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L_O_L
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« on: January 08, 2007, 07:34:16 am » |
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So here's the story.
Last night me and my brother were talking Magic things, about what tournament we could be attending next, what decks to play, and so forth. We are avid Vintage fans by the way. Out of the blue I ask him this absurd question : "do you think I could win every single tournament if I'd be privileged to always win the die roll, and start with 4 Hasted Goblin Lackeys in play ?". Those Lackeys would be entirely independent to the decklist I'd play, and general Vintage rules would apply (so no more Goblin Lackeys in the actual deck as well). Now I know this sounds really strange, but it's brainteasers like these that keep me and my brother attached to the game we so love. Needless to say, my brother brings up the whole statistics-argument and tells me I would probably lose 1 tournament out of a hundred, so no bananas. Of course I have to concede the argument because the power of mathematics force me to.
But then he crossed the line.
After a short moment of silence, in which I was brainstorming and thinking really hard of an unbeatable decklist with which to abuse these Lackeys, he goes and adds "you probably couldn't even build a consistent first turn goldfish-kill-deck with that advantage". I call shenanigans, we go on for a few more minutes arguing, and I then decide I would build him such a deck by the time he came back from school the day after (that is today). Now I come to you, fellow TMD'ers, to help me out here. I know that it might not be too hard, I actually have a few ideas myself, but seeing as there's little time left I thought I'd put the idea out there to get a better result faster.
The way I see it, there are a couple of approaches to this :
1) You just ignore the Lackeys and build Meandeck Tendrils (which would then only need a consistent storm count of 7 to win, because the Lackeys attack for four anyway). I don't know this deck well enough to guarantee that this would kill on the first turn consistently though. 2) You abuse the Lackeys by getting tons of Goblins into play (Siege-Gang Commander, Goblin Marshal, Kiki-jiki, etc.) and pull some sort of combo win from there. 3) You build a very consistent Tendrils combo deck and abuse the hell out of your 4 creatures by running then-broken cards like Culling the Weak, Diabolic Intent, etc. 4) You put as much mana acceleration in a deck as possible, add 4 Serum Powder, and 4 Hatreds. Hatred would be like Tendrils of Agony for 1 mana more, except you don't need a storm count to go with that.
So I was wondering if you guys had anything to add. I really want my competitive nature towards my brother to triumph here, and of course I think it's possible to break the game beyond repair in this situation, I guess I just need to see what you people can come up with. Keep in mind that all you need is a first turn kill in goldfishing, so no disruption is really needed since Force of Will is not a factor.
Thanks for reading this !
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dandan
More Vintage than Adept
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More Vintage than Adept
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2007, 08:27:46 am » |
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Does turn 1 Trinisphere count as a 'win' given that you can attack for 16 damage before your opponent can play a spell (barring silly lands)?
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Playing bad cards since 1995
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L_O_L
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2007, 08:36:14 am » |
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Definitely not. The opponent simply cannot have had a single turn. I thought about Trinisphere and other things, but it's still not a direct kill, so to speak. However, if anyone is genius enough to come up with some sort of infinite recurring Time Walk kill, that would count because the opponent didn't get to playing a turn. It's just an example though.
One other thing : can you stack Lackey triggers so that you can put a Goblin Matron into play when the first trigger resolves, search your library for a goblin with the Matron trigger, then use the following Lackey trigger to put that goblin into play ? If so, there's some serious Goblin Matron/Goblin Ringleader/Goblin Recruiter potential out there, but I'm not quite seeing it right now. I guess Gaea's Cradle and Brightstone Ritual would both be pretty broken in combination with stuff like Slate of Ancestry and Collective Unconscious, but I get the feeling I'm overlooking something blatantly obvious.
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2007, 09:08:50 am » |
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Your best bet would definitely be Meandeck Tendrils. Getting to Storm = 7 + Tendrils would be much much easier - although it's not really in the spirit of things, I'd imagine.
And yes, you can stack the triggers of Lackey that way.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2007, 09:31:05 am » |
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Easy!
