[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays: Improving Ichorid

[Smmenen]

SCG has a new format.   This is the first article of my weekly column "So Many Insane Plays."

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13525.html

This week I begin by unveiling my Mana Ichorid list.  Here is the decklist:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20464

Mana Ichorid
By Stephen Menendian on 2007-01-21 as a potential deck for Vintage
As written about in http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13525.html
Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
4 Serum Powder

Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Sutured Ghoul

Enchantments
2 Dragon Breath

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
2 Duress
4 Unmask

Lands
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 City Of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine
3 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain Of Vapor
2 Duress
1 Petrified Field
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Gemstone Caverns

I explain the various card choices and try to articulate a way of thinking about Ichorid that will help you think about how to build and play it.

I'll try to answer any questions. 

I would like to use this thread as a launching pad for a deep and detailed discussion of the archetype and its future.  Begin!

[Oedipus]

Gemstone Caverns is brilliant!

[policehq]

Did you test the maindeck change of
-2 Shambling Shell
+2 Ashen Ghoul?

Are you concerned you will not find enough Dredgers to speed up your game? 10 is still a good number.

In addition, it will allow you to take more advantage of having mana sources game 1; so far, your only advantages are hardcasting Cabal Therapy (which admittedly is a huge turn 2 play, especially flashing it back with Ichorid) and the sideboard.

I really like the fundamental speed Ichorid Manaless list. It doesn't serve a good purpose as a template for a competitive deck, but I think it will help many non-Ichorid players get a concept of the deckbuilding and playing. Although it is barely worth discussing the deck, 4 Urza's Bauble would definitely go into my balls-to-the-wall Manaless Ichorid list. This gives you the opportunity to flashback Cabal Therapy turn 2 with a Nether Shadow or an Ichorid, whereas now our only option is Ichorid.

-hq

[Smmenen]

Did you test the maindeck change of
-2 Shambling Shell
+2 Ashen Ghoul?

Are you concerned you will not find enough Dredgers to speed up your game?

Extremely   Not having that dredger _will_ slow you down a full turn, if not more.   That's unacceptable. 

10 is still a good number.

And 15 blue spells is enough to support Force of Will.  But I'd rather have 17. 

[policehq]

Then how about your artifact acceleration? I'm speaking only from the reference point of playing Ashen Ghoul, where it is necessary to have reusable black mana, but I've always been underwhelmed with Black Lotus and Lotus Petal. Chrome Mox is often good, but then with Unmask and Bazaar of Baghdad, it is also often unplayable.

Was there ever any consideration of putting Ashen Ghoul into the maindeck? What attempts did you make to keep it, if so? If the Shambling Shell cut will not work, then perhaps
-1 Black Lotus
-1 Lotus Petal
would work. Then, however, you lose your opportunity for turn 1 Duress/Cabal Therapy + Bazaar of Baghdad, however rare that circumstance may arise.

I just think the more advantage you can get out of cards that aren't in your opening hand, the better. A Dredged Ashen Ghoul seems more advantageous than the possibility of an opening hand with Black Lotus or Lotus Petal and little to nothing to cast with their acceleration.

EDIT: I just did a little bit more reviewing of your article, and the decklist you posted has a total combined creature power of 32. Under circumstances such as removing creatures to Ichorid and Unmask, losing creatures to Serum Powder, and most of all, not Dredging through your entire library, are you having any trouble reanimating a lethal Sutured Ghoul on turns 3 and 4?

EDIT #2: You did not go into how you sideboard for game 2. Do you always anticipate Tormod's Crypt? Or do you always anticipate Leyline of the Void? What 8 cards do you side out to bring in 4 Caverns and 4 Answers? When I first tested Caverns, the most important drawback (not listed in your article) is the fact that you have to drop 4 cards from your maindeck along with the cards you need to remove to make Gemstone Caverns worthwhile.

Do you wait until game 3 to sideboard Caverns and your appropriate answer? My biggest problem with playing Mana Ichorid is deciding to try and play around Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Leyline of the Void, or a combination of two of these. As space is tight in the deck already, auto-losing game 2 due to a poor sideboarding choice I can't foresee is not a promising option.

I'm assuming you don't go with a complete overhaul and transformational sideboard bringing in Grudges, Chains, Caverns?

-hq

[nataz]

meh, I was hopeing for something more...revolutionary. I've played almost that exact Maindeck list (slightly different colored mana b/c charm over chain in the SB) at Myriad, and my day 2 list at strat basically subtracting fields and adding imps (pithing needle was popular). It should be noted that Imps also give you a nice t2 play off a 5-7 card starting hand (t1: bazaaar, t2: imp -> free cabal therp), and do something in the gy (mainly count against ashen/shadow and feed ichorid/ghoul/troll). Pretty much any deck I want to play with mana, I'd rather have imp then field, even against wasteland. I hear though paul "OMGI<3MeanDeckDIdYOUknowIdiscovere dSTEVEandMeandeck!one11" maistro you don't like imp, which seems really surprising. Any particular reasons why?

The SB again seems unconvincing. While the grudge/vapor is nice, the gemstone cav always played out under par for me in testing. How were you using them in your list, as a direct sub for mana cards already in the deck, or where you taking out other spells?

As far as speeded ichorid up, I like the canadian idea of adding 8 baubles. That was a really interesting idea, too bad it conflicts so hard with chalice.

As far as t2 plays in manaless ichorid, I really am liking factories over wasteland/leyline. You speed up the kill or you cabal therp a turn early.

[policehq]

As far as speeded ichorid up, I like the canadian idea of adding 8 baubles. That was a really interesting idea, too bad it conflicts so hard with chalice.

Urza's Bauble is a nice addition, and I was pleased with the cantrip-effect of Mishra's Bauble, but little else. They do not conflict as poorly as you would think with Chalice of the Void except for space in the maindeck. Your opening hand + 2 cards off Bazaar pretty much determines the deck's playout, so if you have Chalice and a Bauble there, you can play them in the correct order to get both benefits. If you do not draw  both, it is most likely that the rest will be dredged into your graveyard.

For reference, here is my 4 Bauble list:
// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
    4  Ichorid
    4  Nether Shadow
    2  Sutured Ghoul
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    4  Gigapede
    4  Shambling Shell
    2  Golgari Thug

// Spells
    2  Dragon Breath
    4  Cabal Therapy
    4  Unmask
    2  Dread Return
    4  Serum Powder
    4  Urza's Bauble
    4  Chalice of the Void


-hq

[dicemanx]

This article is too much telling and getting the reader to blindly trust rather than discussing and exploring - this seems more the product of excitement than a search for objective truth.

Adding mana gives you the benefit of added disruption (Therapy and Duress, with answers out of the SB), flexibility of win conditions (Putrid Imp and Ashen Ghoul), and answers out of the SB. However, the article doesn't address the idea that cards like Imp and Ghoul, aside from offering an alternate beatdown route and discard outlet, also adds to the resiliency of graveyard hate. Ashen Ghouls can put pressure on Tormod's Crypts, and combined with Imps they can end the game without relying on SB answers for cards like Needle and Crypt. Flexibility is important, and while the list Steve presents has its own strengths, it represents a list that is merely in between the manaless Ichorid and the much more flexible mana-Ichorid versions.

Paragraphs like this are also puzzling:

Faster decks beat Ichorid because they goldfish before Ichorid wins, and Manaless Ichorid doesn't slow them down enough to win first. Ichorid can poke holes in their game plan with spells like Chalice of the Void and Unmask, but decks like Pitch Long (Grim Tutor combo decks) are used to facing disruption of that severity on a regular basis, match in and match out. Pitch Long consistently wins on turn 2 through fierce Blue mage disruption in the form of Force of Will and Mana Drain. Why would it have much trouble winning through an Unmask or a Chalice on turn 2 when facing Ichorid?

