[Deck] Copyright Theft

[netherspirit]

First of all, let me make two things clear:

1) Yes, I know the name sucks.
2) By posting this deck I am not saying it's the best Gifts build available; I have posted it only with the hope of making it better than it is at the moment.

Right, now that that's out of the way, let me begin!

While browsing the vintage forums on MTGS I noticed a deck called 7Long; now, while the actual deck itself wasn't brilliant, I loved the idea behind it. It worked by hitting and opponent with Plagiarize and then playing a draw 7, leaving them at an enormous disadvantage.

After a few days of testing the original I came to some conclusions:
1) The "combo" itself is brutal if pulled off.
2) Mana Drain is essential to the deck.
3) The deck requires a lot of tutor power but not so much draw as the "combo" is usually enough to win.
4) You need to disrupt your opponent as much as possible in order to get off the ground.

So, with those few things in mind I decided a Gifts build might be worth trying as it gets around all those problems. I built a deck and have been tweaking it since; here it is:

Mana Base
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp

Draw/Tutor
3 Plagiarize
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
1 Frantic Search
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Merchant Scroll

Disruption
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Duress

Bounce
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild

The Kill
2 Tendrils of Agony

Other
1 Time Walk

That's the deck! I don't think I need to explain any card choices as they are all pretty commonly used cards and in my opinion are self explanatory.

There are some changes I've been considering, though. I may replace the Duresses with Misdirections and I've been thinking about adding green to the deck for Regrowth, Crop Rotation and Channel; I'm not sure whether it'd be a good idea though.

I took DSC out of here after a little bit of testing because I never actually used him; however, I'm now finding there are times where it would be nice to just win randomly with him.

Finally, would Yawgmoth's Will be worth using? I haven't tried it beings there's rarely a moment after I drop my "combo" that I have a decent sized graveyard; it might be worth adding as an alternative route though.

I'm short on time so I shall have to leave it there for now. Comments, opinions and criticism would all be very much appreciated! If there is anything I haven't covered that you would like to know, please just say so and I will happily answer you.

Lastly, I don't want anyone asking anything like "Why is this better than current Gifts builds?" because I'm not saying it is; I've posted this deck in order to hopefully improve it, not replace all other Gifts decks.

Thanks in advance guys!

  netherspirit

[Anusien]

When are you ever going to have 7 mana available to cast Draw 7 + Plagarize.  I mean, Plagarize is at its best when the opponent is drawing lots of spells, so either racing it down before they cast Ancestral (why not Misdirection) and casting a Draw 7.  Personally wouldn't you rather just cast the Draw 7 and have 4 mana open afterwards to cast all kinds of nasty spells?

Also, I think you'll find Frantic Search is pretty bad here since it can only interact well with Tolarian Academy

[Vegeta2711]

Plagiarize + Draw-7 is a primary example of overkill and falls under "The Danger of Cool Plays" methodology. You should've asked yourself a question before posting this.

Why would I need a card that is only good when I resolve it; plus a Draw-7? Why am I not just winning when the Draw-7 itself resolves?

[Zarathustra]

I'm gonna be blunt...  I'm sorry but, this deck is a long ways off from being playable.

Honestly, you have very few good Gifts piles with this deck.  How can you conceivably cut two of the biggest Gift pile cards: Yawgmoth's Will and Recoup.  Without these, I see very few ways of casting Gifts and actually winning on the spot.

What you have here is a list full of dead cards, that can possibly form to make a "cute combo", that will not win most of the time.

Also, I have no idea how half the choices are, what you would call "self-explanatory". 

Why would you play 3 Plagiarize over YWill, Recoup, and a 3rd Gifts?

Why would you play Draw-7's over an extra land or two?  This deck has 13 lands and I can assure you, that is not enough.  In my testing, 14 is necessary, even 15 is good.

Wouldn't it be better to replace a Draw-7 with a less symmetrical spell, such as Fact or Fiction, Skeletal Scrying, or even a 4th Gifts?

