MDG in 2K7

[Imsomniac101]

After a year of dormancy, MDG exploded onto the scene with an SCG win and walking away with the trophy at the World Champs. Now with the Brassman's Waterbury victory, and the collaberation on Ichorid, recognized as one of Gifts weaknesses, where do you see MDG in 2K7? Will Extirpate have a negative impact on the popularity of MDG?

For the sake of discussion, and as a sort of reference, I will throw in a decklist. I'm quite proud at the moment of this. All the numbers are somewhat pleasing to me, and it's played out well in testing.

//NAME: MDG 2K7
        3 Gifts Ungiven
        4 Merchant Scroll
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        2 Misdirection
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Time Walk
        1 Recoup
        1 Tendrils of Agony
        1 Empty the Warrens
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Skeletal Scrying
        1 Chain of Vapor
        1 Hurkyl's Recall
        1 Dark Ritual
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Tolarian Academy
        2 Underground Sea
        2 Volcanic Island
        1 Snow-Covered Island
        3 Island
        2 Flooded Strand
        3 Polluted Delta
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Sapphire

Skeletal Scrying over the 4th Gifts is something I'm testing at the moment with mixed results.
I've finally cut the 3rd MisD for Vamp, although I feel somewhat naked without the 3rd pitch spell.
Also note I am playing both Mana Vault and Dark Ritual. Why choose when I can play both? With DRit in, I replaced Bwish with Tendrils. I am still wary of this change, and will continue to be so till further testing shows me something.
Empty the Warrens main is turning out quite nicely. I often side it out in Drain mirrors, but it has proven itself in the Stax matchup. I have yet to play this against a Fish list. The best thing I've found about Empty the Warrens is that it saves me one slot over Tinker Colossus. I still run Tinker Titan in the board.

Discuss!

[LSD/Cruise]

Empty the Warrens is very good in the SB IMO. Where the heck is Tinker and DSC? I know you may say it's weaker right now, but it takes less diffculty to cast then Empty the Warrens. It also makes your Gifts piles much more deadlier if you think about. Also, Tinker is also pretty good against Stax, but Welders are going to pose a problem.

Skeletal Scrying is kinda slow IMO, with all the Ichorid and Pitch Long running around. Other people like it, so I guess theres not much wrong.

Add the 4th Gifts in if your not going to run the DSC kill. If your going to rely on using EtW and Tendrils as kill conditions, run the 4th Gifts. The 4th Gifts is what helps you combo, and gets you those missing pieces. Scrying is probably going to draw you into more control than combo pieces. Gifts is a flexible card, it can be Control/Card Advantage/Mana/Combo. Meandeck Gifts isnt Meandeck Gifts without the 4 Gifts Ungiven and 4 Merchant Scroll, IMO.

[Imsomniac101]

The two cards you've picked up on are things I'm currently experimenting. I normally play MDG conservatively like tutor for FoW more often than AR etc, so these changes might not be permanent ( ie Tendrils main etc).

[LSD/Cruise]

I kinda like Tendrils main. As much as I love Tinker/Colossus, I personally think if your going to kill someone, Tendrils would be the best for that. Burning Wish is much harder to pull off for the Tendrils win, and the Tendrils win is very efficient and fast in a deck like this.

I can understand your still testing the deck. Right now, I'm using Dark Confidants... right after Davide Cohen Top 8ed 2006 Vintage Champs, I felt that Dark Confidant might shine in Meandeck Gifts. So far in my testing, I did cut DSC as I can consistently kill on the 4th turn, and decided the Tendrils kill can be very easy to pull off with Confidants performing multi functional roles, and EtW is actually perfect for this variant. I urge you to test out Confidants... it can bea bad idea at times, as it is pure suicide if you play two copies.

[Imsomniac101]

Don't get me wrong. I've been playing the deck for quite a while now (a month or two before it became popular), so I'm no newcomer. I think Dark Confidants are not optimal for Gifts decks. They are too slow, and the problem is that you want an immediate effect. I like the fact that MDG can play control, then in one turn just go for the kill. Confidants hamper this ability.

The reason for Scrying over 4th Gifts is that sometimes I need a good mix of Business and mana. The fact that it's black is both blessing and curse. Sometimes, on turn 1-2, Scrying won't be active, and that annoys me sometimes. Sometimes I require a card to pitch and that annoys me as well. But it is good.

Empty the Warrens has produced mixed results for me. In Drain/ Combo matches, I will side it out in favour of Tinker Titan. It's very good against Stax though. The main reason I like it so much is because it saves me 1 slot. It does require more set up than Tinker though which is a definite downside.

