Black Stax (OR the viability of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth)

[WhiteWolf]

With the new set coming out, as a Stax player I’m personally looking forward the most to this card :


Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Legendary Land

Each land is a Swamp in aadition to its other land types.


Many Stax players already have contemplated the inclusion of this card in Stax, especially in the “new” B/R versions. I wonder however if this card could make a monoblack version viable.

I always loved the power of Nether Void and Braids, Cabal Minion as lock pieces (in a vacuum) but their casting costs prohibited them from seeing much play in Stax. First, they're fairly expensive and "slow" because you can’t use Workshop to pay for them. Second, Braids has a double black cost wich makes it even more difficult to cast.

I’m wondering and especially hoping Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth will solve these problems or at least make them lighter. It would make Workshop, Wasteland, Bazaar, … able to pay for Void and Braids. On top of that it would make it a little easier to pay for Nether Voids extra 3.

Here’s a first idea:

Nicotine Stax

3 Dark Confidant
3 Braids, Cabal Minion (Smokestack 5-7)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
4 Sphere of Resistance (questionable because it makes Void and Braids harder to cast and is superfluous with Void out)
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
3 Nether Void (this seems insane when you can get it down)

1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

3 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 Darkblast

4 Cabal Pit
4 Mishra’s Workshop
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard

3 Maze of Ith
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Duress
4 Extirpate (nice with Duress, Wasteland, Smokestack/Braids)
1 Crucible of Worlds


Do you think with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth a black Stax or at least the inclusion of Nether Void and Braids becomes possible?

WhiteWolf

[lordmayhem]

You have 12 lands which do not produce black, along with 4 moxen and a sol ring which do not produce black, making a total of 17 non-black sources. You have 6 lands which produce black, 1 mox and a lotus which produce black, making a total of 8 black sources. Counting Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, that makes 11 black sources. You have 13 black spells, 3 of which require double-black.

This doesn't look too bad. Have you tested this? Does it ever feel like you're using Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as a crutch?

[WhiteWolf]

@ lordmayhem: Those non-black mana-sources are fairly uncuttable. I already dropped Mana Crypt and Mana Vault. Maybe a few swamps and/or an extra Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth could be added. I have to admit that the list I provided is untested but it just serves as a starting point and example. I mainly started this discussion to research the viability of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in Stax and more precisely Black Stax in that it could open the possibility to Nether Void and Braids, two very strong lock pieces in my eyes. I'm sure there's something to say about Urborg making the inclusion of different 3cc (and 4cc) enchantment/creature lock pieces more viable.

WhiteWolf

[Harlequin]

Why no Yawgmoth's will?  It seems like a fantastic way to reset your board (after you've stax-braids all those moxens away). 

It may be risky the way I invission it though... The idea being, when you have yawg in hand you sac down all your cheap stuff then in the last upkeep before you yawg, you sac out Nether Void... then cast Yawg.  That is obviously very risky.  However I don't think that nessisarily means that Yawg has no place in the deck.

I would say try and add Dark Rituals too.  It seems like all these suggestions are terribly with Nether Void out.  But thats a backwards way to think about it.  With Nether Void on the board, your winning.  Dark Rits and Yawg will be good when can't get a Nether Void to stick.

[zeus-online]

Before you take harlequin's advice and add in rituals....try the mana vault and crypt again, they should really help you cast nether void, which seems like it would be a beating...and you need alot of permanents if you're playing with 7 "smokestacks".

/Zeus

[xycsoscyx]

I'm already going to run one Tomb in my 5c Stax deck, but I never even thought of running Nether Void.  I wanted to run it before, but couldn't because of the mana cost, I have to try it now.    I like this deck, though, it seems very agressive at getting out the lock quick.  I'm curious about the 3x Bazaar, without any way to really take advantage of the discard (other than Crucible).  I'd either consider dropping down to 2x at the most, or trying to add Uba just to make a little more use of Bazaar.

[disrupting specter]

I may be calling this wrong, but I haven't seen anything that says Tomb of Yawgmoth works like that. It is essentially a land that acts as Blanket of Night. It simply makes it so that if a spell says Swamp on it, it fills that condition. I would think the wording would be different if Tomb of Yawgmoth actually made lands produce B. I think the wording would be similar to Contamination, Celestial Dawn or Riftstone Portal. Am I right? Can anyone point me to a source that says so?

[pyr0ma5ta]

I may be calling this wrong, but I haven't seen anything that says Tomb of Yawgmoth works like that. It is essentially a land that acts as Blanket of Night. It simply makes it so that if a spell says Swamp on it, it fills that condition. I would think the wording would be different if Tomb of Yawgmoth actually made lands produce B. I think the wording would be similar to Contamination, Celestial Dawn or Riftstone Portal. Am I right? Can anyone point me to a source that says so?

