WUb Fish: Deck Discussion

[hauntedechos]

@Everrid1234:  While most decks require synergies to aid thier game plans, Fish, being a hate deck, does not.  We are required to win through the attack step, and pack enough hate to gain tempo to win the game.  This does not require synergy.

If you look at a combo like Conf. and Waterfront bouncer, you're dropping a threat onto the board that most decks now need to deal with.  Why?  Because almost every deck, that isn't Storm combo, has some sort of enabling creature.  This means that in addition to being pitchable to FOW (Good Eye Arsenal on the U count), he is another form of disruption, which happens to have a few uses.

1-bounces my own Conf. if it's too painfull
2-bounces major beats from GAT and the like, that can be targeted.
3-forces your opponent to use up, or search for, and then use up, some sort of removal or bounce.
4-turns jank flips into something that is at least usefull.
5-can add some cards into the yard for earlier Grunt.
6-if notheing else, swing for 1.

Now this is all helped along by Conf.  It doesn't mean that you can't pitch dead cards in your hand, when you don't have a Conf. out.  Sure that is card disadvantage, but they are dead cards you are tossin' anyways right?

You mentioned that Synergy can be targeted, and that having synergy in Fish makes it fragile.  I dis-agree.  If a deck relies on these synergies, they can be targeted.  But we aren't leaning on these, both Bouncer and Conf. stand on thier own two feet, they are just better when they come together. 

I agree on Kira, however.  She's too slow to effectivly protect early game critters.  It was really only an idea that hadn't been thought out, more just tossed out there.

In terms of the mass removal question.  I really don't have an answer for you.  I would imagen you would be looking at Meddling Mage on "X" card.  There is a chance that you can see the card you will face if you Duress.  At that point dropping a mage on that card, may be your only real stand against it.

In terms of the Null Rod vs. Chalice thoughts.  I'm going to have to agree with you on it all.  It's been talked about a tonne of times, and I don't see any reason to continue it.

For reference, My list (I think you asked for it)

3Wasteland
1Stripmine
3U.Sea
4Tundra
3Polluted Delta
2Flooded
1Swamp
1island ...1basic of Island and Swamp vs. Moon effects and rival wasteland effects. 18 lands

4Dark Confidant
4Meddling Mage
3Jotun Grunt
3Waterfront Bouncers
2kataki Wars wage  ...16 Creatures

4Force of Will
3Duress
2Thoughseize
2Daze
1Echoing Truth
2STP
1Null Rod ..15 disruption/Control effects.

1Black Lotus
1Mox Jet
1Mox Saphire
1LotusPetal
1Time Walk
1Ancestral Recall
4brainstorm
1Demonic Tutor..11

I guess I might as well explain a few choices here, as I'm sure there will be commentary on it. 

I upped the creature count from my traditional 15 to 16.  Reason being, is the increased use of creatures in the meta.  Increasingly, if we're in a tight spot vs a beater, we have to chump block to buy time, for whatever plan we are sculpting.  15 creatures was really tight for me, and haveing that extra slot for the 3rd Bouncer, seems to work for me.

3Duress 2 Thoughtseize.  I am still testing this configuration.  I know that I definitly want 5 Duress effects (I tend to be more agressive, and proactive to me is better than sitting on weak reactive counters that aren't named Force Of Will).  What I'm testing is the life loss in conjunction to Dark Confidant.  True we need 4 of this bugger in our decks, however, it limits us to the amount of cards we can use that include life loss.

It is for the reason above AND the diversity of casting cost, that I choose Demonic over Vampiric.  Chalice at 1 really bothers me, because I aggressivly use Duress effects.  Demonic also puts the card into my hand, at the cost of being Sorcery speed.

Basic swamp and Basic Island:  As noted above, an attempt to dodge Moon effects, while trying not to weaken my manabase too much.  No Plains was included, because I feel it to be the weakest colour, aside from my Meddling Mages.  Blood Moon is something I worry about more than Magus of the Moon, because I only have the lone Echoing Truth to deal with it.

Lotus Petal vs Mox Pearl:  This decision was aided by a conversation I had with Dave Feinstein.  He had basicly said, he was enjoying having any colour he needed when it dropped.  I wasn't sold on it then, but I am starting to warm up to it.  When it pops, it also puts a card in the yard for Grunt.  Beyond that, when you drop a Null Rod or Kataki, moxen are dead anyways.

The Lone Null Rod:  I view Kataki as Null Rod 2 and 3, and thus feel like I have 3.  I also have a tutor which can be used for that.  A tutor in Fish, is very much used to fetch your hate, not usually your win condition.  I think this is because you will always have creatures out, and I couldn't see myself ever fetching out a grunt.  Beyond that, I have stated before that there isn't very much Stax in my local meta, and Shop decks are not yet in high numbers.  The last point in this consideration was, do I want 2 Null Rods or 2 STP.