From this quote we can surmise that Pitchlong is nigh unbeatable in the format (because nothing in the format is faster and/or can present 3+ relevant disruption spells vs Long by turn 2 consistently and still be competitive in T1), and yet somehow MDG, which is slower goldfishing than Ichorid and presents 2 or fewer disruption spells by turn 2, is somehow supposed to beat Long consistently and yet Ichorid cannot. A bevvy of absolute, exaggerated statements that do Ichorid a disservice and even suggest to the novice deckbuilder that they are more constrained in their deckbuilding decisions than they really need to be.


Gemstone Caverns, incidentally, is not a new idea - it had been previously addressed in a SCG Ichorid thread. While Caverns can essentially steal going first, it is incredibly inflexible in a deck that might have to be settling in for a lengthy battle (by vintage standards) in games 2 and 3. Furthermore, given that you won't be doing very much with that mana most of the time even if you get a Caverns into play turn 1, it makes for a suspect SB decision. I'd rather play mana producing lands without drawbacks this severe in a deck that runs so few such mana sources to begin with - I'd probably play Undiscovered Paradise or Gemstone Mines for example.

You wrote:

1) It has to be in your opening hand to make good use of it
2) You have to pitch a card to play it
3) It is legendary
4) It is only good on the draw

Now for Ichorid, the first doesn't matter. Generally Ichorid doesn't play cards that aren't in its opening hand or drawn on the first turn. That's why Leyline of the Void is an arguable maindeck inclusion into Ichorid variants.

The second is equally irrelevant. Ichorid is used to pitching cards. Most of its cards end up in the graveyard. It is also used to removing its cards to Unmask and the like. Ichorid is full of bad cards it loves to remove when called to do so.

The first certainly does matter in games where the disruption forces you to start drawing cards to search for answers. Ichorid has limited resources and limited access (little tutoring or card drawing), so it might take a little while before you find what you need. Drawing this land while hunting for mana producing lands isn't my idea of a good time.

The second can also matter in games where your Bazaar is cut off and you might be considering using the discard phase to put dredgers into your graveyard. Plus, post SB, there aren't going to be as many cards that you'll necessarily want to be pitching to Caverns. These scenarios are not very likely to come up, but it happens on occasion and does contribute to adding to the significance of the drawbacks of the card.

Now, maybe I'm just not skilled enough to consistently be fanning open hands like Caverns, CoV and Bazaar post SB, but I just don't see how losing a potentially important card from hand and getting a turn 1 "jump" offsets the drawbacks to warrant playing this land.

[BreathWeapon]

@DiceManX

Gemstone Caverns is important because it allows the deck to hard cast its discard turn one or return a Ghoul turn two, not having to wait on either one makes the difference against combo or combo control; it's the same reason the deck uses Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, Mox Jet and Chrome Mox instead of additional 5c lands.

I would still find room for Ashen Ghoul tho', just 2, with Gemstone Caverns in the SB.

[dicemanx]

Gemstone Caverns is important because it allows the deck to hard cast its discard turn one or return a Ghoul turn two

The list doesn't have any Ashen Ghouls. Furthermore, as Steve put it in his article, T1 is all about the trade-offs. You can't list the advantages to me (ones that I'm already familiar with as is anyone who analyzed the merits of the card), without comparing it to the disadvantages and assessing the costs versus the benefits. Even running Lotus and Moxes has drawbacks, and some expressed the idea of cutting them entirely (!) in favor of land.

Steve offers one perspective and asks us to trust him in his "cost-benefit" analysis, but people should always strive to verify things for themselves and in context of the kinds of decks they would expect to see at the events that they play in. The gauntlet that one uses to test with can give varying results, so what one person concludes in personal testing won't necessarily be reproducible.

[nataz]

Even running Lotus and Moxes has drawbacks, and some expressed the idea of cutting them entirely (!) in favor of land.

I cut them in my mana builds because in game 2 when I really want the mana, I also tend to want to have chalice down at zero. This combined with the fact that lotus cant use an ancient grudge over over two different turns (or bring back an ashen, then flashback a grudge), chrome mox cutting a full turn out of filtering with bazaar, and petal having the same drawback as lotus, makes me want to have land, not artifacts g2.

You may not think that's important now, but if Waterbury is any indication of the next couple of months you are going to have to be prepared to fight though multiple peices of hate in any given game, including game 1. 1 shot mana accel, or lands that only work in your opening hands are really weak.

[dicemanx]

Gerokatel in the SCG thread also mentioned an interesting decision that an opponent can make to weaken Caverns - choose to be on the draw. This might be a valid option if the disruption card of choice is Leyline.

It is already difficult in testing to find colored mana sources, find the relevant disruption, *and* have Bazaar ready to proceed with your plan, with the 9-11 colored mana versions. Steve's version uses only 7 colored mana sources post SB (only 5 permanent), with a potential 4 extra if Caverns pans out on turn 1. That just adds to the risk and the inconsistency.

[Smmenen]

Gerokatel in the SCG thread also mentioned an interesting decision that an opponent can make to weaken Caverns - choose to be on the draw. This might be a valid option if the disruption card of choice is Leyline.

This is a very intriguing point that I had not considered.  Here's what the floor rules state:

113.   Play-Draw Rule
For the first game of a match, the winner of a coin toss (or other random method) chooses either to play first and skip his or her first draw step or to play second. The winner of the coin toss must state this choice before looking at his or her hand. If the coin toss winner states no choice, it is assumed that he or she is playing first. The player who plays first skips the draw step of his or her first turn. Each turn thereafter follows the standard order set forth in the Magic Comprehensive Rules (see section 101.5a). This is commonly referred to as the play/draw rule.

After each game in a match, the loser of that game (even if the game loss was due to a penalty) decides whether to play first in the next game. If the game was a draw (there was no winner or loser), the player who decided to play or draw for that game chooses for the next game.

114.   Pregame Procedure
Before a game begins, players determine who plays first (see section 113). This may be done any time during the pregame procedure before the players look at their hands. (Note that players are not required to decide who plays first before sideboarding.) The following steps must be performed before each game begins:
1.   Players may exchange cards in their decks for cards in their sideboards (only after the first game of the match).
2.   Players shuffle their decks (see Universal Tournament Rules, section 21). Note that players may stop shuffling to perform additional sideboarding but must then shuffle sufficiently.
3.   Players present their decks to their opponents for additional shuffling and cutting.
4.   If the opponent has shuffled the player’s deck, that player may make one final cut.
5.    Players present their sideboards and put them in a clearly distinguishable place.
6.   Each player draws seven cards. Optionally, these cards may be dealt face down on the table.
7.   Each player, in turn order, decides whether to mulligan (see section 115).

Look what I've bolded.

This creates a very odd situation.

In some games, you will know - before you have boarded - who will be playing first.   But from the wording here - it seems that in some games, the player who has the right to decide whether to play or draw may refrain from making this decision until after sideboarding.   That's a very odd inconsistency in pre-game procedure that has never been relevant until now.   

[Smmenen]

First of all, let me thank you all for your replies and interest.   

My hope is that this article and this decklist can become an entry point for a broad discussion of the deck and its future beyond the other threads already available for that purpose here on the Drain.   I think that my list - although similiar to others - is sufficiently different from "Cookie Monster" that this can become a useful discussion.   

I really enjoy playing the deck, I think it is a fantastic choice for any serious Vintage player, and I hope that we can make it even better, or at the least, come to greater understanding of our choices.