Swamps by definition produce B.  Take a look at the Oracle of any of the old duals for evidence.

[disrupting specter]

Neither SCG nor gatherer have Oracle text for old duals. The old duals' face text says both "Tap to add B to your mana pool" and "counts as a swamp". Celestial Dawn also says "All lands count as Plains" and "All mana produced is W instead". The new duals also say that the land type is swamp (or whatever) and "T: add B or X to your mana pool". This still doesn't say that because lands count as swamps, that they automatically produce B.

[WhiteWolf]

I would say try and add Dark Rituals too.

In this deck Dark Ritual is probably only good on the first turn. After that you will screw your own Rituals with Sphere, Chalice @ 1, Void, ... In combo it's allright to trade a card for 3 mana but Stax really loves permanents and this version probably even more, seeing it has 7 Smokestacks.

Before you take harlequin's advice and add in rituals....try the mana vault and crypt again, they should really help you cast nether void, which seems like it would be a beating...and you need alot of permanents if you're playing with 7 "smokestacks".

The Crypt and Vault would indeed be great to support Nether Void but I have two things against it: 1) Null Rod makes them useless (ok, other artifact mana too but those are really uncuttable); 2) I already take damage from Confidant. Crypt + Bob could add up quick. On the other hand they could be good in the early game (before Rod comes down) and then you could sac them to one of the 7 Smokeys.

I'm already going to run one Tomb in my 5c Stax deck, but I never even thought of running Nether Void.  I wanted to run it before, but couldn't because of the mana cost, I have to try it now.

Yes, I encourage you to try out Nether Void. Objectively speaking it is probably (one of) the best lock pieces. Urborg just has made casting it in Stax a whole bit easier. It would probably be interesting to take a second look at all the non-artifact lock pieces that were dismissed in the past because of their cc's non-synergy with Workshop. This includes the popular ones like In the Eye of Chaos and Choke but also the more obscure ones like Stoneshaker Shaman.

I'm curious about the 3x Bazaar, without any way to really take advantage of the discard (other than Crucible).  I'd either consider dropping down to 2x at the most, or trying to add Uba just to make a little more use of Bazaar.

I use Bazaars in my B/R Stax deck with Welders, Cow's (and Confidants). This deck drops Welder in favor of Braids but in playing with the B/R Stax I've noticed that Bazaar is still very nice with CoW and the extra cards from Confidant. These could be replaced by an extra Confidant and two other cards (maybe other draw like Cloister) but the fact that Bazaar will often produce B makes it extra interesting I think.

This may seem weird but could something like a Lake of the Dead make sense? With Urborg and (CoW) down it would make a great mana-source (especially for paying the tax from Void).

Another strong card to work in seems Mishra's Factory. It blocks Fishies greatly and is a free kill-condition under Void.

With Nether Void in the maindeck I would focus the sideboard on solutions in a land-form (like the Mazes and Tabernacles I already suggested in my list).

Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions up till now.

WhiteWolf

[zulander]

Oracle readings of Urborg, and comprehensive rules regarding land types.
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Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Legendary Land

Each land is a Swamp in aadition to its other land types.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

212.6d The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words "basic land type," it's referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has an intrinsic ability to produce colored mana. (See rule 406, "Mana Abilities.") The land is treated as if its text box included, ": Add [mana symbol] to your mana pool," even if the text box doesn't actually contain text or the card has no text box. Plains produce white mana; Islands, blue; Swamps, black; Mountains, red; and Forests, green.
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212.6e BLAHBLAH.......If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.

[InfinityCircuit]

I don't see why 7 Smokestacks is necessary.  I think that at most 5 would be sufficient for your purposes, because in many cases it is simply a dead draw.

As far as the board goes,  I think that Duplicants are just better than Maze of Ith in almost all situations because they are a threat in and of themselves.

[WhiteWolf]

I don't see why 7 Smokestacks is necessary.  I think that at most 5 would be sufficient for your purposes, because in many cases it is simply a dead draw.

You're probably right. On top of your comments Braids is also Legendary. I want to keep at least two copies however. It's a nice win condition that helps keeping you in a winning position. The fact that it has 'soot' immediately is very relevant, plus it can act as a blocker against aggro.

As far as the board goes,  I think that Duplicants are just better than Maze of Ith in almost all situations because they are a threat in and of themselves.

