Oath of Druids different build potential

[silvernail]

    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Bayou
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Forbidden Orchard
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Darksteel Colossus
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    4 Oath of Druids
    4 Duress
    3 Extirpate
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Krosan Reclamation
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Tinker
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Seedtime
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Regrowth
    2 Extract
    2 Echoing Truth
    1 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing
SB: 1 Simic Sky Swallower
SB: 1 Sky Hussar
SB: 4 Sea Drake
SB: 4 Phyrexian Negator
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance


This is just a first attempt at making a faster oath deck that can kill in two turns instead of 3. It runs janky cards like extract and extripate to execute your opponents efforts at winning...sorry too much E isnt good
I figured I'd try using discard and singleton removers instead of countermagic, but that might be a bad idea.

Also has the typical tinker->Colossus plan.

So far in minor testing it beats time Spiral block decks ( n00bs on MWS   ) and random dragonstorm decks.... I'll try and get more testing later on though.

Theoretically it should have some potential vs gifts decks with duress, extripate and extract to allow you to disrupt their plans and hopefully give you enough time to go off. Also it runs Echoing Truth MD to have some chance against goblin tokens.

Vs other combo again the Duress Extripate and Extract plan should offer some disruption, though it may not be enough.

The sideboard is mostly a transformational board with 3cc beaters and Sphere of Resistance to slow up other decks, though you do have Simic vs spot removal and Sky Hussar might be useful to force a 2 turn win ( since the MD can still take 3 turns if kiki hits play before darky). The gaea's blessing is there if you fear accidentally decking yourself in a tricky match up where you might not resolve a FB reclimation.

[rBt]

I miss Regrowth and Timetwister, my deck is different of course, but Regrowth+Timetwister are better then 2 Krosan Reclamation imo.

Rather than just saying they're better, you need to tell us why they're better.
-Godder

[silvernail]

I run regrowth, but time twister is not what I want. I want to lower my oponnents options to survive not increase them by giving him 7 fresh cards.

[Moxlotus]

With Angels you kill after turn 2 if your opponent has done 2 damage to himself.  That's pretty common.

With Angels, if you have 1 in hand you still get to beat with the other one.

With your build, if you have DSC in hand, you get Kiki-Jiki--which blows.

[silvernail]

Well the odds of drawing DSC or Kiki isnt that much, and in that case ya it sucks but you do have brainstorms to fix it.

That being said , stating that I can accidently draw DSC doesn't mean my deck is bad, it justs means that you can't forumlate a reasonable reasoning with which to reason that my deck is bad.

Rational reasoning 4TW, because I'm just that awesome.

[rBt]

I miss Regrowth and Timetwister, my deck is different of course, but Regrowth+Timetwister are better then 2 Krosan Reclamation imo.

Rather than just saying they're better, you need to tell us why they're better.
-Godder

Ok the reason why:
It's not about giving your opponent a new hand, but it's making sure you dont run out of cards, because if you are out to fetch only one creature, you probably end up with at least half your deck in your gy.

Moreover, there is a very large chance one of the two creatures get killed/bounced. In that case the creature is stuck in the gy or your hand. Of course you have cards for that, but it's an extra possibility to get your creature(s) back where you want m.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of creature combo decks with Oath. I prefer to keep it simple, 6/6 6/3 fliers with haste are insane. But that's personal preference of course!

EDIT:
By the way, you are running a lot of "card extraction", don't you think that is a bit of an overkill?
I mean, in T1 what card do you want to Extirpate? Tendrils of Agony is probably the most likely candidate, but trickbind works just as fine. Extract is fun, but together with Cranial Extraction it's just too much. Where are you FoWs? You really need those to get your Oath in play, or to protect it.

Also about Echoing Truth, usually a Chalice of the Void is cast for 2, run Rushing River.

I would recommend more draw possibilities, like impulse, also an imperial seal might be an idea (good way to make sure you wont turn your entire library to find kiki jiki).

Btw, VS Slight type of decks, run angels in the board, or at least something with a lot of body, since your combo wont work there (2Toughness, VS 3dmg spells don't work).