Then how about your artifact acceleration? I'm speaking only from the reference point of playing Ashen Ghoul, where it is necessary to have reusable black mana, but I've always been underwhelmed with Black Lotus and Lotus Petal. Chrome Mox is often good, but then with Unmask and Bazaar of Baghdad, it is also often unplayable.

Was there ever any consideration of putting Ashen Ghoul into the maindeck? What attempts did you make to keep it, if so? If the Shambling Shell cut will not work, then perhaps
-1 Black Lotus
-1 Lotus Petal
would work. Then, however, you lose your opportunity for turn 1 Duress/Cabal Therapy + Bazaar of Baghdad, however rare that circumstance may arise.

I just think the more advantage you can get out of cards that aren't in your opening hand, the better. A Dredged Ashen Ghoul seems more advantageous than the possibility of an opening hand with Black Lotus or Lotus Petal and little to nothing to cast with their acceleration.

EDIT: I just did a little bit more reviewing of your article, and the decklist you posted has a total combined creature power of 32. Under circumstances such as removing creatures to Ichorid and Unmask, losing creatures to Serum Powder, and most of all, not Dredging through your entire library, are you having any trouble reanimating a lethal Sutured Ghoul on turns 3 and 4?

EDIT #2: You did not go into how you sideboard for game 2. Do you always anticipate Tormod's Crypt? Or do you always anticipate Leyline of the Void? What 8 cards do you side out to bring in 4 Caverns and 4 Answers? When I first tested Caverns, the most important drawback (not listed in your article) is the fact that you have to drop 4 cards from your maindeck along with the cards you need to remove to make Gemstone Caverns worthwhile.

Do you wait until game 3 to sideboard Caverns and your appropriate answer? My biggest problem with playing Mana Ichorid is deciding to try and play around Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Leyline of the Void, or a combination of two of these. As space is tight in the deck already, auto-losing game 2 due to a poor sideboarding choice I can't foresee is not a promising option.

I'm assuming you don't go with a complete overhaul and transformational sideboard bringing in Grudges, Chains, Caverns?

-hq

These are alot of good questions.   Let me try to answer them.

1) I did not seriously entertain the idea of playing Ashen Ghoul.    I think there are several reasons why. 

First of all, there are lots and lots and lots of great cards competing for maindeck space.   I've never felt that one of the pressing needs this deck has is more recursive creatures.   If anything, that's one of the few resources I feel is in relative abundance.

If that changes as a result of Extirpate, then Ashen Ghoul may need to be included in the deck.

Secondly, as I already stated, I refuse to cut dredgers or any of the other resources I feel are more valuable.  (See my first reply to your q earlier in this thread).

Thirdly, my list does not rely on mana in game one. 

My deck has the ability to use mana if it is available, but aside from the two duresses, there are no cards in the maindeck that absolutely cannot be used without mana.   Of course Duress can be pitched to Unmask in the even that i have no mana just as Ashen Ghoul can feed Ichorid in the event that I have no mana, but beyond that Ashen Ghoul would be a waste if I have no mana to bring it back.  Ashen Ghoul would make the deck more reliant on mana in that way.

But here is the real key: 

My list started with Manaless Ichorid and I made changes from what I felt was a great deck.

Those changes were designed to accomplish one task: fix the weaknesses in Manaless Ichorid.   As I said in the article, I felt that those weaknesses were twofold: 1) combo decks and 2) inability to answer hate.    The changes I made were designed to accomplish those two tasks.

I am reminded of something Andy P. told me when I asked him why others hadn't come up with the innovations I had back in March of last year when we unveiled meandeck Ichorid.

Everyone else and there mother was gushing on and on about how sweet Ichorid was - and there were honest attempts to make Ichorid a viable Vintage deck by several different teams.   However, our team was the only one to win power with Ichorid until that point.   I asked Andy why it was that we had succeeded (albietly modestly) where others had not.  His answer was: I focused on the things that were important.

I think that is really what is going on here: Ashen Ghoul is nice.  It's good.  It helps fight Crypt and does lots of nifty things, but it isnt important.  Why?  Because it doesn't really shore up the important weaknesses: which is combo and answer hate directly.   If you can win through hate without it, then fine.

That isn't to say that I dont think the deck maybe shouldn't include an Ashen Ghoul or two, esp with Extirpate in the format, but I think that it is not at all clear that this should be the first step to answering hate.   


2) To address your second point about combined power.   

The list I originally started testing when I knew that I was going to add mana to the deck had several Gigapedes to ensure that I could feed the Ghoul.   But when I experimented with various configurations, slowly decreasing the total power of the deck, I eventually arrived at what I felt was the bare minimum of power I could run and still support Ghoul Combo.

As I said in the article, I put running Ghoul combo in the deck as an absolute constraint on deck design.  With that in mind, it was obviously paramount that every Dread Return is lethal.   

I have not, as of yet, encountered a situation where I could not achieve lethal swing with my first Dread Return in a situation in which I was not facing hate.   Have you?

3) I _always_ Anticipate tormod's Crypt.  It is one of the most played sideboard cards in Vintage.   
The answer to your subsidiary question is that it depends upon the particular deck.  In many circumstances I could cut Petrified Fields and Duresses or even dig into the Sutured Ghoul combo if necessary.  In other circumstances, I may just cut the Gemstone Mine and 3 Cities for Gemstone Caverns.   Ask about a particular match and I'll give you a particular answer.

4) I am afraid I don't understand.  If you lost game 2, you should be on the play in game 3 and thus can't use Caverns.  Am I missing something?

meh, I was hopeing for something more...revolutionary. I've played almost that exact Maindeck list (slightly different colored mana b/c charm over chain in the SB) at Myriad, and my day 2 list at strat basically subtracting fields and adding imps (pithing needle was popular). It should be noted that Imps also give you a nice t2 play off a 5-7 card starting hand (t1: bazaaar, t2: imp -> free cabal therp), and do something in the gy (mainly count against ashen/shadow and feed ichorid/ghoul/troll). Pretty much any deck I want to play with mana, I'd rather have imp then field, even against wasteland. I hear though paul "OMGI<3MeanDeckDIdYOUknowIdiscovere dSTEVEandMeandeck!one11" maistro you don't like imp, which seems really surprising. Any particular reasons why?

The SB again seems unconvincing. While the grudge/vapor is nice, the gemstone cav always played out under par for me in testing. How were you using them in your list, as a direct sub for mana cards already in the deck, or where you taking out other spells?

As far as speeded ichorid up, I like the canadian idea of adding 8 baubles. That was a really interesting idea, too bad it conflicts so hard with chalice.

As far as t2 plays in manaless ichorid, I really am liking factories over wasteland/leyline. You speed up the kill or you cabal therp a turn early.

I think that although this list may not be "revolutionary," I have made substantial strides.   

I think the most common mistake that has been made is that you have been starting with Mana lists and adjusting.   Let me try to explain.    As Waterbury approached I started to implore my team to seriously consider this list.

However, I made a crucial mistake.   I started posting mana lists without Sutured Ghoul Combo.   As a result, my teammates who may have considered playing this became enchanted with the advantages of mana, but couldn't really come to appreciate the value of the Manaless Ichorid list.

In other words, it is very important that we start with Manaless Ichorid and then make mana adjustments that fill gapes in manaless ichorid's game plan - not vice versa.   That is, we should'nt be starting with mana ichorid and then making adjustments to it because we lose sight of what it is that makes manaless ichorid so good.   

Since I started with Manaless Ichorid, I think my list keeps in focus those things that make Manaless Ichorid good while shoring up the weaknesses it has.   The rest of you (and this is not a criticism) may not have had the same objective.   