Without DSC, is Tinker really that good, with only one target?  Would those two slots serve better as another win condition and another tutor?: Empty the Warrens and a 4th Merchant Scroll.

These are the types of questions I have.  I would like to know what your thoughts are on these questions.

-DShell

[OfficeShredder]

The first thing that comes to mind is why is this a gifts build?  I can't read nine cards down a decklist without running into gifts ungiven nowadays.  The card serves no purpose in this deck, unless you want to get FOW, duress, merchant scroll and brainstorm or some other controllish type pile, and then you're kind of wasting four mana

[Zarathustra]

The first thing that comes to mind is why is this a gifts build?  I can't read nine cards down a decklist without running into gifts ungiven nowadays.  The card serves no purpose in this deck, unless you want to get FOW, duress, merchant scroll and brainstorm or some other controllish type pile, and then you're kind of wasting four mana

Well, with a card so format defining as Gifts is, it gets played.  Besides, a lopsided 3U Demonic Tutor is really, really good.

However, I do understand what you mean.  This deck it has to go one of two ways.  Keep the Draw-7's and play something else, although, I have no idea what you would play.  GrimLong or PitchLong comes to mind.  Or change the list and play Gifts.  Currently, this is not and should not be a Gifts deck, unless changes are made.

-DShell

[silvernail]

Gifts wins by casting gifts and getting cards that result in a wining situation regardless of what choice your opponent makes.

This pile of cards runs draw 7s and Plagarize in place of the cards gifts uses to win.

This looks like an attempt at merging sometimes seen tendrils decks that use draw 7s , with a gifts shell. Why is a hybrid like this needed? What advantage does it have over the original decks? How well does it win vs other decks ?

I feel this deck fails because Yawgmoth's Will > Plagarize + draw 7. It costs only 2B compared to 3U + (3 - 5), and nets you a "hand" of cards while leaving you mana to actually play those cards.

I think Plagarize is too expensive to bother with, but maybe that's just me.

[netherspirit]

So much feedback already!

I was expecting a lot harsher than this actually.

When are you ever going to have 7 mana available to cast Draw 7 + Plagarize.

After Mana Drain-ing a spell.

Also, I think you'll find Frantic Search is pretty bad here since it can only interact well with Tolarian Academy

That's what I expected originally, but it's actually proved to be one of the best cards in the deck and it would take something very special to replace it.

Plagiarize + Draw-7 is a primary example of overkill and falls under "The Danger of Cool Plays" methodology. You should've asked yourself a question before posting this.

Why would I need a card that is only good when I resolve it; plus a Draw-7? Why am I not just winning when the Draw-7 itself resolves?

The nice thing I've found with Plagiarize and Draw 7s so far, though, is that they work awesomely on there own anyway; so casting them separately is often very powerful as well.

Why would you play 3 Plagiarize over YWill, Recoup, and a 3rd Gifts?

Yawg's Will is something I want to include in here, it's simply a matter of finding the space.

Recoup just does nothing for the deck.

A third Gifts isn't necessary given all the tutor power I'm packing.

Wouldn't it be better to replace a Draw-7 with a less symmetrical spell, such as Fact or Fiction, Skeletal Scrying, or even a 4th Gifts?

Fact or Fiction is definitely something I'd like to try, but it's so mana hungry and as the deck already wants quite a lot I don't want to make it too much harder to drop spells.

Without DSC, is Tinker really that good, with only one target?  Would those two slots serve better as another win condition and another tutor?: Empty the Warrens and a 4th Merchant Scroll.

I'd be more than happy to include DSC in here. It's simply a matter of finding space for it. But so far, yes Tinker has been very good as it's essentially a 3 mana Draw 7.

The first thing that comes to mind is why is this a gifts build?

I'm using Gifts because of the sheer power of the card as a tutor. Maybe Intuition would be better though?

I think Plagarize is too expensive to bother with, but maybe that's just me.