My SB is kept to myself:  I had read somewhere before that a SB is a reflection of your meta considerations.  If I post mine, you will undoubtedly have issues with it, because it does not reflect what is in your area.  So for sake of continuing good conversation, it's kept to myself.  I'd be happy to speak via PM concerning this with anyone.

No Avens:  yes I've pretty much decided that, I was going to run Kataki's over Avens.  I have found the casting cost forces me to lean on Daze when dropping it second or third turn, and I'm not into that.  True, you have to tap down on turn one or two if casting by lands alone, but turn three is very late against decks that Aven is relevent against.

My issue with this deck:  The extra critter slot for Bouncer comes at the cost of an additional Main board Null Rod, Echoing Truth, STP/Edict (for diversity and untargetable creatures) etc.  It's something that will really need testing, and will be dependant on how much removal I start seeing around.

okay, so that is the breakdown of my build in a nutshell.  There are more thoughts put into the deck, but for the sake of conversation and not turning this thread into an evaluation of my deck: Ièll leave it as thus.

Cheers
Mike

[Everrid1234]

Just a short inthrow: What's the opinion about Stifle? (facing HulkFlash, Wastelands, ETW/Tendrils-Combo)

Further comments later.

[hauntedechos]

@everrid1234:  Quick reply as well.

I think that Stifle tricks should be getting a closer look.  We use Avens to disrupt tutoring power, it is costly but is justified by covering the whole gambit.  When we look at how fast the games are won these days, a well timed Stifle can give a nice tempo boost.

Stifle a fetch
Stifle a Tendrils or ETW
Stifle a dryad trigger
Stifle an Oath trigger
Stifle a Bazaar activation
Stfile a welder activation
Stifle a mogg fanatic (can this be done, im not sure)
etc.

looks pretty good for stifle tricks.  lots of testing and further evaluation of the impact on a Stifle is needed.

[The Duressed]

Stifle has been through its ups and downs, but the card is ridiculous.

Stifle a fetch
Stifle a Tendrils or ETW
Stifle a dryad trigger
Stifle an Oath trigger
Stifle a Bazaar activation
Stfile a welder activation
Stifle a mogg fanatic (can this be done, im not sure)

Stifling a fetchland is the best land destruction in the format right now.
Stifling Tendrils and ETW can be rough to get through, because those decks play 6 Duress or more, but it's still great if you expect to see storm.
Stifling a dryad trigger is weak. I wouldn't recommend this unless you're in a very unique situation with very powerful information.
Stifling an Oath trigger can be huge (but do people still play oath?)
Stifling a Bazaar activation can be a vital Time Walk against Ichorid. It's not wildly powerful against Stax decks, though.
Stifling a Welder activation can be powerful, given the right circumstances, but it's not something I would expect to have happen a whole lot.
Stifling a Mogg Fanatic activation is indeed legal, and can help protect your infinite 1-toughness creatures. Seems good.

Stifling a Hulk trigger is the only real reason I had game against Flash. If you expect to see the big bad green guy coming in at instant speed, Stifle is highly recommended.
Stifling a Wasteland can be good. Against decks playing Wastes, you probably won't have any other good Stifle target anyway.
Stifling anything that 2-land Belcher plays will probably just win you the game, straight-up.

Regarding Waterfront Bouncer: Those of you who haven't tested him simply need to. That guy is insane. From keeping a lethal Dryad off the table to helping punch through those last points of damage for the kill, he's just all-around good. Discarding a card every turn seems bad, but you don't need to. You need to pick and choose your targets, instead of just wantonly firing him off at anything that has power and toughness. Also, he's pretty nuts in a deck that plays Wastelands. If you don't run the land destruction, he's not so good anymore.

I feel like there's a point that's been made, but deserves restating: There are synergies, sure, but this deck doesn't rely on them to win. Bouncer and Confidant are very good on their own. Bouncer and Wasteland are good on their own. Wasteland and Kataki are good on their own. Meddling Mage and Duress are good on their own. All of those cards are fine by themselves, but together they gel into something far better.

One of the reasons that Aven Mindcensor was cut was probably because he lacked decent synergy with anything. He was also too expensive and his effect is diminishing, but I'm still going to use my first reason because it flows better with my argument. :p

[hauntedechos]

@ Duressed:  I like your look at Stifle targets.  I cannot really add anything to that.

In terms of My list and Avens:  If you are running Stifles, then the added Stifle effects can become more usefull untill you can get an Aven online.  However I have opted to go with a stronger B aspect.  If I was to lean more on blue and white with minimal splash black, then perhalps Stifles would be in and Duress effects cut back on and thus the Avens come back in.  I do agree with what Duressed is saying here, and thank you for the paraphrasing of my thoughts on synergies.  Aven, for Aven sake is not a solid game plan.  It is good disruption, but seems to need Stifle as a sidekick of sorts.  I say this, because they overlap on Fetchlands.  wastelands and stripmine and Stifle and avens are a pretty solid game plan against fetchlands at least.  Stifles then go on to stop triggers and activations while avens go thier way to stop tutor effects.

