Stax and WorkShop Aggro's answers to Empty the Warrens.

[LotusHead]

Of all the options offered, it seems like Echoing Truth and Engineered Explosives seem like the best options.

Echoing Truth is very versatile, while Explosives can be welded in if countered.  (ETW decks dont play Null Rod or Chalice...).

[yespuhyren]

I completely disagree with your choices but to each his own.  I think for Stax Slice and Dice is best.  But thats just me.

[LotusHead]

my build has 2 gemstone mines and 2 cities of brase, 2 Gilded Loti, 1 Darksteel Ingot and moxen.

I don't always have 2 colored mana lying around, but can usually count on one colored mana.  That's the main reason for my choices.

[yespuhyren]

Slice and Dice is 2R.  Its pretty affordable, and uncounterable, and castable off gilded.

[Methuselahn]

A lot of the cards suggested here are answers to Empty the Warrens.  This may be fine for some decks, decks that can protect said answers.  I've tried to deal with EtW by preventing it from happening in the first place.  Yea, this seems obvious, but to me, any other stax tactic seems inferior.  I'd rather lay down preventative measures such as mulling into 2sphere or chalices rather than relying on the topdeck (the tabernacle). 

As a Gifts player, once I had my ETW played, and my goblins out there, I've rarely lost.   I would never fear ETW hate as a counterspell playing mage.  Stax is bad at dealing with non-mana permanents, especially a horde of goblins.

All of that said, I don't mind Platinum Angel because it does protect me from a myriad of things, plus it wins.

[Gekoratel]

I've tried to deal with EtW by preventing it from happening in the first place.  Yea, this seems obvious, but to me, any other stax tactic seems inferior.  I'd rather lay down preventative measures such as mulling into 2sphere or chalices

I could see this logic working for some situations but not all of them, for example you can't stop your opponent who is on the play from making some goblins before you get a turn.  Also opponents can get around Chalice by building up a few lands, running Moxen into Chalice and then powering EtW out via Sol Ring, Mana Vault, or Rituals.  Also 2sphere isn't the best answer to EtW because paying 1 for a moxen means they are breaking even so as long as they can hit five mana they are able to cast EtW.  I think preventative answers in addition to the traditional locks is the strongest way to go.

I would never fear ETW hate as a counterspell playing mage.

Hence the reason Slice and Dice is such a popular option.

All of that said, I don't mind Platinum Angel because it does protect me from a myriad of things, plus it wins.

I personally think Plats in bad in T1 because every competitive deck can answer it and building up to 7 mana before the games is over could prove to be tricky.  I suppose Plats is better in a 7/10 style Workshop deck but I think I'd rather have Titan and try to disrupt my opponent rather than laying down an overcosted 4/4.  As a note I don't play Workshop decks but I play against them and have some friends who dabble.

[Evenpence]

Trying to prevent Empty the Warrens is like trying to retard an avalanche.

Tendrils is preventable, EtW when cast with 1 storm copy for 4 goblins is practically game over to a deck based on permanent advantage.

3R and 1 storm copy is easy to accomplish, even against Sphere of Resistance and other powerful cards that restrict it's effectiveness.

You have to play reactively to it, which makes the deck (which is almost entirely proactive) infinitely weaker.  The card is amazing against Stax.

Also, Slice and Dice (as mentioned above) is also my favorite answer.

[Implacable]

Trying to prevent Empty the Warrens is like trying to retard an avalanche.

Tendrils is preventable, EtW when cast with 1 storm copy for 4 goblins is practically game over to a deck based on permanent advantage.

3R and 1 storm copy is easy to accomplish, even against Sphere of Resistance and other powerful cards that restrict it's effectiveness.

You have to play reactively to it, which makes the deck (which is almost entirely proactive) infinitely weaker.  The card is amazing against Stax.

Also, Slice and Dice (as mentioned above) is also my favorite answer.

