Laquatus' Will (timeshifted Yawgmoth's Will)

[vartemis]

Laquatus' Will

Instant

Discard your hand.
Until the end of turn, you may play cards in your graveyard. If a card would be put into your graveyard this turn, remove it from the game instead.

At the beginning of the next upkeep, remove your graveyard from the game.

What would you pay for such power?

Current version:
Laquatus' Will

Instant

Discard your hand.
Until the end of turn, you may play cards in your graveyard. If a card would be put into your graveyard this turn, remove it from the game instead.

At the beginning of the next upkeep, remove your graveyard from the game.

What would you pay for such power?


I think the casting cost makes it harder to splash for combo, yet is in flavor with other Laquatus cards that require double color.  The instant ability is a trade off for the fact that you loose your hand and your graveyard, so you have to go off that turn.  It also alows blue to cast counter spells and react to something your opponent is doing.

Is it too powerful?

j

[Norm4eva]

Well, it's an Instant speed Yawg Will so.... YES?!
Seriously.  You have played across the table from High Tide once or twice, yesh?  Giving them a Will is disgusting.  Giving the format another copy of Will is disgusting.  I don't think this flies.

[The Atog Lord]

Yawgmoth's Will is probably the biggest mistake Wizards has printed in a long time. This new version is an instant, pitches to Force of Will, and can be fetched through Merchant Scroll. The fact that you lose your hand and graveyard afterwards is neither here nor there, as most games won't get that far.

This card cannot see print. It would ruin every format it's in until Wizards banned/restricted it. And Vintage would never be the same.

[vartemis]

Ok.  What if it goes back to a sorcery and change the casting cost to ?  I really want to make a will that seems fair and works.  The card premise is good, it was just poorly executed.  After getting my morning coffee, I can see how unbalanced the first one was, and High tide totally skipped my mind.

j

[zeus-online]

Make it cost 4BBBBB and then perhaps it can be printed....oh and make it destroy all your permanents as a cost

Will is nutz, printing more of them is just plain crazy.

/Zeus

[The Atog Lord]

I really want to make a will that seems fair and works.

Regrowth is about as fair a Yawgmoth's Will as should be printed. And even that's restricted.
Yawgmoth's Will lets you have nearly unbounded card advantage for three mana.
The other option would be to make it a punisher card -- costing BBB and anyone can counter it by paying 4 life.
The mechanic itself is so broken that it would be very difficult to make fair.

[Norm4eva]

If you want a 'fixed Will' we have Sins of the Past, from Ravnica Block.
Look, of all the cards in Vintage, Yawgmoth's Will gets brought up more often than any as a genuine candidate for BANNING.  It doesn't just get itself restricted, but it restricts the cards that find it (Burning Wish, though Tinker may have helped with that).  There's just not a fair way to mimic its effect, save putting hard limits on how many spells you get to dig out from the 'yard.  As an example, where Yawg Will costs 2B, Sins of the Past costs 4BB and only gives you one card.

[Elric]

Make it cost 4BBBBB and then perhaps it can be printed....oh and make it destroy all your permanents as a cost

I'll go out on a limb here and say that if Wizards printed a new version of Will at 4BBBBB (with no drawbacks), it not only wouldn't need to be restricted, it wouldn't even see play.  But it is probably the single card in magic that is the most undercosted (Contract from Below being another good example here).  You aren't going to create a fixed Will unless you add at least 4 mana to its casting cost.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Instead of Timeshifting it from Planar Chaos, you could Timeshift it from Time Spiral.  You could do it like the "fixed" Time Walk, Wheel of Fortune, etc. and give it a suspend of some retarded number of turns.  Then have it be so that during your upkeep while it's suspended you shuffle a card from your graveyard into your library or remove it from the game or something.  I don't know what the suspend cost would be--2B for five or six turns?

Actually, even then it might still be too good.

[chrissss]

what about



Remove your library from the game. until the end of turn, you may play cards from your graveyard. cards played from the graveyard are removed from the game when they resolve.

not sure about the wording, but do you see where I am getting at?

