Ritual Gifts

[diopter]

I haven't tested swarm but I can see slight issues to adding a 4th necessary color in the mana base.  What do you cut when SBing swarm in?  With the speed of control, I like keeping FOW's in as they effect both sides of the table.

Also, I noticed that you cut LED from your latest list as I once did.  Comments?  After switching back to LED, I'll never cut this card again.

LED is back in (over a 15th land). It speeds up the kill by about 0.25 to 0.5 of a turn and you need that speed sometimes.

What I cut for Swarm is usually Mystical Tutor and the bounce spells, sometimes Time Walk. I generally board 3 Swarm against Drain Gifts, and 2-3 against Slaver, depending on whether I want one bounce spell to stay in the maindeck.

What are your thoughts on boarding more land against Fish/Stax?

[Scott_Limoges]

I would board another land against fish or stax which is especially strong against their sb plan of mana denial.  Maybe a basic island like you suggested is a good route.

I've realized that LED is one of the best cards in this build.  It fits perfectly with the ideas in that brief piece and has synergy with every card in the list barring FOW. 

After adiment playing, I've realized that comboing w/o gifts is faster and easier that with gifts.  If I draw LED or BLotus in an opening hand, I usually merchant scroll for mystical tutor and win next turn through Y. Will.  This win is just as quick but more of an all-in play - its almost exactly the same game winning steps as long varients.  Most times my opponent doesn't know what I'm playing after I win game one like this.  The longer I play this deck, the more flexible and faster it becomes in my hands.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I've realized that comboing w/o gifts is faster and easier that with gifts...its almost exactly the same game winning steps as long varients.

This is interesting to hear you say this; testing with/against this deck I find that while sometimes it's hybrid strategy is a benefit, it can also be a hinderance especially in regards to Gifts Ungiven because of it's mana intensity.

If you want to combo aggressively you often have to invest a dark ritual in casting Gifts.  If you do the typical pile of: Will, Recoup, Lotus, LED, and you get LED and Recoup, you still need five mana to execute the mana with FoW.  Obviously, duress circumvents this problem by only requiring 3 mana, but the chances you draw duress, and the chances they don't have 2x counter or their own duress/hate aren't as high as they were before recent metagame adaptations.  Compared with Pitchlong, the mana requirements to go off are usually strictly higher.

Consequently, if you slow down, you open yourself up to mana drain, meddling mage, 2nd lock piece, etc.  This type of interaction is symptomatic of how this deck can be too slow to race pro-active hate, but also not flexible enough (without drain) to play a more adept mid-game.  The key to this point is how on the one hand, RGifts often needs to invest ritual/vault/lotus to accelerate plays and then protect the bomb, where as in traditional gifts lists mana drain plays both roles, often at the same time.

[Scott_Limoges]

Mana can be a hinderance in the early game when casting gifts and decks like stax and fish can exploit this weakness - this is the weak point of the deck.  Mana denial in chalice is a devistating play that both decks run.  Relying on merchant scroll for finding bounce is the best solution I've ran across.

The threat of gifts is usually high enough to draw counters so if gifts resolves the path is usually clear.  All thats needed then is usually 2 mana for recoup.  The mana requirements of Pitch Long may be lower some games but also may be higher in others.  The uncertainty of draw 7's to bring the exact cards is a burden and sometimes multiple draw 7's are required that consume more mana (in addition to mulling your opponent into FOW that can also require more mana indirectly).  The precise mana requirements to win with Ritual Gifts is always known.  However, in gold fishing I'd agree that PLong requires less mana.

The good news is the three different paths to victory that can play around the obsticles that fish deploys like meddling mage or jotun grunt
-Gifts
-Scroll -> Mystical -> Yawgs Will
-Enchantments

[Scott_Limoges]

I want to discuss some of the other card options Ritual Gifts has available and when those options become superior to certain options in the "standard build".

For reference, this is standard build that I've used with success in a balanced metagame (containing fish, stax, combo, and control) and similar to the lists T8ing:


// Lands
    4  Polluted Delta
    2  Underground Sea
    1  Volcanic Island
    2  Flooded Strand
    1  Tolarian Academy
    2  Island
    1 Snowcovered Island
    1  Swamp

// Spells
    3  Gifts Ungiven
    4  Merchant Scroll
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor

    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Recoup
    1  Tendrils of Agony

    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Mana Vault

    4  Force of Will
    4  Duress

    1  Necropotence
    1  Yawgmoth's Bargain

    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Chain of Vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Chain of Vapor
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1  Rebuild
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Fire/Ice
SB: 2  Empty the Warrens
SB: 3  Massacre


So, some of the other strong options available should be used when we face (predict) a metagame that is skewed away from a balance number of archetypes and targeted towards a specific archetype (or even strategy).

