Black Stax (OR the viability of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth)

[Enzo90910]

WhiteWolf:"Factorys are even better in this deck than in other Stax decks. They block, they are free attackers under Void, they give mana, they work great with Gate to Phyrexia (and CoW)"

I am convinced now that they make a good kill. Still, 4 of seems too many to me.

WhiteWolf:"Chains of Mephistopheles: It's most powerful plus is its non-artifact status I guess. Handy against those Brainstorms digging for answers. Never tested these. Kills the "Mirage Tutor/Brainstorm" play."

This one sounds like  a great idea. A cheap non-artefact lock component. I will try to get some of those in my list.

WhiteWolf:"- Defense Grid: Counterspells proved to be a great pain in the ass, especially with 'big' spells like Smokestack and Void. This could be pretty good I think. If you can slip this one through you can be sure to lay down some locks undisturbed the next turns."

I'd rather play more lock components and have some of them countered than a counter-counter artifact like this one, which seems too situational.

Sphere of Resistance seems great too, but it's an artefact. I would keep the Vampiric for Strip Mine tutoring purposes.

From Bob's last list:
--
-1 Tomb of Urami
-1 Mishra's Factory
-1 Yawgmoth's Will
-1 Smokestack
-1 Wasteland

+ 3 Chains of mephistopheles
+ 1 God's Eye
+ 1 Crucible
--

[Arsenal_Fan]

I have got one question for the mana base of this deck. Would some quantity of fetchlands be better suited such as

2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

instead of the 4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? Is the loss of life equal (Bloodstained) to the Legendary status (Urborg)?

[yespuhyren]

From Bob's last list:
--
-1 Tomb of Urami
-1 Mishra's Factory
-1 Yawgmoth's Will
-1 Smokestack
-1 Wasteland

+ 3 Chains of mephistopheles
+ 1 God's Eye
+ 1 Crucible
--

I hope that isn't something you would ever consider doing.  There has basically been two forms of mono black stax, there is mine, and others at the moment. 

Mine plays Chains of Mephistopheles
Others play Bazaar

There is a reason you can't mix the two.

[Bob The Builder]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The locks are very strong when resolved (Braids and Void I mean). That's why my testing against non-counter decks goes alot better  Wink. And that's why I thought about Defense Grid. At least sideboard, maybe even main. What do you think?

 I agree with an earlier post that stated I would rather add more lockpieces than look for a way to stop the counters coming...

@ Yespuhyren talking to ENZO:  I'm glad you pointed it out, I was about to hit the reply button, but reading these forums often enough learned me not to skip posts before hitting that reply button.  Chains and bazaars are not a good mix !!

@ Arsenal_Fan: don't include fetches, in my oppinion they will find nothing...  Since there is no swamp in the deck and I don't think Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth's effect goes for the lands in your library (or elsewhere but in play for that matter)...  I could be wrong there, but I would give a fierce fight to prove I'm not...

EDIT:  At the moment I'm testing my last deck with minor changes to see what version is best, I could go back to where I came form though...
- Yawgmoth's Will
- 2 Braid's

+3 Night's Whisper

[madmanmike25]

I would opt for Bazaar over Chains of Mephistopheles.  This lets you play 4 Urborgs and multiple Nether Voids.  And last I checked Chains wasn't that great against tutors(what most of the format is using).

@Whitewolf- How has BlackStax compared to Mono Red or even MUD Stax for that matter? I still think Goblin Welder > Dark Confidant any day of the week in a Stax deck.  But, if you are running Black, I can see no reason at all to cut Vamp Tutor, you could even add Imperial Seal.  4 Crucibles + 4 Stripmine(after 3 tutors)= good. 

@All-  To me it just seems that BlackStax has little way of coming back if the opponent has a busted first turn.  Or at least 'little' compared with not being able to utilize Goblin Welder to manipulate the board.  Not to mention that Welder grants you immunity to Tinker-> Colossus and gets past counterspells.  Plus he makes good ashtrays.  Sorry, but I just think Red makes a better Stax deck.  