2 Steam Vent 4 Volcanic Island 1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus petal 1 Chrome Mox 1 Mox ruby 4 Brightstone Ritual 4 Goblin Matron 4 Goblin Ringleader 4 Kiki-jiki 4 Skrik Prospector 4 Goblin Sharpshooter 4 Siege-Gang Commander 4 Goblin Warchief 2 Goblin Marshal 4 Mog fanatic 4 Goblin war strike 4 Goblin Charbelcher 3 Mass hystaria 1 Timewalk
Primary sorces of damage:
Goblin Sharpshooter + Haste + SGC (goblin fanatics) Goblin Warstrike Goblin Charbelcher (for 8 cards into a mountian)
Theory: lackeys hit for 4, now all you need 16 more damage. Sharpshooter + SGC gives you the ability to sac 3 goblins for 5 damage (as well as Sharpshooter dealing 1 damage when he comes into play untapped) means you can win off 9 goblins in play.
Originally I thought of making this deck manaless.. but that proved to be too wasteful because it required too many lackey's to get prospector on the board. Now the deck has the ability to cast Prospector using the land for turn, or even MORE powerful a brightstone ritual with a land for turn.
Basically hitting 16 damage is fairly easy.
Sideboard for game 2: 4 Force of will 4 Misdirrection 4 Foil 3 Snapback
Just try and keep those lackies on the table for game 2! If not then for game 3 just side back into the original deck.
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Godder
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2007, 09:51:45 am » |
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Goblin Charbelcher seems a possibility when you consider that you can stack Lackey triggers to give you Matron-> Recruiter, thus giving you a free Mana Severance effect. Since you don't have to worry about lands and it's all about getting Belcher into play with 3 mana, Gaea's Cradle and Mishra's Workshop seem like possibilities. While you're at it, Skirk Prospector, Siege-Gang Commander and Skirk Fire Marshal could be worth looking at, too, since there's this play available:
Attack with Lackeys -> Prospector, Fire Marshal, SGC. Tap 5 Goblins to put 10 damage on the stack, and then sac Lackeys, Fire Marshal and Prospector to make enough mana to throw the three Commander tokens at the opponent's head. Total = 20 damage, and you win.
Edit: When you say consistent first turn kills, how does one define consistent?
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« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 09:54:48 am by Godder »
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That's what I like about you, Laura - you're always willing to put my neck on the line.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2007, 10:33:39 am » |
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2 Steam Vent 4 Volcanic Island 1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus petal 1 Chrome Mox 1 Mox ruby 4 Brightstone Ritual 4 Goblin Matron 4 Goblin Ringleader 4 Kiki-jiki 4 Skrik Prospector 4 Goblin Sharpshooter 4 Siege-Gang Commander 4 Goblin Warchief 3 Skirk Fire Marshal* 4 Mog fanatic 4 Goblin war strike 4 Goblin Charbelcher 2 Mass hystaria 1 Timewalk
Skirk Fire Marshal I didn't even know exsisted. Thats a great damage dealer!
Also I don't think Recruiter is even nessisary with Charbelcher because you only need to hit 8 non-lands before you hit a mountain to win after you've attacked with Lackey.
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L_O_L
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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2007, 11:55:10 am » |
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This is great Harlequin, many thanks ! I'm off to playtest that pile. I too forgot about the Fire Marshal, it's a very nice source of damage. @ Godder : by consistent, what I mean is as close to a 100 % kill ratio as humanly possible I guess. This probably just translates into showing my brother 10 consecutive turn 1 kills. Shouldn't be too hard with a little luck here and there. If anyone is interested, I'll let you know how this turned out. Thanks for your support  !
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Illissius
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formerly radagast-
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2007, 07:14:46 am » |
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There's many ways to tackle this; you mentioned some of them.
Obvious approach: Add Goblins. The main problem here is that you can build for consistent kills around either Piledriver, Warchief, or Prospector, but I don't think four Matrons, four Ringleaders, and four copies of the card itself is enough to consistently find either one, so you need to be clever. What I think is an important card here: Final Fortune (plus the two Portal reprints) -- it's Mass Hysteria and Relentless Assault in one, letting you Lackey stuff out and attack with them. Mogg Maniac also sounds nasty if you want to go the Fire Marshall route.
