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Author Topic: Vintage Zoo  (Read 7806 times)
Eandori
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« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2006, 04:02:19 pm »

Quote
Have you considered running Watchwolf? your running both w+g and a 3/3 creature for that much could be better than most at that cost. I think the only one better would be Jotun Grunt.
Jotun Grunt can be suprisingly powerful against many decks of Vintage.  His upkeep ends up being pretty easy to pay, meaning you get a 4/4 for 1W.   He also turns off the bit Yawgmoth's will combo's, disables Dragon draw/win engine, shuts down ichorid, and removes value from every welder based build out there.

I've played quite a few Vintage games agaisnt a deck sporting main deck Grunt.  He actually changed the game state quite a bit.
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« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2006, 04:51:29 pm »

The way I see this deck developing is that it is splitering off into two different aggro decks.  One is a RWB aggro deck with Dark Confidant and Hideseek (so a bit more controling) and the other is RGW zoo, which is more agressive with less control elements.

I will bring both decks up to the forefront for discusion.  I really like silvernail's Hideseek deck.

BWR aggro
a deck proposed by Silvernail.

4 Savannah Lions
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Null Rod
4 Hide/Seek
3 Vindicate

3 on color mox
1 black lotus
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 Plateau
3 Scrubland
3 Badlands


SB:
3 REB
3 Orims Chant
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Ronom Unicorn
3 Shattering Spree

********************

Vintage Zoo
A deck proposed by Brian DeMars

GUYS (18)

4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Skyshroud Elite
2 Jungle Lion

3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, Wars Wage

BURN (8)

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fireblast
2 Shrapnal Blast

DISRUPTION (12)

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Null Rod
2 Root Maze
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Orim's Chant

WASTEEFFECTS (5)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

NON STRIP MANA (17)

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

4 Wooded Foothills

3 Plateau
3 Taigia
2 Savannah
1 Mountain

SIDEBOARD

3 REB
3 SPREE
2 REY OF REV
1 STP
2 HELIX
1 DISENCHANT
2 ORIMS CHANT
1 RULE OF LAW

*******************************

Both have obvious advantages and disadvantages.  I think that the RBW aggro deck has an advantage in the fact that it can draw more cards and control the game to some extent,  It has better midgame against decks like Oath and Gifts because it can extract their win conditions.  However, having maindeck HideSeek does very little against a quick Oath, DSC, or Tendrils.  Therefore, the question I propose is it better to have slower answers and try to fight on turns 2-4, or is it better to just smash face early and burn them out?

The Zoo lists that people have been posting try to put down some kind of a mana disruption card and then do as much damage while an opponent is trying to develop.  In this sense it is clear that both decks struggle against early bombs, since they don't have their own bombs to counteract the brokeness of decks like Gifts, Oath, and Combo.  I like both of the lists. Perhaps we could all work on developing them futher.

Is there any combination of changes we could make to either list that would help out against cards like Tinker and Oath?

I don't like the Hidden Cards from what I've seen.  They are just too situational.  It is importnant that when the deck plays a dude, it is attacking next turn.  Good idea, but just a bit too inconsistent for my personal tastes.

Once again I pose the question for the Zoo deck:  Is Rancor good?
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« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2006, 05:37:06 pm »

Because I haven't tested the BRW deck yet, I don't real feel qualified to comment on it so much.  However, I have played the Zoo deck a few dozen times now, and have played many decks like it in the past, so I'll try to go over it a bit.  The key thing to understand about Zoo is that it, regardless of format, plays three things: dudes, disruption, and damage (suck on that alliteration!).  While damage is generally a pretty easy slot to fill, because most people agree on what the best damage spells in each format are, the selection of dudes and disruption is what separates the good from the bad.  The following includes most of the playable cards in each category in Vintage:

Dudes:

Savannah Lions:  Savannah Lions in the quintessential Zoo dude.  He's fast, has two power, and only requires a single colored source to play.  Unfortunately, unlike other Zoo one-drops, he only has 1 toughness, making him vulnerable to the common creature hate that is Darkblast.  Furthermore, he requires a white to play, which is commonly the least-used color in a normal RGW build.

Isamaru, Hound of Konda:  This guy is obviously better than Savannah Lions, but is slightly inferior to Elite and Ape.  He can and should be fit in as a 1-of in most builds, making his legendary 'drawback' a non-problem.

Skyshroud Elite and Kird Ape: These guys are the bread and butter of any RGW Zoo offense.  They're 2/3s for 1 mana sans-drawback, which is bar-none the most efficient deal in the history of the game.  They should be run as four-ofs without exception.

Jotun Grunt: The only bad thing that can be said about this guy is that he costs two mana, which makes him a high-end dude in the Zoo curve indeed.  The upside is this; he's basically two of your one-drop guys glued together (quasi-card advantage is the only kind that RGW gets), and he shouldn't ever die in your upkeep if your game goes as Zoo wants it to (in other words, if your game is <5 turns).

