WUb Fish: Deck Discussion

[wethepeople]

Considering that the UW Fish thread is strictly warranted to discussion of UW Fish, I chose to create a new thread so all further discussion of the deck can be done here, not in the UW Primer. Although, the link to the other thread can be found here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30089.0

May I start by saying that there have been countless different variations of UW Fish with a black splash presented here on TMD, many of which have been strong. But the reason being that I want to bring back discussion of the deck is Extirpate, since I am sure that I have not been the only one trying to give it a slot in Fish.

For those of you unaware of what Extipate even is, the link to the card's dicussion can be found here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31719.0

The Transformation from UW to WUb:

The WUb build generally starts out with the standard UW build, we shall take Feinstein's most recent build that he used at TMD X for referal:

UW Fish by Dave Feinstein
8th place @ TMD X:

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Island
    4  Flooded Strand
    4  Tundra
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Windswept Heath
    1  Plains

// Creatures
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    2  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    3  Savannah Lions

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Force of Will
    3  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Null Rod
    1  Time Walk
    3  Daze
    1  Misdirection
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2  Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Orim's Chant
SB: 2  Old Man of the Sea
SB: 2  Threads of Disloyalty

Other threads created on the subject of WUb and decks of the like can be found in the following links:

BPK's Oath of Ghouls Fish, which abuses Aether Vial and then recurs using Oath of Ghouls:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30576.0

dnine's 4c Hide/Seek build that is similar to WUb, it however was created to utilize Hide/Seek:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29983.0

Super Fish! by Vegeta2711:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31654.0

All of the above links are different lists that have something fairly different in them, however since they all fall under a relative category, I thought it would be good to add them so everyone has access to all of the different options for the deck that can be found on TMD.
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Before one chooses to add the splash, please, review your metagame thoroughly before doing so. If you are in a field heavy of Stax and Fish, please, keep it UW, for the mana base of 3c obviously is weaker, and Wastelands tend to make the deck inconsistent. Although, if your environment more-so consists of Gifts, Control Slaver, and other Drain decks, the black splash is the way to go, because black gives you cards that greatily improve such matchups, those of which I will get to in a moment.

Now that we have the base of our deck, we must cut cards for the incoming black spells. Before I do so, I would like to point out cards that are eligible to make the list, just so we know what to cut to keep the mana curve fair, as well as know how many cards to remove.

First in fore most, add Dark Confidant, for reasons that can easily be left unsaid. So we now must make room for four Bobs.

Duress- The number of Duresses main deck can be all different quantities, although I personally like to run three. The final Duress can easily be placed in the sideboard to be brought in versus Combo, Drain decks, etc, in exchange for MD creature removal such as Swords to Plowshares.

Lastly, Extirpate. Ext looks like it can very well make it's way into the deck, however I have not yet determined the actual number I plan to run. That however is something that should be discussed here, in this thread.

Okay, so we now must make room for atleast seven cards in the maineck (bob and Duress). In order to keep the curve in line, I want to cut a 2-cc for Dark Confidant, and a 1-drop for Duress.

Considering that I have no respect what so ever for Savannah Lions/Isamaru, I have no problem with cutting them, and in UWb, I personally feel they are not necessary. They may have their place in UW, however they still do not impress me.

-3 Savannah Lions
-2 Isamarus

+3 Duress
+2 Dark Confidant

With two more Dark Confidants left, I now need to find two addtional slots for them. I feel inclined to cut Misdirection, despite it's great strength, however it is terrible with four Dark Confidants, and having four Force of Wills is enough damage.

The curve seems a little two high on two now, so it seems best to cut Null Rod for Chalice of the Void, for CotV does virtually the same thing, and more, for 0.

-3 Null Rods
+3 CotV

With three on-color Moxen, and 3 Chalices all MD, Kataki is not my favorite creature to draw. I may put the count down to two because after you have resolved a CotV-0, Kataki does nothing but tap out your own Moxes as well as force you to pay to keep it in play. Kataki is very solid, I know, and I hate having to run just two, however in order for me to keep the deck in line it looks to me like the best solution. Although, I still would like to run 1-2 in the board for Stax, as well as when I am on the draw because Chalice of the Void becomes infinitely times worse.

-1 Kataki, War's Wage
+1 Dark Confidant

So, they creature base now looks like this:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, War's Wage

I have been told before that all t1 decks should run eight or so draw spells. Originally, UW ran just five, Brainstorm, and AR, but with the black splash we are given four more.

Now, we must move onto the deck's utility.

3 Chalice of the Void (in replace of Null Rod)
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorms
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Swords to Plowshares

The reason that I put Etruth and StP in bold is that at this point in Vintage, Gifts is more dominant than Fish. Recently, Gifts has been running Empty the Warrens (ETW) over Tinker, so StP becomes weaker than Echoing Truth. The only situation that I can really imagine Swords to Plowshares being stronger is of course versus Fish, where you would rather get rid of a creature permanently than see him return next turn or so. However, I myself, and other Fish players, like to design my maindeck based around tier one, not opposing aggro decks. I prefer to leave my sideboard to Fish.

Dave Feinstein also mentioned that he would rather decrease the number of StP's maindeck, in exchange for additional Echoing Truth. So it should now look like this:

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Echoing Truth

Dave however said that he would rather run 3 E-truths, but here in WUb the creature base is all 2-CC's, so, I would like different Bounce, just incase my opponent happens to drop Chalice of the Void at two.