Smennen approach:
4 Badlands 4 Lotus Petal 4 Simian Spirit Guide 4 Chrome Mox 4 Dark Ritual 4 Seething Song 4 Lion's Eye Diamond 4 Brightstone Ritual 4 Culling the Weak 4 Shadowblood Egg 4 Burning Wish 4 Diabolic Intent 4 Infernal Tutor 4 Plunge into Darkness 2 Ill-Gotten Gains 1 Tendrils of Agony 1 Siege-Gang Commander SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony SB: 1 Empty the Warrens SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains SB: 1 Infernal Contract SB: 1 Biorhythm SB: 1 Demonfire SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
If you can't win with twelve copies of Lotus, twelve or so Demonic Tutors, and four free damage, you don't deserve to.
Hatred approach: Like above, minus Plunges, Wishes, and combo pieces, plus Hatreds.
Kill Them With Lackeys: Hasty Goblins, Coat of Arms, Goblin Pyromancer, Reckless Abandon, Goblin Grenade, acceleration.
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Trying is the first step toward failure. Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively. last.fm
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Shake
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2007, 07:07:45 pm » |
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This is the untune pile that lept to my mind:
4x Rites of initiation - An auto win if it's in your opening hand.
• Creatures 4x Simian Spirit Guide 4x Prospector 4x Goblin Recruiter 4x Goblin War Chief 1x Skirk fire Marshal 4x Seige Gang Comander 1x Goblin Marshal 1x Goblin Sharpshooter 4x Elvish Spirit Guide 1x Mogg Maniac - a kill that's fetchable if you combo it with the Gem Palm Incinerator. 1x Gem Palm Incinerator 4x Goblin Ringleader 4x Goblin Matron
• Spells 4x Brightstone Ritual 4x Fecundity 3x Food Chain 1x Mox Emarald 1x Mox Saphire 1x Black Lotus 1x Wheel of Fortune 1x Lotus Petal • Land 4x Teiga 2x Wooded foothills
I don't even know if I got the numbers right, do you want a 60 card deck or a 56 card deck?
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freakish777
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2007, 12:13:56 am » |
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Empty the Warrens anyone? Seems hot when you're sacrificing 20 Goblin tokens for R to Prospecter and have a Sharpshooter and Warchief in play.
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herbig
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2007, 02:07:47 am » |
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// Lands 1 Bayou // Creatures 4 Elvish Spirit Guide 4 Simian Spirit Guide // Spells 1 Cruel Bargain 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mana Vault 1 Sol Ring 1 Chrome Mox 1 Mox Sapphire 4 Infernal Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Infernal Contract 4 Chromatic Sphere 4 Chromatic Star 4 Dark Ritual 1 Black Lotus 4 Culling the Weak 4 Diabolic Intent 4 Land Grant 1 Tendrils of Agony 1 Lion's Eye Diamond 1 Lotus Petal 4 Cabal Ritual 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Ancestral Recall I goldfished this list 10 times and killed turn one every time. Edit: updated list aw snap, cut the mox for a star Fixed - Godder.
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« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 05:36:51 pm by Godder »
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technogeek5000
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2007, 11:58:18 am » |
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Not sure if this would win turn 1 every game, but it would certainly be very fun to play. SUPER MEGAH FOOD CHAIN GOBLINS FTW  Combo: 4 Food chain 4 Fury of the horde Goblins: 4 Goblin warchief 4 Goblin recruiter 4 Goblin piledriver 4 Goblin ringleader 4 goblin matron 3 Siege gang commander 2 Gempalm incinerator 2 Skirk prospecter 1 Goblin sharpshooter 1 Kiki jiki mirror breaker Mana 4 Simian spirit guide 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Emmerald 1 Lotus petal 1 Black lotus 4 taiga 3 Ancient tomb 1 sol ring 1 Mana crypt 4 Wooded foothills 1 Blood stained mire 1 mountain Behold the awesome might of Fury of the horde double attack steps.
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hemophiliac
If u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d.
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