Grim Lavamancer: This guy is excellent, but his activation cost is actually a major strain on the Zoo mana-base.  However, he does get rid of a plethora of obnoxious creatures, from Welder to Confidant, and he flat-out wins any Fish mirror.  It should be noted that his ability lacks synergy with that of Grunt.

Jungle Lions: While strictly inferior to Lions, Elite, Isamaru, and Ape, the one upside of this dude is that he can be played with a green mana, which leaves your white open for Chants, or the casting of Grunts.

Kataki, War's Wage: He's played in every U/W Fish deck worth its salt, but in a deck based off 2-power one drops and absurdly fat two-drops, this guy is strictly supbar.  If I'm tapping out on turn 2, I want a 4/4, 2 2/2s, or a Rod, period.

Disruption:

Root Maze: Argue if you want; this is the best disruption card ever printed in its color, and if you can play it, it's the best ever.  Root Maze shuts down control so hard it's not even funny, and it gives you 2 turns minimum against combo.  If you're on the play with a mana accelerant, it's also Time Walks 1-4.

Orim's Chant: An excellent card, but not one that necessitates a main-deck slot.  In my view of Zoo, the deck is designed to only play threats, and Orim's Chant simply doesn't cut the mustard as a main-deck threat.  Your biggest problem against most decks in the first game is simply preventing them from making one broken play (Tinker -> Colossus, for example), and not a series of broken plays; if they're doing that, you messed up. When used as a Time Walk, Orim's Chant isn't that good, because I'd rather be using that mana to just finish them with burn or find a way to play another disruption piece.  In the board, however, it's a good turn 1 threat against combo.

Chalice of the Void: Chalice is absolutely better than Null Rod in Zoo, because it takes 0 mana; therefore, it is the best artifact disruption piece in the deck.  Chalice adds redundancy, which is important because you want to be able to drop Disruption + Dude or Disruption + Disruption on Turn 1 to stop any planned shenanigans.

Null Rod: While I really dislike that it costs two mana, there just doesn't seem to be an option when it comes to running this.  You need disruption, and against most Type 1 decks, Rod is much more consistant disruption than Chant or Pyrostatic Pillar.  It's a house against Slaver, and you may want to play some in the board for that matchup, where Trike is a real pain to deal with.

Pyrostatic Pillar: This guy wrecks combo in combination with other disruption, and is also very good against Fish, where dropping it on turn 2/3 will result in ~6-8 easy damage.  However, it's not always optimal in all matchups (namely, Shops), so I'm still unsure on whether it should be main or side. 

Finally, a note on damage: As long as you're running at least 10 total artifacts, Shrapnel Blast > Fireblast by a mile.  Sacrificing your lands is absolutely unnacceptable in a deck that only runs ~10 real ones.

With all of the above advice in mind, here's my newly tested build of T1 RGW Zoo.dec

4 Kird Ape
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Jungle Lion
2 Savannah Lions
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Root Maze
2 Null Rod

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Shrapnel Blast

4 LoMoxen
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine

4 Tin-Street Hooligan (This guy is gold against Stax, and he's even good at taking out any equipment Fish boards in)
3 Orim's Chant
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Seal of Cleansing
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« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2006, 08:27:38 pm »

ffy - I'm the random aggro guy you wasted this summer at the RIW tournament so I don't know if my opinion is worth anything but is Chalice at 1 a problem for you?  Would Shattering Spree be better in the sideboard than Tin Street Hooligan because it takes out the Chalice.  Against Fish you can take out the Chalice past their counters and still hit the Jittes and Vials.  It hits Workshop decks really good, too.
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« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2006, 10:07:12 pm »

BWR aggro
a deck proposed by Silvernail.

Hmm...not to pick bones, but if you scroll up a couple from his post...he basically reposted the EXACT deck that I listed, and have been working on...

Anyways the Hide/Seek version has been really pulling decent results for me. I'm still tinkering with the SB, but the maindeck is pretty set for now. I'm also not a fan of Vindicate...it's too slow, and it takes up unecessary space. Between Hide, Bolt, and StP, you have ENOUGH removal for the deck, and all at the right speed.

Also, Kataki is a GREAT addition as a two-drop, and really helps add to the artifact hate. He's well worth the three spots in the deck.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 10:12:24 pm by Mith » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2006, 05:19:58 am »

If you did I apologize for not giving you proper credit.  Silvernai's was the last list posted, and it looked like a pretty solid representation of the archetype overall.

@ hitman:  I agree with you that Spree is a better board card for this archetype;  and I do have them in the list's sideboard!
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2006, 10:30:15 am »

@FFY
I'm not a fan of Rancor simply because the trample and returning to hand will be irrelevant in almost all of your matchups.  It's a 2/0 with haste for G that doesn't die so long as you have a creature in play.  The problem with that is that you'll be cutting creature density to play it.

@Implacable
That build looks solid.  The sideboard seems too focussed on Stax, though.