[Liam-K]

You realize that "discard your hand" happens first, then you play a graveyard full of draw spells and finish the effect with like a million cards in hand, right?  That is, if the game gets to the end of the turn.

No.  Just no.

[zeus-online]

Make it cost 4BBBBB and then perhaps it can be printed....oh and make it destroy all your permanents as a cost

I'll go out on a limb here and say that if Wizards printed a new version of Will at 4BBBBB (with no drawbacks), it not only wouldn't need to be restricted, it wouldn't even see play.  But it is probably the single card in magic that is the most undercosted (Contract from Below being another good example here).  You aren't going to create a fixed Will unless you add at least 4 mana to its casting cost.

Oh i agree! Just pointing out that a reprint would have to have a stupid mana cost and possibly even more to keep it "fair".

Just look at A. Recall..they had to make it cost 2UU and make it a sorcery for it to be "fair".

/Zeus

[diopter]

Make it cost 4BBBBB and then perhaps it can be printed....oh and make it destroy all your permanents as a cost

I'll go out on a limb here and say that if Wizards printed a new version of Will at 4BBBBB (with no drawbacks), it not only wouldn't need to be restricted, it wouldn't even see play.  But it is probably the single card in magic that is the most undercosted (Contract from Below being another good example here).  You aren't going to create a fixed Will unless you add at least 4 mana to its casting cost.

Oh i agree! Just pointing out that a reprint would have to have a stupid mana cost and possibly even more to keep it "fair".

Just look at A. Recall..they had to make it cost 2UU and make it a sorcery for it to be "fair".

/Zeus

Ancestral Recall isn't a broken effect though - it's just grossly undercosted. Yawgmoth's Will is a broken effect - being able to play everything out of your graveyard in one turn, especially in a game that has evolved to contain multiple mana accelerants that find their way to your graveyard after being cast, is a grossly powerful effect. The solutions that WotC has come up with - namely, Yawgmoth's Agenda and Sins of the Past - acknowledge that the only really practical way to make this effect fair is to be able to play only one card out of the graveyard per turn.

[Norm4eva]

This is roughly akin to the "Win the Game" cards that inevitably show up every few months.  They're incredibly hard to fairly cost because their effect is significant and literally game-ending.

[OfficeShredder]

What if it only let you play instants from your graveyard and cost 3BU or something?

[Elric]

Make it cost 4BBBBB and then perhaps it can be printed....oh and make it destroy all your permanents as a cost

I'll go out on a limb here and say that if Wizards printed a new version of Will at 4BBBBB (with no drawbacks), it not only wouldn't need to be restricted, it wouldn't even see play.  But it is probably the single card in magic that is the most undercosted (Contract from Below being another good example here).  You aren't going to create a fixed Will unless you add at least 4 mana to its casting cost.

Oh i agree! Just pointing out that a reprint would have to have a stupid mana cost and possibly even more to keep it "fair".

Just look at A. Recall..they had to make it cost 2UU and make it a sorcery for it to be "fair".

/Zeus

I wonder to what extent our perceptions of card power are influenced by the colors that dominate type 1.  Ancestral Recall is blue, and blue is the most powerful color and the color best equipped to take advantage of instant-speed card-drawing.  Would Harmonize (2GG Concentrate) have been too powerful as an instant?  Certainly not in type 1- it wouldn't even see play.  If Wizards printed a new Yawgmoth's Will at 2WWGG (which they obviously wouldn't do), would this card be too powerful for type 1?  It might be easier to stick to using the restricted 2B version.  Anonther question: if Yag Will was erratad to cost 2WWGG to cast (say, for "help the good guys" day), how would that impact type 1?

[Godder]

This is roughly akin to the "Win the Game" cards that inevitably show up every few months.  They're incredibly hard to fairly cost because their effect is significant and literally game-ending.

QFT.

As a side note, Sins of the Past paying for the card makes it not as awful as it seems. Regrowth is restricted, but Recollect isn't, so Regrowth obviously isn't a very good comparison either. Also, 'discard your hand' isn't much good as a restriction - just put 'remove your hand and library from the game' if you must go down that route. However, restricting the card type that can be played seems the easiest restriction while also creating a useful card. It could even become a cycle like the Wishes!

