New web-based online Magic program

[boggyb]

I've used MWS and Apprentice like the rest of you, and, like the rest of you, have noticed several key problems with both programs:

1) Apprentice is pretty buggy, ugly, and old
2) They're only available on windows!
3) To find people to play against, you have to go through third party means (e.g. IRC)

So I've decided to make a web-based magic playing environment, with the chat functionality built right in! Kind of like Yahoo games, but for magic. You can just log in, join a chat room, find someone to play, and start right in. Because it's web-based, you'll be able to use it with any operating system, and you can even store and share your decks on the site. You'll be able to play from any location. I might include some forums feature too, but I think the chat will compensate for this (and besides, we already have themanadrain (: ).

I'd like this to be sort of a community-based project - that is, I'll ask for beta testers from the community, will respond to community feedback about the site design, etc.

I have a few questions for you guys:

1) Would you use this? That is, would you use it instead of MWS or Apprentice? It'll be just as good looking, I promise (:
2) What are some gripes you have with Apprentice and MWS, aside from what I've already said?
3) What are some features you'd like to see on the site?
4) Do you like the way Apprentice doesn't enforce any rules? Or would you prefer a program that enforces the rules a bit.

Anyway, this is all very preliminary. I've just finished writing the server-side code now, and there's a lot more to go. Don't expect anything usable for six or nine months at least. I'm just gauging interest and trying to solidify the important design decisions. You can email me at mbrotzma@andrew.cmu.edu if you have any comments.

[Cross]

3) To find people to play against, you have to go through third party means (e.g. IRC)

This isn't true, workstation has their own servers.

Not saying this isn't a good idea though, as MWS has a ton of problems associated with it.

[Roxas]

Eh, the biggest problem I've had with MWS (outside of the fact that many people are stupid and terrible, which will be the case in any online game) was the instability of the servers. If you can more or less emulate the functionality of MWS, that should be more than good enough. Some various interface suggestions, though:

- Many don't know about the shift-drag from library onto table to play cards face-down from the library feature (for the purposes of Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, etc.). Being able to right-click on a card in your library and click on a "Play this card face-down" would be handy.

- A "notepad" on the side of the screen where you can type information only you can see would be useful. Yes, I realize that you can just open up notepad and type stuff there, but it'd be easier if you didn't have to switch windows.

- The ability to right-click on a card and select "get ruling" would be useful for solving rules disputes. Actually, something like the functionality of Datatog in IRC would be even better - being able to type in !Datatog what is Ancestral Recall, !Datatog rule Flashback, and so forth has been extremely convenient in IRC, and I'd imagine it'd be helpful here too.

- The ability to zoom in and out of the table would be nice (sort of like the way MODO does, except user-controlled rather than automatic). Most games, a very small fraction of the area available in MWS is actually used, and so it'd be nice if the cards could be bigger instead.

- Making the play area look like the Pro Tour "red zone" playmats would be nice; surely, it'd be more interesting than some abstract pattern, at least. I'd lean against having custom designs here, because some of the ones people use on MWSPlay are just obnoxious and I'd like to avoid those.

That's all I can come up with for now. I'll add more later if I can think of anything else.

[boggyb]

....

These are great comments, and I appreciate them. It appears, however, that your issues with MWS are slight. Would it be worth it to make this online service? Would you use it over MWS?

[nataz]

1) Apprentice is pretty buggy, ugly, and old
2) They're only available on windows!
3) To find people to play against, you have to go through third party means (e.g. IRC)

1) Not many people seem to use apprentice anymore. Truthfully, I find MWS a much better program for testing.
2) Don't care because I own a PC (and if the numbers are still true, that applies to most people)
3) MWS has servers set up already that work find when they are up. This means if you are behind a firewall/router (and many people are) you can just meet up there.

The real downside is that the servers are unstable, often kicking you out of the game when they crash. What I really would like is a nice stable server to runs games off. MWS provides the software (for a while someone on TMD had one up), we just need a good host.

[andrewpate]

I would like it if a failed connection didn't close out the whole program like how MWS does.  A better direct-connection system would be better, too.  It is basically impossible to direct dial MWS without Hamachi.

[The Atog Lord]

Please implement a better random shuffler. And don't have a delayed response from shuffling on MWS. These are both issues that could be dealt with in a week, and would make MWS tenfold better.

Also, on a deeper level, the pointer-based errors are just bad.

[Vegeta2711]

Fix the shuffler on MWS and that'd be enough.

[UR]

1) Would you use this? That is, would you use it instead of MWS or Apprentice? It'll be just as good looking, I promise (:
2) What are some gripes you have with Apprentice and MWS, aside from what I've already said?
3) What are some features you'd like to see on the site?
4) Do you like the way Apprentice doesn't enforce any rules? Or would you prefer a program that enforces the rules a bit.

1. Yes, at least I'll test it and see if I like it.
2. I use Apprentice primarily to practice Sealed deck skills but the problem is that they use randomly generated boosters from Gatherer. The fact that the print-runs don't match exactly has never been an issue for me, but lately with TS-block the rares and purple cards aren't there. That is actually my primary issue with the program right now.
4. No! I love the funnies in this forum and over on SCG they cheer me up when I'm working

[IndyTerminator]

There is Mindless Automaton for use on Linux. But it doesn't look like anyone has done anything with it lately. Just to debunk that someone said there were only Magic programs for Windows. Unfortunately, it seems to only be compatible with Apprentice and itself.

http://mindless.sourceforge.net/

[Crankster]

I might be able to host a real MWS server, I have basicly unlimited bandwidth and a server standing unused. (A HP proliand DL380 incase you care) I could possibly test-run it later this week, pending workload.

