[Planar Chaos] Null Profusion

[Oedipus]

I just saw this card on magicthegathering.com and it seems to have some potential in any sort of Long deck. What do you guys think.

Null Profusion 4BB

Enchantment

You have a maximum hand size of two.

Whenever you play a card, draw a card.

Skip your draw step.

[Moxlotus]

Once you get 2 lands you're done.  This card blows in vintage.  I can't see how anyone would play this.  Bargain is infinitely better.  If you got 6 mana, you should be playing Grim Tutor-->Will or something equally stupid.

[EnialisLiadon]

Once you get 2 lands you're done.

I thought maximum hand size just referred to what you have to discard down to at the discard phase.  Is it a more literal meaning in that you're not allowed to go over two cards?

Anyways, I think this card is also good for vintage.  You'll probably be playing a lot of spells to play this, which lessens its effect since you'll want spells to play afterward.  I agree that Bargain >>>>> this.

[Klep]

Once you get 2 lands you're done. 

Not quite.  It says "play a card" rather than "play a spell" for a reason.  Playing a land counts as playing a card.

The card is still terrible.  Bargain is infinitely better.

[memnarch]

Well... it’s almost like Future Sight for black, so I could see this going into a Pitch Long deck. I could definitely see this card winning games. I would probably only run 1 though. Not sure if it will make the cut. Mabie if it was a less to cast. Of course Bargain is better we know that, this card would be in addition to that.

[diopter]

6 mana is such an investment for Long, it will take so much of your hand to generate that much mana in a single turn and then potentially have to protect the bomb you cast with that mana, that it had better win you the game on the spot, without having to have other cards in your hand, or having to give a turn to your opponent. Yawgmoth's Bargain does this. Mind's Desire does this. Null Profusion does not do this.

[chrissss]

so once you have the 2 cards, and you get a hymn, ro another discard spell, your screwed. hmm, not too sure this is vintage material.

[UR]

If Recycle was really that nuts, people would have played it despite being green right? Changing the color helps the card a bit, but it still isn't something that'll be Vintage material. Like already pointed out... there are just soo many better things you can do with BB4.

[zeus-online]

Comparing it to Yawgmoth's bargain isn't fair at all, but i agree that this card is not good enough.

/Zeus

[carlossb]

I played sooo many years ago with Recycle decks, which involved playing Hurkyl´s and ESG and 4ManaCrypt/Vault. And they were broken.
Then Crypt and Vault got restricted.

Now Crypt and Vault are still restricted, but we have new rituals (Cabal) and new ESG (the timeshifted ones).

And above all: The card is BLACK. Which is the "combo" color.

If Bargain were not restricted, how many decks would include 2? (I´d do it in Long without any doubt).
How many decks would be created with just 4 Bargain?

This is no Bargain, but it´s BETTER than Recycle, just because it´s black.

I think this card has a lot of potencial to be broken.

[ReAnimator]

something similar to kobold clamp could work with this. Culling of the weak could really help a deck based around this.

Chromatic sphere/star are 1 mana for 2 cards with this out which should be more than enough to pull you through your entire deck with other rituals ect.

I don't know if it is acctually good enough but its worth trying out for fun. I think this has more potential applications in legacy than in vintage.

Once you get 2 lands you're done.

Ummm... not if you have ANY source of card advantage in the deck. I guess you never played recycle back in the day.
don't forget that the effects are cumulative so if you get multiples out you draw 2 cards off every spell.

[memnarch]

Once you get 2 lands you're done.  This card blows in vintage.  I can't see how anyone would play this.  Bargain is infinitely better.  If you got 6 mana, you should be playing Grim Tutor-->Will or something equally stupid.

Lucky for us pitch long plays like 10 lands.

I think you guys are underestimating this card. getting tons of mana usually isn’t a problem for me in pitch long. I play 31 mana sources in my deck, including rituals and artifacts that accelerate mana. That’s over half the deck. The problem I usually run into is running out of steam on the drawing front. Recycle in black IS a big difference. Because most of the mana you get in this deck is black.

