[Planar Chaos] Simian Spirit Guide

[Pathian]

So this card was just leaked via an early draft in Russia, what do you guys think?

Simian Spirit Guide            2R
Creature - Ape Spirit   
Remove Simian Spirit Guide from the game: Add to your mana pool. Play this ability only if Simian Spirit Guide is in your hand.
2/2

An Elvish Spirit Guide timeshifted to red. Do you guys think this will see play over ESG or in any places ESG isn't?

[LotusHead]

Maybe Food Chain Goblins could get some nice accelleration.

Combo decks that might pack Wheel of Fortune.

Decks with Empty the Warrens.

Imagine this:
Taiga Kird Ape. Remove SSG, Remove SSB, Kird Ape, Kird Ape, go!

Decks that maindeck RedBlasts!

[Moxlotus]

An Elvish Spirit Guide timeshifted to red. Do you guys think this will see play over ESG or in any places ESG isn't?

No, but we've already redesigned a few decks to abuse the two of them together

[wethepeople]

An Elvish Spirit Guide timeshifted to red. Do you guys think this will see play over ESG or in any places ESG isn't?

No, but we've already redesigned a few decks to abuse the two of them together

[cough]Goblin Charbelcher.[/cough]

[simo66]

Simian Spirit Guide*   
Creature - Ape Spirit (TS) 
Remove Simian Spirit Guide from the game: Add R to your mana pool. Play this ability only if Simian Spirit Guide is in your hand.
 
Elvish Spirit Guide sees some play, and red is a more usefull color in vintage then green? What decks might this go in? Discuss.

[yespuhyren]

I think this could definitely be cool, though I think it might have more application in Legacy, though Belcher might have some use for it, I'm not sure.

[policehq]

I'd like to see it in an Empty the Warrens list that is strictly combo-oriented, but even then Elvish Spirit Guide + Tinder Wall might be better.

Is the casting cost and power/toughness the same?

As far as Belcher goes, I've dropped Goblin Welders for Dark Confidants, which is arguable, but still the only card that requires R is Wheel of Fortune. Taiga is one of the best cards in the deck, still, though.

-hq

[Xiphoid]

It's a timeshifted ESG, so yes, P/T and cost are the same.

[Klep]

I'm about 95% certain that SSG is better than Tinder Wall in Belcher.  They net the same amount of mana, only nothing can be done about SSG.  Is losing the blocker worth it?  Almost certainly.

As far as Belcher goes, I've dropped Goblin Welders for Dark Confidants, which is arguable, but still the only card that requires R is Wheel of Fortune. Taiga is one of the best cards in the deck, still, though.

This was a bad idea.  Goblin Welder is a primary factor in making the deck work against control.  If you resolve a Welder, you don't even have to resolve Belcher to win: just find it and cast it.  And if your opponent counters Welder, then the path is clear for Belcher.  Confidant can be nice, but I see him much more as a Wish target for when you run out of juice.  If you were finding that your opening hands weren't enough to win without some draw, then you probably aren't mulliganing correctly.

[policehq]

My comment regarding Tinder Wall was in reference to Empty the Warrens; in that particular case, if a combo deck dedicated to Empty the Warrens were created, you would net the same mana with SSG, but you have 1 storm count with Tinder Wall.

-hq

[nataz]

gogo gamble ichorid!

[lordmayhem]

An Elvish Spirit Guide timeshifted to red. Do you guys think this will see play over ESG or in any places ESG isn't?

No, but we've already redesigned a few decks to abuse the two of them together

Tendrils based? My interest in this card has sparked.

[Purple Hat]

given that they made ritual a red effect recently I think we're gonna see something from this.  Imagine a black esg....

[Methuselahn]

So you're telling me that all of my REBs and Pyroblasts just turned into Force of Will?

Free explosive mana always seems dangerous.  Definitely something to test somewhere.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Goblin Charbelcher, meet 8 Sprit Guides.  8 Spirit Guides, meet OH MY GOD WHAT THE HELL!!??

It's gotta be better than Tinder Wall, as Klep said.