[nataz]

Fix the shuffler on MWS and that'd be enough.

yea, good point

[boggyb]

what's wrong with the mws shuffler?

also, about the "finding games" thing - I misspoke, you obviously can find games through MWS (assuming the servers are up), but you can't chat with people. Is the chat worthwhile?

[Roxas]

A chat feature probably wouldn't be necessary, as there's already the IRC channel for that.

As far as the MWS shuffler: nobody seems to be able to point out exactly what's wrong, but situations such as repeated unlikely opening hands (for example, I draw hands with only one mana source FAR more frequently than is actually probable when playing Tron decks with twenty-nine mana sources) and seeing the same restricted one-of in the opening hand for several consecutive games happen far more often than they should.

[nataz]

Somthing about it being based on a 40 card deck.

[wethepeople]

Someone should create a Host here, that would be used primarily by TMD'ers. It would avoid the random MWS scrub appearance, and make testing much more smooth. I am pretty sure I am sick of playing Llanowar Elf.dec

[Anusien]

Not enough people would use a host here to make it worthwhile; there would be like 3 people on it at a time.

As I understand it, the guy who wrote the MWS shuffle misread Knuth's algorithm and let any card swap with any card, not just the ones already seen (or is it not seen, I don't remember).  In other words, provably not even distribution is equally likely to occur.  There's a thread on it at mwsgames.com somewhere.


Anyway, what's the point of this new program?  Is the MWS shuffler so bad that you feel the need to write several thousand lines of code?

By the way, rules enforcement is basically impossible.  It would increase the size of the program exponentially; you'd be looking at rewriting the Magic Online play interface, having to program what each and every card does.  Good.  Luck.

[andrewpate]

The small amount of rules enforcement MWS already does, mainly putting cards into play tapped, is probably enough.  If there's like one other key rule you'd like to add, go ahead, but as Anusien says, every rule you add is a lot of work.

[jro]

GCCG has compilations for Windows, Linux, and OS X.  It doesn't need to be "installed" on the host system, so you can run it from a thumb drive or whatever if you want portability (although installing all the card images on the thumb drive would eat up lots of space).

[boggyb]

Anyway, what's the point of this new program?  Is the MWS shuffler so bad that you feel the need to write several thousand lines of code?

By the way, rules enforcement is basically impossible.  It would increase the size of the program exponentially; you'd be looking at rewriting the Magic Online play interface, having to program what each and every card does.  Good.  Luck.

Obviously I wouldn't make such a complicated program to fix just a few bugs in MWS. A web interface is much nicer in general - it's cross platform, accessible anywhere, harder to take advantage of (security-wise), more easily extendible, and has the advantage of putting everyone on the same software version by default. It's also easier to manage users' behavior and weed out the trolls, making playing more fun for everyone. Having a common website, interface, graphic design, and identity generates community and feelings of comradery. I was just gauging interest; I likely won't do it now.

As far as your point about "rules enforcement is basically impossible" - no, it really isn't, especially if you're not so rigorous about it. Even a pretty high level of rigor wouldn't be all that difficult to do, it would just be tedious and uninteresting, and likely not worth it.

But looks like I won't go through with the project after all, especially without researching the available tools (I had no idea about gccg, for example).

[netherspirit]

1) Would you use this? That is, would you use it instead of MWS or Apprentice? It'll be just as good looking, I promise (:
2) What are some gripes you have with Apprentice and MWS, aside from what I've already said?
3) What are some features you'd like to see on the site?
4) Do you like the way Apprentice doesn't enforce any rules? Or would you prefer a program that enforces the rules a bit.

1) As long as it's free.
2) The shuffler on MWS sucks!
3) Cards that don't untap as normal automatically should not untap as normal, rather than having to right click them and such. I'd also quite like a way to do multiplayer matches if possible.
4) A program that enforces rules is much better.

  netherspirit

[Harlequin]

In addition to all that other stuff.   I think there ought to be additional functionality in cards on top of your deck.  In addition to the suggestions for improving Vamp tutor there should be some sort of "Reveal cards until..." options.  Spesifically:

Dredge
Oath
Belch

You've got to love when the oath player forgets that he sided out the other creature, and we oath a 48 card deck one card at a time -_-

/petpeive

[Illissius]

I like the idea, and have been considering trying my hand at a Magic program myself, for some time. (With Qt and either C++ or Ruby, for those who care). What kept me back was -- how are the legal issues about this? Writing an application and then not being allowed to distribute it would suck donkey parts, and I don't feel like dumbing it down to support other CCGs (a la MWS) just to give me legal cover.

I'm notably in Hungary, but this doesn't alleviate my general ignorance surrounding these legal issues any. (Makes it worse, in fact -- at least you read a lot in the media about copyright cases in the US, so one has some semblance of how it works, along with the concrete information that most Magic programs tried thus far have turned out to be illegal).

[vroman]

Ive noticed on MWS a trend when rolling d20s, the 2nd player's roll being exactly one higher or one lower than the 1st player's roll, more often than the 10% of the time this should occur.
also, mulliganing via just hitting ctrl+m after seeing your hand, tends to give you similar hand to what you just saw. I always put all my cards back on my library, hit shuffle 3 times, then manually draw out the next hand.
I havnt kept any stats, so these are just anecdotal impressions, but Im convinced they are true.