Vintage's Best Creature

[Smmenen]

I think this question might be too subjective to really have a definitive answer, pretty much all these cards only work in certain decks. Without fat things to weld goblin welder is pretty useless, even my beloved Meddling Mage requires you to run white and wouldn't really make much sense without pals to help him chip away at your life total, I wrote an article about confidant in Vintage and I made the contention that he needs a deck that's not going to win right away, yet not take so long or have so many high casting cost spells that he kills you. The "Best Creature" really depends on what deck/archetype you're playing. If we're defining "best" creatures as creatures that have the biggest impact on the game state then something a bit more expensive like a Sundering Titan, Darksteel Colossus or an Akroma would probably be higher up on the list.

Maybe if some more definitive criteria were given?

Yes, but then the criteria chosen will be debated as whether they are meritorious.

These discussiones are inane becuase "best" has no clear meaning.  Yet they are nonetheless interesting.

[M.Solymossy]

looks like Bob Maher is winning this race.

[Hydra]

I voted for Sundering Titan because no creature in the format alters a game as much as he does once he hits play.  He's probably the moat popular of the "big" creatures (CS, Dragon, Stax and even some Gifts builds all play him), and he has just as much an impact leaving play as he did coming into play.  Add into the mix mana bases that are getting increasingly juicer for Titan to hit and you've got the creature I consider to be "best" in the current format.

[The Atog Lord]

Atog.

[forests failed you]

It is an interesting spread we have going on.  It would appear that Dark Confidant has more than double the votes of any other creature. 

For this thread I was looking specifically 'creature' cards.  Empty the warrens is a sorcery that makes tokens, hence it was excluded. 

[Smmenen]

I'm sure you are already aware of this, but the number of options could easily produce a winner by splitting votes.

It's possible that if you had only 3-4 options, Dark Confidant would not be ahead. 

[keys]

Where's Jotun Grunt?  Not that I would have voted for it, but still...

I'm also baffled that Isamaru, Gorilla Shaman, and Withered Wretch actually got votes.

[zeus-online]

Surprised that DSC is getting so many votes, since he's getting the axe in many decks...but then again everyone runs answers to him out of fear of the turn 1 big dumb guy.

/Zeus

[M.Solymossy]

Fienstien probobly voted for Isamaru.   

Unnecessary baiting and worthless spam are not appreciated.  Warning for violating Rule 4, Lack of Content and Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting (baiting).  Based on your posting history and current probationary status, additional consequences may follow.  -DA

You've been on Restricted Posting for months, and still earned Verbal Warnings for numerous posts attacking or provoking specific users. This post is pretty mild, but that doesn't stop it from being the last straw. Banned.
-Jacob

[orgcandman]

BESERK MURLODONT!!!

It's a freaking anti-ancestral recall. HOW DO YOU DEAL!

[forests failed you]

I'm sure you are already aware of this, but the number of options could easily produce a winner by splitting votes.

It's possible that if you had only 3-4 options, Dark Confidant would not be ahead. 

I am aware.  Yet, at the same time had I only provided 3-4 options the catagory of 'Other' would likely be the #1 choice.  By having a larger pool of choices it is possible to evaluate the data in a less subjective way. 

If choices were

Goblin Welder
Bob
Mage
DSC

It would be more like people were voting for a specific deck (Prision, Combo, Fish, Drain combo). I wanted to actually look at creatures as individual cards to see which ones people felt were on top of the metagame.  I am very surprised to see that Bob has put up such dominant numbers, because he really isn't part of a dominant Vintage Stratagy.  Obviously, he is a very good card... But not nearly as format defining as others; and yes I agree that he is rather slow.  I get a sense that information cascades may be skewing the poll slightly, but that is and always has been a part of analyzing Magic the Gathering.

[brianpk80]

It would be more like people were voting for a specific deck (Prision, Combo, Fish, Drain combo). I wanted to actually look at creatures as individual cards to see which ones people felt were on top of the metagame.  I am very surprised to see that Bob has put up such dominant numbers, because he really isn't part of a dominant Vintage Stratagy.  Obviously, he is a very good card... But not nearly as format defining as others; and yes I agree that he is rather slow. 

I'll go out on a limb and vouch for Bob.  Unless you're playing Storm combo or playing against Storm combo, keeping Bob on the table is so frequently the deciding factor in any given game it's incredible.  Having played Fish for over a year, I can't imagine any deck in the archetype not beginning with 4 Dark Confidants and I'd splash black into any Fish deck at this point to run a four-set.  With limited exceptions, Vintage Magic games go on for much longer than they are given credit and this guy breaks one of the most fundamental constraints on the game: the one turn, one draw rule.  For every "Ritual, Ritual, Tutor" or "EoT (third turn) Gifts" there are many more Fish mirrors, Slaver matches, Ichorid games gone wrong, protracted Stax games, "Oops I can't find the Oath of Druids" games, and so forth.  For a typically neglible loss of life, your baseline is to outdraw your opponent 2-1 every single turn and that's notwithstanding your own Ancestral, Ninja, Brainstorm (not my cup of tea for Fish but popular nonetheless), additional Confidants, etc. 