Putried Imp has that problem.  You aren't starting with Manaless Ichorid and then gap filling, your trying to start somewhere else.   That's ignoring, in my view, what's important.   

This article is too much telling and getting the reader to blindly trust rather than discussing and exploring - this seems more the product of excitement than a search for objective truth.

Yeouch!

In one of the earlier iterations of this article, the title was "Understanding Ichorid" and I opened the article with the elaborate discussion of magic theory and utilities.   I realized that the article wasn't going to be very interesting to people who just wanted to get a decklist, so I rewrote the whole thing and kept in a bare minimum of my theoretical discussion.

Something that got lost in the draft cuts was an emphasis on the importance of understanding Ichorid first and foremost.   I think my earlier draft would have preempted this criticism, but made the article alot less interesting for the average reader.   

Believe me, I would rather write to you Peter than most people, but that would turn off most of my readership .   Fortunately, we can have it both ways.   We can discuss the various merits of cards here without having to bore other people with our lengthly analysis .

Adding mana gives you the benefit of added disruption (Therapy and Duress, with answers out of the SB), flexibility of win conditions (Putrid Imp and Ashen Ghoul), and answers out of the SB.

I think you've got most of it right.  But as I've already said many times in this post, I don't think "flexibility of win conditions" is a weakness of manaless Ichorid.   If it was, then Manaless Ichorid would have trouble winning games 1.

That focus takes your "eyes off the prize" so to speak. 

However, the article doesn't address the idea that cards like Imp and Ghoul, aside from offering an alternate beatdown route and discard outlet, also adds to the resiliency of graveyard hate. Ashen Ghouls can put pressure on Tormod's Crypts, and combined with Imps they can end the game without relying on SB answers for cards like Needle and Crypt. Flexibility is important, and while the list Steve presents has its own strengths, it represents a list that is merely in between the manaless Ichorid and the much more flexible mana-Ichorid versions.

I think that is a fair characterization.   But I will again return to the point I've made: flexibility of "win conditions" is nice, but is it necessary to win?   I think the answer is no.    Putrid Imp and Ghoul may add some flexibility, but the cost is more absolute reliance on mana.    My deck uses mana game one as a secondary resource.   Pimp and A. Ghoul make mana more of a primary resource.   The cost for that change is steep, imo.   

I think we can talk about more specifics if you'd like.

Paragraphs like this are also puzzling:

Faster decks beat Ichorid because they goldfish before Ichorid wins, and Manaless Ichorid doesn't slow them down enough to win first. Ichorid can poke holes in their game plan with spells like Chalice of the Void and Unmask, but decks like Pitch Long (Grim Tutor combo decks) are used to facing disruption of that severity on a regular basis, match in and match out. Pitch Long consistently wins on turn 2 through fierce Blue mage disruption in the form of Force of Will and Mana Drain. Why would it have much trouble winning through an Unmask or a Chalice on turn 2 when facing Ichorid?

From this quote we can surmise that Pitchlong is nigh unbeatable in the format (because nothing in the format is faster and/or can present 3+ relevant disruption spells vs Long by turn 2 consistently and still be competitive in T1)
, and yet somehow MDG, which is slower goldfishing than Ichorid and presents 2 or fewer disruption spells by turn 2, is somehow supposed to beat Long consistently and yet Ichorid cannot. A bevvy of absolute, exaggerated statements that do Ichorid a disservice and even suggest to the novice deckbuilder that they are more constrained in their deckbuilding decisions than they really need to be.

Interesting point.   However, I think the answer to your criticism is present in what I wrote in the paragraph quoted and around it in the article.   It's essentially like what Flores said in his article on interactivity: in order to not lose to faster decks, you have to force them to interact. 

In my testing and experience, the rule of thumb for combo versus Ichorid is this: Ichorid has to play two Good disruption spells in the first two turns (leyline isn't good enough) to win the game.    When I do Ichorid v. Pitch Long, I think you'll see this is the case.   

It is true, however, that Grim Long routinely wins through Force of Will and Mana Drain - both played in the same game.   In my experience, the basic rule of thumb for fighting Grim Long or Pitch Long is similar to the one I presented with Ichorid: answer 3 threats in the first two turns and the Drain deck wins.  Answer two, and it is anybody's game.   

I don't think I was suggesting that Ptich Long or Grim Tutor decks are nigh-unbeatable.  My point was that faster decks beat Ichorid because Ichorid doesn't force them to interact sufficiently.   My Mana Ichorid solves that problem to a great extent. 

Your criticism of Gemstone Caverns is well put, but I don't think it goes so far as to suggest that we shouldn't be using Caverns.  The advantages, in my view, still outweigh the costs.  It seems to me that you need to win 40% or so of your post board games to win any given match.   If Caverns helps us achieve that threshold or at least even up game 2, then it is worth it so long as we aren't sacrificing much needed sb space.

Steve offers one perspective and asks us to trust him in his "cost-benefit" analysis, but people should always strive to verify things for themselves and in context of the kinds of decks they would expect to see at the events that they play in. The gauntlet that one uses to test with can give varying results, so what one person concludes in personal testing won't necessarily be reproducible.

I completely agree, but I also think that you should test with the list I gave and not use your own experience to merely extrapolate - esp. if you are _not_ playing with Sutured Ghoul.   

I do not ask anyone to trust me because I don't think that's necessary or proper.    I think that testing with this deck will prove its own worth without my word to back it up.

This deck is quite amazing and does indeed shore up, significantly, the weaknesses of Manaless Ichorid.

[nataz]

Putried Imp has that problem.  You aren't starting with Manaless Ichorid and then gap filling, your trying to start somewhere else.   That's ignoring, in my view, what's important.   

I find this Ironic because for the last month I have been testing almost exclusively with mana-less (or near mana-less) ichorid. The addition of mana for me came out because of a need to beat leyline of the void, which meatberts only solution for was "dodge". That may have been viable before your articles came out, but with ichorid on the front page of SCG three times in the two weeks leading up to Waterbury, trying to "dodge" leyline was no longer possible. Manaless ichorid is a house game 1 in a lot of matches, but it becomes the huge underdog games 2-3 if people know what’s going on. Thus, came the addition of mana for one of two solutions.

Solution 1) was what I pm'd you about earlier, but never detailed. It's the idea of a transformational SB into Doomsday in anticipation of your opponents SB'ing out almost all of their counters and hand disruption. Most lists started with 4 rits and 4 doomsday, and then followed up with kill cards, extra mana, and tutors. There are multiple stacks you can use ranging anywhere from 1-3 mana, bazaar/no bazaar, 0-4 cards in hand, and perms/no perms on the table before you go off. Each kill has obvious pro/cons, but that can be talked about elsewhere if people are interested. 

Solution 2) add E-Charm (or the madness white card, or erase, or chain, w/e) to the board! Totally not a new idea, but it can work. The biggest draw back was what you mention, trying to draw a workable hand w/ a bazaar, and yet still have access to mana + answer. I still favor e-charm over chain for two reasons. 1) its on color with grudge, which at times you will be brining in and therefore less of a strain on the mana base (duals instead of mine which can run out, or cities which do dmg). 2) It does something if there is no leyline on the board (untaps bazaar). Chain is still amazing against something like welder (or in my day two match against TK with hunted wumpas, lol), but untaping a bazaar is just amazing.

After I added mana, I felt that it was a waste to have it sitting in the maindeck as potentially wasted slots. Fields, while amazing at times, don't speed you up any more then imp does (can be sacc'd to dread returns, dumps extra creatures t1 into the gy, etc), and just as field can disrupt with a strip mine, so can imp with a cabal therp flashback (on t2!). 