[OfficeShredder]

Well the odds of drawing DSC or Kiki isnt that much, and in that case ya it sucks but you do have brainstorms to fix it.

That being said , stating that I can accidently draw DSC doesn't mean my deck is bad, it justs means that you can't forumlate a reasonable reasoning with which to reason that my deck is bad.

Rational reasoning 4TW, because I'm just that awesome.

No, in normal oath, if you draw a creature, the rest of your creatures still kill.  With this build, if you draw DSC, you're stuck with a scrub creature oathed into play.  It definitely is a disadvantage

[Moxlotus]

Well the odds of drawing DSC or Kiki isnt that much, and in that case ya it sucks but you do have brainstorms to fix it.

That being said , stating that I can accidently draw DSC doesn't mean my deck is bad, it justs means that you can't forumlate a reasonable reasoning with which to reason that my deck is bad.

Rational reasoning 4TW, because I'm just that awesome.

I just showed you a reason why the Kiki-Jiki/DSC plan has a downside.  Reading comprehension=tech.  Please attempt to respect others (especially those who have more experience than you)--failing to do so makes you look like a complete fucking idiot.

And the odds of drawing DSC or Kiki-Jiki over the course of a game is definitely relevant, especially over the course of a tournament.  I know, I played Oath for a long time.  A creature shows up in your hand a lot.  Anybody who has ever played the deck knows that.

You have the same kill clock as with Angels (what deck in Vintage doesn't do 2 damage to itself?), only with the chance of your engine being completely useless if DSC shows up to your hand.  DSC also sucks against Welder and you Oath the big man up first you aren't going to be attacking any time soon.

Why 2 Extract?  Extract works best if you can fire it off turn 1.  It is a 4-of or a 0-of.  I would suggest a 0-of because it doesn't help you resolve oath.  Every card in the deck should help you resolve Oath or find Oath.

Please try to come off as less of a smartass know-it-all if you want any help with any of your decks.

[rBt]

Hmm I've been blablaing about cranial extractions but they aren't even in the deck...

Anyways, what you're saying Moxlotus, is that an Extirpate won't be that helpful either.

I'll post my latest Oath deck tomorrow in my thread, you might want to take a look at it, the basics of any oath deck are all the same.

[silvernail]

In most cases extripate has 3 uses : removing all copies of force of will from your opponents hand and deck after baiting them to cast one, or removing a key card in your opponents graveyard prior to yawgmoths will, or removing a vital piece of a combo deck after duressing the opponent.

Extracts are probably bad, but I just wanted to test the concept of ripping apart singleton heavy decks to make winning hard or impossible for your opponent.

Most oath decks run counters to protect your own strategy, this deck wants to vary from that path and instead use disruption to bait counters and wreck your opponent's ability to win fast should the disruption resolve.

The deck probably needs lots of work in that area, but thats the concept I hoped to try.

I understand how traditonal oath decks play, been playing them since Exodus. I like to try completely out there ideas just to see what comes of it.

So what do you people think about creating an oath deck that uses disruption strategies instead of the usual counter suite, what can be done to achieve such a deck ( regardless of if it is better or worse than counter based oath)

[Implacable]

Extirpate is a great card.  I firmly believe that it will be used in the future as a prominent piece of disruption, perhaps even at the same level as Duress and Null Rod.  However, when it is used like this, the card is unfairly marginalized due only to the bad decisions of the deck designer.  Extirpate, no matter how much people want it to be, is not some divine panacea sent to make bad decks into good ones.  It has specific uses, and specific decks that it fits into.  This deck is not one of them.

On the subject of Oath: The variant from Team ICBM is the best build of Oath out there, because they recognize the fundamental strength and weakness of Oath of Druids.  It forms a two-card combo that will kill your opponent, but it will take a total of three turns for your opponent to actually die.  Therefore, Oath decks should be built around a control shell in order to prevent them from losing before they can win.  Shoving an Oath onto the table is foolish and short-sighted; what happens after the Oath drops?  If the other guy doesn't care that the Oath resolved, what happens?  MoxLotus has been correct throughout this thread.  There is no advantage, none at all, to running Kiki + Colossus, and the shell around them is also suboptimal.  Coming up with ideas and then posting them without thinking is not, if I may, what TMD is about.