I mostly only play Duplicants in decks with Welder. They can be difficult to hardcast, especially when a Nether Void is down. I already claimed that land-form solutions like Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale seem the best in the sideboard. They're also uncounterable and not vulnerable to things like Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild and Energy Flux. When Empty the Warrens gets popular in my meta some Powder Kegs or Engineered Explosives are probably necessary, although Tabernacle seems a nice defense measure against the Goblins. Other solutions (against EtW and aggro) are Engineered Plague and Plague Spitter.

I thought about the proposed decklist some more and did some goldfish hands. At the moment I would do something like this with the list:

- 4 Sphere of Resistance (has some ugly dissynergy with Void (and Braids), good against combo of course)
+ 4 Mishra's Factory (Nice win-condition under Nether Void and defensive measure. The deck was a bit mana-light too.)

- 1 Braids
+ 1 Dark Confidant

And probably:

- 1 Bazaar (nice tutor target in the mid-game after already getting/drawing Trinisphere and Strip)
+ 1 Crucible of Worlds (core card that I never regret to see)

I would also test:

- 1 Swamp
+ 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

And yes, I know Urborg is Legendary but it's pretty important for this deck (but surely not 100 % needed like my goldfishing showed). Extras could always be sacced to Smokestack and Braids or filtered away with Bazaar. The only immediate pro I see about a basic Swamp is that it adds to your permanent count (playing an extra Urborg would give you one less permanent). Mana wise you don't need the extra Swamp when you have an Urborg down. This asks for some testing.

WhiteWolf

[yespuhyren]

Here is the version I have been working with as of late.

// Lands
    3  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Swamp
    4  Mishra's Factory
    4  Cabal Pit

// Spells
    1  Imperial Seal
    4  Nether Void
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    4  Smokestack
    4  Tangle Wire
    4  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Chains of Mephistopheles

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 4  Defense Grid
SB: 4  Maze of Ith
SB: 3  The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Although Bazaar is incredible, I have decided to cut it in favor of hammering on control by adding the 4x Chains of Mephistopheles.  4x Factory is also a win condition under Nether Void

[madmanmike25]

I don't see why 7 Smokestacks is necessary.

I would play with 8 Smokestacks if I could, possibly more.  Concerning Braids, however, I think that 2 should do it.

Dark Confidant provides an alternative 'win' in addition to card draw.  At least 3 should be included in a black smokestack build.  Since Confidants don't interfere with Chains of Mephistopheles, why not play with both?

And I agree that Stax needs more permanent mana sources over Dark Rituals. 

Yawgmoth's will is an excellent card if you can do excellent things with it.  I don't think you want it sitting in your hand all that time until you go broken and cast........crucible again?

Also, if you decide on running 4 Nether Voids you NEED some kind of filtering (aka bazaar)as only one can see play.

[Lymph]

Although Bazaar is incredible, I have decided to cut it in favor of hammering on control by adding the 4x Chains of Mephistopheles

Is Chains that good against blue decks ? Apart from 4 Brainstorms and Ancestrall Recall most combo and combo-control decks use tutors to get the job done. Bazaar seems to do more for you then Chains does to your opponent.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I was about to type up my list but Yespuhyren's list is extremely similar to mine. Minus a Nether Void or two and some Bobs.

Has anyone thought of an Aggro Shop version of this? Braids, + Bob, and possibly stuff like Trike and big Jugz can be interesting. It even gives you opportunity to cast Night Of Soul's Betrayal to cream the mirror and those ETW tokens.

[Mith]

I'm not convinced yet as to how useful Chains of Meph will be. As far as Nether Void and Urborg go, three a piece should be plenty. I'm also not sold on the need for Tangle Wire. Between Voids and Stacks (or even Braids if you'd like) you have more than enough lock down. I also get the feeling that Extirpate could really shine in this deck.

Maybe something like...

Mana (29)
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Mishra's Factory
    4  Cabal Pit
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
Spells (31)
    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Darkblast
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Extirpate
    3  Nether Void
    3  Null Rod
    4  Smokestack
    4  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Chalice of the Void

Just my 2 cents

[Methuselahn]

Dark Confidant provides an alternative 'win' in addition to card draw.  At least 3 should be included in a black smokestack build.  Since Confidants don't interfere with Chains of Mephistopheles, why not play with both?

Why run Chains, which punishes drawing, when you have a mana lockdown strategy going?  If they can't cast their spells, who cares how many they draw?  It seems like a weak card to have in the deck.

[madmanmike25]

Dark Confidant provides an alternative 'win' in addition to card draw.  At least 3 should be included in a black smokestack build.  Since Confidants don't interfere with Chains of Mephistopheles, why not play with both?

Why run Chains, which punishes drawing, when you have a mana lockdown strategy going?  If they can't cast their spells, who cares how many they draw?  It seems like a weak card to have in the deck.