Regardless of the discussion, I may have been remiss in not saying good job on the articles. While they may not have been what I was looking for, they certainly were well done over all, and it's nice to see type 1 on the front page of SCG.

[Smmenen]

 Fields, while amazing at times, don't speed you up any more then imp does (can be sacc'd to dread returns, dumps extra creatures t1 into the gy, etc), and just as field can disrupt with a strip mine, so can imp with a cabal therp flashback (on t2!). 

Your assuming that you will always have access to mana to play Imp, then yes, fields don't speed you up anymore than Imp does.  But you do not always have access ot mana.  It's important that your cards are as useful as possible in the most matchups.  Putrid Imp is not a bad card, but if I were to add more cards to the maindeck that requried mana, wouldn't the first two cards be Duress 3 and 4?   

Petrified Field keeps you resilient against wasteland at no mana cost while Putrid Imp costs 1.   To make Pimp more reliable, you have to add more mana.  I'm betting my maindeck has less overall mana than yours. 

I urge you to try my list, it's very strong. 

I've had winning matchups accross the board in my testing and strong sb games.   

[policehq]

Steve, thank you for taking the time to address each of my points. I was concerned after your earlier reply that they might not be forgotten.

While I do not have much time, I am going to take a leaf out of your book and address one situation, then come back and reply in full later tonight.

When I was playing Sutured Ghoul in Mana Ichorid, I ran across the problem of him not being lethal during many post sideboard games. I'm not sure if I ran the exact creature base as yours, but I remember the combined power level being within 2 numbers of yours at most.

If Ashen Ghoul's placement in the deck is not justifiable because it does not solve a problem with the design, then I believe Gigapede could. Gigapede does not depend on having a mana source on the board, it is not required in your opening hand to be effective like Petrified Field does, it speeds up the deck after a Wasteland or Pithing Needle, and it provides for a lethal Sutured Ghoul with ease.

There are a few changes I would make to your deck, and the first would be dropping Lotus Petal and Black Lotus. Since Manaless Ichorid can easily perform with its 8 creatures (although Mishra's Factory, in my opinion, is huge), Ashen Ghoul is indeed unnecessary. After your points have been made, I'd be inclined to start by including 2 Gigapede in the list.

-hq

[InfinityCircuit]

I really like the new Mana Ichorid list.  However, I think it is really way too low on black creatures.  In numerous playtesting games I barely had enough black creatures to kill the opponent with Ichorids.  Also, I feel like 12 dredgers is too few.  I also feel like there is too much mana in the deck.  I think a reasonable change worth looking at is cutting Lotus Petal and/or Gemstone Mine for Ashen Ghoul or Golgari Thug.

I'd also like to share two cool moments in playtesting:

1) I mulliganed down to one card, which happened to be a Bazaar, and proceeded to win on Turn 4 on the play.
2) After being Crypted, I won the game by Cabal Therapying myself for an extra Ichorid, despite having a Bazaar out, because I only had one card left in my Library.  This risky move would have been safer if I had more black creatures because I could have used the Cabal Therapy to make sure there was no Ancestral, Repeal, etc.

I think another angle worth evaluating is nataz's 4 Field/2 Bayou approach.  I think that just running 2 Cities (or 2 Bayous) main along with 2 Ghoul, or some combination that uses very little land main, might be beneficial.

As far as sideboarding, this is my current setup, but I'm notoriously bad at this:

Versus Stax
-4 Chalice of the Void
-4 Unmask (is this correct?)
+4 Gemstone Caverns
+4 Chain of Vapor (I tried bringing in the Ancient Grudges but I found they were overkill and couldn't get around Welders when facing down Ensnaring Bridge, for example.)

I'd like to echo meadbert's comment on the Starcitygames.com boards - in a metagame where Probasco Gifts runs maindeck Tormod's Crypt, Rich Shay runs double Crypt main plus 4 Leylines in the side, and DA runs Crypt main plus 4 Leylines and 2 Planar Void in the side, Ichorid may just not be a feasible choice.

EDIT: I just got my most amazing win yet.  I won, post-sideboard, through 2 Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void (although at that point I was beating down with Nether Shadows), and 2 Empty the Warrens (just to make chump-blockers for my Nether Shadows.)  I dealt the final point of damage with a hardcasted (!) Stinkweed Imp.  Mana Ichorid is excellent and the ability to cast Duress/Cabal Therapy is fantastic.

Chain of Vapor also allows some crazy combat tricks.

[Oedipus]

Here's a list I find more appealing than any of the previously posted for Ichorid

4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Gigapede
4 Nether Shadow
2 Sutured Ghoul

2 Dragon's Breath
2 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Petrified Field
1 Maze of Ith
1 Strip Mine

I read Smmenen's article on Starcitygames.com and saw the Gemstone Caverns in the side.

That's Brilliant!

My previous side had been

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Ray of Revelation
3 Riftstone Portal
4 Pithing Needle

Pretty lame when your opponent drops a before game Leyline

But Gemstone Caverns for Chain or Charm is very smart. Now I was wondering which to play, Chain of Vapor or Emerald Charm to cast with Caverns. I know Chain is more versatile but it can be played by your opponent, but do they have any legitimate targets? E Charm I think doesn't matter in color for Grudge because you're using Caverns for any colored mana.
So I guess I answered my own question. Nevermind

[InfinityCircuit]

Oedipus - as posted on Starcity, the list is better with -1 Maze of Ith -1 Gigapede +2 Shambling Shell, and Smennen himself prefers Wastelands now to Leyline of the Void.

[Smmenen]

I really like the new Mana Ichorid list.  However, I think it is really way too low on black creatures.  In numerous playtesting games I barely had enough black creatures to kill the opponent with Ichorids. .

Notce you said "Barely" had enough.  It's designed to do just that.   

Remember, everything is trade offs and Ichorid is just a whole bunch of trade offs.  The list I have arrived at and proudly presented to you all is a list that walks a tight rope act.  I've tuned and tuned and tuned it so that I _just_ enough of everything I need to combo out so that i can fit everyything else in.

You said "way too low."   That's just a plain exaggeration.

It is low, yes.   You might even say "light."  But it is not "too low" nor is it "way too low."

Remember, I didn't just make up this list over night.

The list I presented was the result of about 30 hours of testing over my Christmas break.   

I haven't tested or put that much effort into a new deck in almost a year.    I didn't just cobble this deck together at the last minute.  The decision are carefully thought through.   I urge skeptics to continue to try this deck before making changes.

Small changes will offbalance the careful, delicate, and precise trade-offs I've put in place.    If you have a suggestion, I will entertain it with an open mind, but I will also explain, if asked, my card choices in more detail.   But I can't read minds, I need to know where people think the problems are before I can answer them. 

[BreathWeapon]

I'm at the point where I would rather MD the Duress and SB the Petrified Fields, Petrified Fields are good against Fish and its Wastelands and that is about it. It also gives the deck one extra slot for an Ashen Ghoul etc. Thoughts?

[Smmenen]

I'm at the point where I would rather MD the Duress and SB the Petrified Fields, Petrified Fields are good against Fish and its Wastelands and that is about it. It also gives the deck one extra slot for an Ashen Ghoul etc. Thoughts?

If your metagame is light on Wastelands and high on Combo and mana drain decks, that makes alot of sense. 

[InfinityCircuit]

I really like the new Mana Ichorid list.  However, I think it is really way too low on black creatures.  In numerous playtesting games I barely had enough black creatures to kill the opponent with Ichorids. .

Notce you said "Barely" had enough.  It's designed to do just that.   

That was a typo.  My mistake.  I have lost because of having too few black creatures.  However, I do concede that I was exaggerating a bit.  As I mentioned in my post, (no reading minds  ) I think a worthwhile change might be -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Gemstone Mine, +1 Golgari Thug, +1 Ashen Ghoul or some combination thereof.