@Silvernail
Here's what I've been testing for a few months and it's put up solid results.  Most recently beating Methuselahn playing Gifts.  I cite that mainly because most people assume it will have problems with Gifts after they see the list.

3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine   
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Mountain
2 Plateau   
3 City of Brass
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Black Lotus   
1 Mox Jet   
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl   
1 Lotus Petal

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Jotun Grunt   
3 True Believer   

4 Hide/Seek   
4 Duress   
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Pyrostatic Pillar   
1 Null Rod      
1 Sword of Fire and Ice   
1 Red Elemental Blast

4 Magma Jet
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

SB
4 Leyline of the Void   
2 Rack and Ruin   
4 Swords to Plowshares   
3 Red Elemental Blast   
2 Ronom Unicorn   

Explainations of maindeck choices:
The mana-base is oriented towards stability; I use 3 different colors about equally and that's simply more painful without City of Brass than with it.  None of my choices are terribly unusual in light of TMWA other than Sword of Fire and Ice (SoFI) and not running Mishra's Factory.  I run the Sword of Fire and Ice against Fish/Scrub metagames and as a secondary draw engine that's significantly better than most expect.  Mishra's Factory is omitted as I found them lackluster during testing as this build is far more controlling (you almost *always* play the control role, even against Gifts/Stax).
« Last Edit: December 16, 2006, 10:40:14 am by AmbivalentDuck » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2006, 11:34:55 am »

The problem with True Believer is that he sits there waiting to get bounced right before your opponent goes off. I can't stress enough how good Kataki is to slow down your opponent...he really deserves the three maindeck spots.

StP is a must-have as well. The only removal I'd consider dropping is lightning bolt. While the've been amazingly versatile in testing, they can be dead draws in many situations. Still, throwing three at your opponent's head to finish them off is always a nice finish Smile I'll have to look more into Magma Jet...I'm not sure yet how much the utility will outweigh the drop in speed.
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2006, 04:03:21 pm »

Duck, why no Demonic Tutor?  If you can fit in a situational piece like ET, DT seems like a given.
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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2006, 04:00:14 pm »

I've been tempted to run Vamp and Demonic tutor and a few silver bullets, but that would probably require dropping the bolts and more. I'm not sure yet what's the best move there...the deck runs pretty stream-lined with 3-4 of each key card and the confidants to speed your draws. I'll try making room for the tutors, but I'm still skeptical as to how worthwhile they'll be. At the end of the day, this is still a zoo deck...even if it's developed a bit of a control edge. As such, I'd rather not sacrifice speed and dependibility unless necessary.
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« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2006, 04:24:06 pm »

If you're gonna go the RWB route, why not look at TMWA? It _IS_ RWB, and has multiple tournaments behind it, as well has a 1 1/2 year development. On our team boards, we've got thousands of posts, and other development notes on it.
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« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2006, 12:40:05 am »

@Implacable
It may currently be an omission.  Overall, one mana >> two mana in this deck.  Casting Demonic Tutor way well cost a full turn's tempo.  Also, ET and VT allow you to see what your opponent has played.  I'll try testing it again.  It hasn't been in the deck for a month or two and a lot has changed since then.  It's probably time to test it again.

@Suggestions involving TMWA
I've played both and I feel that this is the better deck.  Pre-Coldsnap, I'm would have been 100% sure that this deck's predecessor was the better of the two.  Right now, I'm not as sure.  As far as tourney-provenness, I'm not in the slightest bit concerned about that.  I've been playing this concept for years, but this current iteration (within a 6 cards) is much more recent.  Pre-Coldsnap, I ran Jagged Poppet.  With many/most aggro decks now running Jotun Grunt, 3/4 isn't quite the fat it used to be and that changed literally everything about my ability to maindeck Poppet.
   
I actually have some of the emails I exchanged with the person who holds the actual "MyriadGames" account here on TMD.  The inclusion of Confidant and Hide//Seek was actually influenced by a run-in he had with this deck's predecessor.

@True Believer
Gifts Ungiven.  Who cares about Tendrils?  By the time they can get storm(10), they can bounce it, sure.  But stopping them from resolving Intuition and Gifts is more than mildly useful.  Kataki shouldn't affect a good Gifts or Tendrils player.  True Believer is a critical speed-bump.  Kataki vs. True Believer is a metagame call, currently, I favor the Believers.
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« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2006, 11:26:33 am »

So you might say that you "believe that believers" are the way to go?

I agree true believer is an extremely powerful card in certain match ups.  Against Gifts he is the stones.  However, the main problem I have with believer is that without Aether Vial it is impossible to reliably be able to cast him on time, not to mention since he is so clunky he is likely to get hit by a counterspell and give an opponent Drain Mana.  One of the big bonuses of playing a bunch of one drop idiots is that even if your opponent hits a spell with a Drain he is only going to get one mana, which most likely will not power up a Mindslaver, giant robot et cetera.

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