Just throwing this out there:  what are peoples thoughts on cutting back to 4 Fetchlands and adding the fourth wasteland into a list running Confidants and Bouncers.  I realise that it weakens the manabase as you want blue white black online as soon as possible.  I wonder if mana denial is strong enough of a game plan to really lean on, or if we are better as keeping it as a disruption tactic and lean on card advantage and bounce.

[Everrid1234]

@ The Duressed: Hi!
The opponent played a deck like: Maindeck Mana Drains, Thirst, FoW, Merchent, Fire-Ice, Ophidian, Morphling, Tinker-Sundering. Nothig extremely dangerous. But after SB'ing he came up with REB, Flametongue Kavu, Pyroclasm, Sudden Shock and i got just hit in the face. There was no way to win this match.
And i really think that there is no way to win a match like this because our only chance, the Confi, doesn't survive here long.

Throwing Confis, Null Rods, Katakis doesn't help much since his removal paired with the FTKs doesn't leave me anything on the table. And my slight chance to resolve Meddling Mage on Mana Drain gets stopped by so many of his cards. So my thought was adding Shadowmage (which gets also hit by REB and FTK) because he gives constant draw and so a slight chance to keep a nice hand size while throwing hate around me.

Any other ideas?


@ Arsenal: No, of course he should be 1st- or 2nd turn drop. I just wanted to sa that you can't count on having a Confi out. Removal is existing.

[Arsenal]

I understand that removal exists in Vintage, but since Confidant is essentially the backbone and core "draw" spell, most situations, you'll protect him with your disruption/countermagic.  He should live.  And if your opponent spends 2-3 removal spells trying to kill Confidant, then you might want to let him, as that's 2-3 less spells for your actual beaters (Grunt).  Like I said, barring a 1 turn barrage of removal spells, you should always have an active Confidant out.

[The Duressed]

Everrid, you'll want to keep him off his colored mana, red especially. A combination of Stifles, Wastelands and Null rods (for lotus/mox) will get that done for you. Beyond that, you just have to use your Duresses to figure out what exactly to counter and name with MM. It's rough, but if you practice, you can do it.

[Everrid1234]

Yes, i think so, too. Manadenial and *finally* getting an equipped Creature on the table is the best way. An equipped Confidant for example.
I am still not sure about the Stifles. I have the feeling that I just won't have it on the hand when I need it or that i am tapped out when i need it (Duressing, Dropping Confi, playing eot Brainstorm --> he fetches). And since i tap out permanently I am really not sure if it's worth it regarding the pressure to keep blue open. Yes, 1st turn Fetchie stifling is cool. I agree. U rely on this situation? I currently test Stifle.
What's your opinion on Stifle (regarding the fetching/wasteland issues).
I think Stifles main tasks is stifling:

-fetchies
-wastes
-etw
-tendrils
-hulk

Other things are more or less unimportant imo (stifling Confidant for example).
Against Creatures we got Swords, against Oath Disenchant etc.

And even more: What's your opinion on the 2 eot tutors?

[The Duressed]

Playing Stifles with the intent to stifle fetchlands is tricky. It requires a considerable deck space commitment (3 at least). The other thing is that it can be awfully conditional. I.e., it's much better on the play than the draw. However, the benefits can be rather incredible. The first and most obvious thing that comes from stifling a fetch is the land destruction. But there's obviously more to it than that, because the tempo of the whole game has suddenly shifted to your favor. It's not just that. For the rest of the match, the opponent will have to wait for the opportune moments that you give him. He will have to continue to wait for "openings." It's like Daze in that they'll play around it for the rest of the match, just because they've seen it the one time.

If you're looking for good equipment for your guys, the only two choices are Umezawa's Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice. They can both be good for pumping your creature's toughness. Just be sure to at least leave 1 counter on your Jitte at all times. Jitte's probably better, but if there's ever been a time to run SoFI, it's now.

Topdeck tutors... it depends on what your strategy is. If you have everything as a 4-of or 3-of, I wouldn't go with them so much. If you're running a plan that plays a few silver bullet answers in the main, and has some 2-ofs going on, I'd use Vampiric, and *maybe* Mystical depending on what you've got going on. Clarifying:

If your deck has portions of it that look like this:
1 Echoing Truth
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trickbind
I'd probably go with VT and MT, if you feel the need to have at least one of these cards every game.

If your deck has portions of it that look like this:
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Null Rod
I'd probably go with VT only.