[GexxX]

I saw this card yesterday and I already tried to build something with Culling the Weak. What I've come up to is the following:
This cards is damn good, if you can afford it! Every FUC**** card is a cantrip with this out. I tried it with the 0-Mana-Artifact-Critters, but it's still nuts, as soon as it's out. I did not need ANY will goldfishing like 30games. But, I fear a Deck monoB is not good, playing this. I ran Bargain also, but the Deck benefits far more from a Null Profusion.

I don't see why this card should be bad, because you CAN get so much mana in one turn with the rituals and ESG's and whatsoever else. Casting costs are not the problem of Bargain either, right? So why should they make Null Profusion sooo bad? CC5 would be ridiculous, because there are so many ways to get 5 mana, so 6 is quite ok.

I'm still not saying, that this card will definitely change Vintage, but I, for myself, will at least build some Decks around it, because I'm very sure this card is worth some tries!

So long(<-- ),

GexxX

[Moxlotus]

Once again, I must ask why it would be better to pay 6 mana for this card when you could just run another Grim Tutor and go Grim Tutor-->Will with that 6 mana?

It's not a case of whether the card is good.  It's a case of whether the card is better than what's currently available.

[memnarch]

What if you dont have enough cards in your graveyard though? what if you just played Timetwister? What if you just played Yawgmoths Will for that matter? Or just too low on life? It's nice to have another option. I really think this card is what Pitch Long needed beacuse it felt like the deck needed more draw.

[diopter]

What if you dont have enough cards in your graveyard though? what if you just played Timetwister? What if you just played Yawgmoths Will for that matter? Or just too low on life? It's nice to have another option. I really think this card is what Pitch Long needed beacuse it felt like the deck needed more draw.

Pitch Long does not need a conditional draw spell at 6cc though (and Bargain is not conditional in most realistic gamestates). If you need a draw spell, play Infernal Contract. It costs half as much mana, won't kill you unless you're at one life, and you draw four cards right now, no strings attached.

[Liam-K]

I saw this card yesterday and i allready tried to build something with culling the weak. What I've come up to is the following:
This cards is damn good, if u can efford it! Every FUC**** card is a cantrip with this out. I tried it with the 0-Mana-Artifact-Critters, but it's still nuts, as soon as it's out. I did not need ANY will goldfishing like 30games. But, i fear a Deck monoB is not good, playing this. I ran Bargain also, but the Deck benefit's far more from a Null Profusion.

I don't see, why this card should be bad, because u CAN get so much mana in one turn with the rituals and ESG's and whatsoever else. Whe casting costs are not the problem of Bargain either, right? So why should they make Null Profusion sooo bad? CC5 would be redibulus, because there are so many ways to get 5 mana, so 6 is quite ok.

I'm still not saying, that this card will definitly change Vintage, but I, for myself, will at least build some Decks arround it, because I'm very sure this card is worth some tries!

So long(<-- ),

GexxX

Magus of the jar.dec has a pretty respectable goldfish too.  Problem is it's bloody awful.  Just because you can make a deck combo out doesn't mean it can win against opponents that play cards.

[GexxX]

Pitch Long does not need a conditional draw spell at 6cc though (and Bargain is not conditional in most realistic gamestates). If you need a draw spell, play Infernal Contract. It costs half as much mana, won't kill you unless you're at one life, and you draw four cards right now, no strings attached.

Thats not the point for grim-long i guess. Imperial Seal, Vampiric, Grims, FoW's(necropotence,Bargain,crypt, vault). These are the Spells that cost u life. If u add the Contract it might not change a thing for you, but still after contract resolves you have ~10 life left which is way enought for going off, or not. But the Contract can't be paid by offcolor, which makes it pretty bad for scenarios with Sol Ring, crypt, vault, offcolor mox(en) and maybe ESG.
So what can the Draw4 if u cant pay it. I know this scenario might be seldom.
Again: I'm not saying Null P. is crazy or nuts or something, but what if u build a Deck arround it? What happened with gifts ungiven? no one included it, first, but when gift's was invented, the deck was soo good. What I'm wondering about is, wether this might happen with the profusion, or if it's just too bad.

