[Deck] Oath

[brianpk80]

Just a small comment:

There's no excuse for not running Yawgmoth's Will in Oath of Druids.  I realize recent standard builds have never included it and Oath is not a "Will" deck.  Nevertheless, it's silly to deny yourself to opportunity to replay a land, a Lotus, cast two Brainstorms, and some other broken spell and reset any early game disadvantage you may have encountered.  Yes, I know after you activate Blessing, you have no graveyard, but if you do that you should be Oathing and winning regardless.  Yawgmoth's Will will save you in the numerous times that you're struggling to get your plan going in the early game.  Not every game begins with Orchard, Mox, Oath, Go! and even when they do, you still don't have anything solid unless it gets through counters (and they don't kill you first). 

The best part is that you have absolutely no pressure to make your Will lethal as do other decks.  You can freely cast it just to replay a land and an Oath of Druids that was previously countered.  It will almost always advance your gameplan, especially if you're running Regrowth (hold it in hand, then Regrow the Will after Oathing).  You will definitely not regret including Yawgmoth's Will in your Oath deck.  I promise.     

-BPK

[verduran]

A small comment huh? If this is such an obvious point, how is this not huge?

So you think the win should be included. Do you mean in every kind of Oath? How about my build, for instance?

  Black Lotus
4  Polluted Delta
1  Flooded Strand
1  Lotus Petal
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Sapphire
2  Underground Sea
2  Tropical Island
1  Snow-Covered Island
1  Island
1  Swamp
4  Forbidden Orchard

  

The Win

1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Oath of Druids

 Protection

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Leak
4 Duress
1 Echoing Truth

Draw/Tutor/Utility

4  Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Gaea's Blessing
  
Hate    

2 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
  
Sideboard

1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Massacre
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Echoing Decay
1 Stifle
1 Pithing Needle
1 Trickbind
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
1 Darkblast

(lately I did this to the maindeck: -1 duress, +1 repeal).


What should I cut?

[brianpk80]

A small comment huh? If this is such an obvious point, how is this not huge?
So you think the win should be included. Do you mean in every kind of Oath? How about my build, for instance?
What should I cut?

1. It is huge and the leverage you gain from adding Yawgmoth's Will to your deck should be obvious.  We're talking about a card that a decent plurality of the Vintage community wants banned solely for power level. 
2. I'm not sure what you mean by "the win" because Oath wins with creatures.  Perhaps you mean "the win" in reference to Will since people call it "YawgWin" all the time.  It should be included in every type of Oath except those that hybrid with Stax and contain 4 Mishra's Workshops as a mana base (these builds are rare but they do exist).
3. Your build would benefit from Yawgmoth's Will, yes.  Remember you don't use it to win games and I see that your Rods and Chalices make Will less spectacular.  You use Yawgmoth's Will as the situation dictates.  Sometimes you will Ancestral yourself, Replay a fetchland, and Duress your opponent.  That more than makes up for including it.  Sometimes you will squeeze only enough mana to play Will and then replay a countered Oath of Druids... but then you (probably) win within 2 turns.  It's always, always, always worth having. 
4. I would cut a Chalice of the Void or the Mystical Tutor.  You might also want to consider increased draw and decreased card disadvantage tutors.  Intuition is spectacular in Oath of Druids and running Intuition in place of card disadvantage tutors would allow you to freely lay Chalice of the Void @ 1 with out shutting down your search engine.

Good luck,

-BPK

[verduran]

I don't think I would ever cut mystical because I really like tutoring for Time Walk. I'll give Y's Will a try though, cutting a Chalice.

[mox apricot]

I personally wouldn't bother with a basic land, but that's probably because of my Meta. Also, do not bother with Hellkite in angel oath, I’ve been messing around whit it for a long time now, and the angels hit for 6+12=18 in two swings Hellkite’s are 5+10=15. if your intend on using hell kits use two of them, and some type of acceleration with them . Dragon’s Breath gives you 10+15=25. That gives you five extra points of damage to swing around at threats, welders and things. And if you can get ride of your Hellkite 5 a turn to deal directly to player in the face of ensnaring bridge.  The biggest problem I have found with Hellkite is space efficiency. To make it comparable to angel oath you need 4 cards allotted to a win condition (2 Hellkite’s and something like 2 Dragons Breathe) opposed to two. I’m convinced there is away to make Hellkite work, but I think the only thing its going to have in common with traditional oaths is 10 or 8 control. I’ve been playing with hellkite builds for a few months now in the Milwaukee area and people are just telling me it’s a terrible idea. Ironically I ran Hellkites with momentary blink in a build as a joke, and it’s been the most successful to date, but I’m just about giving up on the Hellkites. Usually the vigilance is enough to deal with other aggro decks, so I wouldn’t consider the Hellkite unless you can deal the full 20 in 2 swings (there’s got to be an efficient way to do it).
I’d never sb anything like echoing decay. You need have to leave them with a creature. I run smother in my board for fish (hits welder, tog, confidant, grunt, mage, next to anything worth running in a fish short of ninja of the deep hours). I’d recommend running engineered explosives somewhere in the deck or board. There are so many little tricks with that card, it’s insane. So where some one suggested crucible main. I tend to favor Life from the loam. Dredges over Gaea’s blessing and gets rid of unwanted brainstorm top decks. Plus it costs 1 less. I’d take out timetwister, it’ll do more harm then good. I really don’t know how I feel about 2 Gaea’s blessing either. Some one previously mentioned Oxidize, best sb ever. I don’t like damnation very much just seems like engineered explosives and smother will take care of those problems for cheaper.
Also some one mentioned above something to the effect that oath can not compete with storm. Run four main deck chalices. Chalice for 0 doesn’t affect oath very much nor does chalice for 1. I like to run 10 control in oath; your chalice is doing no where. Right now I have 2 null rod main as well. The odd of drawing one of the six right off is good.

