[Deck Discussion] Belcher is back?

[madmanmike25]

I decided to take a small break from Workshop based decks for a bit and focus on Combo.  Ok, before I give you the decklist let me say a few things about why I am trying to resurrect a *dead* deck.  This is based on one thing:

Fact #1
At one time 2 land Belcher was a Viable deck.

Let me also pre-address the argument about not playing this deck at all.  Why play this over Grim Long??????  Probably better if you ask Dragon/Slaver/Tog players this question.  My personal reason is that I don't want Vintage to slump into 3 decks:  GiftsUngiven Variants,  GrimLong Variants, and Stax Variants.  No offense to Fish/Ichy/other decks, but those 3 are the ones that more consistenly top 8.

That being said, what cards *killed* the deck?  Lets examine the hate for Belcher decks.  There are many, but I will call out the main ones.

1.  Trinisphere:  A moot point post restriction.  And a first turn Trini kills most decks.
2.  Force of Will:  Hardly, FoW has been played in almost every Blue based deck.
3.  Null Rod:  Yeah, this one hurts.  No moxen, no activating Belcher.
4.  Sphere of Resistance:  Again, ouch.  But only slows you down unless a lock comes down
5.  Chalice of the Void:  Ding, Ding, Ding!  I think we have a winner.

Chalice is unrestriced, usually played as a 4-of, and very easy to cast @ 1 (@0 its free)

I have tested and tested and found out that Chalice @ 1 kicks Belcher/Combo square in the nutz.  Chalice @ 0 is a very close second.  Previous builds had maindeck Goblin Welders to weld in a countered Belcher.  But Chalice @ 1 stops that, and even if Welder comes down BEFORE, you have to hope your opponent will misplay and put an artifact in his GY so you can weld out his Chalice.  I wouldn't hold my breath for that one.

Fact #2(more of a stong opinion)
Ballz to the wall combo won't cut it in Vintage.

 I'm talking about decks that try to go all out first turn with no disruption or resilience.  You don't always get to go first, and FoW/Chalice can put a damper on things. 

Here is what prompted me to build this out:  I thought it would be cool to play Belcher with 8 Spirit Guides and 8 Chromatic Spheres/Stars.  Lets see what I came up with:


*Free* mana: 23
4 ESG
4 SSG
5 moxen
1 Black lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island(used to be Taiga)

Acceleration:9
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
2 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual

The Spells: 17
3 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
0 Yawgmoths Bargain (couldn't cast often enough)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Time Twister
1 Memory Jar
1 Channel

Win:6
3 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens(was Tendrils)

Resilience:5
2 Xantid Swarm(you can mix Goblin Welder/Xantid depending on meta)
2 Goblin Welder
1 Living Wish

RESILIENCE:
It's a fast deck that can win first turn, but also can survive against some hate.  Most decks these days run counterspells, just take a look at the decklists from major tournaments to prove that.  That is why I feel that Xantid is better than Goblin Welder maindeck.  Do not just think your opponent will counter your Belcher, I have had Dark Rituals, Draw7's, any gas, countered to put me dead in the water.  Combo isn't meant to go in topdeck mode.

Since I brought up Chalice, let me say that I have found that Ancient Grudge is the Double Bitch Slap that Chalice deserves.  It's never dead either as EVERY deck runs an artifact.  Easy enough to cast with 8 Spirit Guides.  I have found that 3 have been appropriate.  That makes 6 cards which isn't a lot, but Combo doesn't want too many answers.  If more answers were put in, even I would tell you to go play Gifts instead.

Channel:  Super broken in this deck with 8 Chromatics.  It's broken by itself as well (hence restriction).

The bombs: Tinker, Windfall, Twister, Wheel, YawgWin, etc. etc.  It's a combo deck.  My business spells are Blue and Black(and one R in Wheel).  Tinker finds Jar, Belcher, or Lotus(to get BBB mana).  Thats why I put in Tropical over the Taiga as I found it was always random what land popped up during a Belch and I usually needed U mana over R.  Even with it being a Mountain, sometimes you just reveal it too soon.

Vamp Tutor: Insano with 2 Chromatics on the table, you get that card NOW.