+1 Rushing River

I understand that I could very well use Chain of Vapor, however, Chalice of the Void is just as commonly placed at one because my curve also is high at 1-ccs, so, I figured it would be best to run Rushing River, because I personally have never seen Chalice hit three counters.

Extirpate really wants to find it's way into here, however I have not yet determined whether or not it is worth a MD slot, or the SB.

Now to the final part of the deck, the mana base. The mana base doesn't change that much, really. I won't get into details though, but here is the MB I have decided on.

Mana Base [22]:

3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wastelands
1 Strip Mine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Basic Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus

Once again, I chose to add two Shocklands in replace of one of the equivalent Duals. My reason being is that if Extirpate is all it is being hyped up to be, I don't want my mana base to get completely ruined when they use Ext. targeting Underground Sea.

I cut a Wasteland because I feel that mana denial is not the strongest gameplan right now, since so many decks actually run basic land. I also hate to see them show up early game when I am working to find a specific color, which is fairly common in 3c.

In the other UWb Fish thread, or Super Fish, found in the closed Forum, "Vegeta2711" chose to cut Mox Sapphire from his build for understandable reasons. Mox Sapphire has actually been like an off-color Mox to me, because I more commonly need white or black early game. I may cut it and test it, see if it shows any significant difference, if not, I will use the slot for something else.

This overall is the final MD list I have finished with. It can easily be modified for any given situation, and I plan to post updates for what I do in the near future. Others with feedback, additional lists, or any other objections please speak up, because after all, this thread is meant for any further discussion of the deck.


WUb Fish:

// Fishies [13]:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, War's Wage

// Utility [25]:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Duress
2 Stifle
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Time Walk
3 Brainstorms
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
1 Engineered Explosives

// Mana Base [22]:
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wastelands
1 Strip Mine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Basic Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
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The sideboard tends to vary from time to time, because I switch things around constantly. I have not yet established a definite list of selections, however, it should have some of the following:

1 Duress - For Control/Combo. Side out 1 Swords to Plowshares.

2 Energy Flux- Narrow, yes, but the Stax matchup, weak as it is, needs to be improved because there is always the slight chance that I will come across the deck. -2 StP

1 Kataki, War's Wage - Bring in for Stax every chance that you can. As well as Gifts and CS if you are on the draw, side out the second StP.

2-3 Engineered Explosives - Assuming that Gifts is bringing in ETW, I usually bring in EE to handle all of those little 1/1 Goblin tokens, at the least, you can blow up a few Moxes. I also bring in EE for opposing Fish decks rather than using Umezawa's Jitte, because Jitte is too narrow to take up two or three slots in my sideboard.

The other slots usually consist of something like Tormod's Crypt/Leyline/Extirpate, additional Swords to Plowshares, or Darkblast, although I tend to add/remove those too often for me to be able to post a definite list. If you plan to play this deck, adjust your SB accordingly to your desired metagame.
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That is all I have to say for now, thank you for taking the time to read.  Despite my list, I mainly put this thread together to create a base for discussion of WUb, rather than cluttering up the UW Primer with posts concering a different deck, although, that list is what I have been using most-recently.

//wtp.

EDIT: Re-formated decklist

[Outlaw]

You do understand that sacred foundry is U/r right? I think your looking for Hallowed Fountain.

[wethepeople]

I fixed it, but actually, you got mixed up also. Sacred Foundry is W/R. Steam Vents is U/R. Those Ravnica lands are hard to remember, but thanks for pointing that out, Outlaw.

[Lymph]

The curve seems a little two high on two now, so it seems best to cut Null Rod for Chalice of the Void, for CotV does virtually the same thing, and more, for 0.

I would rather drop a Null Rod than any other 2 drop against Tier 1 decks. If you still want to go the Chalice route you might want to play 4 ? Unlike Null Rod, Chalice is most effective on turn 1.

I thought the whole reason to add B to UW Fish was Extirpate ? Yet you only briefly discuss them. Also I think Duress is missing in your last list (or I might need some sleep).

ETW forces fish to run a "bad" card like Echoing Thruth. I personally love E. thruth in control and combo/control decks but in Fish it has a pretty limited use ? Isn't Stifle/Meddling Mage backed up with counters enough ?

[kirdape3]

Short answer to the last question: No.  Stifle is eminently counterable, Trickbind costs one too much, and Meddling Mage is vulnerable to getting itself killed (and/or they can just Tendrils you anyways).

That curve though makes baby Jesus cry.  Here's what you have to do on turn 1:

3 Chalice of the Void (Since the card is intended for a turn 1 play, why would you only run 3?  Seeing it in the opening hand is a prerequisite, right?)
2 Stifle (again, why only 2 since it's most effective early on?)
4 Daze

I'm not counting Brainstorms because you're the aggressive deck and if you're going to waste your time casting Brainstorm rather than even running a Stifle on their fetchland then good luck.

If I was playing with such a square curve, I'd be running as many ancillary accelerants as I could get my hands on, including Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal.  You are going to want to hit two mana on turn 1 every chance you can get.

[wethepeople]

I did actually forget to add Duress to that list, because I mistakenly copied and pasted that section from the wrong file. It should go as follows:

Utility:
3 Duress
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Echoing Truth
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rushing River
2 Stifle

kirdape3: My list does have some flaws, yes, but the reason that I chose to start this thread was to work on these kinds of things.

I will start by saying that I chose to run Stifles because according to Dave Feinstein, the two MD ones worked rather well for him at the TMD Open. I also tried them out, and they proved well. I have recently seen a slight increase of fetchlands, so Stifle I may very well increase in my main board.