With that said, I don't feel like the deck is designed to house 6 silver bullets maindeck, like the old Sullivan Solution used to be (with 1 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Rushing River, 1 Echoing Truth, etc.). It just doesn't seem right. The fundamental differences seem too far apart to attempt something along those lines.

I'm going to be honest, though: I wouldn't feel comfortable if either of the above deck excerpts were mine. The deck doesn't win with a pile of silver bullets. It wins with creatures that have relevant abilities, are efficient, and aren't absolutely necessary to win. If you play 1 Waterfront Bouncer and 1 Swords to Plowshares, you just aren't going to win against creatures. Every single deck packs removal. Get used to it. The deck wins because it is redundant, and in that redundancy has a certain inevitability. They can try to kill your creatures, but they still have to rush, because they know you will draw more of them. When your deck is tuned properly, every creature is a threat, a clock, and road block for your opponent's plan. Play a consistent deck, and test it rigorously.

On that note: Stop playing 2 Dazes. Play 3, 4, or 0. 2 is far to random a number to count on getting one in the early game (the only part of the game in which Daze is useful). I honestly prefer Duress effects to Daze... so much so that I'd rather play 7 Duresses than 5 and 2 Dazes. And by the same token, I think the metagame merits something around 3 maindeck Swords to Plowshares right now. When I say to build a consistent deck, that's what I'm referring to.

Just my thoughts, I welcome comments of all kind   

Oh by the way, no matter what your build is, include a Demonic Tutor. Seriously. That card is totally nuts.

[Everrid1234]

Hi Duressed,

i agree with you about the psychological part of opponents fearing Stifle. It's actually quite funny to see them timing their fetches, because i didn't play Stifle for the last 3 months
Stifeling fetches is indeed not as easy as many people think. But i really am not sure if stifleing a fetchie is mighty enough to justify 3 Stifles, occuping worthy space.
Its of course nice,... i am not sure. Combined with Kataki and Null Rod it would be quite strong. It WOULD. But how often do you think that you don't have Duress in the opening hand (which will of course be played 1st) while having Stifle and he starts with Fetchie? I guess around 25%.

Since in the games against aggro you have to be special-fast i think SoFaI is a bit too slow, but not bad. If you play Vampiric and /or Demonic Tutor it could be a split option to be able to tutor for SoFaI OR Jitte (fearing Pithing Needles).

Furthermore i agree about consistency. Cards which are needed in the early game should at least be a 3-of, while (for me) cards for the later game can be a 1-or 2-of. For example, i play Threads of Disloyalty as a 1-of in the SB to Vamp for it or to just accomplish my hate against fast aggro. It is in some way like Jitte (card advantage, but instantly after being played and independant from my own creatures )and allows me to tutor for a 2nd option via Vamp if Jitte is blocked by Pithing Needle and I am facing a Tarmogoyf (for example). I play Echoing Truth as a 1-of since there are 2 Tutors to get it and it's necessary to be played fast to get rid of tokens or having a slight chance left after Oath of Druids is dropped (hoping to draw/tutor into Truth and Duress/Meddling the Oath). I feel that a single Truth main helps nicely.

I am not sure about the Duress effects. I think 7 is too many, admitting that in the current meta it's quite strong. I wouldn't go over 5; you have lots of situations where Daze is quite good. What do you do against a tutored (eot or not) Tinker for example, in the early game? Daze is quite nice here and with 7 counters i don't feel this naked during the opponent's turn.  I think you shouldn't overdo it in one direction since then you are to calculateable for the opponent. Seeing 2 Islands at the opponents side, while having 2 lands on your own and Confidant and Daze on hand is quite nice. Daze makes you faster although you need to take back a land, consider that you can drop threats earlier. Of course indeed it doesn't make you faster just for dropping.

Demonic Tutor: I think he is too fat for this deck. 2 mana tap out should be a fat threat on turn 2, that's my opinion. That's why i like the 2 eot-tutors. You can wait and eot get the hate-bomb, still being able to Brainstorm or something.

[The Duressed]

I like 6 Duresses, personally. I was just saying that I'd rather play 7 than 5 and only 2 Daze, because of how pointless a pair of Dazes seems to me. With the option of extra Duresses, instead of just the 4 that we used to get, Stifle may be out of date. But if your worst matchup is the  kill-your-dudes deck, and you expect to have to play against it, you're going to need a plan, and I feel that land destruction is the best. I also think that the deck should be running 4 Wastelands, but that may be up for some discussion.

And yes, Jitte is probably still better.

I really must disagree with your opinion on Demonic Tutor. While i don't disagree that Vampiric is a good choice, your take on Demonic is a little skewed. It's not supposed to be a bombtastic first-turn play. It's there for the mid- and late-game to get you exactly what you need to finish off the win or get thoroughly in control, and it's perfect for that job. I'd advise you to rethink your strategy for playing it, because if you look at it in this new light, you might like it much better.