[The Atog Lord]

Duplicate Topics Merged.

[Prometheon]

Tinder Wall is much better when not comboing off on turn 1 though. Turn one Tinder Wall, go gives you acess to three mana on turn two, as oppsoed to only two (and no blocks against random lackies or fishies).

I think an ideal belcher deck would run both.

[policehq]

Tinder Wall is much better when not comboing off on turn 1 though. Turn one Tinder Wall, go gives you acess to three mana on turn two, as oppsoed to only two (and no blocks against random lackies or fishies).

I think an ideal belcher deck would run both.

By "both," do you mean all three? What do you suggest should be cut for SSG?

-hq

[Klep]

Tinder Wall is much better when not comboing off on turn 1 though. Turn one Tinder Wall, go gives you acess to three mana on turn two, as oppsoed to only two (and no blocks against random lackies or fishies).

If that's all you can do on turn 1, you shouldn't have kept the hand.  Blocking doesn't matter in almost every situation because you should really be winning well before your life total becomes relevant.

I think an ideal belcher deck would run both.

Like policehq said, what would you cut?

[wethepeople]

I think an ideal belcher deck would run both.

Like policehq said, what would you cut?

Land?

I personally have never played Belcher, so I have no knowledge of the deck. But when it was at a bit of a craze I recall opponents revealing a land after their first few cards. Land Grant could go if you were to cut one, no?

[nataz]

You are kidding right? It's called 2-land belcher for a reason.

[wethepeople]

eh, I admit I have no idea of what I am talking about. I have never played Belcher, never will.

[Prometheon]

Land Grants and the two lands are absolutely neccessary. Belcher's main problem is lack of permanent mana sources, and I don't see SSG aiding in this problem.

It's an unstable deck, and this card doesn't really help. You can't just "figure out what to cut" and throw in four SSGs. If the card is going to be included, the deck is going to require an overhaul (perhaps incorporating Infernal Tutor?)

[Neonico]

You are kidding right? It's called 2-land belcher for a reason.

As far as i know the deck, i think that it could be interesting to cutt land grant to have another uncountrable way to start comboing. Land grant, reveal your hand in a FoW is one of the main weakness of the deck, i can understand that you want to remove them.

[helofloki]

Hi, excuse me, I'm a little bit of a vintage newb, and this is my first post.

Anyway, I was wondering if Simian Spirit guide has any viability in vintage. I know many decks at least used to use elvish spirit guide. Seems like the free red mana could be pretty damn useful. I don't really have any incredibly specific deck ideas, especially since I'm still getting used to the format, but I'd just like to hear what you guys think about it in general.

[That0neguy]

It is possible that belcher could move to a more red/black engine and run either EtW or ToA as backup kills in the event of pithing needle.  But I think that these kind of decks seem to go "all in" too much and are not as stable as more recent builds of combo, if not a little faster.

Also RFGing the spirit guide does not add storm, which seemed to be a problem in other storm based decks.

In Grim Long it is probably better than ESG just slightly since you can use the mana to play Burning wish or Wheel of fortune, but aside from that there is not much advantage

[helofloki]

yeah, I was deffinitely thinking it could increase the mana opportunities for charbelcher, make it a little more flexible in that area.

I think the only serious drawback of the card may be that its a card from your hand that won't contribute to storm count, but if you have draw 7's or good draw engines, there could be very easy ways to remedy that. Though as you said, that kind of play is pretty unstable, and it seems people are moving away from the put all your chips in type of deck. Personally I kind of like the excitement in the risk, and the surgeon skill decisions you have to make with that kind of commitment. The only thing with the spirit guide is it may be taking a spot that could be filled with something more efficient. It is, after all, only one shot of mana, so in that case it really could go either way. In my (extremely little experience) with vintage, mana is always welcome. So once again it comes down to the stormless factor of it.

I'm gonna think about it for a while. Honestly, I just think this card is really cool and I want to use it, if I find it's a real deadweight in the hand I'll drop it, but I'm deffinitely gonna try it out for now.