[EDIT] anyway. That is slightly sidetracking a bit. The purpose of this thread was to see what people who play MDG will have to anticipate in the future. I've already outlined two in my opening post, Ichorid and Extirpate. Solutions anyone?

[DoubleDrain]

If Extirpate and other split second cards (such as trickbind, wipe away, etc.) become a problem for MDG, then the gifts players may need to pack multiple duress in the board, and maybe even in the main (replacing Misdirection?).

[Imsomniac101]

I am not concerned at all by the other Split Second cards. I think they are over-hyped and over costed. Besides, I already run Duress in the board. The problem with Extirpate is that it hits in resp to duress, and since MDG plays quite a redundant MD it will be a problem.

[Ufactor]

First, I must point out that to have a discussion of Meandeck Gifts, it would be helpful to start with the most recent, relevant version of the deck.  The closest non-premium list would be found here.

Secondly, looking at Brassman's list there are alot of innovative changes.  His decklist however is strategically different than how Meandeck utilizes the same combo.  Not that BMG isn't a complete work of art in and of itself, but mixing too many elements forces you to play the deck in a completely different way.  There are two cards that seem to be applicable to our purposes: Empty the Warrens and Timetwister.

With this in mind I am playing a version of Smmenen's deck with the following alterations:

+1 Empty the Warrens/Burning Wish
+1 Misdirection
+1 Volcanic Island
-1 Darksteel Colossus
-1 Library of Alexandria
-1 Tinker

...with this sideboard
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Timetwister
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Fire/Ice
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

[Thegreatgonzo]

About Empty the warrens : I love this card, and I often run one in my gift sideboard. The fear of Wipe away made it popular. But I still run Tinker/DSC in the main. Let me explain why.

Have you ever noticed there was no Competitive Tinker.deck? It could be easy to tutor into tinker constantly on turn 2 or 3. In fact, lots of decks do it when needed.
I think the main reason is that good players had the intuitive feeling that Tinker/DSC was not worth the focus. It's a good plan B, it's a bad plan A.

The reasons why it's a bad plan A have been discussed many times. To keep it short, there are cleaner, safer, quicker ways to do the job, especially in a U/B shell.

So, why is it such a good plan B ?
Well, it has "small synergy" with the deck (with many decks, now that I think about it).
This means it "fits in" : you have enough tutors/artifacts to support the combo, you have counter magic (and maybe duresses) to protect the dude, and Time walk is here to make it a full turn faster.
But it does not rely on this synergy the way plan A does.
So in this particular example (Meandeck gift), tinker/colossus is not as exlosive/safe/clean/whatever as Yawgmoth's will/lethal Tendrils, but it works, no matter what storm hate your opponent runs.

Empty the warrens is great, but does not fill the role of "plan B" because it relies on the very same engine than tendrils of agony. It's more like a " plan A' ", if you see what I mean.
Also, as already stated, Tinker makes great gift piles. Empty the warrens does not.

About empty the warrens being only one slot : That's a very solid reason to drop darksteel guy, a agree. But in the same time, I remember all the games I won by tinkering lotus (or crypt, post board) to avoid Chalice of the void set at 0.

Since I don't run Vampiric tutor main (I sometimes have it in the sideboard, for those games where hand size doesn't matter much), I imagine the deal is something like V.tutor + Empty the warrens VS Tinker + Darksteel colossus. The choice is much about expected hate/meta and playstyle. I'm quite happy with the big guy for the moment.

[LSD/Cruise]

Thing is.... Ichorid is a match up that takes practice to play right. Also, you have to learn that even though their discard is fast and fierce, your probably gonna go 50/50 against it. Meandeck Gifts is an explosive deck. Leave mana open to counter Dread Returns and Cabal Therapies and you should do somewhat okay. And that's where Vampiric Tutor and Dark Ritual come in. Vampiric Tutor finds you that Tinker, meanwhile Dark Ritual just accelerates your spells in general. I cut FoF from my list because my meta was infested with Pitch Long, and playing agianst Ichorid became tiresome with such a slow card. To deal with Ichorid, I must say Tormod's Crypt is the best thing against them so far as I know. Needle is good too, as it can shut down Welders, Wasteland, and Bazaar as well. I kinda wondered why we stopped playing Needles in the SB... well, some people. I wanna shove mine back in, but against Stax, I figured EtW was too awesome to cut. I could cut Clasms, and add in two Needles. Fire // Ice can deal with Mage via Merchant Scroll. Empty the Warrens can just beat your opponent down.

