Post PC U/B AggroControl

[Draven]

I know there is an incredibly long thread regarding Extirpate, however, I wanted to re-build an old deck and get opinons. I will talk about specific card choices after the list.

Creatures
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Withered Wretch
3 Dark Confidant

Disruption
4 Duress
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Stifle
3 Extirpate
1 Chain of Vapor

Draw/Restricted Stuff
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Time Walk
1 Necropotence

Lands/Mana Sources
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Island
8 Swamp
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual


Creatures:

Phyrexian Negator: Although this isn't a suicide build, No other creature available puts the same kind of pressure on an opponant like an early Negator. His drawback only comes into play against fish, which this deck is best used against control/combo decks. If you have a fish heavy meta, then I wouldn't run Negator's.

Withered Wretch: Withered Wretch is great for disruption and a 2/2 body. I find it at times to be annoying to leave mana open to activate his ability, however, eot ripping graveyards apart is impressive. Again, not usefull aginst fish.

Dark Confidant Incredible card drawing, at very little cost. Average cc of this deck is .83, very manageable with a Confidant. Oh yeah, he is busted as hell too...

Disruption
Duress: Shouldn't need too much explaination. It is good early to slow opponant down, it is good late to put a chink in their plan.

Chalice of the Void: This card is really a hard card for this deck to use, becasue it can really only set it to zero. Too much of the deck is at a 1 or 2 cc. One thing I have used the Chalices for is sac'ing to the Negator. Note, on the draw (game 2 or 3) I will side out the Chalices for Rods. Null Rods may be a better main deck option with Chalice's in the side.

Stifle: Stifle fits in to the mana denial stratagy of the deck hitting fetch lands. It has also been used to combat pesky storm and even used once or twice to stifle the damage trigger on the Negator.

Extirpate: I am really looking forward to running this card. With the Duress, Wasteland and Stifle; Extirpate has so much potential. Obviously, there is a 6 page thread on this card, so I am not going to drool and ga-ga on what the card could do. Part of this deck is to put it to test.

Chain of Vapor: Chain is used to get rid of DSC. I am not sure if one is enough. Not alot of room otherwise.

Draw/Restricted Stuff
Ancestral Recall, Demonic Tutor, Time Walk, Yawgmoth's Will: So self explainitory...

Skeletal Scrying: I run this in place of the 4th Dark Confidant to get a much need burst of cards.

Necropotence: This is another card that I feel doesn't pull its weight. Once this deck casts Necropotence, it essentially goes "all in." There is no life gain and the only way to get rid of the skull is through the Negator. Not a good option. THis is definatly a card I feel can be cut. I think another draw spell or possibly tutor (Demonic Consultation) would fit nicely in it's place.

Lands/Mana Sources
Wastelands/StripMine: No explaination needed

Polluted Deltas: Need to get the much need blue mana sources when those are needed.

Underground Sea: These are there to help with the hands of Fetch, Duress, Stifle where you want to have black and blue mana available right away.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth: Suddenly, all those un-used Wastelands and fetchlands are "swamps." I am only running one due to the Ledgendary status of the card.

Basic Lands: Basics are always good.

Artifact Mana: These are always great first turn, prior to the Chalice's, however, there arn't too many to compete with the Chalices.

Dark Ritual: These make for some many insane first turn plays. Obviously, this is the only card that makes the architype fast enough to compete.

Once idea I had was to add one Tendrils of Agony/Death Wish in order to pull off a late game Tendrils once my graveyard is filled up with juicy rituals etc. However, it will be a dead draw on most other occasions.

I am not going to post "results" from testing, becasue they tend to be inaacurate at best. However, I will say, the decks does quite well against Tendril decks, and it sucks against aggro deck (shocking, I know.)

[Harlequin]

I'm not sure what happened to the begining of my post... but I'll re-create it.


Basically, I think you have too many mana sources.   I would cut 2 basics, and 1 wasteland.  That brings you back down to 21 + 4 dark rits ... which is about right for a fish style deck.  so that 3 slots.

Secondly, I would trade out -4 Chalice for +3 Null rod.  They effectively do the same thing (in a deck with 1 and 2 drops), but in less space.  Also null rod hits moxen that were played when you loose the coin toss.


I would say the following could be cut for consistancy reasons:
-1 Necropotence
-1 Skeletal scrying
-1 Withered Wretch
[open slots 7]

Now how do would I fill those last slots...

+1 Confidant

theres really no matchup where you don't want this guy early and often.  With Scrying and Potence out of the picture I would certainly go with 4 here.

+1 Echoing Truth

Empty the warrens can be dangerous.  This gives you an out against that (its probably worth it to drop the chain of vapor in favor of 2 e.truths).