[diopter]

Pitch Long does not need a conditional draw spell at 6cc though (and Bargain is not conditional in most realistic gamestates). If you need a draw spell, play Infernal Contract. It costs half as much mana, won't kill you unless you're at one life, and you draw four cards right now, no strings attached.

Thats not the point for grim-long i guess. Imperial Seal, Vampiric, Grims, FoW's(necropotence,Bargain,crypt, vault). These are the Spells that cost u life. If u add the Contract it might not change a thing for you, but still after contract resolves you have ~10 life left which is way enought for going off, or not. But the Contract can't be paid by offcolor, which makes it pretty bad for scenarios with Sol Ring, crypt, vault, offcolor mox(en) and maybe ESG.
So what can the Draw4 if u cant pay it. I know this scenario might be seldom.
Again: I'm not saying Null P. is crazy or nuts or something, but what if u build a Deck arround it? What happened with gifts ungiven? no one included it, first, but when gift's was invented, the deck was soo good. What I'm wondering about is, wether this might happen with the profusion, or if it's just too bad.

By all means, feel free to build around Null Profusion. It might be interesting to see what kind of deck pops up. But, if you are going to just add Null P. as a singleton in Long, then it is underwhelming. It's not a good fit in Long.

[OfficeShredder]

The problem with null profusion in long is often bargain comes out with land, lotus, ritual, bargain (or something even more card intensive), which leaves you with three cards in hand and no mana sources.  With bargain, you have the ability to just draw five moxen and drop a ton more spells right there; with null profusion you have to discard a card and hope you don't hit a land or force of will when cycling.

[Hydra]

You would almost certainly have to build a deck around this card in order to get it to function properly as a combo deck.  I'm sure Recycle decks had been tried in the past without much success, so the question becomes whether or not moving the card to black makes it playable.  You do get the ability to Ritual it out, but personally I'd rather be using my Rituals to cast spells that "win now" as opposed to something that needs you to continue playing spells.

If you are going to build a deck around it, I'd recommend looking at decks like GWS's Man Plan Long list or the French KI.TT for ideas on how to absolute cheap spells and mana generation with those spells.

[Godder]

By the time you've generated 6 mana, you're probably generating more than that and are thus able to go Grim Tutor -> Yawgmoth's Will and set up a Tendrils of Agony kill. If you've got 7 mana instead of 6, you can play Grim Tutor -> Yawgmoth's Will, replay everything and then go Grim Tutor -> Tendrils of Agony and win. Consequently, you may as well just play GrimLong or something similar.

[LotusHead]

I thought maximum hand size just referred to what you have to discard down to at the discard phase.  Is it a more literal meaning in that you're not allowed to go over two cards?

I'm not sure anyone answered this, but Max Hand Size is only relevent at the end of your turn. If you manage to draw say, 6 cards (having 8 in hand at some point), that is fine.  Just discard down to two at EOT.

[EnialisLiadon]

I thought maximum hand size just referred to what you have to discard down to at the discard phase.  Is it a more literal meaning in that you're not allowed to go over two cards?

I'm not sure anyone answered this, but Max Hand Size is only relevent at the end of your turn. If you manage to draw say, 6 cards (having 8 in hand at some point), that is fine.  Just discard down to two at EOT.

Thanks.  I just checked rules questions over at SCG under Recycle and Thought Devourer--finding that yes indeed: max hand size is just what you discard down to.  This new learning doesn't do much for its playability in vintage, though.

[netherspirit]

I've been using this in combination with Academy Rector, I know it sounds stupid, but it's insane! I'm about to post the deck I've been building in the Vintage Improvement Forum; pity the kill condition needs smoothing out though.

Anyway, this card has been working out nicely for me; it makes every card much more powerful purely because of their new found cantripiness. (Wow, cantripiness... What a cool word! Even if it doesn't actually exist ).

I think this card has a lot of potential, but you need to think outside the box to realise just what can be done with it.

  netherspirit

EDIT: Here's the thread if anyone's interested. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31835.msg458595#msg458595