I use the Tendrils kill way more than the Colossus kill. One thing I've learned is that I was never scared of Wipe Away. Trickbind however, may be problems. Luckily, I bring in Duresses from the SB, as nobody plays Trickbind MDed. 

Tinker/Colossus may not be the greatest kill, but it's a good fallback or a way to force your opponent to Waste his resources dealing with it while you sit back and get eveyrhting you need. If you ever go for this kill, it was either to...

1. Pressure Combo into going off early.
2. Dealing with Stax means an early DSC.
3. You can protect this badboy against Fish.
4. Somehow, your Tendrils isnt treating you nice.

[zeus-online]

Don't get me wrong. I've been playing the deck for quite a while now (a month or two before it became popular), so I'm no newcomer. I think Dark Confidants are not optimal for Gifts decks. They are too slow, and the problem is that you want an immediate effect. I like the fact that MDG can play control, then in one turn just go for the kill. Confidants hamper this ability.

I tried night's whisper, and it was actually quite decent, although it requires you to run a heavy black component...which also allowed me to replace misdirection with duress. I stopped using it 'cause i didn't like fetching out sea's, and when i tested a basic swamp it randomly screwed me over all the time..LoA was still fine though.

I only ran tinker/DSC because of the random wins it gave me, against random decks its much easier to just tutor up tinker and get Big Ugly Guy in there to smash them.
Haven't tested warrens yet, but i think its probably better simply because you won't be drawing Dead Draw Collosus, and empty is even harder to answer....Still, its kinda sad to loose tinker as its simply amazing, so i'd suggest running it in the board with either DSC or titan depending on the meta-game and personal preference.

Oh yeah and i totally agree on the split second thing, overcosted and overhyped, although i haven't tested against Extirpate yet....If they become more popular, could running 2x duress or 1x mind twist solve the problem? Mind twist is still kinda bomby during the first two turns, and with 6-7 pitch counters it should be possible to resolve it...Although it might suck if the field is misdirection-heavy.

Just some random thoughts.

/Zeus

[Smmenen]

I don't want to pull this thread off track, but did you guys see this decklist: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31777.0

That's one possible direction to take the deck. 

[LSD/Cruise]

I'm not going to worry about Extirpate. Even though I use the Tendrils kill way more, I'll just try and play around it. This is Vintage people.... it's usually 1-ofs they want to take from me when I'm going to combo off with YawgWin. I'll just Gifts for Tutors and set-up my Will the hard way, if that isnt good enough, I'll just Tutor for Time Walk/Scroll, MTutor, VTutor, DTutor. Use those tutors to find Tinker, or set-up a Tendrils kill.

I like the Combo route really. I can see this doing better against decks like Fish and the like. I also want to see a Mind's Desire in there. It can be very devastating against Control, but then again, with such a good Graveyard set-up via gifts, you can easily dedicate your disruption to protect your Yawgmoth's Will.

I still kinda think MDG is better IMO, but I cant seem to think of a reason why MDG would be better than Ritual Gifts. Ritual gifts is probably everything MDG needs to survive in this meta. It's fast, it can disrupt, and it can race Ichorid and other Combo decks. I havent tested it yet, but I assume it can do alll that I mentioned when I looked at it. Goldfish is probably 2.5 turns.

Posts merged.
-Godder

[Smmenen]

In a practical sense, Ichorid not really a significant part of the metagame yet that MDG has to deal with.

I think that most of hte problems in the metagame are addressed with ETW.

 A big questino to be resolved is:

1) Since MDG definitely should run ETW, how many and where (obviously one maindeck, but where else - how many in the board, etc)

2) Should MDG still run Tinker + Colossus? 

[Odd mutation]

Hi,

I've been playing MDG for a year now with the list almost unmodified safe for some metagame decisions. recently I have removed the Tinker Colossus kill for Empty the Warrens (EtW). I can tell you, this is a completely different deck and, in my opinion, a lot more explosive. You can now make plays you wouldn't/couldn't do before, all because EtW costs 3R instead of 2BB: a significant difference (the Tendrils is of course still in the main deck)! Recoup EtW is a great play! Some games you just go for EtW for 6 tokens first turn with Force of Will backup. If your opponent finds a way out you just Recoup EtW later for even more tokens! EtW made this deck even better in my opinion.

I also added 1 Echoing Truth for 1 Hurkyll's recall (moved to the sideboard, Rebuild always maindeck because of a lot of Stax in the meta) to combat opposing EtWs.

