Gruntaminator

[Malhavoc]

Starting from an idea posted by MaxxMatt & kLu on TheAbyss (our italian Vintage site) I've developed this control deck created around the merchant-grunt-ancestral synergy. Really, that is just one of the best plays you can do, but not the only.

The idea to abuse the three above cards naturally went in two directions: an aggro-control deck using cards like ninja, meddling and such, and a control deck more T1T-style. The first option seemed nice at first, but I feared I was too full with second turn drops which weren't going to really shift the game. Both paths have their good and bad sides, but here I'll talk about the more control oriented decklist, which seemed better to me.

// Lands 23
    3  Island
    3  Tundra
    4  Flooded Strand
    1  Tolarian Academy
   
    1  Library of Alexandria
    2  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine

    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet   
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring   
    1  Mana Crypt
   
// Creatures 5
    1  Darksteel Colossus
    4  Jotun Grunt

// Draw 9
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Accumulated Knowledge
    4  Brainstorm
   
// Tutor 7
    4  Merchant Scroll
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2  Intuition

// Protection 11
    3  Misdirection
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
   
// Tools 5
    1  Tinker
    1  Balance
    1  Cunning Wish
    1  Time Walk
    1  Chain of Vapor


// Sideboard
SB: 1 Trickbind (owns Pitch Long, and you can tutor it easily)
SB: 3  Chalice of the Void (unsure if this or meddling is better for the combo matchup and in general)
SB: 3  Energy Flux
SB: 1  Rebuild
SB: 3  Swords to Plowshares (should be better than Vedalken or Old Man to take time against fish until you trample them with Grunt and Colossus)
SB: 1  Dominate (this is a "scrollable" tech card that I really love, but if you are more conservative you can swap it with a Orim's Chant or the fourth Chalice/StP)
SB: 1  Dismantling Blow
SB: 1  Hydroblast
SB: 1  Rushing River

The deck plays similar to a T1T in many ways, but with a tendence to resolve an ancestral in the first two turns like Gifts (keeping a high number of pitch spells makes this move safer). Compared to the the more fish-like version I've talked about in the beginning, however, it can keep drawing cards like mad thanks to 4AK + 2Intuition + 4 Merchant, while keeping UU open for Drain thanks to the highly resistant manabase.

As soon as it drops a Grunt in play, the deck really shows its brokeness: for those who may feel Grunt and AK lacking synergy, that's really not the case: putting back 1 AK and taking it out with merchant, or 2-3 AK and taking them out with Intuition are strong plays; but of course under grunt the best option i reshuffling Ancestral and Merchants in the deck, and start using AK just as pitch cards. At the point you start recurring your best drawers you can easily beat any non-aggro opponent with one or two grunts (together or one after the other) while you constantly keep in hand 2-3 counters (since you keep putting used counters, tutors and Time Walk back in the deck and you draw like mad). Against aggro decks, instead, rather than the obscene draw engine, you usually run for balance or tinker through merchant->mystical, which you try to resolve as soon as possible; grunt makes just the role of a wall in the first turns in this case, while you protect your winner (grunt and/or Colossus) with your several protections.

Talking about some particular choices: intuition is the perfect tutor in this deck, since the discarded cards are quickly put back in the deck, thus avoiding any real loss of resources; of course to maximize this you need to run at least 3 copies of cards you consider important. This way you can tutor a grunt easily when needed and put the discarded ones back in the deck for later; three misdirections can also be terribly nasty when intuitioned in response to an ancestral or a targeted removal against a creature; also intuitioning the wastelands is the perfect way to destroy a bazaar, a workshop or punching your unlucky-mana-screwed opponenent directly to the floor.

The 2+1 strip effects in particular may be swapped with one or two fetchlands and a couple of basic lands (maybe even a plains for the aggro and prison matchup), but with such a resistant mana base I feel like the strips add a very good weapon to this deck's arsenal, even if is is always hungry for as much U mana as possible.

As for the maindeck answers, chain of vapor if necessary can be used again and again (you can even bounce your own grunt to reset its upkeep cost and then copy the chain on the opponent's permanent), and balance can wipe away aggro decks for a good amount of turns, filling the graveyards with permanents and cards once in hand that are now food for the Grunt. I previosly tried to run a singleton StP, but I realized that it wasn't really useful maindeck: as a one-of, you rarely have it in hand, and not being blue you need to tutor it through mystical. However, when would you really want to use mystical to get StP?