Keep in mind that I originally intended for there to be three Duress MD, also. Only three Dazes, no Mystical Tutor, and three Brainstorms to keep a draw engine of eight.

Chalice of the Void has been played at four, and I personally was not in love with it. I often time drew multiples and didn't usually like holding the second one or casting it with any counters because it crippled so many cards in my deck. I came down to three because it is solid, don't get me wrong, just I didn't prefer seeing it in multiples.

My first turn usually wants to go something like this:

Land, Duress. go// Land, go. Stifle your fetch.

All the while looking to cast Chalice of the Void at zero, and Dazing various targets.

Turn two generally consists of me casting something like Dark Confidant, or Meddling Mage, depending on my opponent's deck, and if I am able to get a Mox out there, turn two becomes my turn one.

I don't usually use Brainstorm turn one unless my hand is fairly poor, and I am looking to fix it. The reason I even use Bstorm is that I use six fetchlands, and it saves me late game when I have run out of threats.

In older WUb builds of mine, I have actually run Lotus Petal. It wasn't outstanding, however it did help me early game when I was in need of one specific color quite a few times. Chrome Mox never even crossed my mind really. It seems weak in three color because you must have two cards of the color you actually want to cast, first being the one you pitch, the second being the one you are trying to resolve using Chrome Mox's mana. Due to the fact that I have always been told "Chrome Mox sucks, it create card disadvantage" causes me to ignore such cards, although, if you say it is good, I am willing to test it out.
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I thought the whole reason to add B to UW Fish was Extirpate ? Yet you only briefly discuss them. Also I think Duress is missing in your last list (or I might need some sleep).

I am sorry for the flaws in my list, I accidentally copied one section from one file, and the rest from the other.

Extirpate has not been officially added to my list quite yet. Due to the fact that it hasn't been known of for such a short time, I haven't been able to test it enough to determine where I am putting it, and, the quantity I plan to run. I have been looking into 2-3 MD, then 1 more in the board, however it's too early for me to really decide.

This is the reason why I am asking others who play this deck to test things out, such as Extirpate, and return with their results.

[Vegeta2711]

Chalice of the Void has been played at four, and I personally was not in love with it. I often time drew multiples and didn't usually like holding the second one or casting it with any counters because it crippled so many cards in my deck. I came down to three because it is solid, don't get me wrong, just I didn't prefer seeing it in multiples.

I don't think I've ever been sad to see multiples. There's one of three things that'll happen when you get multiples.

1. The first one gets countered and I have a second.
2. I have the first one and on turns 2-4 I could possibly go for a Chalice @ 1 to go along with that.
3. I play Chalice @ 0 and have a dead card. Boo-hoo. It also means that I'm probably not going to die in the first three turns barring mad luck.

Also what's with the Rushing River? 3cc bounce is awful in fish.

[Everrid1234]

As I posted in the other thread, the mana base is imo the biggest problem of this deck.
If Confidant and Duress were white....

A 3-color-mana base makes fetching difficult.

You play Duress, Daze, Stifle, Brainstorm...
All these cards are often played on turn 1. Lets say you got Duress, Stifle, Fetchie and some other cards on turn 1.
You face an unknown deck.
Do you fetch for Underground Sea then and Duress? Or keep the Duress to Stifle a maybe-coming Fetchie/Wasteland and so waste Duress' power?
You will fetch for U. sea and Duress. You can't fetch for Swamp.
Now a Wasteland can come and you are maybe screwed and you can't use Stifle to make enemy's Wasteland worthless.
I think Stifle and Duress in the same deck is just not good. Stifle needs to be online turn 1.

I think these scenarios happen not only seldom. I tested a very similar version a longer time the last days and the problem was that i often could't play the cards I wanted.
You got down to 3 Wastelands. But Wastelands are so good. You play Stifle to keep enemy's mana low.....but only 3 Wastelands. This doesn't fit together. So what do you want with your deck?
You need 2 different duals to play all your cards. It's not easy to get 2 different duals online in the early game.
If you play in a Wasteland-free meta....ok....

I think the UWb principle in Fish isn't better than UW. The cards don't fit so much together like in UW Fish. UW is just straight. UWb can also rock but you need something like Land, Mox, Confidant to have a good match.
The UWb build wants to pack all great cards in 1 deck but i think this won't pay off.

The fetching decision problems, the weak mana base, the Stifle/Wasteland combination, Brainstorm being played so often --> making Duress weaker.....
You try to reduce the costs of the cards you play....so you play Chalice of the Viod.
A bad card imo. I think the main tactic of these UWb build is that you want to drop a Confidant turn 1 and hit the opponent hard by Chalice (which is ONLY good turn 1....i mean relatively good. Drawing it later not even weakens a Rebuild which also bounces the Chalice). This deck relies a bit much on Confidant.

And only 3 Brainstorm.... ???

[wethepeople]

Chalice of the Void has been played at four, and I personally was not in love with it. I often time drew multiples and didn't usually like holding the second one or casting it with any counters because it crippled so many cards in my deck. I came down to three because it is solid, don't get me wrong, just I didn't prefer seeing it in multiples.

I don't think I've ever been sad to see multiples. There's one of three things that'll happen when you get multiples.

1. The first one gets countered and I have a second.
2. I have the first one and on turns 2-4 I could possibly go for a Chalice @ 1 to go along with that.
3. I play Chalice @ 0 and have a dead card. Boo-hoo. It also means that I'm probably not going to die in the first three turns barring mad luck.

Also what's with the Rushing River? 3cc bounce is awful in fish.