Tell me what you think 

[Everrid1234]

Hi again,

6 Duress also seems ok. I think it depends on which decks you face. If you get the feeling after some testing that there is early countering missing, you could add some Daze. I wouldn't be too strict here with the number. If there is early countering missing but 3 Daze is too much for you you could even include 2, because FoW and Daze have the same task in the early game. They complete each other. It is in my eyes a bit like saying "ok, i go down to 2 Null Rods because i have 2 Katakis in the deck and so i have 4 Null-Rod-"effects" or like my view that Shadowmage adds to the creature-draw of the deck, but it's a different card.

I can also totally accept the argument that your deck would have 7 Duresses and the Mana Drain is already taken out so that nothing stops the Dark Confidant 2nd turn. I mean, its very likely that they got some Mox out turn 2 and Dazer is just worthless. Maybe forget my comment about Daze making the deck faster , I reconsidered. Duress is a safe plan, but Daze has also advantages. Some eot Brainstorm, putting back Tinker on top and having to tap out for Tinker next turn would argue for some Dazes. I will also test.
It would be intersting if in a normal game the lifeloss has a big influence. After a normal game, how much cards do you have left in the deck (assuming a turn 3/4 Dark Confidant-->combination from 1st turn and later getting him via Brainstorm/Fetchie or whatever)? Let's say 11 turns (situation should be clear then, so if you got the disruption out you opponent would say "gg"), so you got 24,5 cards ( ), meaning that with 3 Thoughtseizes, playing one, you get around additional 2 damage. Substracting the decreased damage you get from the Thoughtseize- instead of the Daze-draw via Confidant it is maybe around 1,7 additional damage.

I would say after a nice match you have normally 4-8 life left, so this would fit...


Stifle against control is something what is not too reliable. Considering all the nice cards you can throw in vs. control, Stifle seems weak, at least in theory. I would say more then 5 Duress effect make it pointless somehow because you just Duress too often turn 1. Wasteland is reliable. Null Rod is. Thoughtseize is. Again, testing is needed. Stifling a Fetchie for Volcanic is good. Considering Wastelands, i never got lower than 4. They are so good every game. When you face a lot of Stax there is not better answer to a (very probable) 1st turn sphere.

Demonic tutor: If you consider it as a mid-to late game card it is of course super strong. What i completely oversaw is the option to get up a Lotus, allowing you to be even faster and more flexible, with no card disadvantage. If you don't go for Lotus, FoW is also a nice card to take. But playing permanents or finding solutions fast in the early game is critical with Demonic, and the early game with is the critical stage in Fish's game. Of course needs testing. IMO he is a bit too fat. With more acceleration in the deck there wouldn't be any debate wbout Demonic. Maybe in 2 weeks I would say "Demonic is the best card in the deck!"
Since Jotun Grunt is the only card that doesn't have to be dropped asap, 1 replace 1 of the 3 Grunts with a Demonic for testing. Furthermore a Null Rod with a Thoughtseize so there are 3 Kataki and 2 Null Rod remaining.
My creature count is not 13 (omg, how low).

Current decklist :

4 Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki

3 on-color-Moxen
1 Black Lotus

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
2 Null Rod (somehow i hate it as a 2-of)
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Mystical
1 Vampiric
1 Demonic

3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void (I leave this out vs. YawgWill-dependant decks like tendrils because its not worth mulliganing for this card. Jotuns have to do the job. Only against Ichorid and Flash, bacuse chances are too small against these without the Leyline)
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator (vs. slower Controldecks....survives Pyroclasm)
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Swords to Pl
2 Jitte
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant
1 Null Rod

The major things to think about with this list are:

-1 mana source too less
-creature count should be +1
-Null Rod is 2-off (i like him, he saves my day in Y. Will-turns)
-Stifle has no place (but i do still have the impression that a tutor influences the game much more than a Stifle)

[The Duressed]

I did some testing last night, and I've cut all my Stifles. They just weren't getting it done the way they used to, and 6 Duress AND 3 Stifle is just not right.

I like your list for the most part, but the one thing that jumped out to me immediately was 2 Jotun Grunts. This guy is the Tarmogoyf of this deck (not to mention, he makes actual 'goyfs smaller), and I think we should run as many of him as we can (namely, 3 of them). You say you hate 2 Null Rods, and I don't think I like it a whole lot either. You already have 3 Kataki... do you really need 5 Rod/Kataki effects? Normally I'd suggest a 2/2 split, but since your creature base is so thin, and you pack all kinds of tutors, you can probably get away with 3 Kataki and 1 Rod. Maybe bringing in a Grunt for a Rod would solve that problem? It's your build, not mine, so please let us all know what you come up with and how it works out.
You say that you like having out a Null Rod on a Yawgmoth's Will turn. Is there a lot of Long in your area? Most decks that I play against, when using Yawg Will to go off, repeatedly tap and untap their lands, not their moxen.