- Against an aggro, you prefer balance/tinker (depending on the board) much more than a single StP
- Against colossus, chain is better and fetchable through a merchant directly
- Against single dangerous creatures like xantid, confidant or welder, balance is 80% of the times an acceptable answer too (welder in particular post side gets BEBed too), and even chain is not bad if you really are in a hurry

The slot once filled with StP has then been taken by a singleton Cunning Wish. If you really need it, taking StP from the sideboard with it takes some more mana, but can also achieved in the same turn; rather than for StP only, however, Cunning wish can get a good amount of cards we have in the side. Note that the side has not exactly been made with Cunning in mind: there are a good amount of blue instant rather because even one-of can be easily fetched post-side with the merchants. Cunning can also get back a removed ancestral or an AK pitched at the beginning of the game, which can now draw you some good cards.

Reguarding the sideboard, that's what I'm really testing still: there are many cards that I've considered, along with their optimal ratio (then end up deciding for those you've seen in the already posted decklist):

//COMBO
SB: 1 Trickbind
SB: 3-4  Chalice of the Void
SB: 3-4  Meddling Mage
SB: 1  Orim's Chant

//ARTIFACT
SB: 3  Energy Flux
SB: 1  Rebuild
SB: 3  Annul

//AGGRO:
SB: 3  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1  Dominate
SB: 1 Psionic Blast
SB: 2-3  Exalted Angel
SB: 3  Azorius Guildmage
SB: 3  Vedalken Shackels
SB: 3  Old Man of the Sea

// GENERIC:
SB: 1  Dismantling Blow
SB: 1  Hydroblast
SB: 1  Rushing River
SB: 3  Pithing Needle

I would really like to hear you opinions, particularly about what you consider should be the best sideboard options.

[Jacob Orlove]

As long as you're recurring cards with Grunt, have you considered Consult->Time Walk for the infinite turn engine?

[Malhavoc]

As long as you're recurring cards with Grunt, have you considered Consult->Time Walk for the infinite turn engine?

Which Consult are you talking about? From memory and from a quick card search, I've found only Demonic Consultation, but I don't think you were talking about that, since it removes the cards from the game.

When I was still deckbuilding the deck, I thought about how often I would have been able to go merchant->mystical->walk, and even thought about adding some personal tutors to get walk/tinker/balance easier. But after some testing, I've noticed that, unless I'm facing aggro, going for an obscene CA is just enough, and does not required running questionable cards like Personal Tutor in the deck: they often are just win more.

[diopter]

I'm imagining that Time Walk would be fetched somehow (probably via Scroll->Mystical), played, Grunted to the bottom, and then Demonic Consult'd back up, removing your whole library in the process, and allowing you to recur whatever is in your graveyard (including that Time Walk, once you play it!) back to the bottom of your library (which is now also the top of your library).

[Malhavoc]

I'm imagining that Time Walk would be fetched somehow (probably via Scroll->Mystical), played, Grunted to the bottom, and then Demonic Consult'd back up, removing your whole library in the process, and allowing you to recur whatever is in your graveyard (including that Time Walk, once you play it!) back to the bottom of your library (which is now also the top of your library).

..but Grunt won't accept just one card: it hungers for more and more cards turn after turn. Even if, with an empty library, deciding how putting cards on bottom means how putting cards on top, you risk to have not enough cards to put back in library (grunt dies and you are forced to draw from an empty deck). And to continue having a empty library for the next turn (in order to have walk on top) you need to put the consult back in to remove your deck again, thus thinning your cards still in the game even more the next turn, quickly heading towards an autoloss. I think I'm missing how you can really go infinite with it.

[diopter]

I would imagine having a second Grunt in your graveyard would solve the Cumulative Upkeep problem and keep your recursion going - as one Grunt dies, another is played. As for needing to find Time Walk every turn, you can recur Recall or A.K. and draw into it even if it isn't the top card of your library.

I will goldfish this sometime and see if a reliable recursion loop can be set up. I remember doing this when I dabbled with Oath of Druids->Battlefield Scrounger in Vintage... should be fun.

EDIT NOTE: In my zeal to answer the Time Walk recursion question, I forgot to mention something. I really like this deck, it seems very powerful even at first glance. One thing I noticed was the lack of a black splash -  I assume this was intentional. Was Yawgmoth's Will too dis-synergistic with Grunt to be included?