Ah, the joys of Mana Drain. Plus I usually find I have enough mana to play it anyway.

Thanks for the replies guys! It helps so much! Oh, and Zarathustra, I've found the amount of lands to nearly always be fine, maybe I could add one more though.

[Zarathustra]

When are you ever going to have 7 mana available to cast Draw 7 + Plagarize.

After Mana Drain-ing a spell.

You don't need a "cute combo" in order to win after Mana Draining.  It's called Giftsing for Will, Recoup, Lotus, X...  That's good game right there.

Also, I think you'll find Frantic Search is pretty bad here since it can only interact well with Tolarian Academy

That's what I expected originally, but it's actually proved to be one of the best cards in the deck and it would take something very special to replace it.

In the absence of Academy, I don't see how Frantic Search can be "one of the best cards in the deck...", honestly, Gifts is insane and actually puts you in the position to win, Search gives you two random cards.

Plagiarize + Draw-7 is a primary example of overkill and falls under "The Danger of Cool Plays" methodology. You should've asked yourself a question before posting this.

Why would I need a card that is only good when I resolve it; plus a Draw-7? Why am I not just winning when the Draw-7 itself resolves?

The nice thing I've found with Plagiarize and Draw 7s so far, though, is that they work awesomely on there own anyway; so casting them separately is often very powerful as well.

There are a few cards I'd rather have over this, like another Gifts or even YWill that will actually win me the game.  I don't see what purpose this serves on it's own.  Plagiarize is cute, but on it's own, I fail to see how it's doing anything worthwhile.  The Draw-7's seem absolutely terrible.  Since this deck doesn't even run Rituals(of any sort), I don't see how a Twister, Windfall, or even Time Spiral is gonna end the game for you.

author=Zarathustra link=topic=32024.msg460924#msg460924 date=1170694140]
Why would you play 3 Plagiarize over YWill, Recoup, and a 3rd Gifts?

Yawg's Will is something I want to include in here, it's simply a matter of finding the space.

Recoup just does nothing for the deck.

A third Gifts isn't necessary given all the tutor power I'm packing.

It's statements like these that make me wonder why you're attempting a Gifts build.  I don't want to sound rude, but it seems as though you lack a fundamental understanding of the Gifts archetype.  Yawgmoth's Will is so integral to the deck, that you find room for it.  No matter what.  In the current build, there are many cards that you can remove for YWill.

I have no idea how you can say Recoup does nothing for the deck.  You do realize the function of the following Gifts pile:  Recoup, Yawgmoth's Will, Black Lotus, Lion's Eye Diamond?  This pile allows you to win now, no matter what cards they give you.  This alone shows the power of Recoup.  I would say Recoup is as integral to this deck as YWill is.

If you're making a Gifts deck, you want Gifts.  Since the idea of Gifts is to basically cast a lopsided DOUBLE Demonic Tutor on their END STEP.  This allows you to win the next turn.  Even a combination of Mox, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Tolarian Academy, before a Yawgmoth's Will turn is huge and will end the game.

Wouldn't it be better to replace a Draw-7 with a less symmetrical spell, such as Fact or Fiction, Skeletal Scrying, or even a 4th Gifts?

Fact or Fiction is definitely something I'd like to try, but it's so mana hungry and as the deck already wants quite a lot I don't want to make it too much harder to drop spells.

Maybe you could give us some idea of what you play against.  Because, I have no idea how this deck is any good.  In it's current form, it seems very lacking.  Maybe even some idea of what you have played against.

-DShell

[netherspirit]

If you're making a Gifts deck, you want Gifts.

I'm not making a Gifts deck though; if I were  I'd have gone for a typical build. I'm merely using Gifts itself as it is such a powerful tutor.

[Vegeta2711]

I can't ever imagine casting Plagiarize and having it be better than just resolving Gifts or Fact or Fiction. There's simply no way it's "good on it's own" unless your playing with idiots. Even when casting it in response to Ancestral, you may as well just use Mis-D instead.