If anybody is interested I will gladly post my list...

Robrecht.

[desolutionist]

I don't want to pull this thread off track, but did you guys see this decklist: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31777.0

That's one possible direction to take the deck. 

What advantages would that have over playing Long? 

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I don't want to pull this thread off track, but did you guys see this decklist: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31777.0

That's one possible direction to take the deck. 

What advantages would that have over playing Long? 

More protection (4 duress, 4 fow, 2 misd).  Look at it as a variation of TPS.  It's sort of similar to IT, as well, except with Gift instead of Intution.  Scrolls give the deck extra cheap tutoring power and Gifts being instant lets you actually play bombs at their EOT, something which combo can't normally do outside of Ancestral Recall.  Although Gifts costs more mana than Grim Tutor, it can actually give you Will and mana to fuel it at the same time.  Obviously the deck isn't as fast as Long and can't play control as well as Gifts, but it definitely has its advantages.  I'd suggest testing it; I did and was fairly impressed.

[LSD/Cruise]

1 Gifts activation from Ritual Gifts can already spell gg. When I played MDG, I always Gifted for Ritual, Lotus, Recoup, and YawgWill. That was a turn 2-3 win for me consistently. No matter what they gave me, I always ended the game in a timely fashion.

So in Ritual Gifts, Gifts is better than Grim Tutor. This deck runs a fulll compliment of disruption, and it runs lik 3-4 Gifts. This deck runs so much disruption and draw, the whole point of it is to protect your disruption. So all you need is one Gifts activation, and the rest can be dedicated to disruption. I love this deck right now. It might be better than MGD, but it can lose all it's stability to Prison... wait, we run Scrolls, nvm.

[o uncola o]

I have always loved Hurkyl's Recall, but when it comes down to it, rebuild is far superior in today's meta.  Why are you running the Hurkyl's Recall main deck rather than a rebuild main?

Should also have mentioned that Skeletal Scrying is not pitchable to Misdirection or FOW and in Gifts usually is too slow to effectively create the mass card advantage it can in other decks (not because of the mana cost but because it often takes a while to fill the 'yard with cards worth removing from the game especially without a main deck burning wish).

[DoubleDrain]

The thing about Hurkyl's vs. rebuild comes down to a couple of things:

First, there is the obvious difference in mana cost. While being a whole mana faster, hurkyl's cannot bounce all of your opponents stax hate AND provide you with storm/mana, but against faster decks like  grim/pitch long, the 1 mana difference can be huge in setting up a faster storm kill.

On the other hand, in a heavy tinker-DSC meta, if you are running the colossus in your deck, rebuild is much weaker, as you cannot rebuild your opponent to win the DSC war, given that you both have one in play...

All in all, I believe that it comes down to the expected meta, and one's own personal preference.

[LSD/Cruise]

I just got back from testing Ritual Gifts. It did very well, but I crashed into some problems...

1. After some playtesting and such, me and my playtest partner concluded MGD is actually very explosive. Turn 1-3 turn wins are very easy to pull off with Ritual maindecked.

2. From our conclusion from number 1, we have also decided what make MGD so good is the fact it's so unpredictable. It's hard to tell if the deck wants to play Control or Combo unless you play a Duress. Dropping lands and go for the next 3 turns can be quite unpredictable if the opponents are trying to examine the MDG player. They'll just either keep playing Control until a mana drain resolves or they just go nuts. I opt for MDG for it's unpredictability of what role they're playing.


Also, Hurkyl's Recall v.s. Rebuild is based on playstyle and/or metagame. I tend to play MGD very aggressively, but I tend to like Rebuild more because my meta is very heavy on Stax. If my metagame becomes more Ichorid, or Long orinented, I think I would change.

[o uncola o]

The thing about Hurkyl's vs. rebuild comes down to a couple of things:

First, there is the obvious difference in mana cost. While being a whole mana faster, hurkyl's cannot bounce all of your opponents stax hate AND provide you with storm/mana, but against faster decks like  grim/pitch long, the 1 mana difference can be huge in setting up a faster storm kill.

On the other hand, in a heavy tinker-DSC meta, if you are running the colossus in your deck, rebuild is much weaker, as you cannot rebuild your opponent to win the DSC war, given that you both have one in play...

All in all, I believe that it comes down to the expected meta, and one's own personal preference.