White - Enchantments
Green - Creatures/Lands
Red - Sorceries
Blue - Instants
Black - not sure about Black.

[Norm4eva]

That's a very interesting idea Godder!  I think Green ought to be lands and Black creatures, since creature recursion is almost entirely Black (blah Resurrection blah blah Dredge woof).
Re: Yawg Will @ 2WWGG... there's so many ways to just fix mana, or via other cards play cards without paying costs, that another copy of Yawg Will would never actually cost its real mana cost.  Maybe it wouldn't do anything in Standard or even Extended, but the Eternals can just break it.  DSC has an alternate cost of 2U, right?  From a strict "break the card" perspective there doesn't need to be any difference between 2B and 2WWGG.

[andrewpate]

To follow tradition, black would be identical to the others only it would allow you to play any type of card and carry some additional drawback (e.g. Vampiric Tutor, Death Wish).  Of course, that would result in the same type of card that the original post was attempting to create.  So a cycle is not really a solution to the problem, unless you can come up with something else for black to do.

Of course, you could always make the cycle without a black card.  Incomplete cycles are not entirely without precedent, and let's be fair:  there's a long-standing tradition of black getting the best or one of the best cards in cycles like this.  It's roughly akin to every cycle having a stupid lifegain card that's by far the worst one (with the isolated exception of the Pulses) and that always goes to white or green.

Another big problem is still present, though:  Sorceries and Instants are inherently the strongest card types to use with this kind of effect.  The blue one can generate tons of mana with replayed ritual effects (even in Type 2!) and the red one replays all kinds of broken bombs.  Just look at how much play Cunning Wish and Burning Wish see (in every format) compared to the other 3 wishes.  My suggestion would be to cost the white and green ones very aggressively in comparison to the red and blue ones, and you might even consider adding artifacts to the white one (although Golden Wish was costed to oblivion, so there is apparently some fear about Enlightened Tutor effects).  I wonder if some deck might be designed to Dredge up a full yard, cast the White Will, play Fastbond, Crucible, and Zuran Orb out of it for just 3G, and go off.  If so, is that too dangerous?  These cards are clearly ripe for abuse and wouldn't take very large errors in development to get out of hand.  They fall into that sort of "broken or useless" limbo like Mycosynth Golem, Warp World, etc.  Is it worth making a whole cycle like that?

[zeus-online]

Make it cost 4BBBBB and then perhaps it can be printed....oh and make it destroy all your permanents as a cost

I'll go out on a limb here and say that if Wizards printed a new version of Will at 4BBBBB (with no drawbacks), it not only wouldn't need to be restricted, it wouldn't even see play.  But it is probably the single card in magic that is the most undercosted (Contract from Below being another good example here).  You aren't going to create a fixed Will unless you add at least 4 mana to its casting cost.

Oh i agree! Just pointing out that a reprint would have to have a stupid mana cost and possibly even more to keep it "fair".

Just look at A. Recall..they had to make it cost 2UU and make it a sorcery for it to be "fair".

/Zeus

Ancestral Recall isn't a broken effect though - it's just grossly undercosted. Yawgmoth's Will is a broken effect - being able to play everything out of your graveyard in one turn, especially in a game that has evolved to contain multiple mana accelerants that find their way to your graveyard after being cast, is a grossly powerful effect. The solutions that WotC has come up with - namely, Yawgmoth's Agenda and Sins of the Past - acknowledge that the only really practical way to make this effect fair is to be able to play only one card out of the graveyard per turn.

Urh yeah, but cataclysm is a broken effect aswell...the card itself is ofcourse not broken because of the mana cost!
There are tons of broken effects in the game, but that does not make the card "broken".
For a card to be broken it must have a very good effect, or perhaps even a busted one...and a low enough mana cost that its worth playing with the card in the first place...or something which allows you to cheat on the mana cost.