Back in this dragon thing. I’m kind of shocked why people are actually considering dragon with an open mind finally. If anyone finds a decent way to deal the full 20 please open a thread on it. I wouldn’t bother sb dragon either as an answer to creature heave decks there are cheaper answers to board that don’t require your win condition do be functioning.

[verduran]

How do you like this sideboard card? This probably doesn't belong in Oath, but I'd like to talk about it any way.
Volcanic Spray

1R
Sorcery

Volcanic Spray deals 1 damage to each creature without flying and each player.
Flashback 1R (You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)

[Bob The Builder]

How do you like this sideboard card? This probably doesn't belong in Oath, but I'd like to talk about it any way.
Volcanic Spray

1R
Sorcery

Volcanic Spray deals 1 damage to each creature without flying and each player.
Flashback 1R (You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)

It's good, if your meta runs Empty the Warrens I'd include this card in oath in a Sideboard slot.

[Balamor]

how about a dash of control oath??
heres my shot at it...

Artifacts (10)
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Black (5)
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Duress

Blue (21)
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant scroll
2 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Thirst for knowledge

Green (7)
1 Crop Rotation
2 Gaea's Blessing
4 Oath Of Druids

Lands (17)
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 island

Other ideas could involve tech sideboard ~
- 4 oath +4 Goblin welders
- 1 Crop Rotation + 1 Mindslaver 
- 2 Gaea's Blessing + 1 Sol Ring +1 Mana Vault
- 2 Tidespout Tyrant + 1 Tendrils of Agony +1 Empty the warrens
9 card sideboard almost makes it control slaver =P
-4 forbidden orchard +2 volcanic island +1 island +1 Biju who shelter all
13 card sideboard it IS control slaver.
+1 red ele blast
+1 Blue ele blast
15 (those other 2 are just to round it off you can put whatever there)
Long story short this is how it plays out.
game 1 - Get oath out quick, as usual bounce all his s--- while you draw cards and smash face for 5.
game 2 - they think they got ya with their tech anti oath sideboard _ BAM outa nowhere you turn 3 combo out into a 10 stormed tendrils

  cant tell if this is a reasonable idea or not its early in the morning and im tired from reading forums.

thoughts on moving oath away from the flying pests?

[brianpk80]

how about a dash of control oath??
heres my shot at it...
thoughts on moving oath away from the flying pests?

You have the right creatures (Tyrant) and a mix of disruption and protection.  Although your list would grab a fair share of wins, there is a lot that can be done to optimize it.

First, I don't think you need to include Gaea's Blessing, let alone two copies.  I would replace them straight up with Tyrant # 3 and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV.  Add a lone Tundra and with the right Moxen and base of 4 Orchards, you get your white splash if he gets stuck in hand (easily hardcast, and typically a must-counter bomb).  Having more creatures makes you less likely to Oath your library away defeating the need for Blessing.  When Blessing gets stuck in your hand, it's a clog because half the time, Fish is cutting you off from green or making you give them tokens (lots and lots of tokens) to bash your head in to cast green spells.  The other half of the time, you're playing against control/storm and you have to spend a whole turn "cycling" the Blessing.  Not worth it IMO.  If you have fear of Oathing your library away, try Academy Ruins + Life from the Loam or an increased creature count.  Note that Tyrants are hardcast all the time and having one in hand goes from being early dead weight (and Pitch/Bstorm fodder) to being your power play as the game advances.  Try running Tolarian Academy and you'll probably like seeing how easily the Tyrants can come down. 

There's an excellent thread on Tyrant Oath a few pages down in the Vintage Open Forum that has both controlling and combo-oriented lists.  I have some more suggestions for your list but for now, I'd try some of what I wrote above and some of the ideas in the Tyrant Oath thread.  I'm using a revised Tyrant Oath list myself and am very happy with it. 

-BPK

[mox apricot]

Just a small comment:

There's no excuse for not running Yawgmoth's Will in Oath of Druids.  I realize recent standard builds have never included it and Oath is not a "Will" deck. 

iOath  of Druids is definitely a “Will” deck, Force of Will. It runs four. I can't  imagine any other “Will”  that would belong in this deck due to the Gaea's Blessing that is standard in most builds. At least every third oath activation is going to empty out your graveyard, assuming your playing a build running one Gaea's Blessing, which most do (although I've had people recommend running two). Especially in recent builds where Life from the Loam is getting included more and more because it has the fail safe of Gaea's blessing to keep from decking out with in addition to fixing land problems and card advantage grouped in with its alternate win condition. If you are considering running Yawgmoth's Will i would suggest pulling Gaea's blessing in favor of Krosan Reclamation. But keep in mind that you will no longer h ave a way of putting the 8-10 control back in your library. My main problem is that Yawgmoth's Will has terrible synergy with Gaea's Blessing, and would rarely pull Gaea's Blessing. There are just to many situations were I would much rather have Blessing. Keep in mind that oath has a weaker draw engine, and thats not just a special issue. Its a practicality issue, every draw you make your one draw closer to putting your win condition into the last place you want it to be. So having a bunch of thirst sitting in your yard i isn't a great thing.
I think there is some potential in the yawg's will idea. But I'd make these changes to start with
-Gaea's blessing
-3 impulse/thirst for knowledge
+ Krosan Reclamation
+3 Intuition