The top options provide the greatest impact towards a specific archtype or maintain great synergy with the standard build while addressing the archtype or do both.  Lesser options provide the same impacts as the the top options but with less effectiveness.  Least options are the same as lesser options but with lower effectiveness.

Top Options:
Misdirection
Mind Twist
Burning Wish
4th Gifts Ungiven

Lesser Options
Empty the Warrens
REB
Timetwister (suggested by Bob Yu)
Tinker/Colossus

Least Options
Grim Tutor
Draw 7's (excluding Timetwister)


What are your thoughts about these options?  Do you agree with the rankings?  Are there other good options that haven't been listed?

We'll discuss what options should be used against what strategies next.

[Webster]

One of the problems I see with some of the options listed is that you have to look at the deck itself on a scale, MD gifts on one end and TPS/r on the other. Each side and increment towards the other yields a deck for a specific metagame. After reading this thread as well as looking at the updated list that you were using which was posted on page 3, I thought that this deck was a compromise between those two afformentioned decks. Whichever deck configuration you end up going with should be based on the expected metagame.

What do you need?

duress or misdirection?
mana drain or dark ritual?
gifts or draw 7's?


It doesn't seem correct to say that version X is the best because the metagame out here in California may be the exact opposite when compared to the mid-west or new england.


I do have suggestions for the listed build; minute details that I think are better.

1. I really don't care much for one volcanic island. I'd rather have two.

2. Hurkyl's recall over rebuild doesn't seem correct to me unless there's a heavy shop presence.

3. The three blast configuration in the sideboard should be two red elemental blast and one pyroblast since you're playing with the card gifts ungiven in the deck.

4. I don't really care much for draw 7's in a deck unless there are lots of ritual effects at which point you should probably just be playing grim long. It is true that you can set up different gifts packages that win without having to use yawgmoth's will, but at that point I'd rather just get a tutor + enchantment package and win with a big rebuild + tendrils.


None of this may actually answer any of your questions but it is something to think about.


Web

[Scott_Limoges]

I don't quit understand the context of your main points in regards to my last post (I'm very tired so that may be why).  I may need to read it tomorrow.

The main idea of the post was to provoke new ideas and tuning for Ritual Gifts based on metagame.  Now this is something completely different than what I have been encouraging prior to this post.  Before Ritual Gifts was known, I needed to defend certain arguements and provide logic because the deck was new and generally people didn't understand it and never played with it.  Now that people are familar, I would like to inspire new ideas and encourage others play more liberally (as if I really have a say though).

In the post, I discuss card options different than those in the "standard build".  I don't claim that any certain build of Ritual Gifts is superior in every meta.  In fact, I only imply that the "standard build" is best in an equally distributed or unknown meta of archtypes.

Recommending TPS or MDG instead of Ritual Gifts "depending on the metagame" is partly flawed.  For example, there are certain archtypes like fish that are difficult matches for both MDG and TPS.  Thats were card choices become important which can address issues like this.  As you know, Ritual Gifts is a very adaptable deck and can take on adventagous properties of both TPS and MDG when the situation arises.

Nice points in 1 - 4.  I agree with each when the metagame is suited.  Would you describe your reasons for rebuild over hurkyl's?

You did make me think

[BreathWeapon]

Yawgmoth's Bargain vs Gifts Ungiven number four; that's the most important argument as far as the MD should be considered. Gifts Ungiven number four should be in the deck, and despite Yawgmoth's Bargain being a non discard pile based win condition, 4BB is hard to cast.

[Webster]

I don't quit understand the context of your main points in regards to my last post (I'm very tired so that may be why).  I may need to read it tomorrow.

I'm saying that with a few changes your list is MD gifts and with some others it's TPS/r. The point is I don't see many cohesive mediums between each deck to where whatever you're using performs better than one extreme or the other. Draw 7's and merchant scrolls suggest different accompanying components (multiple ritual types vs gifts cards) which does not appear, to me at least, to yield a focused deck of 60 cards when both deck-shells are combined.

Yawgmoth's Bargain vs Gifts Ungiven number four; that's the most important argument as far as the MD should be considered. Gifts Ungiven number four should be in the deck, and despite Yawgmoth's Bargain being a non discard pile based win condition, 4BB is hard to cast.

I'd never cut bargain. It's been too good for me. It doesn't matter if it's six mana; the rituals are in there for a reason.