I think that you have a very good point with the Tinker-DSC mirror.  So far as the long-combo series of decks, ever tested retract as an option for quick storm count / mana building?  I personally have not tested retract in any competitive environment, but it seems like it could be a possible solution (though not nearly as versatile as Hurkyl's or Rebuild.

[LSD/Cruise]

If it's a very predictable metagame. Stax and Fish will appear if Combo and Drain is everywhere in your metagame. Probably better off running Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild. Besides, if you want to combo out, you always have Chain of Vapor.

[MafiaKingpin]

With the question of Empty the Warrens showing up has anyone tested going back to having Burning Wish in the deck to replace the spot where the Tendrils has seem to become maindeck (like the original version of Meandeck and the world champs deck this year)?  And then having both Tendrils and ETW in the SB and Tinker/ Colossus mainboard.

[LSD/Cruise]

IMO, Tendrils is a must MDed. It speeds your goldfish up, and it wins games a handful of games a turn earlier when the deck had Burning Wish. However, I would consider Burning Wish again if DSC has become more centered as a win condition.

That sounds like a decent idea. Right now, I really like the room in my SB, considering I cut Burning Wish from the deck in place of a copy of Maindecked Tendrils of Agony. But if I ever use Burning Wish in this deck again, I'd cut an Island Maindecked for a Tundra, and have Balance in the SB, as it is insane against Fish. 

 

[Smmenen]

Burning Wish was used initially because when MDG was developed, Tendrils was not seen as a primary win condition.   The Gifts lists around at the time typically won using Belcher or even Slaver with two Welders.   

You have to remember, Meandeck Gifts was initially developed in early 2005.  (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=23618.0 ) 

I knew that I wanted a backup win condition in case I could not get DSC online, but the view was that Tendrils was too inflexible to  justify the slot and that it would be infrequent that you would come to rely on it anyway.

Over time, Tendrils came to have a more central role in Gifts victories and the Burning Wish just got in the way of executing that.   

In my view, Meandeck Gifts is not or has never been a single 60 card deck.  Indeed, my very first gifts list reflected some uncertainty in one slot in which I couldn't settle on Vamp or a second bounce spell.

Instead, MDG is Gifts list that was built upon three principal insights:

1) The power of Merchant Scroll (and the synergistic power of Scroll, Misdirection, and Gifts as a funnel of strategy)

2) A disdain for Thirst for Knowledge

 MDG is built with the insight that Thirst was a poor draw engine in Gifts and eschewed the draw engine of Thirst for Knowledge and the jankier win conditions used at the time: Belcher, or even Time Vault.
   
3) That Gifts Ungiven was more powerful than given credit for at the time.   The early Gifts lists ran 2.  I was the first to run  4.   

For a while the primary competition was between MDG and decks that ran thirst.   There was no middle ground. 

Thus, this debate: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27985.0

And these tournament results: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11200.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11209.html


The Bounce suite that MDG lists ran did and should have changed.  Initially, I played Echoing Truth and Rebuild.  In time, this changed to Chain of Vapor and REbuild.  This made alot of sense as Chain of Vapor was revealed to be one of the formats most powerful cards.

Repeal + Empty the Warrens has been revealed to be a powerful combo that produces resilience.   It is not yet clear to me what step MDG should now take.    The presence of ETW calls into question the validity of the Tinker + Colossus win condition entirely.   ETW is never truly dead, while Colossus is often a dead draw.   

If we take as a given that MDG starts with:

25 mana sources (at least)

4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Gifts

4 FoW
4 Drain
X Misdirection (I prefer at least 2)

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Recoup
1 Chain of Vapor
And at least one other bounce spell, but possibly more
1 Tendrils of Agony
And at least one more win condition (DSC Or ETW)

You have the "shell" of Meandeck Gifts.

That leaves you with two open slots (four if you eschew MIsdirection).

What is not at all clear to me is What should fill those 2-4 slots? -->

1) You could go down the road of fragmentation - as the first poster has done.  IMO, this isn't a road that has a clear path.  It is a "pick-and-choose" grab-bag of MDG variants that are mostly as valid as the next list.   But it isn't really worth talking about because there is no "clear" best deck if that's the way to build it.

2) You could take the route of Brassman Gifts or Michael Heatherington and play 2 Repeal and then ETW.

3) You could break away from the Drains entirely and play Ritual Gifts like Limoges has built.

4) The future might be in something else entirely.

IMO, the route to travel is this:

Cut Tinker and Colossus from the deck entirely.  In its place, put a third bounce spell and ETW.   Test the hell out of it.   See how effective ETW becomes.   Let the deck meld itself around ETW.   If ETW is a strong replacement for Tinker and Colossus, you just build the deck to best serve that win condition (and Tendrils).   