[netherspirit]

I can't ever imagine casting Plagiarize and having it be better than just resolving Gifts or Fact or Fiction. There's simply no way it's "good on it's own" unless your playing with idiots. Even when casting it in response to Ancestral, you may as well just use Mis-D instead.

Hitting things such as Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge with it is amazing. I think I'm going to cut Duress for MisD anyway, though.

[Hydra]

I can't ever imagine casting Plagiarize and having it be better than just resolving Gifts or Fact or Fiction. There's simply no way it's "good on it's own" unless your playing with idiots. Even when casting it in response to Ancestral, you may as well just use Mis-D instead.

Hitting things such as Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge with it is amazing. I think I'm going to cut Duress for MisD anyway, though.

If you're hitting TFK or Brainstorm with it either A. your opponent is an idiot or B. It's on your turn and you just cast a Concentrate that's dependent on your opponent playing a draw spell first.  Sure there's a slim chance you just screwed your opponent, but you also probably just cut yourself off Drain mana.  Not to mention the fact that if you have 4 mana to waste on your turn, why haven't you just won the game instead.

This deck suffers the same problem that most of the decks in this foum suffer from, and that's trying to be "cool".  "Cool" loses in Vintage, perhaps more so than in other formats because things like removal don't matter in this format.  Whenever you make a deck you gotta look at decks that already exist and ask yourself "what does my deck do better than all of those decks" and "is that thing good enough to beat top decks?"  For this deck it's "play more draw 7s than the other guy" and draw 7s just don't win in Vintage unless you're comboing out that turn, which this deck isn't set up to do.

[Zarathustra]

I'm not making a Gifts deck though; if I were  I'd have gone for a typical build. I'm merely using Gifts itself as it is such a powerful tutor.

The problem is, you have no engine in this deck.  Your deck is clogged with useless cards that make a cute combo.  Since this was posted in Vintage Improvement, I would have thought you wanted improvements to be made.

Hitting things such as Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge with it is amazing. I think I'm going to cut Duress for MisD anyway, though.

Rather than waiting for the opponent to cast something, you can Gifts and win.  That's amazing, too.

-DShell

[meadbert]

I can't ever imagine casting Plagiarize and having it be better than just resolving Gifts or Fact or Fiction. There's simply no way it's "good on it's own" unless your playing with idiots. Even when casting it in response to Ancestral, you may as well just use Mis-D instead.

Hitting things such as Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge with it is amazing. I think I'm going to cut Duress for MisD anyway, though.

If you're hitting TFK or Brainstorm with it either A. your opponent is an idiot or B. It's on your turn and you just cast a Concentrate that's dependent on your opponent playing a draw spell first.  Sure there's a slim chance you just screwed your opponent, but you also probably just cut yourself off Drain mana.  Not to mention the fact that if you have 4 mana to waste on your turn, why haven't you just won the game instead.

First of all 4 mana does not just win you the game.

Plagiarizing in response to Brainstorm or Thirst for Knowledge is way better than Concentrate.  Yes you draw 3 more cards but your opponent loses 3 cards.  That is a size for one trade giving you +5 card advantage making Plagiarize in response to Thirst/Brainstorm more powerful than 2 Concentrates even if the mana for second was free.  In fact it can be as much as a 6 card swing if your opponent played Thirst and would have drawn into an artifact but had none in his hand.  You may have just taken yourself off Drain mana but you also just butchered your opponent's hand while drawing three cards.  There is a good chance you are holding Force and even if you are not holding it your opponent is basically in top deck mode.  Althought Plagiaize has not shown up in American top 8s it has shown up in some Top 8s in Spain.  It is not a terrible card and is particularly strong in the control mirror.

Even versus decks with no Draw you have the option of Plagiarizing on their upkeep which is a 2 for 1 trade.  It takes you off Drain mana but if they are in top deck mode (which most decks that pack no draw would be by the time you have 4 mana up) then having no Drain Mana up is irrelevant as they will not draw a spell to play.

