[Deck] - The Revolver - Combo/Control - U/B

[hauntedechos]

I was told to move this post to it's own thread.  It's an idea I've been working on, a deck concept that can incorporate a few win conditions.  These win conditions are based on one engine but achive a)decking your oponent b)infinate life and c)infinate damage. With the banning of Diciple Of The Vault, I was forced to use Tendrils as the damage win condition.  It first made use of W and a limited splash R for Burning Wish to get SB bullets in Sorcery form.  I've streamlined it to U/B and used the additional W/R slots to bolster the controll elements.  This also allowed me to stabilize the mana base.  I've been able to run 18 lands without even a hint of mana screw or lack of mana.  Of course I want at least 20 in relation to Fish mana denial concepts and 6 of ea. basic to play around Wastelands.  I focus on Fish so mush because Fish and Oath are my Meta, as you will read on in the latter of this post.

Weakness:  3 pieces to go off & protecting the combo against FoW & Drains & WipeAway.(other artifact bounce/removal is a concern as well I know)

without further delay, I give to you  The Revolver. A bad Tendrils build by Mike Samson (Me)


combo pieces:
x4 Myr Retriver
x3 Ashnods Alter ( chosen over KCI because of the 1cc difference, in spite of KCI utilizing all artifacts)
x4 Tendrils (Brainfreeze , Leonin Elder are the sidable choices unless you decide to go one route and save SB slots for utility/answers)

Control:
x4 FOW
x4Mana Drain
x1Echoing Truth
x1WipeAway
x4Duress


Utility:
x1Ancestral Recall
x1TimeWalk
x1Demonic Tutor
x1Vampiric Tutor
x1Mystical Tutor
X1Merchant Scroll
x4 Brainstorm
x1MisD


Mana Acceleration:
X1Mox Saph
x1Mox Jet
xManaVault
X1B.Lotus

ManaBase:
x6Island
x6Swamp
X4UndergroundSea
x4PollutedDelta


SB:
x2Tormods crypt
x1CoffinPurge
x1Rebuild
x1Tinker
x1SSS
The rest has not been settled on or even seriously worked on because of the testing I'm currently trying to accomplish with the MD.


Of course this is another drain deck that wants to combo out as fast as possible.  It utilizes HEAVY control elements as I'm a paranoid player when it comes to the playing of combo. 

The control element:

x4 Duress - I've seen it said time and time again, that Duress is a pro-active counter.  I've used it time and time again as such, and I cannot say enough how much it makes me giggle to force out a players force or drain in responce to a Duress.

x4FoW- No comment
X4Drains- No Comment
x1Echoing Truth/x1Wipe Away - I play in an Oath / Fish heavy Environment. As such if I'm not playing Fish myself, I don't like Chalice hitting play.

The Draw element:

why all the damn tutors?  well I value tutor power as much as I value Brainstorms hide and seek ablility.  Also, because of the combo concept, I need between 7-9 copies of the pieces to give it some solidiy.  In fact I recently cut Entomb as a Myr Tutor.   Reasoning was because I thought in eary game I'd rather spend B to Duress and disrupt the hand rather than send a Myr to G/Y early, and therefore open it up to the CoffinPurge / Tormod's Treatment, thus causing me to have to draw into / spend another tutor on another Myr


So whats next?:

More tourny play of course.  Further development from feed back from great minds at work here on TMD.  Looking into the possibility of re-introducing W.  Seal Of CLeansing for the Oath and Fish Match ups seems very solid.  As well Balance seems to be calling me again, due to the fact that little hits the board on my end.  My concern with Balance is the fact that in Control matches I'll be "mind twisting" my hand in some situations.

In the Oath match-up:

 i've found that the heavy control / permission play almost kept the Oath player from ever doing anything constructve.  With no real drain targets, I fall back on the Duress / FOW / Echoing Truth.  (as a side note, this deck used to run W with red being a splash for Burning Wish and the SB silver bullets.  This gave me access to Balance, StP and Seal Of Cleansing - any comments on that would be greatly appreciated).  Of course DSC is a non-issue because the worst place for him is in the Oath players hand.  As for SSS, I haven't yet had to play against that.

In the Fish Match-up:

 I've found that the control elements allow me to play around the disruption of Fish in most of it's incarnations.  WTF giving me the most trouble as it is quite capable of pumping it's beaters in a race and the lack of StP and Pyroclasm(though they can pump around this).  The bounce in the deck allows me to get around the Chalice issue. and Rootwater is a must counter/deal with issue as I'm a Combo Player.  Again Duress when on the play allows me to "fish" out the vial/chalice issue. If it hits, the mid game bounce /his FOW /my Drain and go off makes me feel a little more confident in the match-up as well.  But of course nothing is ever THAT easy ALL of the time.