[brianpk80]

Just a small comment:

There's no excuse for not running Yawgmoth's Will in Oath of Druids.  I realize recent standard builds have never included it and Oath is not a "Will" deck. 

iOath  of Druids is definitely a “Will” deck, Force of Will. It runs four.

A "Will deck" is a common term referring to a class of decks that aims to achieve victory after a lethal Yawgmoth's Will or places some high importance on setting up and resolving Yawgmoth's Will.  Think of Gifts, Pitch Long, Grim Long, Intuition Tendrils, and other similar decks.  The term "Will deck" carries no reference to the presence or absence of Force of Wills in the deck, even though many Will decks do incidentally run FoW x 4.     

I can't  imagine any other “Will”  that would belong in this deck due to the Gaea's Blessing that is standard in most builds.

Card for card, Yawgmoth's Will is approximately 4,500 times better than Gaea's Blessing.  If you read my posts carefully, you'll find that I touch upon this very important notion: Even with the friction between Blessing and Will, failing to include Will is an oversight because you're going to be using Yawgmoth's Will to help you get Oath online most of the time.  You use it primarily to set up a winning position, not simply to exploit that position after Oathing.  The fact that sometimes you will resolve a mammoth Will after Oathing is just icing on the cake.  And even if your graveyard gets shuffled back into your library, you should have a pretty powerful creature sitting on the table and not be affected significantly by a "dead" draw Yawgmoth's Will.

Secondly, I recommend dropping Gaea's Blessing altogether.  I've done it without regret and only miss it once every 150 games; I run 4 creatures however so decking myself is rare.  Blessing is a tempo pothole and a dead draw all of the time.  If you like it and you play Oath, then run both Blessing and Will.  If you don't like Blessing, then run Will. (Yawgmoth's Will)

Especially in recent builds where Life from the Loam is getting included more and more because it has the fail safe of Gaea's blessing to keep from decking out with in addition to fixing land problems and card advantage grouped in with its alternate win condition.

Life from the Loam does not prevent you from decking yourself.  If you have no cards left in your library, you are unable to meet the Dredge requirementt and cannot Dredge anything.  Therefore, you must draw and if you cannot you lose.  Academy Ruins can get around this by putting any artifact from your graveyard on the top of your library during your upkeep.   

The point of Loam in Oath is manifold.  It helps v. common mana denial strategies like Fish, has great synergy with Mishra's Factory, and makes killer Intuition piles like Academy, Loam, Strip.  It also makes sure you have a spell to cast if you play Tyrant Oath and have a hand full of land and counters.  You dredge the Loam, cast it and then bounce whatever is giving you a headache.  It's a great addition to the deck, however Loam will not prevent self-decking. 

If you are considering running Yawgmoth's Will i would suggest pulling Gaea's blessing in favor of Krosan Reclamation.

I would never recommend this.  Krosan Reclamation is a textbook case of "win more."  The goal is to win and you're going to want cards that will help you weather suboptimal conditions rather than cards that create lots of fireworks but only when you are already in the winning position.

-BPK

[Tin_Mox5831]

I can't even remember the last time I picked up Oath, but here's what I would play if I had to run Oath:

Underground Sea x 2
Tropical Island x 2
Forbidden Orchard x 4
Flooded Strand x 3
Wasteland x 3
Strip Mine x 1
Island x 2

Black Lotus x 1
Lotus Petal x 1
Mox Jet x 1
Mox Ruby x 1
Mox Pearl x 1
Mox Emerald x 1
Mox Sapphire x 1
Chalice Of The Void x 4
Pithing Needle x 3

Oath Of Druids x 4

Duress x 4
Merchant Scroll x 2
Demonic Tutor x 1
Gaea's Blessing x 1

Force Of Will x 4
Brainstorm x 4
Chain Of Vapor x 1
Echoing Truth x 1
Ancestral Recall x 1
Vampiric Tutor x 1
Thirst For Knowledge x 3

Akroma, Angel Of Wrath x 1
Razia, Boros Archangel x 1

Sideboard:
Null Rod x 3
Leyline Of The Void x 4
Simic Sky Swallower x 2
Extirpate x 3
Krosan Grip x 3

Now, this is by no means a perfect list, but it is a very powerful and fun list to try out. Just be forewarned, it's playstyle isn't everyone's cup of tea. Oath needs to do just a couple of things to secure most matchups: (1) Find, resolve, and protect Oath. (2) Disrupt for a couple of turns via mana denial or hand disruption. (3) Win the Orchard War in the mirror. If your build can consistently do those things, you'll be fine. Unfortunately, too many Oath builds cannot do those things proficiently, which is why Oath T8's are usually reserved for good players who tune their lists often. (I.E. Team ICBM and a few others.)

Anyway, keep up the hard work!