[Zarathustra]

First of all 4 mana does not win you the game

We mean a 4 mana SPELL.  And yes, it can.  It starts with G- and ends with ifts Ungiven.  Plagiarize can not end the game on it's own.

Plagiarizing in response to Brainstorm or Thirst for Knowledge is way better than Concentrate.  Yes you draw 3 more cards but your opponent loses 3 cards.  That is a size for one trade giving you +5 card advantage making Plagiarize in response to Thirst/Brainstorm more powerful than 2 Concentrates even if the mana for second was free.  In fact it can be as much as a 6 card swing if your opponent played Thirst and would have drawn into an artifact but had none in his hand.  You may have just taken yourself off Drain mana but you also just butchered your opponent's hand while drawing three cards.  There is a good chance you are holding Force and even if you are not holding it your opponent is basically in top deck mode.  Althought Plagiaize has not shown up in American top 8s it has shown up in some Top 8s in Spain.  It is not a terrible card and is particularly strong in the control mirror.

Even versus decks with no Draw you have the option of Plagiarizing on their upkeep which is a 2 for 1 trade.  It takes you off Drain mana but if they are in top deck mode (which most decks that pack no draw would be by the time you have 4 mana up) then having no Drain Mana up is irrelevant as they will not draw a spell to play.

Except, Concentrate isn't playable in Vintage.  You want a good comparison?  Gifts Ungiven IS essentially an Instant Double Demonic Tutor, for 3U. 

Plagiarize is terrible and should not be played in Vintage.  Gifts costs the same and tends to end the game.  I don't understand why this is so hard to see.

-DShell

[meadbert]

Plagiarize is not as powerful as Gifts.  It is nowhere near as powerful as Yawgmoth's Will.  It is far more powerful than Concentrate.

Although Gifts Ungiven is better than Plagiarize because of its versatitily to get what you want there are situations where I would rather have Plagiarize in my hand such as when Thirst for Knowledge or Brainstorm is on the stack.

Although Gifts Ungiven seals the deal once you are already ahead on card advantage or mana development  it hardly wins a game on its own.  It you go turn 1 Island, Mana Vault you cannot as a rule just win on turn 2 by playing Gifts Ungiven.

In the same situation Plagiarizing in response to Brainstorm or Thirst is more game breaking because it is so powerful in terms of card advantage.

[Zarathustra]

Plagiarize is not as powerful as Gifts.  It is nowhere near as powerful as Yawgmoth's Will.  It is far more powerful than Concentrate.

I completely agree.  Which, is why I'm unsure we're still discussing this.

Although Gifts Ungiven is better than Plagiarize because of its versatitily to get what you want there are situations where I would rather have Plagiarize in my hand such as when Thirst for Knowledge or Brainstorm is on the stack.

Conditional cards are bad... mmm'kay

Although Gifts Ungiven seals the deal once you are already ahead on card advantage or mana development  it hardly wins a game on its own.  It you go turn 1 Island, Mana Vault you cannot as a rule just win on turn 2 by playing Gifts Ungiven.

Well, in this case, Plagiarize isn't gonna do anything anyway.  But, at least the Gifts deck has it's engine going by turn 2.  Plagiarize can't do the same.

In the same situation Plagiarizing in response to Brainstorm or Thirst is more game breaking because it is so powerful in terms of card advantage.

Again, conditional.  This goes back to your first statement, which I have bolded.

I find this arguement for Plagiarize rather foolish, especially when comparing it to an engine like Gifts Ungiven.  I don't honestly see how you can defend a card that is so lackluster.

-DShell

[meadbert]

Plagiarize is not as powerful as Gifts.  It is nowhere near as powerful as Yawgmoth's Will.  It is far more powerful than Concentrate.

I completely agree.  Which, is why I'm unsure we're still discussing this.

I think we agree.