When playing against an opponent, I like to constrict and can only do that knowing he/she will abide both by the pressure I apply and the fundamental rules of the game.  Seeing a Dark Confidant on the other end of the table makes this nearly impossible.  Forget mana denial because they will draw into it faster than you can snuff it out.  Forget overrunning them with creatures because they'll outdraw you and outnumber you inevitably.  Forget winning the counter war and expect to get Duressed all the time.  Have no security in your own mana base cause they're so likely to really have Stifle and their own Strip effects, it's disgusting.  Anytime my opponent plays Dark Confidant or "Womb of the Bob" (AEther Vial), it's an emergency must-counter and if I can't counter/remove it or lay my own Confidant, I expect to lose the game.  It's a horrible uphill battle like that sick feeling you get in the control mirror when opponent has first turn Library of Alexandria. 

Except that this time, your opponent's Library shocks you for 2 every turn and keeps running even if you stage a coup to rip their hand down below 6 cards.  And it's much easier I think to Waste/Strip a Library than to find and resolve one of the few removal or bounce spells you may be running (big deal with bounce, he'll come right back) on Bob.  There's a misconception that you must wait a full turn for Bob to replace himself and that's not actually true.  Once Bob reveals his first card, not only is card parity achieved but his controller has a "free" 2/1 creature on the board that harbors the promise of many more quasi-draws in the future.  In essence, after the first draw, he's done more than simply replace himself especially because that engine is a major threat for almost every non-combo deck in the format.  And even against combo, if you score Bob on Turn 1 and manage to survive, he keeps your hand full of counters, Chalices, Crypts, Orim's Chants, Duress, Trickbinds, Wastelands, and everything you want to throw them off. 

Revealing the cards is not a tangible drawback either.  In fact, I think in some cases it's a benefit because it may cause your opponent to overestimate your repository of options and play more prudently than necessary.  If my opponent feels insecure about resolving their Gifts or combo kill, because they see Bob flipping over Echoing Truths, Stifle, etc. or better yet, True Believers with Vial @ 2 in play, and they hold back for an indefinite number of turns, I'm happy.

His status in the poll is well earned.  In fact, the poll seems pretty representative of what I would expect.  I'd also put Goblin Welder in second place, and the votes given to Ichorid, Xantid Swarm, and DSC look pretty fair.  The list is good, with one caveat that I think Goblin Lackey might draw more enthusiasm than Goblin Piledriver.  Other than that, nice work.

-BPK

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

I can't talk about the future but I don't think a single creature has had the longest chokehold (albiet maybe through the "dark age" of vintage") besides goblin welder......with maybe (psychatog/dryads or dsteel colossus) being second

[brianpk80]

I can't talk about the future but I don't think a single creature has had the longest chokehold (albiet maybe through the "dark age" of vintage") besides goblin welder......with maybe (psychatog/dryads or dsteel colossus) being second

I guess if we consider the creature's prominence throughout all of Vintage Magic's history some kudos would definitely go to Juzam Djinn, Serendib Efreet, Serra Angel, Erhnam Djinn, Ball Lightning, Mogg Fanatic, and Birds of Paradise.  I think the focus is just on present day though. 

-BPK

[Methuselahn]

I can't talk about the future but I don't think a single creature has had the longest chokehold (albiet maybe through the "dark age" of vintage") besides goblin welder......with maybe (psychatog/dryads or dsteel colossus) being second

I guess if we consider the creature's prominence throughout all of Vintage Magic's history some kudos would definitely go to Juzam Djinn, Serendib Efreet, Serra Angel, Erhnam Djinn, Ball Lightning, Mogg Fanatic, and Birds of Paradise.  I think the focus is just on present day though. 

-BPK

The focus is on the present day because the first sentence of this thread reads as following;

Question: What is the best creature in Vintage right now? 

Although if it was all of history, Juzam enjoyed the most fame of anyone. 

[Elric]

I don't think Darksteel Colossus and Sundering Titan qualify as "best creatures"- it's Tinker that's so good.  This I think gets to the problem with polls of this sort- you can't really separate creatures from the decks and other cards that go with them.  You might as well be voting on the best deck in Vintage that has creatures in it (U/W Fish, Fish with Confidant, Workshop Aggro, Gifts, Slaver, Stax, etc.). 

Also, while we're mentioning Juzam Djinn, I think that Wizards should issue errata to give him Fear.  If you look at the card, it certainly seems like they meant to give him Fear.  At the least, it seems more likely that Juzam was intended to have Fear than that Time Vault was intended to work like it does now

[orgcandman]

Also, while we're mentioning Juzam Djinn, I think that Wizards should issue errata to give him Fear.  If you look at the card, it certainly seems like they meant to give him Fear.  At the least, it seems more likely that Juzam was intended to have Fear than that Time Vault was intended to work like it does now

They had plenty of space to write "Cannot be blocked except by artifact and/or black creatures." I don't understand why you think it should have had fear. care to elaborate?