I'm not saying that Daze is a horrible card... I just keep drawing it in the late game and having it be 100% useless at that time, and it's incredibly frustrating. I keep thinking "If this card were almost as good in the early game, and better in the late game, I'd change my Dazes out immediately." It's frustrating, and I can't shake the feeling that there really is a card that fits those constraints. It's been frustrating, and I haven't come up with anything yet. The only thing I've found that's even been close was Red Elemental Blast, which turned out pretty well for me in URBana, but I'd love to have something just as good for this deck as well. Just let the idea bounce around in your head for a while, maybe something will turn up.

[Everrid1234]

Hi Duresses,

i agree with your thoughts about Duress/Stifle.
The 2-of Jotun is not right, this is true. It's just a test list.

I don't have a real meta, I try to find experts in MWS.
The Rod/Kataki number seems critical. I think 6 would be ok because it is permanent manadenial and that's what slows powered decks down to Fish's speed.
Minimum would be 5 for me. When i speak of a Yawgmoth's Will turn i think more of fast TPS versions with ETW. Of course there are Gush-combos outside, but i think they are much easier to hate. Meddling on Gush and the game is mine (takes often too long for them to solve this). TPS is more difficult to hate while Null Rod does more here. Kataki is weaker against combo but very strong against Stax. 3 Kataki and 3 Null Rod can let you win game 1 vs. Stax (but it's hard).

I test a list with 7 Duress now, cut the Dazes and try to figure out how it works

What do you think about the Manabase? I mean: Lotus, 3 Moxen, 5 Wastes (?) is pretty clear. But how many sources is your personal minimum? Did you EVER fetch for basic land? I would rather add a fetchie than a basic land.

[The Duressed]

Mana base: Yes, play 5 Wastelands. And no, I never fetch for a basic Island. Ever. None of your important spells in match-ups against Wastelands have blue in them. Swords, Grunt, Seal/Disenchant, Jitte. I nixed my basic Island a while ago, and it's only added stability.

A list with lots of discard and only 4 Force of Will is actually fairly different to play. You don't get to go all-in on a Dark Confidant turn 1, usually. You'll probably want to turn 1 Duress, even if you have the mox and Confidant in your hand. That's probably the only significant change, but you can see how the whole game plan changes. It's not really as aggressive... it's more controlling and stable. It might have a lot to do with your play style (I know that I definitely like to play the slower and in-control decks).

Let me know what your testing turns up. 

[hauntedechos]

On the topic of Stifle.  Stifling a Fetch, is great tempo gain, when it works out.  I would imagine that the greater use of Stifle in this meta, is against storm and welder activations in the stax and shop match.  The card requires a tonne of skill to use effectively in a Fish deck.

By the same token, so does Daze.  I dis-like Daze because what I really want, is another 3-4 hard counters.  For me Daze is a necessary evil.  Early game it can buy me a turn if they walk into it.  After that, they play around it and it loses it's effect against a competent player.  It still pitches to Force, and keeps the U count up.  With Bouncers in the list, they become additional fodder for bounce.

In the end, I'm not sure whether I want 3 Daze or 3 Stifle in my list.  I can think of arguments for both.  On the one hand, Stifles effect isn't side stepped by tapping an additional 1. pitches to Force etc etc etc.  On the other, Daze on turn 1 can virtually be a hard counter and when you are tapped, can force your opponent to decide "all in and hope he doesn't have the Daze" or wait. With the huge amount of activated and triggered effects running around, trying to fly under counter war's radar: it gives consideration to Stifle for me.

This hasn't been an explanation of why anyone whould play one or the other, but simply thinking out loud.

2c

cheers
Mike

[elmarfud]

Hi guys,

I've been playing a similar list for quite some time now and I was wondering what your opnion on misdirection is? I've been playing 2 misdirections main because of oath and GAT all reaching out for an ancestrall. on the other hand I've noticed that misdirection and confidant aren't very close friends.

I'll post my list this evening ...

Elmarfud

[Arsenal]

Would a more aggressive approach work w/ UWB Fish in Vintage?  Legacy builds and Vintage build are very similar, except most Legacy builds run Serra Avengers, Umezawa Jittes, and Mother of Runes.  Now, those three cards work wonders in an aggro / aggro-control format like Legacy, and while Vintage does not see nearly the number of creatures, with the advent of R/G Beats and other decks using Goyf' + Tog + Dryad + random creatures (like Fish coincidentally), would this be a consideration?