Web

[Nantuko]

Im sure that Id never cut the bargain,I prefer bargain to necro.

Anybody tech dark confidant??

[Fake0ut]

I think that Bob is more than likely too slow.  Granted I love the card, but I feel its kind of similar to my distaste for Necro in the deck.  You don't replace him with a card until next turn.  If the game lasts ANOTHER turn then he did his job and netted you a card for some amount of life and 1B, but for the same cost you could have just played night's whisper and probably lose the same amount of life.  His 2/1 body doesn't really do much as far as a clock either.  9-10 turns isn't so great.

Still, by all means, test him out.  He's working wonders in other decks in every format.  I'm just saying that you need to make sure that the game will last 2 more turns for him to be any better than night's whisper.

I too would not cut bargain.  In the type 1 tournament in NJ I just played in, I resolved bargain turn 2 twice with counter backup!  Needless to say, I simply won after that.  There has also been several casual games that I've played where Bargain is a much easier win around a card like leyline of the void.

[dexter]

bla bla bla your deck looks is a tps w. gifts etc bla bla bla

yeye whatever. i still have an opiniion. Bob doesnt belong in this deck. the core is still the same, fast combo win. and what does bob do there? yes it gives a better control matchup, but wait isnt the mathcup already good? why bother improving a good matchup w. dorks? nah, leave bob outta this, bobs place in t1 is in some deck that uses countertop + bob aka fish decks

[Nantuko]

I dont think the control matchup is too good,he counter our gifts and isnt too easy, and he do the pression,but its my oppinion

[Smmenen]

I don't quit understand the context of your main points in regards to my last post (I'm very tired so that may be why).  I may need to read it tomorrow.

I'm saying that with a few changes your list is MD gifts and with some others it's TPS/r.

What exactly IS TPS anymore?   

TPS, as I remember it and think of it, was the combo deck that was so popular in the Trinistax era that looked more or less like this:

Kenny Oberg:

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Necropotence
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Rebuild
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune

Lands (15):
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

It was a much slower combo deck than the combo decks that exist today.   These type of decks seem terribly outdated with the prevalence of Grim Tutors and the incorporation of Cabal Ritual into mainstream combo.   

[Webster]

What exactly IS TPS anymore?

It was a much slower combo deck than the combo decks that exist today.   These type of decks seem terribly outdated with the prevalence of Grim Tutors and the incorporation of Cabal Ritual into mainstream combo.

The decklist below is what TPS was like last year in Europe. It was quite popular. Some builds opted for red with gifts (including recoup, wheel of fortune, sb options) or without in which case more rituals or dark confidants were added. Despite how outdated or outclassed you, Stephen, may think/have thought this deck was at the time, it put up real results which is all that really matters.

Karlsruhe, June 3, 2006

4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Time Twister
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

1 Recoup
1 Wheel of Fortune

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
 

SB:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Engoneered Plague
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pyroclasm
1 Sundering Titan
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Tormod’s Crypt


Web

[Phele]

This was the latest "TPS" list I found played in Iserlohn, December 2006

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Time Walk
1 Recoup

Lands (14):
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Cranial Extraction
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Echoing Truth
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Massacre
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rebuild
1 Tinker
1 Tormod's Crypt

Christopher played Confidants instead of Merchant Scrolls, the rest is pretty similar to the latest Ritual Gifts lists. TPS was always adapted in Europe and also always competitive. Some people still relied on draw sevens but there have been builds around with nothing but draw in form of Confidants and the enchantements and Gifts for the save kill for a pretty long time.

[rare hunter]

After goldfishing a few games, I have decided I love the deck. I've always been a fan of Storm combo, and this deck is one of the better builds I've played. I have a question though, what do your normally Gifts for?

[Webster]

After goldfishing a few games, I have decided I love the deck. I've always been a fan of Storm combo, and this deck is one of the better builds I've played. I have a question though, what do your normally Gifts for?

There is no "normal" package because what you are gifting for is totally dependant on the gamestate, what's in your hand, what information you have on your opponent's hand, what's in your graveyard. I'd try to exand on this point further but it would take too long because there are so  many relevent combinations.


Web

[ashiXIII]

This was the latest "TPS" list I found played in Iserlohn, December 2006

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Time Walk
1 Recoup

Lands (14):
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Cranial Extraction
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Echoing Truth
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Massacre
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rebuild
1 Tinker
1 Tormod's Crypt

Christopher played Confidants instead of Merchant Scrolls, the rest is pretty similar to the latest Ritual Gifts lists. TPS was always adapted in Europe and also always competitive. Some people still relied on draw sevens but there have been builds around with nothing but draw in form of Confidants and the enchantements and Gifts for the save kill for a pretty long time.