Later,
Dave

[madmanmike25]

Tin_Mox, why no Time Walk?  And could you explain why you use Pithing Needle over a card such as Mana Leak or even putting the Null Rods maindeck?

Is 24 mana sources enough?  I always included 4 copies of wasteland in my Oath builds and never regretted it.

The only reason I stopped playing Oath is that it gets worse every turn you don't find Oath or Oath AND Orchard.  In longer games, how awesome is a turn 6 Oath?  You still usually need 2 turns after it resolves, sometimes 3 if they haven't suffered 2 point of damage.(yes, that does happen sometimes)  It is possible to hardcast Angels with the help of Black Lotus, but that is a rarity.

A question for other Oath players:  How aggressively do you play Oath?  That is to say, do you ever 'go for it' and cast it turn 1 with no counter back up?  Pretend you have no knowledge of your enemy.  This can pertain to both a first turn Oath with or without Orchard.

p.s. Has anyone tested Scroll Rack to put creatures back?  I recall that one list ran it, but I haven't heard any results.  Please respond to this question only if you have actually put it in a deck and tested it before you tell me it is bad (which I would intuitively agree with)

[mox apricot]

Just a small comment:
A "Will deck" is a common term referring to a class of decks that aims to achieve victory after a lethal Yawgmoth's Will or places some high importance on setting up and resolving Yawgmoth's Will.  Think of Gifts, Pitch Long, Grim Long, Intuition Tendrils, and other similar decks.  The term "Will deck" carries no reference to the presence or absence of Force of Wills in the deck, even though many Will decks do incidentally run FoW x 4.     

Card for card, Yawgmoth's Will is approximately 4,500 times better than Gaea's Blessing.  If you read my posts carefully, you'll find that I touch upon this very important notion: Even with the friction between Blessing and Will, failing to include Will is an oversight because you're going to be using Yawgmoth's Will to help you get Oath online most of the time.  You use it primarily to set up a winning position, not simply to exploit that position after Oathing.  The fact that sometimes you will resolve a mammoth Will after Oathing is just icing on the cake.  And even if your graveyard gets shuffled back into your library, you should have a pretty powerful creature sitting on the table and not be affected significantly by a "dead" draw Yawgmoth's Will.

Secondly, I recommend dropping Gaea's Blessing altogether.  I've done it without regret and only miss it once every 150 games; I run 4 creatures however so decking myself is rare.  Blessing is a tempo pothole and a dead draw all of the time.  If you like it and you play Oath, then run both Blessing and Will.  If you don't like Blessing, then run Will. (Yawgmoth's Will)

Life from the Loam does not prevent you from decking yourself.  If you have no cards left in your library, you are unable to meet the Dredge requirementt and cannot Dredge anything.  Therefore, you must draw and if you cannot you lose.  Academy Ruins can get around this by putting any artifact from your graveyard on the top of your library during your upkeep.   

life of loam does not prevent you form decking  your self, gaea's blessing does. correct it works well with the dreadge mechanic. on occassions i have used loam with exsessive dreding to get controll available to me.


I am aware of what a will deck is,  thought the “Force of Will” thing was pretty funny joke.

loam does not prevent you form decking  your self, Gaea's Blessing does. correct it works well with the dredge mechanic, which was the point i was trying to make. on occasions I have used loam with excessive dredging to get control (and to a lesser degree, search) available again. The decking prevention requires a bit of for though, you have to do it while you can still dredge, but it has saved me.

I've also tried pulling Blessing from my list, oddly I missed it a lot more than you did, to each his own I guess(lost  a win at least once every couple game sets).  With out blessing drawing your creatures is nearly a game loss every time aside form the factory beat. It also give slaver and extra win condition.

sorry this post is breif i'm short on time

[brianpk80]

MoxApricot,

Cutting Gaea's Blessing requires serious accomodations.  I'd argue they're worth it.  When I get around to posting my Oath list, I'll explain what I've done to compensate for losing Blessing. 

I didn't realize you intended your Force of Will comment to be a joke.  Try an emoticon next time so there's no ambiguity.   

p.s. Has anyone tested Scroll Rack to put creatures back?  I recall that one list ran it, but I haven't heard any results.  Please respond to this question only if you have actually put it in a deck and tested it before you tell me it is bad (which I would intuitively agree with)

Mike, this is an excellent idea.  I never considered Scroll Rack but I could see it serving so many purposes in my Oath list, putting creatures back, Ancestralling with every Life from the Loam, finding the Oath, etc.  I will be testing this.

-BPK   

[hitman]

@ madmanmike - When I test Oath, I play conservatively.  I almost never go first turn Oath game one.  My reasons are, I don't know what they're playing and I want to appear like I may have a controlling hand, I don't want storm decks to know what I'm playing and outrace me, and the earlier I play an Oath, the more time and resources the opponent will have to find an answer.  If they have a full hand and unknown mana available to them, it would be foolish of me to try to win without knowing if playing an Oath is even relevant at that point.  I usually try to kill their mana and hand (Chalice and/or Duress) first.  If it's game two and I know what they're playing, I'll drop an aggressive Chalice and try to win with Oath and backup (Force and Drain).  Unless it's Goblins, Fish, or Stax, I never try to outrace them.  Oath is too slow.  For me, it's all about being able to drop the Oath when the opportunity is just right, when I'm in control.