I know that I am not going to die if I draw multiples, but I much rather would get something else. I have of course considered running four, and I may very well do so, but right now, I prefer three.

Rushing River is janky, I agree, and I do plan to cut it. The only reason I have chose to use it that my curve is heavy on one and two, and my only form of bounce is on two. So if they were to put a CotV on two I wouldnt be able to bounce it, nor play any creatures. However, after some additional consideration, I realized that I shouldn't even be that worried about CotV, well atleast not as much as I am. I chose to design this deck without Stax and Fish in hand, but Gifts, CS, and Combo. Last I checked, none of those decks run Chalice of the Void.

Should I run a third Echoing Truth, or a Chain of Vapor after I cut Rushing River? I will try both, but I am inclined to run CoV to keep my bounce spells diversed.

[technogeek5000]

I recently switched my deck around to be UWB fish... since i am new to the deck can anyone give me some advice. Here is my list:

Mana(22):
4 Polluted delta
3 Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground sea
3 Wasteland
1 Black lotus
1 Flooded strand
1 Mox jet
1 Mox saphire
1 Mox pearl
1 Strip mine

Men(15):
4 Dark confidant
4 Meddling mage
3 Jotun grunt
2 Isamaru, Hound of konda
1 Kataki, war's wage
1 Phyrexian negator

Disruption(14):
4 Daze
4 Force of will
3 Duress
3 Null rod

Draw/tutor(6):
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral recall
1 Demonic tutor

Other(3):
2 Echoing truth
1 Time walk

Sideboard(15):
3 Threads of disloyalty
2 Energy flux
2 Swords to plowshares
2 Trickbind
2 Tormod's crypt
2 Ummezawa's jitte

I messed around with this deck with my dad and its seems solid. For some bizzare reason i could fit in any maindeck swords... Any thoughts?

[BreathWeapon]

Stating that U/W/B Fish shouldn't be used in a field of U/W Fish is illogical, Fish is designed to compete against the tier one, thus all Fish decks will use the colors and cards that give it the strongest match against Combo and Control and not the strongest match against other Fish decks; following the previous line of logic, Fish should be abandoned for Workshop Aggro or Oath.

Get Swords to Plowshares out of this deck, it does nothing against the Tier 1, and the SB has stronger cards against Fish. Swords to Plowshares is a bad Echoing Truth, there's no reason to add a non-Blue removal card that does less than Echoing Truth against the Tier 1.

Extirpate is a bad SB card, it has to be the single most overrated card I have seen in Vintage since Isochron Scepter.

[keys]

Get Swords to Plowshares out of this deck, it does nothing against the Tier 1, and the SB has stronger cards against Fish. Swords to Plowshares is a bad Echoing Truth, there's no reason to add a non-Blue removal card that does less than Echoing Truth against the Tier 1.

StP is still better against a variety of frequently played threats including but obviously not limited to Goblin Welder, Dark Confidant, Auriok Salvagers, Triskelion, and DSC (although you're right that Echoing Truth is better here).  I agree with the OP that 2 should suffice for the maindeck.

[wethepeople]

As I posted in the other thread, the mana base is imo the biggest problem of this deck.
If Confidant and Duress were white....

A 3-color-mana base makes fetching difficult.

You play Duress, Daze, Stifle, Brainstorm...
All these cards are often played on turn 1. Lets say you got Duress, Stifle, Fetchie and some other cards on turn 1.
You face an unknown deck.
Do you fetch for Underground Sea then and Duress? Or keep the Duress to Stifle a maybe-coming Fetchie/Wasteland and so waste Duress' power?
You will fetch for U. sea and Duress. You can't fetch for Swamp.
Now a Wasteland can come and you are maybe screwed and you can't use Stifle to make enemy's Wasteland worthless.
I think Stifle and Duress in the same deck is just not good. Stifle needs to be online turn 1.

I think these scenarios happen not only seldom. I tested a very similar version a longer time the last days and the problem was that i often could't play the cards I wanted.
You got down to 3 Wastelands. But Wastelands are so good. You play Stifle to keep enemy's mana low.....but only 3 Wastelands. This doesn't fit together. So what do you want with your deck?
You need 2 different duals to play all your cards. It's not easy to get 2 different duals online in the early game.
If you play in a Wasteland-free meta....ok....

I think the UWb principle in Fish isn't better than UW. The cards don't fit so much together like in UW Fish. UW is just straight. UWb can also rock but you need something like Land, Mox, Confidant to have a good match.
The UWb build wants to pack all great cards in 1 deck but i think this won't pay off.

The fetching decision problems, the weak mana base, the Stifle/Wasteland combination, Brainstorm being played so often --> making Duress weaker.....
You try to reduce the costs of the cards you play....so you play Chalice of the Viod.
A bad card imo. I think the main tactic of these UWb build is that you want to drop a Confidant turn 1 and hit the opponent hard by Chalice (which is ONLY good turn 1....i mean relatively good. Drawing it later not even weakens a Rebuild which also bounces the Chalice). This deck relies a bit much on Confidant.

And only 3 Brainstorm.... ???

The reason I chose not to respond to your post until now is that I couldn't even believe a majority of the things you had to say.

I will start however, by answering your question. Game one, versus an unknown opponent, I generally like to use Duress over Stifle/Brainstorm, this is simply so I know what they are playing, and I know which choices to make for the next few turns. If my opponent comes out with a Wasteland on my Underground Sea, that sucks, that is all I have to say. There is no possible way for me to have planned for that and made the right play, but keep in mind, I intended this deck to not-be based around decks that use Wastelands, but more importantly Gifts, Combo, etc.