My comment was directed at Yespuhyren's list which does runs the Chains.  But in all honesty, you are right, I don't think Chains works in this type of deck.

Although Bazaar is incredible, I have decided to cut it in favor of hammering on control by adding the 4x Chains of Mephistopheles

Is Chains that good against blue decks ? Apart from 4 Brainstorms and Ancestrall Recall most combo and combo-control decks use tutors to get the job done. Bazaar seems to do more for you then Chains does to your opponent.

That sums it up about as best as I could say.  The other main draw spell would be Thirst in slaver decks, and even that's being reduced.  Too bad, I wonder if Chains is viable at all since tutors>Chains.

[Smmenen]

I threw together a rough list that I posted in my article that went up monday:

 Here is a draft of a deck that might try to abuse Urborg:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Riftstone Portal
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus

1 Trinisphere
4 Dark Confidant
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Balance
1 Trike
1 Karn
1 Pithing Needle

The idea behind this deck is to try and take advantage of the fact that Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar can produce Black with Urborg in play. That way you aren't hurt as badly by Null Rod, which will break the back of many opponents.

[Harlequin]

If I were running That tomb, I would definatly run Tanglewire + Spreading Algae.

Something similar to Steve's list, but with Crop rotation, Tanglewire, Algae.  To make room ... probably move the Chalice onto the board.  Cut the tombs down and bazaars down to 3 (with the addition of Crop Rotation)... Other than that note sure.. maybe needle? 

Obviously it would take some tweeking

[Implacable]

If I were running That tomb, I would definatly run Tanglewire + Spreading Algae.

Something similar to Steve's list, but with Crop rotation, Tanglewire, Algae.  To make room ... probably move the Chalice onto the board.  Cut the tombs down and bazaars down to 3 (with the addition of Crop Rotation)... Other than that note sure.. maybe needle? 

Obviously it would take some tweeking

If a Stax deck does not run 4x Chalice main, it is incorrectly built.  That a card could be so stupidly powerful and be usable for utility is the stone cold nuts.  Chalice is one of the top 3 lock components of any Stax deck, counting 3Sphere.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Although my artifact/Bob structure is identical to Steve's I am not so sure about the Manabase.

I certainly think you want/need Cabal Pit to deal with stupid creatures.

[unknown.root]

So I'm testing just one in a five color build (albeit 1/2 the spells are black) and it seems promising.

I believe the greatest thing this land allows stax to do is cast late game leylines in game 2 & 3.

That and pay for  energy flux like effects is kinda sweet.

[Oedipus]

Remember to those of you who will play Nether Void or The Abyss, only one Echant World can be in play at once by definition. So you may only want 1 or 2 of each in a deck.

[yespuhyren]

Yes but you still do want to hit them.  I konw i'm gonna be playing with Nether Void and if not 4 copies I'll play at least 3.  I want one every game.

[madmanmike25]

Yes but you still do want to hit them.  I konw i'm gonna be playing with Nether Void and if not 4 copies I'll play at least 3.  I want one every game.

This is true.  ESPECIALLY if you run Bazaar of Baghdad which can filter out any extra copies. 

@Yespuhyren
How are the Chains of Mephistopheles working out for you???  Any test results?

[wethepeople]

@Yespuhyren
How are the Chains of Mephistopheles working out for you???  Any test results?

I just played him with it, and he got Chains online once, maybe even twice in our games. From my side, it was very effective, because I found myself discarding Brainstorms off previous Ancestral Recalls, as well as confusing the fuck out of me when trying to figure it out at first.

Chains reminded me a little of Uba Mask, because it stopped me from ever achieving any real card advantage, which in a Control obviously created problems, and certainly was a good addition (for him) to the lock.

Although this is not enough testing for one to decide on one specific card, I still felt that it would be good to provide some results from the opponent's point of view.

[yespuhyren]

Chains has been sick vs blue control.  I really like this list, and though I miss bazaar, its still hard to decide what I'm going to do.  I do know that I want to do one of two things.

R/B or Mono Black

Nether Void is just so unbelievably powerful.  The only question, is do I want to do

1) Bazaar
2) Chains of Mephistopheles

Both are great, and you have to look at both of them because they do one extremely important thing, controlling the draws.

While Bazaar DOES help the draws of the deck, it does nothing to the opponent.  Chains, while not helping you draw cards, it stops your opponent from drawing cards with cards like Brainstorm, Thirst for Knowledge, Ancestral, Etc, and can be very easily cast with a Black source + mox on T1.  It also isn't shop reliant.

Bazaar is extremely abusable with Crucible and Welder, but if the deck isn't playing welder then running Bazaar, in my opinion, would be suboptimal to running Chains.  If I was running Welder, I would probably stick to Bazaars.