I believe the strength of Oath is that it only requires 6 winning cards (4 Oaths and 2 Angels), only two of which are dead in the hand.  You can make your deck the most savage control deck and take advantage of your opponents weak board/hand position at any given time because of Oaths casting cost.  When playing against Oath, your opponent needs to understand that and play cautiously so Chalice, Wasteland, counters, Rod, etc. don't hose their entire game plan.  Just that knowledge buys you time against storm decks.  I like Oath because it's a deck you can really manipulate information with, at least in my testing.  I think first turn Oath limits that ability and isn't even fast enough to win a lot of games.

@ brianpk - I don't play Will.  My reason is that to play it I give up some of my ability to keep my opponent off guard.  What do I need to replay that's so important?  It could be that we play Oath the card differently.  I play it conservatively.  I've noticed from recent posts that you play Intuition.  If you want to replay A.R. or Intuition, you're probably playing Merchant Scroll.  I think Scroll is bad in decks that aren't fast enough to care whether their opponent knows what cards they have in their hand.  Same with Intuition.  Instead of trying to speed the deck up, maybe we should consider playing the deck along the lines of Slaver.  Never giving away much, making tempo plays, and when the time is right, you play your bomb or combination of bombs.  Oath will never realistically be able to race the faster decks.  Just my opinion.

[brianpk80]

Hitman,

Without delving into too much detail, I would say the most compelling reason for running Will is that it helps ensure you don't run out of gas.  When I have those hands that just keep Brainstorming into lands and counters (that eventually get used up), casting Will just to Brainstorm twice and replay a land is often all I need to get back in the game.  Plus, as we all know, sometimes "getting back in the game" means having an insane card advantage just handed to you on a silver plate by virtue of resolving Will.  I play Oath more controlling and use many of the techniques you mention, like masking my deck's identity.  My approach is partially Toolbox as well, hence the Scrolls and some utility blue instants, Intuition, Life from the Loam and utility lands (including Orchard).  I don't run Accumulated Knowledge. 

One question that came to mind while reading your response was if we want to take Oath in a more Slaver-oriented direction, how can we not include Yawgmoth's Will?

-BPK   

[hitman]

brainpk80, when I said I play it out like Slaver, I meant play style, not necessarily the cards played.  I understand the reasons you play Will.  I'm questioning whether it's necessary.  If the thing lacking is gas, is Will better than something else would be?  I realize Will is really strong but it's a lot better in a deck that can abuse it better.  If Oath is a control deck with a big creature finish and a lot of manipulative plays, would Will accentuate those strong points? 

My argument is that Scrolls, Intuition, Will, etc. limit the subtle plays you can make and help your opponent prepare for plays you'll make in the future.  If both players play tightly and you Intuition or Scroll, all the opponent has to do is tutor for the answer.  Even if you have counter backup, its just as likely that they do too but with more mana because they didn't cast Scroll or Intuition.  I clump Will in with Merchant Scroll and Intuition because you said you play Will for more gas, in general.  These are the most likely targets in the graveyard for more gas, besides Recall.  Without Rituals or more mana acceleration, Will might be underwhelming

Maybe it would be helpful to know your list or the general strategy you have and how it plays out in games.  I like Repeal in Oath because it can be a great tempo card while drawing you a card and cutting off end-of-turn options your opponent might have.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Oops. As you can see from my post time, it was late. The list was off the top of my head @ work. I totally missed Walk!

- 1 Pithing Needle
+1 Time Walk

Sorry about that.

Also, I don't play Mana Leak in my deck because it had diminishing returns in the mid-game and beyond. Duress, on the other hand is as devastating on Turn 6 as it is on Turn 1. As far as Pithing Needle goes, it has synergy with Thirst For Knowledge and can garner you lots of tempo if played intelligently. Null Rod is in the sideboard mainly due to simple space issues, but I find that subbing them in for the Needles and a Duress is perfectly acceptable. The reason I like Chalice in the main and Rod in the board is that Rod is by far the better of the two cards when playing from behind. If they get their SoLoMoxen down before you get CotV, too bad. If you find Null Rod, however, you can "undo" a lot of the tempo they have gained on you.

Later,
Dave

[brianpk80]

brainpk80, when I said I play it out like Slaver, I meant play style, not necessarily the cards played. 

Hitman, I understood that you meant in play style not cards chosen.  No fun Oathing up a Welder. 
My response was intended to refer to playstyle since the possibility of an overwhelming Yawgmoth's Will is one of the main driving forces in Slaver.  Hence, if we shifted Oath towards a Slaver playstyle, incorporating a Will culmination seems only natural.

I understand the reasons you play Will.  I'm questioning whether it's necessary.  If the thing lacking is gas, is Will better than something else would be? 

Honestly, no.  There is no card that gives you more quantitative gas than one that reads "play all of your business spells over again."  Further, I don't think the list I run lacks gas, but the fact of the matter is that every deck has those moments where things just aren't happening as planned.  Will is spectacular then.

I realize Will is really strong but it's a lot better in a deck that can abuse it better. 

Agreed, Yawgmoth's Will is much "better" in decks like Gifts or Long who actually rely in some part on resolving it (this of course not being their only means of victory, but the easiest).  My argument here is that Will is so powerful that even though it's not as critical to an Oath list as it is to a Gifts deck, it still very much earns its place.