Chalice of the Void, a bad card? I think not. Chalice single-handedly allows you to shut down various essential cards found in most all Vintage decks. Not only can it take out Moxen, but if you would like to pay a few mana and give it charge counters, you can prevent countless other cards from ever hitting the board. Personally, I think Chalice is better than Null Rod because it only costs zero, the only problem being that it only works properly on the play.

You say that this deck depends too much on Dark Confidant, yet that is entirely wrong. Dark Confidant is a card that I love to see in my opening hand, don't get me wrong, but without it the deck is basically just UW Fish minus the 1-drop creatures. I have won numerous games without bob, I dont understand why in any way you would say that I absolutely need him, because I am certain that is not the case.

I run only three Wastelands? Okay, you're right there, although, I went over this is my original post, and my reason being is that early game, I am more commonly looking to find colored mana, rather than multiple Wastelands that only give me colorless. I run Stifle because it doesnt take my land-drop for that turn, and make my turn two a repeated turn one, but at the same time does virtually the same thing as Wasteland, plus more.

It'd probably be good if you actually read posts before you respond.

Technogeek5000:
Your list looks real heavy at 2-cc threats, which problems creates some problems with your curve. However, this can be changed fairly easily by swapping out a few cards for another.

First off, Null Rod turns into Chalice of the Void. Duress now replaces Isamarus/Lions, for both of them are your common turn 1 plays.

I am wondering why you run Demonic Tutor. I cut Mystical Tutor myself because I thought it was weak, so Demonic can't be any better. Also, you run four Brainstorms, which isn't completely necessary. I am fine with just three, mainly because you don't want your turn one play to be land, bstorm, go. I generally like drawing it after I have set up a threat or two and need to refill my hand, and if I possibly have a fetch, all the better.

Lastly, what's with Negator? I understand I guess that you want a clock of some sort, but why just as a 1-of. I never would recomend running a 1-of in a deck of zero Tutors, unless that is, if they are AR, or Time Walk. You should probably cut that for a second Kataki, War's Wage.

For some bizzare reason i could fit in any maindeck swords... Any thoughts?

This is because you never cut the Isamarus, or the fourth Daze, but still chose to add Echoing Truth. I wouldn't bother adding them unless your meta is really Fished, but even then you probably shouldn't be playing the third color, better yet, you probably shouldn't even bother with Fish games and play Oath or something.
---

BreathWeapon, the reason I still play those last two Swords to Plowshares is that Fish hasn't entirely disappeared, so I still want to atleast have something maindecked for that matchup, even if it is just two cards. I am still thinking about running zero, but that combined with my three color manabase may commonly result in a first game loss, and then I would be forced to win the following two games post-board in order to even have a chance.

[technogeek5000]

I chose to play UWB fish because i own a playest of u seas, confidants, and other assorted fish stuff. And i live in the northeast which is flooded with gifts and slaver decks. Since there are many drain decks i think i will stick with the 4 daze and 4 Fow.

so if i was to follow your changes they would be something like...
-1 Demonic tutor
-1 negator
-1 brainstorm
-3 null rod

-3 chalice of the void
+1 kataki
+2 (Extirpate maybe)

[wethepeople]

One last minor suggestion is that you probably should run four Duress and three Daze. Daze is weak versus Drain decks because it's rare for good players to find themselves tapped out, so Duress seems stronger here.

After you test out Extirpate, could you give me a little feedback on how it worked for you?

[technogeek5000]

One last minor suggestion is that you probably should run four Duress and three Daze. Daze is weak versus Drain decks because it's rare for good players to find themselves tapped out, so Duress seems stronger here.

After you test out Extirpate, could you give me a little feedback on how it worked for you?

Sure, least i could do for the advice you gave me

[technogeek5000]

back after several games of testing heres what i have come to...

The deck gets broken plays with extirpate but this doesnt outweigh the color imbalance (atleast for my deck). 6/10 i wanted the extirpate to be something i could pitch to my force. This is added to the fact that extirpate is dead if your opponent has nothin good in the yard and you dont have a way to put soething there which showed up atleast once or twice if i remember correctly.

So all and all i dont think fish is the correct deck to put it in. If it was my opinion i would put it in the sideboard of the new B/R stax deck.

[wethepeople]

back after several games of testing heres what i have come to...

The deck gets broken plays with extirpate but this doesnt outweigh the color imbalance (atleast for my deck). 6/10 i wanted the extirpate to be something i could pitch to my force. This is added to the fact that extirpate is dead if your opponent has nothin good in the yard and you dont have a way to put soething there which showed up atleast once or twice if i remember correctly.

So all and all i dont think fish is the correct deck to put it in. If it was my opinion i would put it in the sideboard of the new B/R stax deck.

The color imbalace only seems logical if you cut a blue spell. What did you cut from the maindeck to create a slot for Extirpate, and how many did you use?

[technogeek5000]

i tried all the changes you told me to do, so i was down a brainstorm and a daze. but i guess this could be changed

also i think to make this deck competitive, this deck needs the turn 1 2/x play to keep it consistent so I believe it should run four moxes. any feedback

[wethepeople]

i tried all the changes you told me to do, so i was down a brainstorm and a daze. but i guess this could be changed

also i think to make this deck competitive, this deck needs the turn 1 2/x play to keep it consistent so I believe it should run four moxes. any feedback

I have been told to run additional Moxes to be able to achieve my turn two situation earlier, however, it hasn't become a problem since I have so many strong turn 1 threats.