The majority of the rest of the decks are rogue, and a few people trying to play Sui-HD decks.  I had a player trying to work Squirrels Nest in a tourny last year, which was funny.  Though not as funny as the guy who ran Tooth n Nail   The local environment I play in is worse still with Elf Decks and Goblins around and random budget aggro attemps.  You may recall that I am the poster of the U/W Vial Chalice fish that runs un-powered.  This deck is a 10 proxy environment deck, as you all may know I own no power and the drains are borrowed.

well thats the idea guys, have fun with it, rip it to shreds and put it down as long as there is something of substance in the reply's that allow me to build on this idea.

Thanks
Haunted.

[Harlequin]

Here is a mono-blue version the deck I was toying around with.  If your not afraid of too much Null Rod / Energy Flux action I would go with something like this:

Tagteam Muter Combo---

Artifact mana:
5 Moxen
5 Lotus, Petal, Vault, Crypt, Sol

Blue Lands:
1 Tolarian Acad
6 Island
4 Blue Fetchlands

Search/Draw/selection:
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Tinker
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Memory Jar
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire

"Slow" Accellerants:
3 Ashnod's Alter
3 Metalworker

Creatures/Combo/winconditions
4 Myr Retriver
3 Cathodin (or SuiChi but w/o shops I like Cathodin myself)
1 Duplicant
1 Arcbound Crusher* / Lightning Coils / Loadstone Myr
1 Staff of domination


Protection:
4 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor

-----------
There are essentially 2 Main combos:
x2 Myr Retriver + Alter + (Coil, Crusher, Loadstone)
or
Metalwork + Staff of Domination + 3 artifacts in hand

Myr Combo you understand
-- Lightning Coils means you need to take another turn (but remeber you have timewalk)
-- Crusher is cool because he is still decent against nullrod fish.  Just keep dropping artifacts and he quickly becomes a Quirion Dryad with Trample.  Also if you have say a cathodin or even metal worker who is not summoning sick, you can combo up the crusher then sac him to the alter and modular his counters over to the un-sick guy for the win.
-- Lodestone is probably the weakest win.

Staff combo is easy.
-- Play metal worker and give him time to become not sick anymore.
-- Play staff.
-- Tap metal worker and reveal 3 artifact for 6 mana.  Now use the staff to untap the worker (with 3 mana left) and then use 1 to untap the staff itself.  Netting 2 mana per cycle... continue for infinite mana.
-- with infinite mana, use the staff to gain infinate life
-- with infiniate mana, use the staff to draw your deck
-- with infiniate mana, play alter 2 myrs and crusher
-- do the myr combo and pump the crusher to 100,000
-- sac the crusher to the alter and make the metal worker a 100001/100002 (he wont be sick if your doing the combo).
-- Optional Step:  Now declare "I float sufficent mana to draw 50 cards" and then play timetwister and draw your deck -AGAIN-
-- DECLARE THAT YOU SPEND ALL YOUR MANA WITH THE STAFF (you can use the untap ability while the staff is untapped to spend away any mana).
-- Fan open your hand revealing 4 force of wills and 4 blue cards and ask "GG?"


The Sideboard:
4 - Tormod's Crypt

If you want to have a psudo-transitional SB you can go with:
3 - Workshops
3 - Suichi
1 - 4th Transmute Artifact
1 - Sundering Titan
1 - Platinum Angel
1 - Razormane Masticore
1 - Mindslaver
Now the plan becomes - Transmute Suichis into titans or Cathodin into Razormane etc... Not to mention that they are fairly solid beaters as is.

[hauntedechos]

well, I see that there is little interest in this deck concept/build

Anyways, to Harlequin: First, thanks for taking the time to read through this deck.  About your list, I like the added stability of only running mono colour.  However, I am worried about REB and PyroBlasts sided in to counter everything in the decklist.  In addition, I'm also not sure of not including Mana Drains.  The reason being that, even with the moxen and mana accelerants (chalice @ 0 scares me on that issue as well ), this deck needs to power out the combo.  And the cost of casting the pieces all at once is pretty off the chart @ 8mana!

While I like how your list has multiple win conditions that utilize Myr+Ashnods, it leaves multiple artifacts on the table.  And my concern there is EnergyFlux.  I'd preferr to have the pieces off the table untill I'd like to go off.  Or at least keep it down to 2 pieces (ashnods and a Myr w/1 myr in the g/y) and the kill card in my hand.  Further, one of the reasons I decided to shy away from BrainFreeze was the "pass the turn" aspect to win on the opponents turn.  I'm not sure I can think of all the options a player would have to him at that point.  Or if they could even pull something off before draw phase to win the game, I still feel uneasy about it.  I guess I'll have to weigh the choice of 8mana and win on my turn and 7mana and pass the turn.