If ETW is weak, you go back to the pre-ETW list and see which direction to take the deck, if any.   

Based upon what I just said, here would be my test list:

Meandeck Gifts 2K7, Test Build, By Stephen Menendian

25 Mana (10 Artifact Accelerants) (15 lands - do NOT run LoA)
I'd run 3 Strand (to fight extirpate, should it arise), 2 Delta, 3 Sea, 4 island, 1 Academy, and 2 Volc. 

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection

4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gifts Ungiven

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Recoup

And in the two remaining slots I would run these two cards:

3rd Bounce Spell (I would start with 1 Repeal)
and 1 Dark Ritual to support ETW primarily.   

Sideboard:
3 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Lava Dart
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 OPEN SLOTS

[LSD/Cruise]

What are your thoughts on the MD EtW and DSC as win conditions?

My opinions have always been the fact that Tinker was such a low cost, you can just trade away 1 card and an Artifact for a big win condition. Since it's cc is a low 2U, you can spend the rest of your mana easily looking for more counters to keep your opponent in check while you go beatdown, whereas, it takes effort to use EtW, and still maintain disruption for the next X amount of turns.

Have you recently decided that Duress is much better right now than REB due to the fact it is also better against Combo then REB is, or was it because of the information it provides you? Why the 3rd Underground Sea?

[Smmenen]

What are your thoughts on the MD EtW and DSC as win conditions?

My opinions have always been the fact that Tinker was such a low cost, you can just trade away 1 card and an Artifact for a big win condition. Since it's cc is a low 2U, you can spend the rest of your mana easily looking for more counters to keep your opponent in check while you go beatdown, whereas, it takes effort to use EtW, and still maintain disruption for the next X amount of turns.

Have you recently decided that Duress is much better right now than REB due to the fact it is also better against Combo then REB is, or was it because of the information it provides you? Why the 3rd Underground Sea?

In the three open sb slots, I would probably run 1 Fire/Ice and a 4th Duress.

The 3 Seas are there to support the possible 4 complement of Duress post board. 

I decided sometime late last year, probably after Time Spiral, that Duress was just getting better and better in the control mirror and in general.

Here are some reasons:

1) Split Second.   Duress can answer them, Reb can't.
2) The control mirrors have become more aggressive.  For some reason, the correct role is actually more frequently aggro than control.   You sometimes need Duress to not die - to stay in the game long enough to play your spells.   
3) Duress is good against these UB combo decks that have lots of disruption but are light on threats
4) Others have made the same switch.   Look at Heatheringtons list.

Re: DSC v. ETW:  What you said makes sense.   On the other hand, ETW isn't counterable.   That's why I posted a test list, not a final list.   

[Imsomniac101]

I've played the list some more. I think right now I will move back to 4th Gifts over Scrying. Most of the differences between the standard MDG list and my list stem from my playing of Drain mirrors, which are my most frequent matchups. Hence the Scrying and LoA, and my reluctance to switch to Vamp over 3rd MisD. Scrying makes it much easier when playing against Crypt. What I often do when my opponent plays crypt is just play control, sit back and wait for Tendrils and bounce then combo in one turn. Scrying speeds this up immensely. The fact that it's non REB'able is also a plus.

Smennen, why do you say that LoA is not playable? My list is really only 1 card different from mainstream MDG.

I've played with only one bounce spell, vamp over it, and it seriously hampers the deck's resiliency. You must play with two imo.

I have been playing with 3 duress in the side for a long, long time. I'm actually considering moving them to the MD.
Right now I think EtW is a bit weak without a complement of Repeals. I am still not sure if it is better than Colossus. I still love the fact that it saves me one slot.

[LSD/Cruise]

I dont usually like my opponent getting a bunch of mana drain mana from Scrying. At least from Gifts, it's always going to be 4, but then again, your probably not going to cast those cards unless your going to win the counter war.

I opt for DSC because I can pressure Combo into going off early and pre-mature if I'm lucky because it requires such little set-up. I was having trouble with EtW because I had to plan who to conjure up my storm count, as well as the timing to play it without investing so much mana on it. Tinker allows me to leave a strong amount of mana open.

@Smmenen: I understand the importance of Duress now, I never really thought of the Split Second cards much of a threat to me, since I use the DSC kill a lot more frequently, and I only expect to see it Game 2 and 3, which is the match up I side Duress in against.