[Harlequin]

Coming from Cookie Monster, I have a few comments and questions.  There are 2 glaring differences that I see that have not been mentioned. 

Firstly, the entire abandonment of Leyline of the Void.  Obviously Ichorid loves free disruptions to (as you put it) poke holes in your opponent's game plan.  It's no secrete that Leyling is powerhouse in that regard.  I'm just wondering what you see as stronger?  Was this a rough cut to make, or do you have something else against the card?  I have never particularly liked Leyline on the main of these Psudo-manaless builds, but I find it often being sided in for games 2-3, esp against combo.

Secondly, three times chain of vapor vrs welder is mentioned.  You also say that cards with dredge are completely sacred in your build and should never be cut.  Have you considered connecting the dots and running Darkblast in the main?  Are dredge creatures more valuable?  I personally find that running 2 Darkblasts main make Emerald Charms better in the board.

So those are the biggies, I also have a few more minor choices:

The 'general feel' that I get about your list is that you have weaker options for Plan-B and Plan-C.  In Cookie Monster when Dread Return is not an option, Ashen Ghoul takes up the slack providing more 3/1's for 'Traditional Ichorid' beats.  When Sutured Ghoul is not an option then Strossus is a 9/9 sustainable flyer (who can draw benefit from D.Breath).  Also in general a single strossus in the yard is as good as 3 creatures when it comes to lethal ghouls.. making sutured ghoul an option more often, marginally. 

Not to put words in your mouth, but a typical answer to the latter problem is "Animate Golgari."  I'll pre-emtively answer this and say that Golgari doesn't have trample, doesn't have flying and cannot benefit from the Haste.  So even a 15/15 Golgari just inevitablity.  Given enough blockers (see: Empty the Warren) that Golgari just swings into blockers while your opponent digs/tutors for their out.  A 9/9 Trample Flyer on the other hand is a true clock.

The lack of reliable Alternate wins makes it seem like Serum Powder is weaker in your build.  It means you have to really consider the cost/benefit of Powdering away your 2nd Dread Return or 2nd S.Ghoul.  Now on the flip side of that, in Cookie Monster we only run 10 dredge cards so there is that added strain on Powder (because removing too many dredgers is a problem).  I'm not convinced those limitations are exactly symmetrical, nor that the +2 dredgers makes you immune to the possibility of powdering your deck too thin on dredge.

I'm really really REALLY surprised you liked Gemstone Caverns.  It seems like a terrible card, and a gigantic waste of space.  I think Chrome Mox and even Mox Diamond are better cards for that slot.  The main issue I have with it is that you must have it in your opening grip.  By the time your first main rolls around (if you mull to bazaar) then you will have seen 3 more cards when your on the draw.  Thats 3 more chances to rip into mana.  I'm not sure what Caverns is tech against, is it turn 1 pithing needle on bazaar?  In order for Caverns to be good, you need 1) Caverns, 2) something worth playing with caverns on thier or your first turn and 3)Bazaar (or maybe Putrid Imp).  Also Gemstone has no game with Petrified Fields. 

Lastly, Chain of Vapor over Emerald Charm.  It is not irrelevant to point out that Hand =/= Yard.  Even in the case of turn 0 Leyline, this is vintage! Unless you back that with more disruption thinking that a vintage deck cannot get back to before you go lethal is just silly.  Also it is vastly weaker against something like Planar Void. 

Its no news to me that Chain of Vapor can hit a wider range of cards, but I think packing a combination of 4x Grudge + 4x Charm + 2-3x Darkblast basically covers the most common threats to deck (GG Blazing Archon .. GG).  This is even more true for builds running the Putrid Imp (because a pre-bazaar needle on bazaar can be tough to answer).   

[Smmenen]

Coming from Cookie Monster, I have a few comments and questions.  There are 2 glaring differences that I see that have not been mentioned. 

Firstly, the entire abandonment of Leyline of the Void.  Obviously Ichorid loves free disruptions to (as you put it) poke holes in your opponent's game plan.  It's no secret that Leyling is powerhouse in that regard. 

Actually it is.   That’s the problem.    It’s not a powerhouse in that regard save for murdering Ichorid mirrors and Dragon.  A more accurate descriptor would be “marginally useful.”   

Here’s the real secret: the slower your deck is, the more important Leyline is.   

Now why might that be?   I will give you the answer to that fabulous little conundrum, but let me preface my answer.   

Remember that I played Ichorid for a while last year, top 8ing at SCG Richmond nearly a year ago and even invented the inclusion of Leyline into the archetype last April, and then published said list on SCG in May. 

Leyline was a critically important addition because it turned off Yawg Will and slowed down Welder recursion.  Much like Chalice, it bought time so that Ichorid could win the game.

I am going to assume that you have read the last three SCG articles I’ve written on Ichorid.  That being the case, recall the chart I constructed in my Manaless Ichorid v. Gifts games.   Remember how both of the games that Gifts had turn two Tinker, Ichorid should have won – and in fact did win one of those?   

The secret and the reason why Leyline is not good in good   Ichorid lists is that Ichorid is faster than Yawg Will – and what’s more, it’s now faster than Tinker.   

In decks that are slower, Leyline is a waste.   In those decks where it is not faster, Leyline is incredibly marginal.   I have some of the best Pitch Long players in existence on my team: Pat Chapin, Paul Mastriano, Mike Herbig and I, myself, invented Grim Long and pioneered much of the archetype.   I can tell you from experience that Pitch Long absolutely annihilates Manaless Ichorid, with or without Leyline.  I have played countless games where turn zero leyline against Pitch Long may as well have been Leyline of the Singularity, that’s how useful it was. 


I will write more about this matchup in the future, but the general tenor of most Pitch Long games against Manaless Ichorid is that they are either blowouts or Ichorid appears like it will win, but Pitch Long manages to win out of nowhere.  I would say that 50% of the games look like the latter.   

Now, it may appear that there is some tension in what I've said between the claim that Leyline is bad against decks that are slower and less bad against decks that are faster - where is the line?   It's important to distinguish between decks that win on turn 2-3 and decks that win on turn 3-5.   The former, the combo decks, are so powerful that Leyline doesn't really stop them (save Dragon).  But the Drain decks, gain so much inevitability (as I will talk about in a moment) that if you aren't going to win by turn 4, you absolutely need Leyline not to die.   That's why you like Leyline, but that's also why your list is flawed:

If you think that Leyline is a powerhouse that tells me one important piece of information: your Ichorid list is too slow.   

The reason Manaless Ichorid is so good, among other reasons, is its consistent, unstoppable clock – i.e. speed.   Manaless Ichorid, as I demonstrated in my last article, can be designed to win consistently on turn 3.   

Every single variant on Ichorid should be an attempt to gain something tangible and powerful as you move away from the turn three clock.    That is the touchstone of Ichorid.   The question is always: what do you gain as you move further and further from a consistent turn three kill?

Cookie monster and its ilk do not understand this reality – the reality that Manaless Ichorid is the starting point and then every single deviation is a deviation from it in an effort to trade off something in exchange for a slightly slower clock.   

Every single part of a turn you concede to a control deck is when those decks gain inevitability.   As I demonstrated in game 5 of the Ichorid v. Gifts article, I traded off a turn in which I would throw 3 Therapies a the Gifts players face and lost because I gambled incorrectly.    Gifts and Slaver and decks like that get a critical mass of power and just win no matter what you do after a certain point. 

If your Ichorid deck wins between turns 4 and 5 on a consistent basis, your Ichorid list is not a viable deck.  You have to be somewhere in the turn 3-4 range to have a fast enough list.   