[Moxlotus]

Man, using Intuition as a blue Demonic tutor with Grunt.  That is an amazing idea.  I think this deck looks really sweet and might throw it together.

Have you tried black in the deck?  Or are there not enough slots?

[Malhavoc]

Man, using Intuition as a blue Demonic tutor with Grunt.  That is an amazing idea.  I think this deck looks really sweet and might throw it together.

Have you tried black in the deck?  Or are there not enough slots?

Have not tried, but have considered the option. Someone else has made some experiment with it. What we can get is:

- YWill: incredibly, it's almost antisynergic with the deck; with this I'm far from saying I wouldn't use it if I had black, but due to the little graveyard we are going to have, it would rarely be the classic game ending spell we know

- Demonic/Vampiric: these would probably be the best reasons to run black

- Confidant: yet another interesting card. I would probably cut out the misdirections however.. too much damage for a control deck with no combo finisher.This would also mean having less protection for casting a quick Ancestral with ease. Maybe we could need to run Duress. Note that a first turn confidant would often take the place of a first turn merchant.

- Duress: better than Misdi against combo.

- Darkblast: good way to wipe away some critters, and feeds the Grunt

However, cards like Confidant and Duress would probably shift the deck towards a totally different direction. That direction is probably the fish-like version I was talking at the beginning. You can see some decklists of that here:

http://www.theabyss.biz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20625 (mostly written in italian, apart the last posts)

...it has more creatures, but a minor draw engine - in the end, it's almost a totally different deck.


However, running black would also expose the mana base to a higher disruption. We would of course be forced to cut the strips, but that's the lesser problem: the real problem is that we are going to expose ourselves to a wasteland fetching an underground sea to cast duress/confidant. On the other hand my version can just fetch basic islands and play 90% of its cards; then you can play a Tundra to cast Grunt when necessary, and even if it gets stripped, you can just put it back with grunt and fetch it again.

[diopter]

A black splash in the maindeck would probably only be useful for Yawgmoth's Will and Demonic Tutor - anything more and you will start to cut into the deck's core. Yawg Will seems dissynergistic on paper, but I'm thinking that you have so much broken shit in the deck that Yawg Will would be worth playing - even if you removed, say, Recall and AK 4 from the game, you'd gain so much card advantage (not to mention an insane tempo boost if you Time Walked) that you can mop up afterwards with Grunt/Colossus without even needing to recur anything else. If you felt that recursion was necessary, you could still recur AK 3.

[Jacob Orlove]

I think I'm missing how you can really go infinite with it.

Well, keep in mind that you have a 4/4 in play. You only need to keep the loop up long enough to kill your opponent, not to take infinite turns.

[nataz]

Here is an example from our boards with the grunt/TW combo.

Five extra turn example, using no extra cards.

1) Turn 1, place TW, recall.
Draw TW, cast.

2) Turn 2 place Card Timewalk, Card A, B, C.
Draw recall cast -> Card A, B, C.

3) Turn three, place cards Recall, Timewalk, D, E, F, G,
Draw recall, play -> Timewalk, D, E.
Play Timewalk

Library looks like at EOT
top/
F
G

4) Turn four, place cards Recall, Timewalk, H, I, J, K, L, M.
Draw Recall, cast -> F, G, Timewalk.
Play Timewalk

Library looks like at EOT
Top

H
I
J
K
L
M

5) Turn five, place cards Recall, Timewalk, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T.
Draw H, and your library looks like
I
J
K
L
M
Recall
Timewalk
etc.

To get a 6th turn you need a tutor effect. Keep in mind you have already drawn 6 cards of your choice.

[diopter]

@ Nataz: Discrepancy between Step 3 and 4. Library at this point looks like:

// Top
F
G
Recall
Timewalk
H
I
J
K
L
M
// Bottom

But it is assumed that Recall is drawn this turn, when really, card F is drawn this turn. Not that it matters - make card F Brainstorm, Brainstorm into Recall, and go nuts on your opponent's face.

[Malhavoc]

Still, in order to combo this out, you need ancestral in your hand/graveyard already, a decent amount of cards in the graveyard, and making a risky move like milling your own deck. As milling the whole deck with oath and flashbacking krosan to ywill is risky, this too can be dangerous: a removal/bounce on the grunt in next upkeep, or a countered time walk at the beginning, and you've lost. Still it's sure viable if your opponent is lacking blockers, or you have a good removal in your hand/graveyard you can recur once or twice.