-Aaron

[netherspirit]

I chose Goblin Welder; he's just plain broken! Allowing you to recur your most insane artifacts, cheat them into play, or screw with your opponent's ones! How can one card that costs only one mana to play AND provide beats be fair in any way?

[Matt]

Also, while we're mentioning Juzam Djinn, I think that Wizards should issue errata to give him Fear.  If you look at the card, it certainly seems like they meant to give him Fear.  At the least, it seems more likely that Juzam was intended to have Fear than that Time Vault was intended to work like it does now

They had plenty of space to write "Cannot be blocked except by artifact and/or black creatures." I don't understand why you think it should have had fear. care to elaborate?

-Aaron

Cause he's fucking scary-looking?

[Implacable]

Confidant is breaks a stalemate; Welder beats stalemates over the head with a brick.  Confidant doesn't win games as quickly and directly as a resolved Welder.  Speaking as as combo and control player, there is no creature I fear seeing on the table more.

[forests failed you]

I don't think Darksteel Colossus and Sundering Titan qualify as "best creatures"- it's Tinker that's so good.  This I think gets to the problem with polls of this sort- you can't really separate creatures from the decks and other cards that go with them. 

Tinker wouldn't be broken if you couldn't get gigantic men with it.  Before Mirrodin block, Tinker was just a way for combo decks to play Memory Jar.  The addition of DSC and Titan to the format is what turned Tinker into such an amazing bomb in Drain decks. 

I think it is perfectly viable to think that DSC is the best creature in Vintage.  He is a 3 mana 11/11, trample, indestructable for U2 and sac an artifact.   I understand that he is only played because of Tinker, however many decks only play Tinker because of DSC.  Hence the two cards are awesome together.  (who would have thought?)

[orgcandman]

Cause he's fucking scary-looking?

touche

[oneofchaos]

Where da Trinket Mage at?

I like my 2/2 bear win conditions.

[wethepeople]

Despite the other creatures that have been jokingly "missed", Jotun Grunt, really was, and it should be on the list due to the fact it had such a great impact on Fish.

[brianpk80]

Confidant is breaks a stalemate; Welder beats stalemates over the head with a brick.  Confidant doesn't win games as quickly and directly as a resolved Welder.  Speaking as as combo and control player, there is no creature I fear seeing on the table more.

That's interesting to hear because I would think a deck like Pitch Long or EtW Gifts would simply ignore a Welder and go straight for the jugular.  What context is it that makes Welder so ferocious for combo or combo/control: Stax, Slaver, an anti-Tinker utility, or other?

-BPK

[forests failed you]

I added Grunt to the list. 

[diopter]

Confidant is breaks a stalemate; Welder beats stalemates over the head with a brick.  Confidant doesn't win games as quickly and directly as a resolved Welder.  Speaking as as combo and control player, there is no creature I fear seeing on the table more.

That's interesting to hear because I would think a deck like Pitch Long or EtW Gifts would simply ignore a Welder and go straight for the jugular.  What context is it that makes Welder so ferocious for combo or combo/control: Stax, Slaver, an anti-Tinker utility, or other?

-BPK

Speaking as a Gifts player, Goblin Welder is enormously scary. He enables the turn 3 Slaves that make Control Slaver a formidable opponent.

[Robert the Swordsman]

I was sooo tempted to vote for Jotun Grunt.

[zeus-online]

Confidant is breaks a stalemate; Welder beats stalemates over the head with a brick.  Confidant doesn't win games as quickly and directly as a resolved Welder.  Speaking as as combo and control player, there is no creature I fear seeing on the table more.

That's interesting to hear because I would think a deck like Pitch Long or EtW Gifts would simply ignore a Welder and go straight for the jugular.  What context is it that makes Welder so ferocious for combo or combo/control: Stax, Slaver, an anti-Tinker utility, or other?

-BPK

Speaking as a Gifts player, Goblin Welder is enormously scary. He enables the turn 3 Slaves that make Control Slaver a formidable opponent.

I usually just counter the Thirsts, or go for a tendrils with 9 copies.

Tendrils of agony + 9 storm copies = the best answer in MTG.

I'm honestly not too scared of welder, although that turn 3 slaver thingy is rather scary!

/Zeus

[forests failed you]

I don't board out my Welders against Combo or Gifts when I am playing Slaver.  Yes, it is true that sometimes Welder just sits around for a little while;  however, he does two things.  First, if you find and resolve an EOT Thirst, he very quickly puts you into a position where you can switch roles and become the agressor.  And secondly, even if you don't draw a Thirst, he is an implied threat, in the sense that your opponent must respect the fact that if you do draw Thirst and resolve it he is a huge problem.  There is little fairness to a turn one Welder, turn two Thirst for knowledge bringing in something gross.  Not to mention Welder is one of the most significant threats in Stax against control or aggro.