+3 Extract
+2 Planar Void

If you do that you have: 
Extripate + Extract attack both 4-of engins and singleton/restricted cards.
Extripate/Wretch + Planarvoid attacking the graveyard both focused and "en mass." 
Wasteland/Stifle + Duress for fueling your Extripates

[Draven]

I would say the following could be cut for consistancy reasons:
-1 Necropotence
-1 Skeletal scrying
-1 Withered Wretch
[open slots 7]

I am not seeing the other 4 open slots? Did I miss soemthing? I do like the idea of Extracts though.

[wethepeople]

I just built a deck somewhat similar to this for a friend of mine who is getting into Vintage, though, rather than using Negators and Wretches, it uses Trinket Mages and a smaller toolbelt.

One suggestion, however, is try running Echoing Truth, rather than Chain of Vapor. E-truth bounces multiple creatures, as well as all the Goblin tokens you are likely to face (Empty the Warrens). In addition, your opponent will not hesitate to sacrifice a land and copy CoV to return your Negator.

Also, your curve looks rather heavy on one, and less on two, so, a 2cc Bounce spell seems like the best selection.

Have you tried Mishra's Factories? They don't look bad at all in here.

[Nydaeli]

You might want to look into Dimir Cutpurse as an additional card advantage engine.  It's amazing if it connects, which it should pretty often if you're not in a janky aggro meta.

[bebe]

I do not see withered wretch and extirpate and planar void working together well. Yes, they all attack the graveyard but if you use extirpate just use a an extra dark confidant main and three null rods main. I would add a stifle and extracts for the chalices and two echoing truth for the skeletal scrying and chain of vapor.

[BC]

Why not include a combo finish for this?  You have plenty of card draw and mana accel.  If you added 1 Tendrils and maybe a few more artifact mana sources, you could probably combo out pretty often.

[zack]

I'm not sure what you would cut for it, but have you considered Nether Void?  If you get a slight advantage and then drop the void it's basically all over.

[Harlequin]

I would say the following could be cut for consistancy reasons:
-1 Necropotence
-1 Skeletal scrying
-1 Withered Wretch
[open slots 7]

I am not seeing the other 4 open slots? Did I miss soemthing? I do like the idea of Extracts though.

For some reason my post got cut off.  I must have somehow deleted it -_-

See above: I fixed my post so it makes more senese.

[Harlequin]

I do not see withered wretch and extirpate and planar void working together well. Yes, they all attack the graveyard but if you use extirpate just use a an extra dark confidant main and three null rods main. I would add a stifle and extracts for the chalices and two echoing truth for the skeletal scrying and chain of vapor.

As I've said before, Extripate is for attacking the engine.  It works fine under planarvoid because planar void is triggered (so the card is in the graveyard for a second) unlike its leyline counterpart (which is a replacement).

Roll of Extripate: Hit 4-ofs, Brainstorm, Thirst, Drain, Force of Will... Those are the best targets.  IF you think you can get away with it, hitting fetchlands or Duel lands and cut off access to offcolor mana.

Roll of Planar Void:  You can't extripate everything.  Planar Void also takes the mana stress off Wretch. 

Roll of Wretch: Wretch is the final leg of the tripod.  Without Planar Void, he pin-point's restricted cards in the yard that you wouldn't want to waste an extriapte on.  And with Planar Void in play, he is a janitor who cleans out all those cards that made it.  Also with planar void in play, he can trump your opponent's ability to have instant effect responses to the void trigger on the stack (such as necromancy or welder).  Also Wretch is a win condition.  Lastly, Wretch means your opponent cannot just bounce the planar void and then do insane things. 

Roll of Extract:  Extract and Wretch have similar rolls.  They clear out dangerous On-ofs and restricted cards.  Wretch hits the yard, and Extract hunts within the deck. 

Why care so much about the yard?  Every deck uses the yard in some degree.  Spanning from Graveyard.dec like Ichorid, Dragon, or reanimator - to "not alot, but very important" like Slaver, Gifts, Crucible/strip or Rit combo - to "minor importance" such as powering a 4/4 beater for 2 mana or feeding a lavamancer.

-----------------------------
Another thing I would highly consider is running Shadow of Doubt over Stifle.  Both serve the roll of attacking fetchlands, but additionally Shadow of doubt is amazing agianst Drain Decks and rit combo.  The drawback ofcourse is keeping up 2 mana as opposed to 1.  So in the longterm it may be worse than stifle, but it is certainly worth testing.

--------- About the Board--

- 5 "auto includes" -
1 Rod
1 Extripate

3 Energy Flux

- 10 fish cards-

3 Circu Dimir Lobotomist
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator / Dimir cutpurse
2 Darkblast
2 Psychatog / Nantuko Shade

===================

I played U/B fish when Rav had just been released.  I played a Circu on the main and I found him to be INSANE against fish.  Firstly he is a 2/3 so he can make quick work of any 2/1 or 2/2 that they attack with.  Secondly he punishes consistancy, wich is what fish strives to achieve. 