Overall, this seems an interesting option (adding Consult) if we are running black, even if you risk removing good cards in the case you are forced to cast it looking for a counterspell; but I don't think it's worth adding black just for that, given that you need a certain board position to make it a win play, and still you risk very much doing it. Still, another point to the possibility of adding black, indeed.

[Methuselahn]

I'm impressed at the work done with this idea, but have my doubts.  When we saw this interaction between Grunt and Scroll/AR/AK we thought that it was a good way to recur and abuse Ancestral.

I think this is really too slow though.  First, you have to resolve and get ancestral into the grave, 3 mana.  Then you have resolve a quick beater who's being forced into a role of producing long term card advantage, this isn't something that Jotun likes to do.  Another 2 mana.  After that, you have to get an upkeep, be able to target AR, and then lastly, draw into another Merchant or something.

It's hard for me to say that the synergy here is bad, because it isn't.  It's just too slow.  It's super efficient in the long run, but too conditional, imo.

I suppose you could use Hermit Druid and Grunt if you really want to set up infi Time Walks with Grunt.   But that is even more clumsy, despite it being more of a sure win.

[TrixR4Kidz]

This deck isn't that great, it got kinda raped when we did testing with it....  It's a COOL concept, not really a GOOD concept

Verbal warning for lack of content.
-Jacob Orlove

[Malhavoc]

As I've said at the beginning, you don't have to aim at resolving multiple ancestrals only. That was one of the things I really did not like in the fish-like version, because it did not have an alternative draw engine. Here instead you just resolve your first ancestral, and then if you want to draw more, if grunt isn't in play, you head towards intu+AK. You are going back to using ancestral again only later. The fish-like version was infact too focused on trying to resolve ancestral multiple times, having no other draw engine, and that without dropping real threats for the opponent: not a great deal. Here instead we can just play almost like an old T1T (are you saying T1T was bad?), but with an even more powerful draw engine for the mid and late game, and the possibility to refill the library with used bombs and counters. Plus, we have a nice blocker against fish for the early-mid game, until we are going to trample over him.

Don't be too greedy: recurring ancestral is NOT what you need to aim to only: against a very fast combo, for example, you could definitely going to scroll into FoW/Drain during your first turn(s), unless you are already full with protections, of course.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Everyone has of course noticed the interesting dysynergy with Grunting back your Gifts player's Ancestral.  I had considered playing something like this myself, but I'm worried that it's just the danger of Cool Things (tm). 

Definitely a fun idea, though, Intuition for Ak's multiple times seems pretty busty, and this deck breaks Scroll in half.  Interesting.

[Malhavoc]

I would be particularly interested in comments on the possible sideboard choices:

- Meddling mage could be an interesting card, particularly against combo, but I feel like chalice is far better against combo decks (it can also be set at one losing few cards: even if ancestral is among them, we can still draw with AK, and the chalice at one can harm our opponent mouch more than us). Meddling has the main problem that usually comes down on the second turn, when we would want to stay untapped to use Mana Drain, and that's not good. Plus, calice can have good use in many matchup, even against some aggro decks.

- Against aggro Vedalken doesn't seem so good, since it falls under null rod; on the other hand, Swords and Old Man seem the best choices; old man need us to tap out and being unable to cast Drain for that turn, but owns fish if it stays alive. Sword is quicker, however, and can be used in many other matchups (worldgorger dragon and oath for example), but it's not a final solution, and forces us to get in play a wastable tundra (unless we decide to run a basic plains).

- Against prison, Flux and rebuild seems the best choices. There are other good cards like Serenity or Sacred Ground, but I would prefer to stay away from 2cc spell in this mathcup, since it's the chalice which already shuts down most of the deck.

[wuaffiliate]

- Against prison, Flux and rebuild seems the best choices. There are other good cards like Serenity or Sacred Ground, but I would prefer to stay away from 2cc spell in this mathcup, since it's the chalice which already shuts down most of the deck.

I have found that flux isn't game ending in alot of situations, generally prison can power out large threats to end the game quickly, or simply use welder tricks (which in my experience has been the main reason flux isnt such a bomb). I have lost far too many games with myself playing flux turn 2-3 for it to be something i can use effectively. Sacred Ground is far superior in my testing (with an more aggressive deck using many of the same components).