If Oath is a control deck with a big creature finish and a lot of manipulative plays, would Will accentuate those strong points? 

Definitely.  Is Brainstorm worth including in Oath?  Time Walk? Ancestral Recall?  Chalice of the Void?  Will takes the aggregate benefit of all Oath deck enablers in the graveyard and literally doubles it when resolved. 

My argument is that Scrolls, Intuition, Will, etc. limit the subtle plays you can make and help your opponent prepare for plays you'll make in the future.  If both players play tightly and you Intuition or Scroll, all the opponent has to do is tutor for the answer. 

I see your point, however "tutor[ing] for the answer" sounds a lot better in theory than in practice.  There's no shame in Scrolling for Recall (which in fact misleads opponents to assume "Meandeck Gifts" and misplay accordingly).  No shame in scrolling for Force of Will v. Long.  Against anything without counters (Stax, Ichorid), there's no loss resolving Intuition for Oath of Druids x 3.  Against Control, if I've lain a Chalice @ 0 and Intuition for Strip Mine, Life from the Loam, and Library of Alexandria, on the second turn, "tutor[ing] for the answer" isn't likely to be accomplished realistically. 

Even if you have counter backup, its just as likely that they do too but with more mana because they didn't cast Scroll or Intuition. 

Control may run more counters but probably not enough to deal with every threat in Oath.  Given that each Oath is a 1{G} Tinker, I'd much prefer to be on the Oath side.  And if I were playing against Oath, I would hate having to prevent not only Oath of Druids from resolving, but every CA piece thrown at me like Scroll, AR, Loam + Brainstorm, Intuition, and virtual CA pieces like Chalice. 

I clump Will in with Merchant Scroll and Intuition because you said you play Will for more gas, in general.  These are the most likely targets in the graveyard for more gas, besides Recall.  Without Rituals or more mana acceleration, Will might be underwhelming

Brainstorm is the best reliable Will enabler, in my opinion.  Other goodies I see in the graveyard include Moxen, Lotus, Time Walk, Oath of Druids itself, Chalice, Repeal, Demonic Tutor, and Academy.  I would rarely cast Intuition on a Will turn except if I were desperate for an Oath (since it removes the other two cards) and if I Scrolled during a Will turn it would probably be for a pitch counter.

Maybe it would be helpful to know your list or the general strategy you have and how it plays out in games.  I like Repeal in Oath because it can be a great tempo card while drawing you a card and cutting off end-of-turn options your opponent might have.

Repeal is pretty good in Oath and I run one maindeck along with an Echoing Truth.  My build may be more Will-friendly than some Oath lists but the card is so rawly broken that I do believe it belongs in every Oath list (aside from the rare Workshop/Oath hybrids).

-BPK

[mox apricot]

@ brainpk
I’m going to have to agree with there not being much worth playing in oath’s graveyard. It seems like all you’d want t do is replay your brainstorms/other draws spells.  This brings me back to oath’s draw engine being smaller than most other decks. Drawing a card can kill your game plan. True you can potentially brain storm an angel back in, but I’m fairly certain 90% of the oath players out there plan on casting chalice for 1. Plus once your opponent knows your playing oath, they start to not let the lat game brainstorms resolve. It’s risky to count on something like that a late game brainstorm to undo the second recall you previously cast. I’d say if you have the space, and aren’t running null rods, run scroll rack, choose which resources you’re keeping around, and have an out for your angels.
I am going to say that you are definitely running a very different oath list than I am. No intuition, scroll, or repeal.

@madman mike
game 1 I do not play aggressively. Like people were mentioning before, oath’s ambiguity is an amazing advantage, I’ve started running Thirst for Knowledge in place of Impulse for that reason. Hell, I’ve actually cast chalice for 2 in tournament play to throw my opponent on the bomber man trail
game 2 I tend to be a little more ballsy. As long as the odds are above 50% I’ll go for it until I get a little burned. Figured the cat’s out of the bag.

[brianpk80]

Mox Apricot,

Brainstorming twice is a fine move for Oath.  Otherwise why bother including Brainstorm in the first place?  You see more cards and you put them to use as the game state dictates.  Every deck wants a good mix of mana, defense/disrupt, and business spells and Yawgmoth's Will duplicates any of the above that you've drawn (or Oathed) into. 

Additionally, you're talking about casting Will as though the only use it has is to put an Angel back into your library.  First, Will shines when you don't have the Oath in play because it lets you replay draw and tutors that enable you to find Oath in the first place.  Secondly, if you do have the Oath and you've just split half of your library into your graveyard (assuming you run no Blessing like me or you haven't triggered it) can you think of any reason why you wouldn't want to resolve Yawgmoth's Will with a graveyard filled with approx. 30 cards?  FWIW there's bound to be easy access to Time Walk somewhere in that pile.

Worst case scenario: you run Blessing, you Oath, Blessing triggers, you topdeck Yawgmoth's Will.  It's no more deleterious to your winning position than drawing an unneeded late game mana source. 

For those curious about Yawgmoth's Will in Oath, try making an Oath list preferably with Intuition (but even without it is fine).  Tell me how many times you regret drawing or topdecking Yawgmoth's Will.  Almost never.  Even with the most stringent mana denial builds, there's always some use for it.  There's seriously no reason to exclude the most powerful card in Vintage from Oath of Druids. 