As I stated in my post, I do really like using Duress as a pro-active counter.  I feel that utilizing this card in such a way, alows me to thin my opponents ability to nuke me while trying to go off later in the game.  Or at least allow me to get the pieces in play etc.  Of course this can only be done with the Black element in it, so to go Mono U would further require me to give up the best tutors I have.  Of course the answer there may be to run a heavy draw engine instead.

Finally, I am unfamiliar with a few of the conditions you utilize.  By that I mean the cards themselves.  I have only been back in action since Mirrodin and I was out as of Mirage.  Because of this I missed many of the major changes in Magic.  That said, I'd have to become used to the plays made with thoes mentioned cards.

I do fully intend on trying your list out and seeing how things go for it.  And I'll try and get back to you on that and other issues if you like.  In the meantime I'm thankfull for your interest and input, even if it was just to post your list.  I was hoping that there would be a little more input over this deck.

Anyways everyone can feel free to PM me or post on this thread more.

cheers
Haunted

[Harlequin]

Yeah no problem.

The deck I proposed is really an Amalgemation of 3 core decks.  Worker/Staff, Muter/Agro, and Altar/Myr.  In rethinking the deck I posted, you probably want to drop the Mind's Desire and run a Sundering Titan instead. 

Understanding Transmute Artifact is important to the deck.  Essentially here is how it works.  You declare the spell, and make the "initial Payment" that payment is 'Sacrifice and Artifact' and .  That's all you pay when the ability goes on the stack.  At this point the initial casting cost of the artifact you sac'ed is Locked In lets call that number 'C'.  Now the spell can be countered (and if it is, the artifact you sacrificed doesn't come back).  If it's not countered you choose an artifact in your deck.  The cost of that artifact let's call 'Z'.  Now as the spell is resolving, you look at the value 'Z - C' lets call 'D' for Differance.  If Z is bigger than C then you can pay D mana to make the spell work.  If everything works then artifac you chose comes into play.  If not, then it goes into the GY (this can be used to search for a Myr and put it into the GY if you need to.

Ok that came out alot more complicated then I thought.  Let's try an example.

Cathodin cc={3} , when he is put into the GY from play, you add to your mana pool.

Sundering Titan cc={8}.

Now Lets say I transmute the Cathodin (who is in play).  First I tap then I anouce Transmute artifact and Sacrifice the Cathodin - at this point C is locked in a C = 3.  Now Transmute Artifact goes on the stack, and the "Add " goes on the stack above that.  So now I add the to my mana pool.

Now it goes uncountered, and I get to search my deck.  Here are some things I could do:
-- Search for Staff of Domination cc=3.  Z(3) - C(3) = D(0).
 End result I would have a Staff in play and in my mana pool.
-- Search for Memory Jar cc=5. Z(5) - C(3) = D(2).  Now I opt to pay out of the .  End result is that I get Jar and have in my pool at the end.
-- Search for Sundering titan cc=8.  Z(8) - C(3) = D(5).  In order to get the Titan into play I need to come up with a total of mana.  I already have from the cathodin's "when I go into the GY" ability so All I need is 2 more mana from say.. my lands.  So I tap 2 moxen and get my sundering titan for a total cost of + sac Cathodin. 

The moral of the story is that Cathodin effectively Transmute's for anything that costs 6 mana or less with no additional mana commitment ... because he gives you 3 from his body and 3 from going to the GY.

Notice in the above example of transmuteing Cathodin for Titan, it is "Null Rod Proof."  Remeber that Ashnod's Alter can be turned off by Null Rod, effectivly killing a 'one trick pony' type of deck.  Energy Flux is really not that bad either.  Metalworker can make short work of E-Flux because he can provide a metric-fck-ton of mana.  This means you can easily play right through 1 E-flux.  If your really that afraid of it, run Eon Hub in the board.  It beats on Stax, Oath, E-flux, and Ichorid fairly savagly.

[Imsomniac101]

Since when is Diciple banned?

[ReAnimator]

Why is:
2x Myr + 1 Ashnods = infinite storm for 5 mana ,
better than:
2x Top + Helm of Awakening = infinite storm for 2 mana?

With 4 tops in the deck they even help find your other pieces, why is spending more mana on things that don't help the rest of your deck better? also it opens you up to grave yard hate which the top's don't.