Which brings up the question "Why is this deck running a full set of Scrolls?" It's not MDG, and thus it's not nearly as reliant on Ancestral. It also doesn't run the same counter suite that MDG does, instead opting for a faster win. If it wants to get Gifts, why not just run the full set of them? I think 4 Scrolls in this deck may be too many, instead opting to run more powerful cards. (IE: Timetwister, Tinker/Jar, etc.)

[Liam-K]

Merchant Scroll is good in the deck because barring a bizzare draw that asks you to try to put an enchantment into play, the deck MUST resolve a gifts in order to do pretty much anything.  On this note I agree that the 4th scroll should be the 4th gifts (and is in my build), as if you're casting scroll->ancestral you might want to look closer, scroll->gifts or scroll -> force to protect a gifts is often a better play.  Scroll is often reused out of the bin for mystical, too.

Twister is bad because the deck is based on the yard.  In fact I expect you'll find draw7s in general to be terrible... go draw a bunch of opening hands in MWS with, say, 2 mana on the table (since you spent 3 to cast your draw7) and see how many of then win, especially through FoW.  You're going to find yourself passing the turn a lot.

[acidfreak]

If you play yawgmoth's will and then a gifts out of the graveyard, are the two cards from gifts that don't go into your hand removed?

This should have been in the Rules Forum, but yes they are removed.
-Godder

[sean1i0]

Well, it's been a long time since I've been able to play magic and still it's just about 1 night a week, but I've been able to keep up to an extent with it via tmd.  This deck seems really impressive to me and as such I've been playtesting it some and reading up on it; I've checked over this thread in the hopes of finding this, but haven't been able to yet, so if this has been already been answered, then I apologize for being redundant, but how does this deck do against ichorid?

[meadbert]

The Manaless Ichorid matchup is bad.  This is based on testing versus my list which runs four Leyline of the Void.

Problems are:
1:  Duress is much worse than Misdirection or Drain versus Ichorid.
2:  No random Tinker->DSC wins.
3: No Graveyard hate in the board.
4: Highly reliant on own graveyard.

Advantage:
1:  Faster goldfish when Ichorid draws no disruption.

[desolutionist]

My team has worked on a Ritual Gifts variant a little while ago but we don't seem to be doing much with it lately.  I don't see any harm in posting it for you guys because it is actually interesting and worth testing/developing.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Sins of the Past
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkly's Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Duress
2 Tendrils of Agony

With Sins in hand, you can Gifts for Crit, Drit, Lotus, Desire to usually guarantee a Desire for 6-7ish to flip over another Sins and a Gifts (which is GG right there)

[Scott_Limoges]

I'd just like to comment on the last two posts.

The last decklist is interesting and creative in pushing the envelope to innovate.  Extended has shown us Sins of the Past (SOTP) has strong synergy with Minds Desire.  I applaud you.  However, this version appears less ferior in concept.  You've essentially removed disruption by placing a conditional engine that is doesn't garentee a win and is extremely mana intensive.  The standard Ritual Gifts version just wins once gifts resolves so why add more conditional, mana intensive "threats" and remove disruption?

Regarding the ichorid match, my results differ significantly in testing and tournament play.  I played against strong ichorid players like Jim Gaffney, Bob Yu, and others and I actually see the ratio ichord wins Slightly over half.  Now this is scary for ichorid because ichorid relies on its game 1 win percentage.  Game 2 Ritual Gifts has pithing needle and bounce.  If Ritual Gifts is on the play duress is solid because ichorid Needs two disruption attacks to beat Ritual Gifts.  Taking chalice or unmask will usually win the game and if they don't have these, Ritual Gifts has probably won anyways. 

Meadbert - what type of player has been playing Ritual Gifts?  Pithing Needle is in the board against ichorid.  It doesn't appear you know Ritual Gifts very well.

[desolutionist]

The standard Ritual Gifts version just wins once gifts resolves

You're resolving Gifts *sooner* with the Sins engine because it requires less resources.

so why add more conditional, mana intensive "threats"

How are they any more conditional and/or any more mana intensive than a Recoup?

and remove disruption?

Because you don't need any more disruption than the 4 Force of Wills and singleton Duress.

[diopter]

The standard Ritual Gifts version just wins once gifts resolves

You're resolving Gifts *sooner* with the Sins engine because it requires less resources.

so why add more conditional, mana intensive "threats"

How are they any more conditional and/or any more mana intensive than a Recoup?

and remove disruption?