I also really like Tog in U/B fish vrs fish.  His manaless pumping makes him great in combat.  Aslo he thins out your yard to help starve out Grunts quicker.  Shade in this slot is do-able, but with a 2/1 body you may find he over-kills creatures too much just to stay alive, and he ties up resources in the process.

Lastly, In the board, I think Shadowmages are the right choice over cutpurse.  Cutpurse is a 2/2 and is very blockable.  Shadowmage is a 1/3 and has fear.  The discard against fish is often not important because fish doesn't really try to keep handsize anyway.  For the most part, the only creatures in fish that can block this guy are confidant (big chump) and Curpurse. 

[Draven]

Hey again everyone...

I just wanted to quick post, I ran a similar deck to this in a tournament over the weekend, none of the PC stuff obviously (not legal until tomorrow,) and no Ncropotence. I ran an extra Stifle, Dark Confidant, Tendrils, Echoing Truth and Null Rods instead of Chalices.

The deck did terrible. Going on 2-3 on the day.

Round 1, I played an almost identical mirror with less diruption but more counter. Mirror matches always suck and this one was no different. I lost this one 1-2.

Round 2, I played very straight up gifts. Game 1, I got him down to 3, he stabalized and pulled off a tendril for the win. Game 2 I won due to consistant beats, a mini Tendrils and a top decked Echoning ruth to deal with the horde of goblins (Empty the Warrens) sitting accross the way. Game 3 went to time and he pulled off a Tinker turn 1 of the 5 and he had 100 counterspells in his hand at the time. Loss 1-2.

Round 3, Tendrils Storm/Dark Confidant/Sundering Titan! My deck crapped out on in this one. Could never get anything going, and oh yeah, he drew a hundred counterspells too. 0-2.

Round 4 was played against a R/B/W aggro control with Gorilla Shamens and Mishras Factories (all I really saw.) The high light of my day was in game 2 where I had a Negator duel wielding Swords of Fire and Ice's. (hey, my day was rough, so little things excited me by this point.) Won 2-0

Round 5, I get to the table and my opponant asked me if I was at table 11 (out of 13, yuck) and I said yes. He said, I don't think I want to do this match up. He was watching a previous match of mine. I asked him what he was playing, he said Control Slaver. I said, well okay, if you don't want to play... I was actually disappointed due to never playing Control Slaver with this deck, I wanted to play it out. However, we were both at the bottom, so it didn't matter any way. Small victories, 2-0.

Overall, I like the deck it just seems it lacks power (ability to do broken things). Plus, I think the deck is really punished by consistancy. For example, many times I would have the oppurtunity to Play a Dark Confidant, Duress or save a Stifle in the opening seven. All of them are good plays at the right time, and sometime you just had to guess what the correct play is. Usually, I picked the Duress route, which probably was the best choice, however it is hard to tell going 2-3. Well, thanks for the help with the deck, and I am really looking forward to PC becoming legal so I can test some of the other ideas.

[Kieranwolf]

Negator HATES ETW, sir. I think Cutpurse is a good idea, as well as around 23 permanent mana sources + Lotus and Petal. I made a list this weekend that doesn't run Rod or Chalice or graveyard hate. If you'd like to see how that deck works, look at Sullivan Solution back in the short time when that deck was hot.

I still had a Negator in there, but my foil one is just so insistent on being in every black deck I make. I'm mostly saying that if you can get your draw engine going with creatures (I still have Ninja, with Cutpurse and Confidant), you end up having plenty of hate in Shadow of Doubt, Stifle and FOW. It has no Wastelands and no Strip Mine either, just the above for mana and tutor/gifts hate.

So, that could be considered the 'control' route, while the list above is definitely 'aggro'.

Wastelands might not be so good in some metagames right now. If you have chalices in there, I'd suggest considering Mishra's Factory too. I originally included those in my Mono B list to help against Oath and to try and make my clock faster under Chalice @ 1.

Brainstorm seems like a good card if you have plenty of fetches. You then have the option of FOW.

I'd also like to know why Y. Will is an auto-include. It allows you to replay just what to win the game, now? A Negator? Dark Rituals into I-lose-next-turn-because-my-opponent-combos-out-with-his-topdeck-even-after-four-duresses-last-turn? This deck just doesn't go through its library in four turns or less like Gifts does. Y. Will is at its best when you're loading the graveyard with jewels and bombs, and this deck wants to win with its combat phase, not a combo.

Essentially, I'd like to see what would happen if you made the deck more controllish and less aggro. Go back and try out SS if you like to get an idea of what the other side of the coin is like, though it'd have to be altered quite a bit for today's metagame. It's a good feeling, being essentially an aggro deck that outdraws Gifts and drowns it in slow mana denial and countermagic.