-BPK

[madmanmike25]

A Yawgmoths Will isn't usually what you want to see in your opening grip as it isn't very effective unless you have an insane hand.  It is however an insane topdeck/tutor target, even in Oath.  The potential that Will has as a topdeck to get you back in the game is worth its inclusion as one card.

I like Intuition in Oath as a tutor, but here are my favorite 3 cards to get:

Life from the Loam
Stripmine
Forbidden Orchard/any land that can produce G

It won't be game-breaking if you are behind but if you are even just a little ahead in terms of tempo, that combination can be all the control you need.  This is even more effective if you have a Chalice @ 0 in play.

Thanks for answering my question hitman and mox apricot.  I tend to play Oath aggressively, thats just my style. I guess I have played against Fish too much and an early Oath that resolves is game, even if one Angel gets plowed.  I probably wouldn't go for it if the rest of my hand was garbage though, I would go for it if I had some hope to get back in the game if Oath got countered.

Brian, what list are you currently using?  I would like to focus on one particular build of Oath if that is at all possible even though there are many.  Any luck with Scroll Rack?  Or do you maindeck Null Rod?

[Nehptis]

I think that the Loam tempo engine is a viable one.  It's a card that I'm strongly considering adding to my build.

Speaking of tempo, if this new Counterspell is for real then I think Mana Leak has some competition in my build.

Delay - 1U
Instant
Counter Target spell. If the spell is countered in this way remove it from the game with three time counters on it instead of putting it into its owner's graveyard. If it doesn't have suspend, it gains suspend.
Uncommon.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=73110


Point  / Counterpoint:
Same casting cost...nice!  I hate UU in Oath, hence no Drains in my build.
Delay is a hard counter, until suspend expires.  Mana Leak is not.
If I understand Suspend correctly then when the last counter is removed and the spell resolves then you can counter it again.
Vs decks that rely on the GY, Delay is better than ML since the card is RFG.  Meaning if you counter a Crucible with ML, it goes to the GY and can be Welded back in.  Counter it with Delay and it's gone for 3 turns.  Also, counter a DT or Grim T vs Storm and they can't be Willed back for 3 turns.

What do you guys think?  What are the downsides to Delay?

[madmanmike25]

I think that the Loam tempo engine is a viable one.  It's a card that I'm strongly considering adding to my build.

It is worth testing.  It is awesome with Intuition(see above post), yet decent enough as a singleton to be tutored for.  Seeing as most Oath builds have Crop Rotation, Loam works well to either win the Orchard war or to keep Stripmine on the table

Delay - 1U
Instant
Counter Target spell. If the spell is countered in this way remove it from the game with three time counters on it instead of putting it into its owner's graveyard. If it doesn't have suspend, it gains suspend.

What do you guys think?  What are the downsides to Delay?

I think it might replace Mana Leak.  1U is much easier to get than UU as you said, especially when most of Oath's lands are not basic(yet another reason for Loam).  Past turn 3, it *can* be considered a hard counter whereas Mana Leak cannot.

The downside is that Oath still needs 2-3 turns after Oath resolves, and that's if you already have Oath in play.  If you haven't resolved Oath then....it's very iffy, they will probably be seeing that spell again.  Worth testing in my opinion.

And yes, you can counter the spell again. You can use another Delay, how annoying.

[brianpk80]

Brian, what list are you currently using?  I would like to focus on one particular build of Oath if that is at all possible even though there are many.  Any luck with Scroll Rack?  Or do you maindeck Null Rod?

Mike, if I get around to it, I'll post a full list in the Open Forum with some explanations of the principles I follow when playing the deck.  It's a Tyrant Oath control list and the governing idea is to run a good deck that includes Oath of Druids rather than running a one-trick pony deck that has no maneuvers up its sleeve except to stall, search, and resolve Oath of Druids.  But I've been real busy with work and a messy break-up so MtG is on the backburner.

To answer your other questions, I haven't had a chance to test Scroll Rack but it's an idea I want to explore along with the Academy Ruins/Loam protection over self-decking in place of Gaea's Blessing.  I have Null Rod in the sideboard but not maindeck.  Honestly, I only side Rod in a few matches so I'm happy with the choice of keeping it sb. 

-BPK

[mox apricot]

Mox Apricot,

Brainstorming twice is a fine move for Oath.  Otherwise why bother including Brainstorm in the first place?  You see more cards and you put them to use as the game state dictates.  Every deck wants a good mix of mana, defense/disrupt, and business spells and Yawgmoth's Will duplicates any of the above that you've drawn (or Oathed) into. 

Additionally, you're talking about casting Will as though the only use it has is to put an Angel back into your library.  First, Will shines when you don't have the Oath in play because it lets you replay draw and tutors that enable you to find Oath in the first place.  Secondly, if you do have the Oath and you've just split half of your library into your graveyard (assuming you run no Blessing like me or you haven't triggered it) can you think of any reason why you wouldn't want to resolve Yawgmoth's Will with a graveyard filled with approx. 30 cards?  FWIW there's bound to be easy access to Time Walk somewhere in that pile.

Worst case scenario: you run Blessing, you Oath, Blessing triggers, you topdeck Yawgmoth's Will.  It's no more deleterious to your winning position than drawing an unneeded late game mana source. 