With the lack of Moxen, Wasteland becomes weaker because it slows me down just as much as my opponent, so I am going to try running five and see how it goes.

I did give you suggestings concerning your list, however I didnt believe that it would create room for Extirpate, so I don't see what it was that caused you to find room for those final slots. How many do you run MD?

[technogeek5000]

i made all the changes except the null rod... so that means...

-1 Demonic tutor
-1 negator
-1 brainstorm

+1 kataki
+2 Extirpate

I like null rod infinately better then chalice of the void because chalice is dead if they go first and lay their moxes. The reason null rods are there is because it is its primary form of mana denial.

the deck does not need 5 moxes, 4 should be fine. if the deck does go 4 moxes i believe then that chalice would be more viable then null rod in this build. if you were running 4 wastelands then just cut 1 for a mox and that should eliminate the problem you stated

[wethepeople]

I updated my list a little:

-1 Echoing Truth
+1 Engineered Explosives

As minor of a change as it is, I prefer EE over Truth because it handles multiple Fishies, Chalice, and most-importantly, Empty the Warrens.

I cut Rushing River for the fourth Chalice after being suggested multiple times by the above posters. I am sorry that I was against running four at first, after doing more testing than ever with all four, and no River, this was my final conclusion.

I don't know how this is going to turn out, but I am going to temporarily try Extirpate over Stifle main deck. I have been thinking this over a bit, and in order for me to keep the curve in line I can't cut a 2-cc. Duress can't be cut because Extirpate is at it's best with Duress, and Stifle being a 2'of seems like the best decision, because I do not want to run more than 2-3. Both being reactive spells that require your opponent to actually do something, it seems like a fair switch. Any input on this?

Keep in mind that this would NOT be a permanent change, it is just something I have considered doing so I can get some additional testing with Extirpate.

[Klaan]

So, I do not consider myself a good player nor good at vintage especially (legacy is my thing, but I do play UWb fish in legacy).  Forgive me for any shorthand or grammatical errors, writing is not my specialty.  I played today at a ~20 person tournament and I'd like to post some of my match up information:

The list:

// Lands
    2  Tundra
    1  Swamp
    2  Underground Sea
    3  Polluted Delta
    3  Flooded Strand
    1  Island
    1  Snow-Covered Island
    1  Plains
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Jotun Grunt

// Spells
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Chalice of the Void
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Time Walk
    4  Force of Will
    3  Daze
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mind Twist
    4  Duress
    1  Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Chalice of the Void
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 3  Glowrider
SB: 3  Darkblast
SB: 2  Swords to Plowshares


For ~5 minutes they said that Planar Chaos was legal (before taking it back and making it not legal) so I was thinking what to replace for Extirpate and ended up with this:
-1 MD Duress
-1 Dark Confidant
-1 Wasteland
-1 SB Chalice of the Void
-1 SB Glowrider

+3 MD Extirpate
+1 SB Extirpate
+1 SB Duress


Round 1: vs Tog  [0-0-0]
Game 1 started poorly: I kept a tundra+moxjet+duress+FoW+etc. hand and he went first.  He first turn duressed, I forced then he forced and he took my mox.  I dropped my land and brainstormed into creatures.  He then wastelanded my tundra and I scooped to game 2.
Game 2 was amazing:  I started w/ a Sea and passed.  He dropped a black duel and duressed which I forced.  Then he dropped a lotus and cracked for black for a plague spitter which I then dazed.  Lots of things happened after that but the game winning play was an EOT vamp for lotus and next turn mind twisted for 5 (of his 6 hand).  He scooped
Game 3 was horrible: Plague spitter first turn that I couldn't deal with and then when I dropped a grunt he Kavu'd.

Round 2: vs Stax [0-1-0]
Game 1 was tech: He get a stax turn 2 (land+lotus) then I played Kataki.  He upped stax and passed.  I sacced a land, played a wasteland and got rid of his one land.  The I played a Mage naming Smokestack.  His next turn he was forced to sac his stax and crucible which I then rode into victory.
Game 2 was also tech: His first turn he dropped a Welder.  My first turn I dropped a pithing needle on welder.  Overall this game was rediculus with the amount of mana I denied him by drawing into 3 wastelands and a strip mine.  I ended up riding Jotun Grunt into victory.

Round 3: vs UWb Fish (gasp, the mirror) [1-1-0]
Game 1 was tough: Daze was an allstar in this game but it wasn't enough.  It came down to me at 4 with a confidant and him at 2 with no creatures.  I had played 2 Force of Wills so all I had to do was NOT get a Force off confidant but of course, I did.
Game 2 was fun: Nothing notable happened this game, just he played creatures, then I did then we'd trade some in combat and such.  Darkblast during upkeep and then dregding to recast allowed me to swing through with a kataki to end the game.
Game 3 was a draw: We were 2 minutes from 5 turns and neither of us could win by then so we drew.

Round 4: vs Tog (again!) [1-1-1]
Game 1 was easy: Mage naming Life from the Loam and a little countering caused him to scoop.
Game 2 was slaughter: With plague spitters and kavus my creatures didn't have much of a chance.  I ended up losing this game by a long shot.
Game 3 was slaughter, again: Almost the exact same plays and game 2.  Same outcome.

Round 5: ? [1-2-1]
My opponent never showed up so I got the win.

I ended up like 10th-ish with a record of 2-2-1.  Moral(s) of the story: Daze is an Allstar and Tog is a bad match-up.