Because you don't need any more disruption than the 4 Force of Wills and singleton Duress.

- Standard Gifts builds run 1 Recoup. This is dead unless you resolve Gifts.
- You are running 4 Sins of the Past. These are dead unless you resolve Gifts.

You are running 3 more dead cards than Ritual Gifts. From my experience with Ritual Gifts, you really need to make every card count, because you are doing things like playing Dark Ritual -> Gifts on your second turn, with 2/3 mana sources on the board, hopefully with Duress or Force backup. You need a lot of cards to make Ritual Gifts work.

Additionally, Sins vs. Recoup in conjunction with Gifts, there is no question, Recoup wins. If you really want to go the direction you're going, I would suggest -4 Sins +4 Recoup. A Gifts for Demonic Tutor, YawGmoth's Will, and two fast mana sources with Recoup in hand will win pretty much every time, whereas Gifting for the lethal Desire is very risky.

[LotusHead]

- Standard Gifts builds run 1 Recoup. This is dead unless you resolve Gifts.
- You are running 4 Sins of the Past. These are dead unless you resolve Gifts.

You are running 3 more dead cards than Ritual Gifts. From my experience with Ritual Gifts, you really need to make every card count, because you are doing things like playing Dark Ritual -> Gifts on your second turn, with 2/3 mana sources on the board, hopefully with Duress or Force backup. You need a lot of cards to make Ritual Gifts work.

Additionally, Sins vs. Recoup in conjunction with Gifts, there is no question, Recoup wins. If you really want to go the direction you're going, I would suggest -4 Sins +4 Recoup. A Gifts for Demonic Tutor, YawGmoth's Will, and two fast mana sources with Recoup in hand will win pretty much every time, whereas Gifting for the lethal Desire is very risky.

I am a relatively veteran of Vintage, and I don't play gifts unles playtesting it versus teammates.

Some of your arguements seem flawed, even considering the (ridiculous) nature of Sins of the Past as a direction for Gifts.decs (yes, I am rejecting Sins out of hand, but that is only because I play Drains/Non-Storm and Shops.).

Recouping, hardcastedly, a Time Walk is Huge in T1.
Even recopuing Demonic Tutor is pretty solid.

Flashing Back a recope for Will or Tinker or Tutor is, well, buisiness as usual, but Recoup never seems dead to me, from across the table.

Granted, now that I re-read your post, I realize that you were citing Recope as "dead" as opposed to 4 Sins that are "dead", but I thought Grim Tutor was weak (until I didn't get a mainphase game 1 last tourney. PWNED!)

Would Boseiju or some such tech make Sins.Gifts more viable?

[ashiXIII]

- Standard Gifts builds run 1 Recoup. This is dead unless you resolve Gifts.
- You are running 4 Sins of the Past. These are dead unless you resolve Gifts.

You are running 3 more dead cards than Ritual Gifts. From my experience with Ritual Gifts, you really need to make every card count, because you are doing things like playing Dark Ritual -> Gifts on your second turn, with 2/3 mana sources on the board, hopefully with Duress or Force backup. You need a lot of cards to make Ritual Gifts work.

Additionally, Sins vs. Recoup in conjunction with Gifts, there is no question, Recoup wins. If you really want to go the direction you're going, I would suggest -4 Sins +4 Recoup. A Gifts for Demonic Tutor, YawGmoth's Will, and two fast mana sources with Recoup in hand will win pretty much every time, whereas Gifting for the lethal Desire is very risky.

I am a relatively veteran of Vintage, and I don't play gifts unles playtesting it versus Team Reflection is better than teammates.

Some of your arguements seem flawed, even considering the (ridiculous) nature of Sins of the Past as a direction for Gifts.decs (yes, I am rejecting Sins out of hand, but that is only because I play Drains/Non-Storm and Shops.).

Recouping, hardcastedly, a Time Walk is Huge in T1.
Even recopuing Demonic Tutor is pretty solid.

Flashing Back a recope for Will or Tinker or Tutor is, well, buisiness as usual, but Recoup never seems dead to me, from across the table.

Granted, now that I re-read your post, I realize that you were citing Recope as "dead" as opposed to 4 Sins that are "dead", but I thought Grim Tutor was weak (until I didn't get a mainphase game 1 last tourney. PWNED!)

Would Boseiju or some such tech make Sins.Gifts more viable?

As sad as it is, I think Boseiju is way too slow in modern Vintage.

[Vegeta2711]

Because you don't need any more disruption than the 4 Force of Wills and singleton Duress.

Out of curiosity, why not just play Long in that case then?