For reference, this is my Legacy build:

17 creature spells
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
3 Mother of Runes

26 non-creature spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
3 Umezawa Jitte

17 land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Swamp

Now, obviously this would have to be tweaked for the Vintage game, but the three main difference are Jitte, Avenger, and MoR.  Combined, they wreck house.  A Jitted Avenger, protected by MoR is often times game over.  In my mind, MoR serves a similar role as Waterfront Bouncer, except you don't need to pitch anything in order for her to be effective.  She can push your Grunt/Avenger through for that last bit of damage, or can assist in protected chump-blocking.  Between Fetches, FoWs, Confidant, and Thoughtseize, this deck loses tons of life.  Jitte can offset that.  I don't know, but couldn't Kataki and Stifle and other hate specific cards be moved to SB in order to have a faster, more aggresive build?  If not Avenger (4th turn might be too slow for Vintage), then at least Jitte?  Avenger and Grunt can end things quickly, but MoR and Jitte make them near invincible, while also helping you defensively for a couple turns (MoR protection and Jitte lifegain/creature kill).

[hauntedechos]

she is a 1 power creature who falls prey to the same modes of removal that Fish's other 1 power creatures die to.

[Zherbus]

Alot of those cards excel in a format where combat is the norm, thus many of the principles have a tough time carrying over to Vintage.

[Everrid1234]

Yes, in a good Fish T1 deck each creature should have a special effect. Mother of Runes does nothing on herself, she just protects. This means she will only be effective when there is a creature on the table to be protected. In T1 everything should be as independant as ist can be from other permanents because you often just have the time to cast a permanent, try to survive the opponents turn whithout getting disrupted yourself too much and then go on.
Mother, Serra and Jitte don't support this plan. They are very good against aggro and bad vs common T1 decks because these mostly aren't aggro decks.

[Arsenal]

Sorta what I figured about Avenger and Jitte; I just thought with more decks like R/G Beats popping up, and everyone and there mothers using Goyf (which a Jitted Avenger owns handidly), this could be a viable route to go.  But to expound on MoR ~ Waterfront Bouncer (my original point).  You claim that every creature should be as independant as possible and that MoR is only effective if there's another creature out in play.... isn't that true of Waterfront Bouncer too?  In order for his ability to shine, there needs to be another creature out in play (preferably your opponent's Dryad/Goyf/Tog/etc).  I don't understand how Waterfront Bouncer = good, but MoR (which is accomplishing about the same thing as Bouncer) = bad.  Please explain.  The only differences I see is that Bouncer is pitchable to FoW and MoR's ability isn't dependant on your hand.  Both creatures force your attackers through for that last bit of damage, both creatures can help you defensively when opponent declares attack, both creatures can evade/make others evasive, both creatures can swing for 1, both creatures can die to -1/-1 effects.

[Everrid1234]

Waterfront bounces creatures the opponent controls. Mother of Runes needs a creature YOU control. That's a big difference. If you just want to block creatures they don't differ very much (except for artifacts). But if you regard Phyrexian Dreadnought, Juggernaut, Darksteel Colossus, creatures given trample by Berserk or Tidespout Tyrant you see why Waterfront is better. He could bounce your own creatures to if they are going to be destroyed. I don't like Bouncer anyways because he is a bit narrow and a too slow imo. You need 2 cards to get rid of 1 and he dies to Swords etc. When he is dropped its no more a surprise like Swords/Truth.

Did anyone test the Shadowmages? In my testings they show very nice results (against all slower decks with huge draw engines they provide drawing creatures number 5 and 6. Creatures which let me draw cards are the only way to win against draw-heavy decks like most control decks imo. The plan is to force though one of the 6 creatures and just disupt him until he is dead. This decklist works well, i would appreciate if someone tests it or a similar one...
I have tested so many decks, from Ichorid to Stax to Dryad/GushStorm, Slaver...the best overall matchups i had with this fish build....
Sure, you can't be cool and get broken with Land,Lotus, Mox and something like Flash, Oath or Merchant Scroll for Ancestral with Counterbackup. But you have consistant good matchups against each type of deck. Problems are Wasteland- or Stax-heavy environments, what is pretty tough.

4 Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki

3 on-color-Moxen
1 Black Lotus

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
3 Null Rod
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Mystical
1 Vampiric

3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Swords to Pl
2 Jitte
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant
1 Duress

I think the most important points are (each is just my opinion, I like to read arguments against my points):

-why play on-top-tutors --> they make the deck so flexible i would never cut these. I like the tutors in each matchup. They provide an answer to each situation. At least they bring up Ancestral of Confidant for improved draw. They are not fast, that's true. They provide additional shuffeling.
-Is Null Rod worth it --> imo definitely yes
-Is Stifle necessary --> imo no
-more Duress effects --> could be 1 more
-Basic lands --> not necessary, I never fetched for basic
-Threads of Disloyalty --> imo nice, but not as nice as Jitte (lifegain is important vs Aggro, against Dryad Swords does the job)
-Waterfront Bouncer --> imo a bit slow and without Confi card disadvantage. Could be ok in some environments but i like each other card more in an aggroo matchup
-enough inside vs Combo? I think 1 Duress-effect SB and the Leylines should be enough. I don't have an idea (apart from Stifle) what could strengthen here.
-is 21 a sufficient number for the mana sources: i think 1 more could be nice, but it works most of the time and i need each card in the deck and a high density of threats

Any ideas?