I'm sorry the descriptions of the games are a little short and maybe a little vague but I'm getting a bit tired.  Any feedback on my list would be greatly appreciated.
Deck-list notes:

• Vampiric Tutor was put in because I couldn't find my Demonic Tutor else I would've played that. 
• In hindsight maybe -1 MD Swords to Plowshares and +1 MD Darkblast might've been better because I didn't see much Tinker-Colossus.
• I was thinking about doing something different in the SB: -1 Leyline, -1 Pithing Needle, -1 Darkblast (3 is unnecessary with one main as mentioned above), -1 Chalice of the Void (I never really sided this in) and added something else.

[Nastaboi]

I went 5-0-1 yesterday on a 15-man sanctioned tournament with the following:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

2 Isamaru. Hound of Konda
4 Savannah Lions
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jötun Grunt

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Duress
3 Null Rod

SIDEBOARD:

3 Orim's Chant
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
1 Duress

No Lotus or Jet because I couldn't borrow them. I played one WS aggro and five combo decks during the event. I sided out one Lion and Confidants out in every one of those five matches. I'm not ready to give up on Confidant yet, because he is still good, and better than any replacement. The black splash was however great because of Duress. Duress if the reason why I'll continue exploring UWb instead of going back to straight UW. I would up the Duress count to four MD and drop one Lion, and maybe one Confidant to make room for 4th Rod. Daze is perfect as 3-off maindeck giving general utility in the first game and leaving fear while you can SB it out for more dedicated answers in the second game.

[Kieranwolf]

Null Rod and Chalice are both good cards, in my opinion, but I think the idea that they do exactly the same thing is completely wrong. Sure, Chalice @ 0 prevents your opponent from resolving moxen and lotus and crypt, but it doesn't shut off artifacts already in play or prevent anyone from using Sol Ring, Mana Vault, or Mindslaver. Or welding in Lotus and cracking it for win mana, for that manner.

I always play both, myself. Chalices are best against Tendrils/ETW decks, and Null Rod on the field hurts well, every deck that relies on artifact activated abilities, especially CS (excluding times when it can get welded out immediately).

Chalice can get played around, but it's also more versatile. Null Rod is more effective but costs 2. Sometimes you want one, sometimes you want the other. They can actually protect each other, such as during times when you have Null Rod and/or Chalice @ 0, then you play Chalice @ 1 to prevent your opponent from targeting the Rod with Chain of Vapor or the Chalice with Repeal.

Anyway, I recommend 4 Chalice, and in builds that have tutors, at least 2 Null Rod. Three is better, four may be too many. As for Chalice, seeing two in a game isn't as bad as you might think.

This may sound dumb, but has anyone thought about Nausea for ETW token removal? I mention it because in the past, I used Diabolic Edict to good effect against Tinker -> Colossus, but if Smennen's trend is followed, ETW is the new creature threat. Also, it's not like Massacre is going to work against Gifts, or even Infest because of it's double black cost. Just an idea.

[Dxfiler]

This is my first time peeking in this thread  but I'm glad I finally did.  The lists in here look good.  Everyone has very similar card choices.  I'll get to that in a minute.  First a brief summary of my version of UBW fish that I decided to give a test drive at this past sundays templecon tournament:

// Lands
    3  Tundra
    2  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Underground Sea
    3  Flooded Strand
    3  Polluted Delta
    1  Island
    1  Scrubland

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    2  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    2  Savannah Lions

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    2  Swords to Plowshares
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    3  Duress
    1  Mox Jet
    3  Daze
    2  Echoing Truth
    2  Null Rod
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Misdirection

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 4  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2  Orim's Chant
SB: 2  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2  Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2  Kataki, War's Wage

It's important to note this was a 5 proxy tournament.  Because of that I expected a surge in fish and a good amount of gifts given the players.  24 people showed.  approximately 70-80% of the room was strictly fish or gifts :p  At least 14 players (7 gifts, 7 fish by my rough count) piloting those two archtypes.  There was also a dry slaver, an ichorid, a bomberman and some random decks. 

Round 1- Don /w Gifts- Loss 0-2
Round 2- Erik /w UWB fish- Win 2-1
Round 3- Ryan /w Gifts- Win 2-0
Round 4- Sam best /w Gifts- Loss 2-1 and wanted to shoot myself.

I went 2-2 and dropped.  Had I beaten Sam I could've drawn into top 8, but it wasn't meant to be.  I'm convinced the gifts match is good and I just had some rough losses.  Don smoked me and Sam Best nut drew me.  I had an interesting choice game 3 of dropping null rod off lotus and mana burning or choosing to drop it the following turn with a grunt.  I had force so I chose to wait.  Sam's openening hand was 6 accelerants and a brainstorm.  He draws for his first turn and makes a face, which I immediately take as a signal that he drew empty.  He plays Brainstorm, mox, mox, mox, crypt, sol ring, lotus (first red source) and I immediately fire out the FOW at it.  He has the pyroblast and then empties for 16.  I promptly lose.  Oh well. 

Top 8 was 3 fish, 3 gifts, a bomberman and dry slaver.  top 4 was 2 gifts, dryslaver bomberman.  It's interesting to note no fish made top 4.