I absolutely agree with this post.  As a Gifts player, I just don't see my Stax opponent ever being able to prevent me from a mini-Warrens.  As such, answers must be included in the sideboard, and Slice & Dice/Tabernacle are the best options.

As a side note, Colby's quote is going in my signature.

[Methuselahn]

Okay, so a Workshop pilot's best answer to ETW is to choose a different deck.

[yespuhyren]

Only if they can't handle the pressure of warrens.  I've been winning pretty consistantly right now.  I'm not switchin up any time soon.

[Evenpence]

Okay, so a Workshop pilot's best answer to ETW is to choose a different deck.

That's what I've done.  Slice and Dice is a good option too though, I just don't like how EtW both makes me play reactively as well as making me take up sideboard slots.

I dislike it so much, in fact, that I chose to play another deck.  At least until the EtW buzz chills out, which doesn't seem to be happening.

[Implacable]

Okay, so a Workshop pilot's best answer to ETW is to choose a different deck.

That's what I've done.  Slice and Dice is a good option too though, I just don't like how EtW both makes me play reactively as well as making me take up sideboard slots.

I dislike it so much, in fact, that I chose to play another deck.  At least until the EtW buzz chills out, which doesn't seem to be happening.

I don't see it ever really 'chilling out'.  EtW will always be very good against Fish, and even a single copy in the board is helpful for post-board threat diversification in Gifts against decks like Bomberman.

[LotusHead]

I don't see ETW going away anytime soon, hence the thread.

I am pretty scared of 11/11 Tramplers, Storm 10 Tendrils orETW at any count above 2.

Thanks for all arguements/suggestions for all these options.

[madmanmike25]

I still think Powder Keg, or even Engineered Explosives work better.  They are *uncounterable with Goblin Welder active, or reusable later on.  Not to mention they get rid of other permanents, and from my experience that's a good thing from the Stax player's perspective.  Plus, EE can do funny things in 5c Stax.  Just depends if you run Rod or not.

[vroman]

Im going to test volcanic spray. slice and dice is an excellent answer but has no synergy w bazaar, and 2 mana is much easier than 3. plus v-spray stops ichorid for 2 turns, rather than 1 turn+card draw w slice+dice

[forests failed you]

I know that this card is probably extremely narrow, but I thought I would suggest it anyways. 

Bloodfire Dwarf.  R

Creature -Dwarf;  1/1

R: Sacrifice Bloodfire Dwarf:  Do 1 Damage to each creature without flying.

It kills all of their empty tokens.  It kills Kataki.  It kills opposing Welders and Shamans.  And it can attack for one. 

Just thought I'd toss that hat into the ring.

[yespuhyren]

plus v-spray stops ichorid for 2 turns

Not unless you are merely talking about picking off nether shadows and/or ghouls.  V-spray is a sorcery so its not killing any Ichorids or stopping any dread returns.

[matthewCURBSTOMP]

I know that this card is probably extremely narrow, but I thought I would suggest it anyways. 

Bloodfire Dwarf.  R

Creature -Dwarf;  1/1

R: Sacrifice Bloodfire Dwarf:  Do 1 Damage to each creature without flying.

It kills all of their empty tokens.  It kills Kataki.  It kills opposing Welders and Shamans.  And it can attack for one. 

Don't forget, it dodges Duress also.

[vroman]

plus v-spray stops ichorid for 2 turns

Not unless you are merely talking about picking off nether shadows and/or ghouls.  V-spray is a sorcery so its not killing any Ichorids or stopping any dread returns.

good point. I misread it as instant. back to slice+dice

[yespuhyren]

Yeah,  I'm probably playing 3-4 in SB.  Slice.

[LotusHead]

Other than the fact that Slice and Dice is probably optimal in a Mono-Red (uba)Stax list, what are your thoughts on Engineered Explosives as an answer to ETW in 5 color builds?