One last thing:  This is a different version of Stax I know, but has it tested better or even 'as good as' Uba or 5c Stax?  Not trying to squash anyones deck either.  What do you guys say?

[Bob The Builder]

I would opt for Bazaar over Chains of Mephistopheles.  This lets you play 4 Urborgs and multiple Nether Voids.  And last I checked Chains wasn't that great against tutors(what most of the format is using).

@Whitewolf- How has BlackStax compared to Mono Red or even MUD Stax for that matter? I still think Goblin Welder > Dark Confidant any day of the week in a Stax deck.  But, if you are running Black, I can see no reason at all to cut Vamp Tutor, you could even add Imperial Seal.  4 Crucibles + 4 Stripmine(after 3 tutors)= good. 

@All-  To me it just seems that BlackStax has little way of coming back if the opponent has a busted first turn.  Or at least 'little' compared with not being able to utilize Goblin Welder to manipulate the board.  Not to mention that Welder grants you immunity to Tinker-> Colossus and gets past counterspells.  Plus he makes good ashtrays.  Sorry, but I just think Red makes a better Stax deck. 

One last thing:  This is a different version of Stax I know, but has it tested better or even 'as good as' Uba or 5c Stax?  Not trying to squash anyones deck either.  What do you guys say?

I think you will find someone saying he believes the red-stax version is the best atm in an earlier post and I agree (for the same reasons you put up).  But I still like the Idea to test other versions, maybe we stumble upon something uber-broken, who knows?

[Dralock]

Ok, threw it together:

1. braids is unnecessary.
2. chains is not that great unless you are playing fish or tog. (this means I tried both versions, was bored)
3. Tinker->colossus->death
4. Rifstone portal saved me a lot as I was able to produce colored mana. Having to rely on it because the deck is filled with +1 CC cards instead of artifacts leaves play at a disadvantage.
5. I liked yawg's will. Thats about it.

Cheers.

[yespuhyren]

Black Stax is cool.  I'll stick to my Mono R and just throw in 1/2 Urborgs.

[yespuhyren]

And honestly, the biggest weakness of Black Stax has yet to be talked about, and I can't figure out why this point has not been discussed in great detail, as it IS the Achilles Heel of the deck.  CREATURES!  If your opponent resolves ANY creature, except for making them lose the creature to Braids or Smokestack, you have no other way to deal with them.  Creature hordes are a HUGE problem for this deck.  Regadless, I've completely stopped testing it altogether and have gone back to RFG: The Jester

[Bob The Builder]

Regadless, I've completely stopped testing it altogether and have gone back to RFG: The Jester

I must admit I've lost interest in this deck after getting punched in the nose too much in my control heavy meta testing area...
By the way, is there a nurse here?  I need someone to look at this nosebleed I got... 

[Judge_Julez]

Hi from the UK,

I have been testing BlackStax for nearly 2 years now; and had to abandon it in favour of 5cStax some time ago;
now obviously it's raised it's head again due to the TOMB; and I am glad to see some players are
I'll post a decklist once I've looked at my build again, Currently it's BGW, but I am not happy as there seems to be a lack of synergy and I think it's a 5cStax and Balck competing at the moment.
In the meantime, here are some of my conclusions:-

Braids - very hard to cast, very hard to keep around. I am not surprised players have found problems with this card. She appears to be awesome, but is pretty much open to every counter and every creature kill out there.
I found a replacement in CULLING SCALES; which obviously is not as good as Smokestack, but its a LOT faster in its inception, and at least you get to start targeting; as well as pretty much not having to sacrifice your own permanents in many games.
I have even taken the steps to removing ALL off-colour Moxen (!!!) and putting in 4x Serum Powder after looking at the Manaless Ichorid Tech. This does help massively with mulligan consistency to get the right deal;
 - - - this is a huge rework of the mechanics, I know, but take a look and see how the higher casting cost artifacts simply rip into any lower casting cost stuff on the other side of the table;
the only weak match-up is against HIGHTIDE; which you pretty much have to change a large portion of the deck into s/b tech of IN-THE-EYE-OF-CHAOS, DEFENCE GRID etc.