[netherspirit]

This deck may turn out to be a complete pile in the end, but it may also turn out to work; I shall hold back my own opinion on the deck as it won't add anything to the discussion.

My advice though:

Your game plan is still rather slow so you need more control elements such as Force of Will and Mana Drain; having said that, though, I love Duress and Extirpate in Oath.

You may also want to try Recoup beings you run Yawgmoth's Will.

And yes, I think Extract sucks big time; I'd replace it with permission/draw spells.

Anyway, good luck with the deck!

  netherspirit

[Harlequin]

Double Angel -- Is NOT a 2 swing kill if your opponent has not dealt themselve 2 damage

Kiki/DSC -- Is NOT at 2 swing kill if your flip Kiki-jiki first.

So right there you can ask the question:  in 50% of my games will my opponents have delt themselves 2 damage? 
In vintage I would say yes.  So that means that in more games the angels will be a turn 2 kill more often than the kiki/dsc.

With that arguement + the DSC in hand arguement.... I can't see how these creatures are in anyway superior to 2 lovely ladies.

[silvernail]

what if DSC was changed to Sky Hussar, that's a two turn win no matter which you flip first

[netherspirit]

what if DSC was changed to Sky Hussar, that's a two turn win no matter which you flip first

How is that a turn two win?

[silvernail]

not a turn two win, but a two turn win. You oath once and get one guy, then oath a second turn and win that turn.

[netherspirit]

Ooops, my bad! lol

[madmanmike25]

Ok, I have played my fair share of Oath and I have gotten sick of it.  I love it when you get the Orchard/Mox/Oath on the first turn, but each turn thereafter it gets so weak if you can't find that combo.  It's not like, say Gifts, which builds up its mana base/cards in hand and explodes on the opponent the more turns that go by.  That being said, I do offer this input:

Tinker->DSC isn't as bad maindeck as everyone thinks.  You need to realize that it's like playing with 5 Oaths in a sense.  When you factor in all the other tutors, that adds up even more.  Oath is your win card, not DSC, not the Angels.  In my builds I ran 1 DSC and one Akroma(the white one).  Ya, if I Oathed up Akroma first it was one turn slower.  I figured that the advantages of running an additional 'win' card in Tinker made it worthwhile. 

I don't buy the whole "Goblin Welder exists so never play DSC!" argument.  In that case don't run moxen because of Null Rod/Chalice @ 0 and don't run Ancestral Recall because of Misdirection......do you see where this logic can take you?

Since you are trying to be innovative with Oath and I can appreciate that(god knows oath needs it), I will reccomend a card that I toyed with for a time:  Seize the Day.  When its in your GY its cheaper and untaps DSC to swing again.  Not saying its the card that will break Oath(it wont) but it was fun to play with it and Krosan Reclamation over Blessing.  And another thing, If Angels are in play that have Vigilance, both can attack since neither have to tap.  I know I wouldn't mind tapping some angels tho...  Just something to mull over maybe.

good luck.

That being said , stating that I can accidently draw DSC doesn't mean my deck is bad, it justs means that you can't forumlate a reasonable reasoning with which to reason that my deck is bad.

Umm....huh?  Why did you cram 'reason' in there so much?

[twault]

Personally, I run 3 creatures in my build: Akroma, Spirit of the Night (or Razia), and DSC.

I think running all 3 is ideal. I'm pretty happy with whichever one that I get. It's usually always a 2-turn clock after Oath is resolved.

Most people have abandoned DSC in favor of Akroma & Razia, because of Welder, but when coupled with Tinker, it makes a hell of a backup plan when you can't find or resolve an Oath.

In a Workshop matchup, you can set Chalice to 1, and hope to play Chalice before the Welder hits.

I also run between 12-14 Counterspells...4 x FOW, 4 x Drain, 3 x Mana Leak, 1 x Misdirection, and 2 x Muddle the Mixture, which also serve as an extra tutor. This helps me deal with potential threats to my combo.

Some people run Duress, which is great, but I like having more blue spells (for counter & pitch), so I limited my build to mostly 2 colors, aside from Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Swords.

In addition, I try to run a few more basics than most other builds do.