I've been tinkering (haha) with a combo deck built around this in legacy, but no one gave me any feedback so i sort of left it. One thing I found i liked about the legacy version, is that grapeshot and brainfreeze were better than tendrills, just cause they cost one with a helm in play, so it made it really easy to go off, as you only needed 3 mana untapped to kill in one turn instead of 8.

<it's entirely possible that i am missing something completly obvious, if so i appolgize and please disregard>

[fatalist.remix]

Because most decks will kill you using your own Helm.  It has a fearful symmetry.

[ReAnimator]

Because most decks will kill you using your own Helm.  It has a fearful symmetry.

Why would you ever play it before you are ready to win that turn?? that just doesn't make any sense.

[dicemanx]

Instead of opting for combos that need 3-4 cards, you might consider overlapping two 2-card combos - Metalworker+Staff, and Time Vault+Transreliquat. The Metalworker combo, however, works ideally in an very artifact heavy build, so instead of using a base blue build to protect your combo via counterspells, you could use artifacts for disruption instead (CotV, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Tangle Wire, Defense Grid etc). That way you can also switch your mana base towards the abuse of Workshops and Ancient Tombs/City of Traitors. This might be departing a little too far from your initial intention, but I just don't think that a 4 card combo is going to win you many games.

[warble]

well, I see that there is little interest in this deck concept/build

Okay, let's look at your "combo"

Myr Retriever
Ashnod's Altar

What hate do we have that makes this combo suffer:

Null Rod
Any artifact destruction
Chalice of the Void
Sphere of Resistance

What other combos do we have in vintage at our disposal:

Helm of Awakening + Divining Top
Grim Tutor + Black Lotus + Yawgmoth's Will
Merchant Scroll + Ancestral Recall + Gifts Ungiven

  So let's take a second and evaluate how many dead cards we're running in your deck versus other decks.  With the helm combo you run 3 dead cards (helms), with grim tutors the only dead cards are bounce and protection that aren't actually dead so 0, and with merchant scroll again your only dead cards are bounce so 0.  With your combo you have a minimum of 7 dead cards.  So, essentially, we can rip out your 7 card combo and replace it with any of the 3 mentioned combos with absolutely no drawback whatsoever.  Does this mean we're not interested in playing 7 cards that can only be described as dead for the majority of a vintage game?  For the purposes of competitive vintage, the answer is sadly yes.  You haven't even included mishra's workshop to enable a turn 1 win, which still wouldn't allow the deck to be competitive.

[hauntedechos]

@Warble

Thanks for your reply.  I suppose then, that this deck is a terrible waste of time and that I should just pick up an existing combo deck and be satisfied with learning it.

@Dicemanx

Definatly thank-you for your reply to the post.  I was of the thought that if I included more perm. artifacts that I'd be more suseptable to EnergyFlux and the like.  However given the responce to this deck idea, I'll just toss the pile after all.  I've also seen a few of your posts and tidbits about you on MTGontario.  I'd be interested in your thoughts on Dragon currently in vintage as well as Bomberman which MTGontario claims is a Canadian deck, as I'm an hour east of Toronto.  Please feel free to PM me.

Well it's a good lesson learned here =)  again thanks to all who replied.  I have been able to pull off turn 2 kills, however NOT with consistency.  I thought with that kind of possibility it could be tuned to more consistency.  guess not =(

thanks all once again.

Haunted.

[dicemanx]

If your goal in this thread initially was to follow a less beaten path and focus on some new combination, I would urge you to not give up. There's still a *lot* of unexplored territory, especially with regards to some of the combos listed here involving cards like Metalworker or Time Vault. No one is really exploring these ideas currently on these forums to my knowledge; if I had a little more time personally, I know that I would be taking a very serious look at Time Vault. I think the take-home message is that if you plan on building a combo deck that uses some inflexible combo parts (which have little use outside of the combo), you're pretty much limited to 2 card combos for the sake of consistency, or if it can be achieved, going for mass redundancy (which a 3 card combo deck like WGD focuses on).

I'd be interested in your thoughts on Dragon currently in vintage as well as Bomberman which MTGontario claims is a Canadian deck, as I'm an hour east of Toronto.  Please feel free to PM me.

My thoughts on WGD haven't changed much since I played the deck at SCG Rochester. If by chance you didn't catch the thread in the open forum, I wrote a mini-report and my thoughts about the archetype. You can find some additional, more current discussion in two threads in the Starcity Vintage forum. I cannot comment too much on Bomberman - while it is a Canadian deck, some US players have enjoyed recent success with it and have tourney reports and threads going on the forums here.

And welcome to the TMD boards!