Null Rod - Universally this appears to be found to be a useless card in playtesting (on all MUD and STAX Forum threads I have looked at). It does NOTHING against SolidarityHighTide, and doesnt seem to slow down the STORMing combo players all that much. I dont like to see it, and it's Chalice that is the deciding artifact, not Null Rod.  - - - With NULL ROD out of the way, it opens up for MEMORY JAR and use of the SERUM POWDERS as mana sources

Bazaar of Baghdad - I have used [4] on and off in the deck, but there seems to be more synergy with RIFTSTONE PORTAL over the TOMB; and I think this would generate a wholly different decklist with BALANCE, and CROP ROTATION, FASTBOND + ZURAN ORB + CRUCIBLE combo, (which I have used with GREED for some bizarre wins, but that build is not consitent)
That sort of list is inherently not black; and I like the discussion tech of Gate to Phyrexia to keep the deck on the dark side.

Sideboard Stuff
vs Creatures - Ive noticed the talk of CALTROPS and I am willing to try this in the sideboard slot that my WATCHDOGs currently occupy as it shuts down Ichorid, as well as dealing with annoying Goblin Tokens from EtW, as well as keeping Bob and Welders at bay

-Judge-Jules-

[madmanmike25]

Braids - very hard to cast, very hard to keep around. I am not surprised players have found problems with this card. She appears to be awesome, but is pretty much open to every counter and every creature kill out there.

First off, Hello!
I think you are right about Braids, Smokestack players have been searching for a similar ability for a long time now and have come up empty handed.  2BB isn't that great.  It's not horrible mind you, just not optimal.  We need another artifact with a similar ability.

I found a replacement in CULLING SCALES; which obviously is not as good as Smokestack, but its a LOT faster in its inception, and at least you get to start targeting; as well as pretty much not having to sacrifice your own permanents in many games.

I tried out Cullilng Scales.  It's randomly decent, and randomly horrible.  You can't lay it down first or you just pop off your own moxen.  It also has bad synergy with Chalice @ anything.  Since most decks do(and should) run 4 chalice it doesn't work too well.  I will say this, it's good againsts Fish decks.  It takes out quite a few critters before it destroys itself.

I have even taken the steps to removing ALL off-colour Moxen (!!!) and putting in 4x Serum Powder after looking at the Manaless Ichorid Tech. This does help massively with mulligan consistency to get the right deal;

Since you are playing a Stax deck with artifacts, you really NEED to keep all the Moxen in.  If you don't own them, thats acceptable.  But trading out mox for Serum Powder sounds....well, bad.  Not saying Serum Powder is bad, just that mox are better any day of the week.  Try taking something else out for Serum Powder.

Null Rod - Universally this appears to be found to be a useless card in playtesting (on all MUD and STAX Forum threads I have looked at). It does NOTHING against SolidarityHighTide, and doesnt seem to slow down the STORMing combo players all that much. I dont like to see it, and it's Chalice that is the deciding artifact, not Null Rod.  - - - With NULL ROD out of the way, it opens up for MEMORY JAR and use of the SERUM POWDERS as mana sources

I can't agree with your opinion of Null Rod, especially the part about it not hurting storm combo that much.  To the combo player useless Moxen = Bad.  Yeah, you can't run both Powders and Memory Jar with Null Rod.  But for 2 mana it's really a great hoser, don't underestimate it.  Do you see a lot of HighTide decks in the UK?

I think most of the people who sufficiently tested out Black Stax have found that MonoRed(Uba) or 4/5c stax just work better.  Hope any of that helps.

Mike