[uwfish2000]

i take 4th place. 12 people was participate. this is my list.

mana source(18):
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
3 tundra
1 underground sea
2 island
1 swamp
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

creature(13):
4 meddling mage
4 dark confidant
3 jotun grunt
2 kataki

instant(14):
4 force of will
2 daze
4 brainstorm
1 ancestrall recall
3 echoing truth
1 dark blast

sorcery(6):
2 ponder
1 timewalk
3 duress

artifact(7):
3 null rod
1 black lotus
3 moxen

enchantment(2):
2 leyline of the void

sideboard(15):
2 leyline of the void
2 energy flux
2 umezawa's jitte
3 seal of cleansing
3 blue elemental blast
3 extirpate

round 1 vs mono black suicide : 2-1
round 2 vs aggro stax : 2-1
round 3 vs Dawn of the dead : 0-2
round 4 vs Back to basic : 2-0

i cut 3 stifle for 1 dark blast and 2 leyline of the void.

dark blast -> welder, dark confidant, gorilla shaman, and another */1 creature.
leyline of the void -> Control slaver, and another deck with yawgmoth will.

i like this built. what do you think about my deck?

[Everrid1234]

-a basic swamp. For what? 1 Basic Island is absolutely enough to play draw and bounce. Better more Underground Seas. You need all three colors early
-2 Leyline is just random. 4 or 0 imo.
-3 Echoing Truth? Didnt you sometimes wish it was a Swords? How do you handle Tarmogoyfs?
-Darkblast would be a SB option for me, but not main
-Blue Blasts? Did you ever need them?

[EVG]

@ uwfish2000
Hey there umm I have a few questions as well the first being why maindeck Swamp? What purpose does it serve that is that much more valuble then a Sea? And where are your STP's man? I hate to beat a dead horse but the card is played for a reason Also, 3 E. Truth what is that about? Also some builds run some tutors (Vamp, Demonic, Mystical) you may want to consider them they are pretty good. The Leyline seems better suited for Goblins or something rather then your deck, like just as a quick example it cuts your Grunt time in half at the minimum.

I would really like to see the decks that you beat so I can understand how it is that you won, your build seems to be a bit clunky if you ask me. It lacks a few essential cards that are usually found in Fish Builds.

[uwfish2000]

@Everrid1234: Tarmogroyfs? with 4 leyline after sideboard and jotun grunt is enough. But those two never came up.
                     Blue blast -> burn/goblin.

@EVG: - i didn't have another underground sea
          - E.Truth -> pitch for force of will, can bounce token (bridge from below - zombie infestation - empty the warren).
                          Stp give your opponent life and can only target creature.
          - Vamp & mystical - put on top lybrary.
          - Demonic - a good card, but i think it's not on my slot.
          - Leyline - yes, it cut my grunt life time. But my opponent (i think there would be 2 C.Slaver , 2 Ichorid and affinity) hard to win.

vs mono black : dauthi horror, dark confidant, dauthi warlord, duress, carnopage, sacromancy and forgot
vs aggro stax : gorrila shaman, smoke stax, Lightning bolt, juggernaut, duplicant, welder, chalice of the void and forgot
vs dawn of the dead : dark confidant, tarmogroyf, jotun grunt, stp, and forgot
vs Back to Basic : Back to basic, morphling, mana drain, force of will, spell snare, mana leak, powder keg, and forgot

[Everrid1234]

I am sorry to say this but these decks don't sound like real top decks.
Dauthi Horror? Lightning Bolt in Stax? The last 2 decks seem ok but we don't see the full lists. Whatever.

I would really like to see some new discussion about the deck of interest?
uwfish2000 (and others, who also did this): Why did you cut the Stifles? Weren't they good enough?
Any new ideas for the decklist?

[Arsenal]

I've been looking at Grimoire Thief alot lately; she looks saucy.  Thief forces your opponent to rethink how he stacks the top of his library (via Brainstorm, Ponder, Sensei's Divining Top, etc).  This is powerful.  It also has good synergy w/ Thoughtseize as your opponent can no longer just smirk and Brainstorm in response when you have an active Thief out; Thief forces tough decisions.

She's a 2/2 beater for 2.  Fits into Fish's mana curve.

The activated ability looks semi-interesting, as it can serve as Stifle 5-8 IF you were able to steal your opponent's Storm-kill card.  This is not realistc, however, as most Storm decks play 1, maybe 2, copies total of their kill card.  The chances of you stealing 1 of their 2 cards is slim. 

I don't know, might be a danger of cool things card, but she looks interesting; SB material perhaps?