Thus, my design is designed to retain as much of the speed of Manaless Ichorid as possible while gaining interactive power and resilience. 

I'm just wondering what you see as stronger?  Was this a rough cut to make, or do you have something else against the card?  I have never particularly liked Leyline on the main of these Psudo-manaless builds, but I find it often being sided in for games 2-3, esp against combo.

Once again you reaffirm my assumption that you like Leyline in your list because your list, frankly, is slow.   You do this by stating that you never really liked Leyline in the main of manaless lists… but you don’t say why.  I already know the answer, as I’ve stated several times before: Manaless Ichorid is faster and thus doesn’t need it.   

It is possible that you find you want Leyline for the combo match simply because you couldn’t find anything better.  That is fair.   But it doesn’t turn the matchup into a winning one.   

To answer your first question there: not only was it not tough to cut Leyline, it was a relief.   The card is so crappy I can’t express it.    It was necessary in the old Ichorid list I posted last May, but Ichorid is now much faster. 

Secondly, three times chain of vapor vrs welder is mentioned.

Huh?

You also say that cards with dredge are completely sacred in your build and should never be cut.  Have you considered connecting the dots and running Darkblast in the main?  Are dredge creatures more valuable?  I personally find that running 2 Darkblasts main make Emerald Charms better in the board.

Certainly, I have considered Darkblast.   Lots and lots of problems inhere in Darkblast.   First and foremost, you need mana to use it.   As I’ve stated many times already in this thread, my deck does not rely on mana.  It’s there in case it comes up, but game one especially, I see very little reason to be anything other mana Manaless Ichorid.   Manaless Ichorid dominates game ones across the field save combo.  Why would you want to deviate from that script?   The mana comes more forcefully into play in games 2 and 3.   It’s there, in the deck, because Manaless Ichorid has game 1 dead weight that can be made more useful by being able to hardcast Thearpies and Duresses.  But I’m not relying on it.

Secondly, if you are Darkblasting Welder, that tells me your deck is fundamentally flawed.   First and foremost, you should be killing your opponent, not darkblasting a Welder.   You are stuck in May of 2006.   

Finally, it is not that creatures are more valuable, but that Shells serve several critical roles:

a) they are 3/1 and make Sutured Ghoul combo viable without having to play shit like Strossus or Gigapede
b) they are black creatures that feed Ichorid
c) they are creatures so they help get Nether Shadow out of the yard.

So those are the biggies, I also have a few more minor choices:

The 'general feel' that I get about your list is that you have weaker options for Plan-B and Plan-C. 

The general feel I get from your list is that you have a marginally stronger Plan B and Plan C but a terribly weak Plan A compared to both Manaless Ichorid and my deck.   Your win percentages are, at best, 15% lower, across the field game one.   At worse, you probably struggle in matches that are cake for my deck.

In Cookie Monster when Dread Return is not an option,

When is it not an option?  When Stax has 2Sphere down?  So what?   

Every other time, it is always an option.   Therapies clear the way of removal and counterspells very easily and very efficiently.

Don’t believe me?  Go read my Gifts v. Ichorid article;

Ashen Ghoul takes up the slack providing more 3/1's for 'Traditional Ichorid' beats.

As I said, you are greatly weakening your “Plan A” and making your deck overall much slower.   When you slow this thing down, you lose inherent power in the format.   

There is no logical way to state or explain this simple truth:  Turns = Game Wins/Losses   That is the inherent truth of tempo.   Even if you have “everything covered” it is, ceteris peribus, a bad idea to give your opponent more turns. 

 When Sutured Ghoul is not an option then Strossus is a 9/9 sustainable flyer (who can draw benefit from D.Breath).  Also in general a single strossus in the yard is as good as 3 creatures when it comes to lethal ghouls.. making sutured ghoul an option more often, marginally. 

Not to put words in your mouth, but a typical answer to the latter problem is "Animate Golgari."    I'll pre-emtively answer this and say that Golgari doesn't have trample, doesn't have flying and cannot benefit from the Haste.  So even a 15/15 Golgari just inevitablity.  Given enough blockers (see: Empty the Warren) that Golgari just swings into blockers while your opponent digs/tutors for their out.  A 9/9 Trample Flyer on the other hand is a true clock.

I’ve never reanimated a Golgari Grave Troll and can’t imagine that I ever will.    That is not my answer.   My answer is: when is Sutured Ghoul not an option?  When I’ve removed them both with Serum Powder?  Has never happened.

The lack of reliable Alternate wins makes it seem like Serum Powder is weaker in your build.  It means you have to really consider the cost/benefit of Powdering away your 2nd Dread Return or 2nd S.Ghoul. 

Not really.   First of all, its never happened in well over 150 games that I’ve ever had to remove both Dread Returns and both Ghouls with a Serum Powder.   Secondly, I have no trouble beating in with 3-4 Ichorids and several nether Shadows for a quick win.

Do you realize that I can dredge up my *entire* deck pretty regularly by turn 4.   That means I have all four Ichorids online very quickly.   If you are swinging in with 4 3/1s per turn, do you really need “alternative” win conditions?   

It’s like saying, “Well, I have Darksteel Colossus on the table, but I sure could use another!”

I'm really really REALLY surprised you liked Gemstone Caverns.  It seems like a terrible card, and a gigantic waste of space.  I think Chrome Mox and even Mox Diamond are better cards for that slot.  The main issue I have with it is that you must have it in your opening grip.  By the time your first main rolls around (if you mull to bazaar) then you will have seen 3 more cards when your on the draw.  Thats 3 more chances to rip into mana.  I'm not sure what Caverns is tech against, is it turn 1 pithing needle on bazaar?  In order for Caverns to be good, you need 1) Caverns, 2) something worth playing with caverns on thier or your first turn and 3)Bazaar (or maybe Putrid Imp).  Also Gemstone has no game with Petrified Fields. 

I’m not at all really, really really surprised you h ate Caverns.  It’s because your deck is tortoise slow.   My game plan banks on speed. 

As I said in the article, Caverns is great like this:

Turn Zero:
they play Leyline

You play Caverns

Opponents first turn:
They get their first turn.  On their endstep, you Chain of Vapor Leyline.

Your first turn:
Duress/Therapy hardcast off Caverns.
Play Bazaar.
Go to town

Turn two you can flashback Grudge off the Caverns.


That’s how amazing Caverns is.   You can substitute Leyline there for any card you can think of.   

Alternative, let’s say you have the Caverns, but not the Chain (a criticism Diceman came up with), that’s fine:

Turn zero:
Caverns

T1:
Bazaar to dig

Tap Caverns to Dueress

Let’s say you still haven’t found the Chain

T2:
Bazaar to dig

Tap Caverns to Chain now.   

Bam, you are back in this game and poised to win within two turns.

Caverns is amazing.   

Lastly, Chain of Vapor over Emerald Charm.  It is not irrelevant to point out that Hand =/= Yard.  Even in the case of turn 0 Leyline, this is vintage! Unless you back that with more disruption thinking that a vintage deck cannot get back to before you go lethal is just silly.  Also it is vastly weaker against something like Planar Void. 

“vastly”?  Have you forgotten that I’m running 12 discard spells?   Chain of Vapor is not weaker, it is strictly superior.

I am flabbergasted that you would even suggest Emerald Charm over Chain of Vapor.   I’m quite surprised that anyone would run that junk or things like Frantic Putrification over Chain in a deck with upwards of 12 discard spells.   

Unless you back that with more disruption thinking that a vintage deck cannot get back to

This just goes to show you, once again, that your decks fundamental problem is that it is slooow.