Running black allows for a more reliable draw engine in dark confidant as well as more tutors to get you answers or draw much more quickly and efficiently, i believe it is worth testing more in the more controlling version, even if only for maindeck condifant, demonic, vampiric and sideboaded duress as it has been stated earlier adding too much black would change the deck completely.

[Malhavoc]

Confidant would take the place of AK probably, and this way we would probably lose the intuitions as well. And confidant & Merchant tend to get in the way one of each other when you have one colored + one colorless man. I think adding more than just duress and black tutors is not possible without losing many synergies this deck has.

According to the testings done so far, however, other than black I've come to consider red as well: not much of it, just something like:

- 3 wastelands
- 1 cunning

+ 2 Vulcanic
+ 1 Fetchland
+ 1 Fire/Ice

SB:
+ 2/3 Pyroclasm
+ 2/3 R&R

The highly tutorable F/I can resolve many problems against nasty little creatures and aggro too, and Pyroclasm becomes a good solution against fish variants too. R&R is the better solution available for the Artifact match up. In order to have a good match against combo without duress, 3/4 chalice in side are a must.

[Malhavoc]

In these last weeks I've kept testing this deck, and went very well with it, using the red splash. As I thought the black splash would surely increase the tutor/draw power, but it's something the deck is already really good at: red instead gives the needed removal power: R&R and pyroclasm above all.

This is the current list I'm playing:

// Mana
    2  Flooded Strand
    3  Polluted Delta
    2  Island
    1  Snow-Covered Island (just to fetch it and make the opponent wonder if we are using MGifts, since we run misdi too)
    3  Tundra
    2  Volcanic Island
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Tolarian Academy

    1  Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet

// Creatures
    1  Darksteel Colossus
    4  Jotun Grunt

// Tutor/Draw
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Accumulated Knowledge
    3  Brainstorm
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2  Intuition
    4  Merchant Scroll

// Protections
    4  Force of Will
    4  Mana Drain
    3  Misdirection

// Tools
    1  Balance
    1  Time Walk
    1  Tinker
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Fire/Ice
    1  Rebuild

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Rack and Ruin
SB: 3  Pyroclasm
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 3  Chalice of the Void
SB: 3  Meddling Mage

Some comments:

- Maindeck: I really like being able to intuition for 3 misdirections, but if you feel that's unnecessary, switch 1 misdi with the 4th brainstorm. The 4th brainstorm is something I miss, but I really can't find the space: maybe rebuild could be taken out in a meta without too many artifacts. Even playing a lone Fact could sometimes be useful as a drain outlet, but it isn't really necessary; however, sometimes I take a bit of mana burns if I can't merchant for intuition or such.

- Side: I added meddling mainly for the oath matchup. They can be helpful in other matchups, like TPS, but if it wasn't for Oath, I would not have put them in. Without Oath wandering around, I would opt for the 4th Calice, a Trickbind and another card (probably Rushing River). I have also considered playing some REBs, but the control matchup is already a good one.


The red spells have proven themselves to be incredibly useful, R&R above all. But also Pyroclasm have been really helpful frying some fishes. Overall, the incredible draw power of this decks often leaves your opponent speechless: I've recently played a game where I almost decked myself, playing 4 ancestrals and a couple of 4x AKs throughout the game. 

[klu]

I worked around with that list at the beginning. I didn't run the red splash, but a black one, for a few confidant, DT, VT, yWin and a tendrils and my kill was most of the time the tendrils after a bit of beatdown from my creatures.
the original list of the deck is :
// Lands
    2  Tundra
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Library of Alexandria
    3  Flooded Strand
    3  Polluted Delta
    3  Island
    2  Underground Sea
    1  Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4  Jotun Grunt
    3  Dark Confidant

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Mystical Tutor
    3  Misdirection
    4  Merchant Scroll
    1  Mox Pearl
    4  Force of Will
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    4  Mana Drain
    1  Rebuild
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Repeal
    1  Tendrils of Agony

repeal and chain of vapor + a rebuild, cause the chalice we don't wan't to face is for 2. I play fact or fiction as a fat drawer easily recursable but i think gifts would be better since it can grab utlimate without worying when they go to graveyard.