/Zeus

[diopter]

To follow tradition, black would be identical to the others only it would allow you to play any type of card and carry some additional drawback (e.g. Vampiric Tutor, Death Wish).  Of course, that would result in the same type of card that the original post was attempting to create.  So a cycle is not really a solution to the problem, unless you can come up with something else for black to do.

Of course, you could always make the cycle without a black card.  Incomplete cycles are not entirely without precedent, and let's be fair:  there's a long-standing tradition of black getting the best or one of the best cards in cycles like this.  It's roughly akin to every cycle having a stupid lifegain card that's by far the worst one (with the isolated exception of the Pulses) and that always goes to white or green.

Another big problem is still present, though:  Sorceries and Instants are inherently the strongest card types to use with this kind of effect.  The blue one can generate tons of mana with replayed ritual effects (even in Type 2!) and the red one replays all kinds of broken bombs.  Just look at how much play Cunning Wish and Burning Wish see (in every format) compared to the other 3 wishes.  My suggestion would be to cost the white and green ones very aggressively in comparison to the red and blue ones, and you might even consider adding artifacts to the white one (although Golden Wish was costed to oblivion, so there is apparently some fear about Enlightened Tutor effects).  I wonder if some deck might be designed to Dredge up a full yard, cast the White Will, play Fastbond, Crucible, and Zuran Orb out of it for just 3G, and go off.  If so, is that too dangerous?  These cards are clearly ripe for abuse and wouldn't take very large errors in development to get out of hand.  They fall into that sort of "broken or useless" limbo like Mycosynth Golem, Warp World, etc.  Is it worth making a whole cycle like that?

@ Andrewpate,

That White Will of which you speak would totally not be broken (in Vintage, anyway). If you can dredge up your whole gravehard in that way, you'd rather play Recoup + Yawg Will and go off. Alternatively, you'd rather use Replenish to resurrect Pandeburst or something than a white Will.

I think that your idea is sound - since Black already has a YawgWill, why not make an incomplete cycle of the other color's "fixed Wills"?

Edit:

Make it cost 4BBBBB and then perhaps it can be printed....oh and make it destroy all your permanents as a cost

I'll go out on a limb here and say that if Wizards printed a new version of Will at 4BBBBB (with no drawbacks), it not only wouldn't need to be restricted, it wouldn't even see play. But it is probably the single card in magic that is the most undercosted (Contract from Below being another good example here). You aren't going to create a fixed Will unless you add at least 4 mana to its casting cost.

Oh i agree! Just pointing out that a reprint would have to have a stupid mana cost and possibly even more to keep it "fair".

Just look at A. Recall..they had to make it cost 2UU and make it a sorcery for it to be "fair".

/Zeus

Ancestral Recall isn't a broken effect though - it's just grossly undercosted. Yawgmoth's Will is a broken effect - being able to play everything out of your graveyard in one turn, especially in a game that has evolved to contain multiple mana accelerants that find their way to your graveyard after being cast, is a grossly powerful effect. The solutions that WotC has come up with - namely, Yawgmoth's Agenda and Sins of the Past - acknowledge that the only really practical way to make this effect fair is to be able to play only one card out of the graveyard per turn.

Urh yeah, but cataclysm is a broken effect aswell...the card itself is ofcourse not broken because of the mana cost!
There are tons of broken effects in the game, but that does not make the card "broken".
For a card to be broken it must have a very good effect, or perhaps even a busted one...and a low enough mana cost that its worth playing with the card in the first place...or something which allows you to cheat on the mana cost.

/Zeus

Some effects may be too broken regardless of the mana cost. "Win the game" is one... it can be argued that "resurrect your entire graveyard in one turn" is another. Imagine if you printed a Yawgmoth's Will at say, 7BB. Holy crap, one says, that is a crap card! And then someone decides to put it in an Extended deck with accelerants, Gifts Ungiven, Spellweaver Helix, etc. etc. etc. It would have the potential for breaking.

(and before anyone brings it up, I know it'd have to compete with Mind's Desire... I'm just sayin', somebody could break an overcosted Yawgmoth's Will, just because the effect is that powerful).