Explosives can be set at many levels due to Shops/Wastes, etc.  ETW goblins don't have haste (Time Walk means Gifts.pwn players are probably winning).

My particular build has Leyline of the Void to deal with Ichorid (and I SIDE IN Spheres to deal with Ancient Grudge/Ray of Revalation and friends games 2 and 3)

ETW packing decks don't usually play Null Rod or Chalice of the Void, but they pack a lot of countermagic.

Explosives can be welded in (or just hardcast and activated if opponent can't counter it.

Am I missing something in the Explosives option for 5c Shop decks?

[yespuhyren]

The only reason we like Slice so much is it is purely uncounterable.  If your opponent has a counter, you are relying on yourself having a welder as well, and most opponents will counter welders.  If you snuck in a welder, its great.  If not, you are in trouble.  If it is too soon for a welder, then you are also screwed.

[madmanmike25]

Yeah, I suggested EE several posts up, and someone else suggested it before that.  Seems great in 5c Stax.

But now that I think about it more, I will just SB in 3 Tabernacle.

Slice and Dice can be duressed.
Keg/EE can be countered(you lose if no active welder)
Tabernacle can be....played. 

1.  It's another permanent.
2.  It's uncounterable
3.  You already run 4 Crucible.
4.  You can play it before EtW, meaning no crazy Time Walk tricks to win the same turn.
5.  It ties up their mana (hmm, is that good for the stax player )

Last I checked there is no bounce they run that also targets lands(bring back Boomerang!).  And I don't think any build that runs EtW runs Wasteland.  Plus it's from Legends.

So it appears that Tabernacle is the most solid/reliable answer.  Thoughts?

[Darkenslight]

For Stax, there's a portal card that costs :

Scorching Winds.

Basically it's a Tremor that you can only play in the declare attackers step.

Also, there's Wail of the Nim from Mirrodin; which can also allow you to Regen your creatures; the problem is that it costs to do so.

[yespuhyren]

My current SB for Ubastax has

3x Slice
2x Tabernacle

[djarum]

There's a major problem with Slice and Dice:  an opponent can name S+D with Pithing Needle and shut down the cycling ability.  Since it's impossible to hard cast, it would be relatively easy for Gifts to drop a Needle before going off with Empty the Warrens.  Most Gifts' decks already play 1 Needle main and more in the side.  If S+D becomes a common tech (i.e., Stax plays 4 side), Gifts could simply play more Needles main, thus giving it an effectively unstoppable win condition. 

Because of this, Tabernacle strikes me as the only hate immune to Gifts' answers.

[vroman]

I agree. Ive run into this online. It seems gifts players who emphasize EtW strategy, are playing more needles now.
Tabernacle is the only guaranteed plan.

[yespuhyren]

Problem is they only need 3-4 lands to keep 3-4 tokens alive.  Thats more than enough to beat stax a lot of the time.  Warrens is ridiculous.

[madmanmike25]

There's a major problem with Slice and Dice:  an opponent can name S+D with Pithing Needle and shut down the cycling ability. 

Good call, I forgot about Needle. 

Problem is they only need 3-4 lands to keep 3-4 tokens alive. Thats more than enough to beat stax a lot of the time. Warrens is ridiculous.

Depends on what else you have in play naturally.  Smokestack can be ramped to either kill tokens or lands/sources that keep tokens alive.  Null Rod shuts off moxen that pay upkeep costs.  Winter Orb shuts off lands that pay upkeep costs.   I'm pretty sure none of those cards are horrible in Workshop decks.  It's just a matter of what particular build you are using and how much you die to EtW tokens.  But I'm pretty sure you opt for Cap's over Smokeys.   
I love random wins, but Cap's do nothing to the current game state and won't let you play with Null Rod.

How much hate is too much for EtW?

[parallax]

Tabernacle is useless against the Ichorids themselves, although it can be a passable answer to Dread Returned non-hasty fatties if the Ichorid player has no mana (which is likely in some versions).