I like this deck alot, it just needs some work.  The deck still needs an answer to empty beyond echoing truth.  Chalice might be it.  I was happy with the list but it needs work.  I like Nastaboi's list very much.  It appears to be the right direction that the deck wants to be headed in.  Here's my analysis on it:

I went 5-0-1 yesterday on a 15-man sanctioned tournament with the following:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

2 Isamaru. Hound of Konda
4 Savannah Lions
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jötun Grunt

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Duress
3 Null Rod

SIDEBOARD:

3 Orim's Chant
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
1 Duress

I like the very aggressive creature base.  Not crazy about 4 wastelands in the 3 color deck.  I'd put another sea in over one of them.  I like wasteland and wish i had run three, but four is definitely too much I think.  No STP main seems to be a growing trend, but i'm not sure how I feel about it.  There was a uw fish that top 8'd my tourney that basically took out plows for reb's.  He said he took my base list and just aded red.  Definitely an interesting direction to take the deck but I really like the raw power of confidant and duress.  I agree with people that duress is substantially better than confidant in this list because duress cant randomly kill you.  Confidant flips were generally good for me but I could see them being scary over the long haul.  With that said i had never considered siding them out.  I'm guessing Nastaboi sides them out for katakis post board against combo.  This is an interesting choice. 

I really like Rule of Law right now.  It seems better than orim;s chant given the amount of duress being played everywhere.  With rule of law out gifts/long has to pretty much bounce it or lose.  They could randomly tinker but that shouldn't be as common a play these days.  You won't be siding out echoing truth anyway.  arcane Lab is obviously a consideration here as well, since it can pitch to force of will, but Rule seems better as it can't be Reb'd or Pyroblasted.  That is HUGE.

If not maining swords to plowshares I really think they have to be somewhere in the sideboard.  I personally don't feel comfortable with no plow main, but I can understand the concern of space.  No swords bothers me the most in relation to other fish and bomberman.  I just feel naked not being able to plow a confidant or salvagers during a match.  I don't think jitte is enough here.  No threads, plows or Old man is just asking to lose the mirror. 

I think the consensus has already been reached that extirpate is a completely overrated card that has some impact but not really enough to warrant being played at this time, at least in this deck.  The spots in UWB fish are just too tight for extirpate to get in there.  I like it best as a one-of in a tutor based build.  It was originally in my list but I cut it because it wasn't doing enough, even as a one-of.  It just doesn't really advance your board position enough and it certainly doesn't pull you out of games where you're behind the way other  one-of's can.

Those are my thoughts on the deck right now.  Still not sure if I like it better than UW fish but I definitely think it'll have an impact.  It looks like from the results other people are posting that UWB fish is already putting up good results.  I'm sure there will be many more to come.

- Dave Feinstein

   

[Nastaboi]

I had two Darkblast in my SB against Welders and mirror, but they were cut last minute when I saw that metagame was all about combo. I had Dazes and one Lion boarded out by default, but I wanted to bring Seals agains in addition to default combo hate when facing Dragon, possible transformative Oath sideplan and Egg Tendrils decks. I brought Katakis in only against Egg Tendrils.

I don't like 3cc answers agains combo. You know, you can always Chant in response of Duress and buy another turn.

[technogeek5000]

I went 5-0-1 yesterday on a 15-man sanctioned tournament with the following:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

2 Isamaru. Hound of Konda
4 Savannah Lions
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jötun Grunt

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Duress
3 Null Rod

SIDEBOARD:

3 Orim's Chant
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
1 Duress

With the arrival of BR stax lists and he popularity of gifts, wouldnt kataki, atleast a one-of, be an auto inclusion. Savannah lions are good, but that seems to me like to much beats and not enough control for the format. They are still good, but they are the weakest creature in the build currently and they are a 4-of, so i would try cutting 1 for a kataki (using it as a 1-of is something ive been trying, it makes the singleton kataki better when you get it because the legendary creature type which it was printed with as its drawback is null and void)

-1 savannah lions
+1 kataki, war's wage

[wethepeople]

Dave, just by looking at your list, I was easily able to identify who it was. 

I spoke to you about the deck before, and your original list was very different than what you ended up with, though, that was earlier in your testing. The biggest things that stand out to me are- Null Rod, Misdirection, and Lions/Isamarus, this was the exact reason I knew that it was your list.

Misdirection being a 1'of isn't bad, it just works as a fifth Force of Will. Although, do you ever find yourself regretful of running it after revealing it via Dark Confidant, and in return, getting hit with five damage?

Personally, I much rather prefer Chalice of the Void in here, over Null Rod, despite it's weaknesses. Chalice can only be played on turn one, which can obviously become problematic when it is common for you not-to draw it opening hand, or simply lose the dice-roll. However, if it is too late to drop it with zero counters, I like being able to apply Charge counters if I am worried about an opposing threat.

I have found myself going with a turn 1 Duress, followed by a turn two Chalice at 1-2, depending on what my opp. revealed. Versus Combo, Chalice has won me various games when casted with 1 counter, because in my build, I don't lose any creatures, just Duresses, StPs, and Braisntorm. So it is a greater loss for them more-often than not.

Personally, I hate Isamaru's and Savannah Lions, though, I am in no position to get into a dispute over them. If they work for you, go for it.

I used to use Arcane Laboratory in my sideboard for Combo, not Rule of Law. I never used Law because in many of my prior Fish builds, I thought that Blue was always the more dominant color, so I would be more likely to have than . However, after getting hit by REB's, just as you pointed out, I made the switch. I am yet to try them in here, but they seem like a decent idea. With Rule of Law, it would require your opponent to take two turns to Tutor, and cast their bounce, all the while you can set up a creature base, or obtain some kind of countermagic.

I also came to similar conclusions over Extirpate, so Stifle is still going to be in that slot. Until that is, something better is recomended. I only play this deck part-time, because another Fish build that I put together has been getting much of my attention, as of late.

[Imzakhor]

BTW, you only have a 14 card sideboard.... Room for more hate!