It is not at all unreasonable to think that a deck won't get to BB2.   Gifts decks only have a few black sources.  You should be winning or have wiped their hand by the time they get back to BB2.   (go see my Gifts v.Ichorid article). 

 

[mistervader]

I know this is a question I ask a lot, but if I am in a meta where there is no worry about moxes except after the Swiss, what can I take out in place of 4 Chalices?

Any suggestions would be great. Maybe I can fit in 2 Ashen Ghouls and 2 Gigapedes or something? I'm really at a loss, since the unpowered meta I am in means Chalice is only useful 10% of the time.

[policehq]

I think, Steve, that your success in proving the deck will rely on the readers' testing of games 2 and 3 or you providing illustrations that show your inclusion of mana sources in the main deck and answers to Leyline of the Void and Tormod's Crypt are successful.

You stated your starting point was Manaless Ichorid, but you are making trade-offs that will keep your clock and answer threats presented in the metagame.

Is Gemstone Caverns a successful sideboard choice? Do you never find yourself in a position where you have Chain of Vapor, Duress, etc. in hand game 2 and have to dig for a mana source? Though it is explosive and fast, you have made several arguments against Duress, Leyline of the Void, Ashen Ghoul, Golgari Thug, Darkblast, etc. because of their lack of usefulness if not found in opening hand. One of the strengths of Ichorid is that cards in your opening hand + 2 are useful. If you have no land in your opening hand, Gemstone Caverns cannot be dug into to play cards requiring mana (an answer), it cannot be removed from the game to Ichorid or Sutured Ghoul from the graveyard, it cannot be removed from the game to Unmask from hand, and it cannot be dredged.

Since the deck has to start the game with Bazaar of Baghdad, are 4 Chain of Vapor enough to answer Leyline of the Void? We cannot mulligan into a Chain of Vapor and a mana source instead of Bazaar of Baghdad, especially without the foreknowledge that your opponent will play Leyline of the Void?

Are the additional 4 mana sources in the sideboard enough?

I have only minor changes made to your maindeck, and those are subjective and perhaps more metagame dependent. You have your arguments and cases for your maindeck slots, but the entire point of your article and deck design was to improve your win percentages in games 2 and 3. Is that a success? Can you show testing results (turn wins, opening hands, what hate you faced) against mirror Ichorid with Leyline of the Void, Control Slaver, Bomberman, anything that plays Leyline and/or Tormod's Crypt, especially if you do not know before game 2 which hate card you will face?

-hq

[nataz]

Leyline was a critically important addition because it turned off Yawg Will and slowed down Welder recursion.  Much like Chalice, it bought time so that Ichorid could win the game.

Interestingly enough, with comments like yours I wonder if the 8 bauble plan is userful even at the expense of chalice. Considering that I can play though tormods with a fair degree of sucess even without chalice, and baubles do make the deck faster, I wonder if it's a valid trade off.

And as for "inventing" leyline and ichorid.dec...come on. You did well with it, even when others (me specificaly if you want) had left off on the concept, but there were other ichorid lists being played before that SCG, lists that were really similar to your revised versions after scg.

While I liked your articles, one thing you never touched on is the flow of game 2/3, which in my testing is often much different then game 1. You are SB'ing in a lot of cards, what are you taking out? You talk about a MD tweaked for speed, but those "tweaks" can not make up for the fact that you must be SB'ing out at least some dredge cards/black creatures, w/e. Seeing that you are slower g2/3, perhaps even a turn slower, depending on the hate that you see g2 it may make sense to bring in leylines for g3. I played leylines in my SB day 2 mainly against ichorid and dragon, but I know I brought them in G3 against TK with pitchlong, and I wish I had in my g3 match 4 against a gifts variant.

For instance, g3 against gifts in g4 my opponent opens with 2x tormods, AND I know he is playing pithing needle. The game went long, even with my grudges and a gemstone mine, and eventualy when I was in a decent position to force the crypt activations, I couldn't recover fast enough that his will inevitability took over. Leyline would have bought me time to recover after the crypts, perhaps only a turn more, but enough that maybe my discard could have played a role.

I’ve never reanimated a Golgari Grave Troll and can’t imagine that I ever will.    That is not my answer.   My answer is: when is Sutured Ghoul not an option?  When I’ve removed them both with Serum Powder?  Has never happened.

Wow, that is a really interesting statement. I have animated trolls a number of times, even in manless ichorid due to any number of reasons. 1) Powder removes both 2) Powder removes 1, 1 is removed to an ichorid 3) Powder removes 1, crypt removes another 4) You want to bait out the bounce 5) pithing needle on bazaar, no chance to draw, huge possible troll, but no ghoul in sight 6) bomberman has thrown out a lot of blockers, disrupted your engine (either with needle or crypt) and you are runing out of black creatures

The fact that you have *never* had any of these things happen to you, nor do you imagine, seems astounding.

What decks are you testing against? Do you test against MD crypts? Maindeck needles? True, I don't like to animate trolls, but I've had to do it multiple times in testing and in real life. Against pitchlong, prob never (although it would have been nice to block that stupid wumpas =P ), against gifts, again almost never. But against workshops with orb of dreams and gy hate, bomberman, bounce.dec, and aggro I have found trolls to be useful at times. It's a bitch when your ghoul dies to blockers beacuse of all the x/1 creatures. 

You should be stripping those from there hand quickly (go see my Gifts v.Ichorid article please .   You should be winning or have wiped their hand by the time they get back to BB2.

Oh, and welcome to dark ritual in gifts. Mox, underground, rit -> leyline. woot, frown. While this article was written before waterbury and ETW became a public crazy, we've had to deal with it in NE like forever now. Dark rit in Nate pea's deck, dark rit in crossman gifts, dark rit in brassy gifts, and now dark rit cause its good with etw. Just saying. GG's may be the only large team runing it, but a lot of people use their lists as starting points.

Oh and, t1 sol ring/vault/crypt + land, t2 trinket -> lotus -> leyline is also viable in Bomberman (tinket mage fixing mana ftw, OMG). The same can be done with different combonations of tutors (especially vamp which is really annoying against discard). 

One interesting bit about this article has been to force me to go back and look at caverens. I'm still not convinced with how you use it, but I'm willing to take another look. My largest concern with gemstone is that it has one of the same failings as leyline, it has to be in your opening 7 as opposed to your opening 10. Chalice is great cause the chances of finding it in ten cards is really pretty decent, same reason for why I like normal lands. Sometimes its gonna be tough to mull into bazaar + gemstone + chain even with powders.  

[Harlequin]

I still fail to see why you use Chain of vapor?  You apparently play in a world with no Meddling Mage nameing Dread Return, no Planar Void, and where your deck can kill faster than land-mox-rit.   

Also you make it sound like Cookie monster doesn't reliably win on turn 4.  Your deck runs MORE mana then cookie monster, but you claim it is less mana dependant.  You claim that you can dredge better than Cookie Monster, but you only run 2 more cards with dredge. 

You also say that in 150 games, you've never ~had~ to Powder away 2 dread returns or 2 Ghouls.  Which I can only assume means that you opt not to powder a hand with 2nd copy of a key card away.  So you instead mull that hand normally.... which is exactly point: that Powder is weaker in this build, because you have forced-to-mull hands.

My original post was much more inquisative then you took it.  I honestly wanted to hear your answers to the questions I asked.  It seems like your response was really in my face and had the "Its better because I said so" feel to it.  So my final conclution is that your deck is narrow and inflexable.  It will therefore die out faster as deck choose options that are outside the scope of Leyline of the Void.  I would venture a guess that this deck is probably and average of half a turn faster than Cookie Monster, but would loose to a wider range of hate cards.