck (and sideboard??). If you have only 1 crypt maindeck, how could you rely on "sitting back on a Tormod's Crypt"?? You won't always have acces to your Crypt...

By the way, if you think Bomberman is a nightmare for ichorids, play against Boberman... They have all hate against Ichorids that Bomberman has + Wastelands + More creatures!! That's pretty hard... but not impossible to beat.

Telling the strengths and weakness of Ichorids is really hard, since all decklists have differents one... If you play Ancient Grudge, Slaver should be a good matchup, if you play Putrid imp + Brainstorm you will have better chance against aggro that play wastes, playing Leyline will boost your mirror matchup, etc.

[Komatteru]

I've been testing Bomberman and Slaver against Ichorid lately and both are favorable matchups against Ichorid.  Bomberman is just a brutal matchup for Ichorid.  4 Trinket Mages, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 3 Aether Spellbombs, and the Salvagers to recur anything relevant makes this match very unfavorable for Ichorid.  Slaver just sits back on a Tormod's Crypt resolves a Gifts and destroys with Crucible-Strip and recurrable Tormod's Crypts with Welders while smashing with Triskelion and pinging Ichorids.  Both decks can consistently accomplish this around a Chalice with only 1 Brainstorm and counter backup for the hand destruction when it's relevant.  After siding 4 Leylines (I run 4 Leylines in the Slaver sideboard) Ichorid's really having a hard time.

How about Salvagers itself.  A 2/4 blocks a 3/1 every turn...

[warble]

Ichorid is a good deck. However, the format has the tools necessary to defend itself from this deck. Leyline of the Void, alongside various other graveyard hate

Exactly.  The one thing I have to add to that statement is that beatdown does not have the capability to win on turn 1.  While it is possible to claim that there is "limitless disruption" in fact that is not the case.  All builds of Ichorid take multiple turns to execute their gameplan, and the specific builds you reference in the thread may be faster but are still unable to execute the ninja kills that Dragon and Combo are able to.

Ichorid plays an excellent metagamed 4x leyline of the void...if decks that played AGAINST Ichorid played the same, the matchup would not simply be in the opposing deck's favor, it would be ridiculously in their favor.  Just because you cannot clearly see the metagaming in a deck doesn't mean it isn't present, in force, with a properly metagamed sideboard.  The decks define the format, but the format also defines the decks.  If you truly feel you cannot beat Ichorid without 4 maindecked Leyline of the Void, the solution should be clear.

[TurbulentDirge]

I just played Stax on MWS with Ichorid, and in 2 post-board games, Jester showed me why I don't win those two games against that deck.

4 Bridge
4 Shard
4 Crypt
4 Chalice
3 Null Brooch
Duplicant
Triskelion
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Trinisphere
B-Ring
Crucible

And THAT, ladies and gentleman, is why Ichorid will be checked in Vintage. I won game 1 no sweat; he even killed Bazaar. Games 2 and 3 I was severely locked.

-DL

[policehq]

That's a really bad sideboard.

If everyone had to devote 12 cards in their sideboard to Ichorid, the deck wouldn't be checked by the sideboards any longer but by Wizards.

That deck would not be competitive against enough other top decks for Ichorid to be concerned.

-hq

[Moxlotus]

That's a really bad sideboard.

If everyone had to devote 12 cards in their sideboard to Ichorid, the deck wouldn't be checked by the sideboards any longer but by Wizards.

That deck would not be competitive against enough other top decks for Ichorid to be concerned.

-hq

Please attempt to read tournament reports and deck discussions by people who know Stax before making posts.  Sideboards like that are pretty close to what Vroman had for Uba Stax.  Evenpence took 13th (going 4-2) day with a side really close to that.

[emidln]

That's a really bad sideboard.

If everyone had to devote 12 cards in their sideboard to Ichorid, the deck wouldn't be checked by the sideboards any longer but by Wizards.

That deck would not be competitive against enough other top decks for Ichorid to be concerned.

-hq

Actually, those 12 cards are entirely splash hate from Fish, Oath, and the Stax mirror. Ensnaring Bridge, Granite Shard, and Crypt are all really good vs a variety of decks, it just happens that Ichorid is hosed by all of them. From testing against the manaless version, it's not that much of an auto-win though. Ancient Grudge can be devastating if played at the right time.

[policehq]

That's a really bad sideboard.

If everyone had to devote 12 cards in their sideboard to Ichorid, the deck wouldn't be checked by the sideboards any longer but by Wizards.

That deck would not be competitive against enough other top decks for Ichorid to be concerned.

-hq

Please attempt to read tournament reports and deck discussions by people who know Stax before making posts.  Sideboards like that are pretty close to what Vroman had for Uba Stax.  Evenpence took 13th (going 4-2) day with a side really close to that.

Let me re-explain because I was referring to the Vintage format with sideboard cards of one deck, and it was confusing.

I responded to this quote:

And THAT, ladies and gentleman, is why Ichorid will be checked in Vintage. I won game 1 no sweat; he even killed Bazaar. Games 2 and 3 I was severely locked.

After this list of cards was posted:

4 Bridge
4 Shard
4 Crypt
4 Chalice
3 Null Brooch
Duplicant
Triskelion
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Trinisphere
B-Ring
Crucible

"THAT" is a reference to ~30 cards in a single deck. (Given amounts of cards above 1 Dup, 1 Trike, ~3 Wasteland, 1 Strip, 1 3sphere, ~2-3 B-Ring, ~3 Crucible.

I can't possibly be the only person to think that is the kind of impact Ichorid is putting on the format. I also do not believe Vintage will ever get to the point where that is necessary because the deck is broken but not distortingly so.

Control Slaver and Bomberman do well enough with a couple of sharpshooters like Fire/Ice, Lava Dart, Swords to Plowshares, and then 1-4 Tormod's Crypt that are recurrable.

The worse match-ups against Ichorid (Fish, Stax) can adapt enough if it was necessary, but reports don't indicate that it is important to do so yet.

EDIT: Actually, a better way to address the argument presented with that Stax deck/sideboard would be to say:
Stax can do *this.*
Gifts/Long can win earlier/disrupt.
Fish can adapt their sideboard with *examples of <12 cards*.
Bomberman is a tough match-up.
Control Slaver is a tough match-up.
Ichorid is not broken thus does not call for restriction of one or two cards.

-hq