For those curious about Yawgmoth's Will in Oath, try making an Oath list preferably with Intuition (but even without it is fine).  Tell me how many times you regret drawing or topdecking Yawgmoth's Will.  Almost never.  Even with the most stringent mana denial builds, there's always some use for it.  There's seriously no reason to exclude the most powerful card in Vintage from Oath of Druids. 

-BPK

hey bpk,

I’m not saying brainstorming is a bad idea in oath at all. It’s the best possible draw oath can ask for. I’m just saying it’s unlikely to happen. I chalice for 1 every chance I get, and if your opponent is watching you, and any good, there not going to let a late game brainstorm resolve. I am, however, saying that casting a couple of ancestral recalls and or thirsts with will is not a very good move at all, especially with the brainstorm unlikely to resolve.
   I am not talking about using will to put an angel back in your library. I’m saying you seem to intend to cast will make some heavy draws and play a land to get back into business. I think that this is not the ideal move in oath, because you’re more likely to put your win condition in a place you can no longer put it into play from. That’s why lots of people run things like impulse, they want to avoid excessive draw.
   Worst case scenario is not having will being a dead card, its using your late game resources and drawing your angels. Late game your odds of drawing them are greatly increased. I do see the validity of replaying a tutor that didn’t resolve, or fishing out a time walk but that’s 3 cards, to one of which is not immediately useful. The rolling over a time walk during you oath isn’t very likely either.
   I tend to agree with the statement that oath is a control deck with a big creature finish. However, drawing can be dangerous, due to its nature. That puts the deck sort of at odds with its self. The oath’s I’ve seen have mostly decided to run 10 control spells to deal with this. That is 1/6 of a deck that is not very useful in a yawg’s will scenario. Other than that there are the brainstorms, which tend to not resolve if you didn’t remove them to force already, and the draw spells, I tend to favor thirst, which can ruin your game plan. it seems like the best use of yawg’s will is to replay a wipe away, echoing truth, engineered explosives or something of that nature. Most standard oath builds I’ve seen don’t run very many non-control defensive cards. So yawg’s will is sub optimal opposed to main decking an additional flexible card like engineered explosives.
if you plan on running yawg’s will in oath, I’d highly suggest playing intuition as I’ve stated in a previous post, it mast will a more flexible card, I’d also recommend replacing blessing with Krosan Reclamation. Not for the purpose of “winning more” but as a way of not decking out in the event of a very deep oath, an out if your draw your angels (or they get destroyed), returning control, or returning a non control card if will as already been played.

[brianpk80]

Mox,

I usually burn any Brainstorms I have before laying a Chalice @ 1.  If you're worried about drawing into Angels while you reap the massive advantages of Will, you might as well just tutor for a Lotus or whatever you need to hardcast Angels, if you're running them.  If you run Tyrant, they don't clog your hand nearly as much.  A moderately developed mana base esp. with Academy is all it takes.

-BPK

[mox apricot]

bpk,
   Whether or not you burn off as many brainstorms as you can before laying chalice at one is beside the point, we all do that if we have the luxury. From your posts you seem to intend on playing yawg’s will late game after you have “run out of gas”. Your brainstorms are in the yard, playing them prior doesn’t change the fact that they are still very difficult to resolve late game, especially if your opponent knows your playing oath. Also, not drawing vast amounts is exactly what I’m advocating, especially late game where the odds of drawing your angel is massively increased. its is true, tyrants will not clog up you and nearly as much, but angels versus Tidespout is a whole other debate, even with the help of a black lotus sometimes hard casting an angel, especial Razia, is an issue, especially if your spending mana to find the lotus, and the 3 spent on yawg’s will in the first place. Also, I Tolarian Academy is a rarity in most oath builds; I haven’t seen it played in a build in a long time. Even if it was, it will not help with producing rrww.
   My point isn’t that you don’t make it work in you build, from what I’ve read on this thread it seem your build is unique/functional. But I feel it is sub optimal in standard oath builds. I’ve play tested yawg’s will and I am rarely in the position where I could use it effectively. I also found myself longing for Gaea’s Blessing. For the most part I feel cutting blessing makes you too dependant on brainstorm, and an excellent extirpate target. Tormod’s Crypt also makes sure the risk your taking playing yawg’s will doesn’t pay off to begin with; Tormod’s Crypt is a very common card in a lot of people’s meta. I find Yawg’s will doesn’t synergize with the vast majority of standard oath builds, which is why it is not included. I am, however, genuinely curious about your build/meta, particularly how you avoid the dependence on brainstorm.

-mox apricot

[brianpk80]

Mox,

Tolarian Academy is a must-include in Tyrant builds.  Most of my Oath experience revolves around Tyrant Oath which I prefer to Angel Oath for many reasons that I've stated all over the forum here in the past few months (check out Malhavoc's old Tyrant Oath thread from August 2006 for instance).  Will is amazing here and my argument is that even though it might not be as strong in Angel Oath as it is in Gifts or Storm, Yawgmoth's Will is so versatile, flexible, and overwhelmingly powerful that any Oath based deck (with its blue base, card advantage, and search) should be able to benefit from including it.  It might not theoretically "fit" with the Oath game-plan but that theoretical friction is far outweighed by the numerous options and routes to victory you acquire when you resolve Yawgmoth's Will. 

-BPK