[zeus-online]

Oh...! now we are back to "Would you play a 20 damage fireball with split second for 20R?" (from some other topic)...

"Win the game" is strong, but at certain mana costs its quite fair...most X spells have the potential to end the game, and yet they generally don't see play.

I honestly don't believe that there are any effects which cannot be neutered by costing it correctly.

Lets all look at Gleemax and laugh 

/Zeus

[diopter]

Oh...! now we are back to "Would you play a 20 damage fireball with split second for 20R?" (from some other topic)...

"Win the game" is strong, but at certain mana costs its quite fair...most X spells have the potential to end the game, and yet they generally don't see play.

I honestly don't believe that there are any effects which cannot be neutered by costing it correctly.

Lets all look at Gleemax and laugh 

/Zeus

X spells are inherently fair, because the rules of the game force you to play them from hand, with mana, if you want X > 0.

A spell that says "win the game" for any mana cost, without any other drawbacks, is inherently unfair because there are many ways to cheat them onto the stack without paying that mana cost. Sins of the Past being one that comes to my mind, Spellweaver Helix being another.

[zeus-online]

I disagree.

It's just a matter of correctly costing it, even if that includes additional costs like removing your library, discarding your hand.

And if the card actually becomes good because of some other card, then it really isn't the "win game" cards fault...

You aren't blaming DSC because tinker exists, now are you?

/Zeus

[OfficeShredder]

That's a very interesting idea Godder!  I think Green ought to be lands and Black creatures, since creature recursion is almost entirely Black (blah Resurrection blah blah Dredge woof).

Because it's totally fair to let green play that whole one land per turn from his graveyard while blue casts 3x seething song for dragonstorm  :lol:

Stop being R&D and start letting green get decent cards dude (unless green came with a fastbond effect attached or something)!

[silvernail]

What about something like:

Laquatus' Will X X U U
Instant

Remove X cards in your graveyard from the game.Until end of turn you may play those cards as if they were in your hand, but only once for each card removed this way.

[Norm4eva]

Yeah, I guess I forgot about how you'd have to specifically state that the Green one would have a 'Fastbond clause'.  That'd actually be one of the better ones in the cycle, since you could recur like... every Wasteland, fetchland and cycling land in the 'yard.

[Anusien]

Yeah, I guess I forgot about how you'd have to specifically state that the Green one would have a 'Fastbond clause'.  That'd actually be one of the better ones in the cycle, since you could recur like... every Wasteland, fetchland and cycling land in the 'yard.

Would you give all 4 a clause like that?

Because it's totally fair to let green play that whole one land per turn from his graveyard while blue casts 3x seething song for dragonstorm  :lol:

Stop being R&D and start letting green get decent cards dude (unless green came with a fastbond effect attached or something)!

Chill dude.  While it's relevant to point out an inequity between the cards in a cycle, this sort of commentary helps no one, and obscures creating interesting cards.

By the way, with it a broken cycle (hello Mirage/Visions tutors!), can we give Green creatures and lands, and mirror the Judgement wishes?
Blue: Instants
Red: Sorceries
White: Artifacts and Enchantments
Green: Creatures and Lands

[OfficeShredder]

Chill dude.  While it's relevant to point out an inequity between the cards in a cycle, this sort of commentary helps no one, and obscures creating interesting cards.

?

A.) Sarcasm, denoted clearly by the  :lol:

B.) Note I did contribute greatly by completing the description of the cards effect.

White would be the one with the problem then, since:

A.) Artifacts and enchantments don't die very often
B.) White already has replenish, which is probably superior
C.) Artifacts and enchantments are expensive

I don't see how giving all four a fastbond clause helps, since only green's lets you play lands

[Norm4eva]

You wouldn't have to give all of them a "Fastbond" or "Exploration" clause or whatever; you can already play as many spells per turn as you can pay for.  That's why the Green one would have the most potential for application, in my estimation anyway; a deck like 45Land.dec would go uber-Crucible for one turn and Time Walk the shit out of you.  Works pretty well with Armageddon too.