Yawg's Bargain:  Love/Hate.  All the way.  I consider it to be a win condition because IF it comes down that's all she wrote.  Half the time I can't cast it though, so I'm wondering about its inclusion.  Don't chastise me yet, it's still in there for now.

Cards I considered:
LED:  It was ALWAYS in my hand when I needed to cast something.  It's main use is to activate Belcher, its kinda crappy other than that.  Just a personal thing I guess.

Living Wish:  Seems great.  Welder, City of Brass, Tolarian, City of Traitors, the list for SB cards is pretty good.  I just might cut one of my Resilience cards for it, I dunno.

Rite of Flame:  I think they might have a place in Belcher but as a 4 of.  Right now I have 2 Tinderwalls since G mana is more prevalent.  I tried these in the other Belcher builds and they were ok, but I prefer the Bombs and running less win conditions.

Necropotence:  Not unless 2 Cabal Rituals are included.  It is a possibility though.  I would hate to cut my 2 Tinders though as they help cast the much needed Ancient Grudge.  It's kind of opposite of Yawg Bargain in the sense that one gets worse the later you see it, while the other gets much better.



On the 3 win conditions:  I think that's kinda what makes combo...combo.  You want to draw into them, not always see them in your opening 7.  I tried 2 different versions of Belcher (both with 8 Spirit Guides).  One had 5 win conditions, the other had 8 (4 Belcher/1 EtW; and 4 Belcher/4 Etw).  I found myself mulling too much, or not always having enough gas.  Don't get me wrong, the possibilty to go off turn 1 IS there, but they often crap out.


The reason I swapped EtW for Tendrils was 2 fold:  Easier to cast with R than BB;  Can win with less storm count(very important).  Another reason is that so far few decks run MAINDECK hate for EtW and it really does hurt Stax (as a Stax player for life, I tested it)

Some tips:  I put Welders in the SB for Stax/Shop matchups and they help.  A lot.  They obviously take the place of Xantids.
If you win with Belcher, leave in EtW.  If EtW wins the game, Tendrils is easily subbed in and was in the deck previously.
I also put the Taiga in the SB for Trop so I can cast Grudge even easier.

Ok, remember all, it is a combo deck and you might, just maybe have to mull every once in a while.  I honestly found this version mulled less and would appreciate your help to optimize this build.  It takes a certain mentality to play combo I have discovered.  Ha, personally I have never shuffled a deck so much in all my years of playing MTG.  And BtW, I'm not all that impressed with the new 'official' MTG sleeves, I prefer more of a gap at the top so the card goes down further and is more protected against dirt, and the corners still bend a bit and mess up shuffling.

Thanks for reading, hope my first attempt at Combo from Workshop decks wasn't too terrible.

Mike


*EDIT.  Updated the list I am currently using.  Note the addition of Living Wish for a partial Wish SB.  Grudge's are still great in the SB vs Stax/Chalice.

[OfficeShredder]

Three win conditions?  We have another thread about belcher, most people were pushing 6-8 maindeck.

8x star/sphere seems excessive

Do not just think your opponent will counter your Belcher, I have had Dark Rituals, Draw7's, any gas, countered to put me dead in the water.  Combo isn't meant to go in topdeck mode.

So why do make topdeck mode even worse than it was before?  I find with 3x belcher, 3x ETW, you at least have a fair chance of throwing down some tokens, randomly winning with belcher, or picking up another draw spell in the next 2-3 turns.  On the other hand, you have no duresses, so you don't have a bat's chance in hell of surviving those turns I guess

[madmanmike25]

So why do make topdeck mode even worse than it was before?  I find with 3x belcher, 3x ETW, you at least have a fair chance of throwing down some tokens, randomly winning with belcher, or picking up another draw spell in the next 2-3 turns.  On the other hand, you have no duresses, so you don't have a bat's chance in hell of surviving those turns I guess

On the 3 win conditions:  I think that's kinda what makes combo...combo.  You want to draw into them, not always see them in your opening 7.  I tried 2 different versions of Belcher (both with 8 Spirit Guides).  One had 5 win conditions, the other had 8 (4 Belcher/1 EtW; and 4 Belcher/4 Etw).  I found myself mulling too much, or not always having enough gas.  Don't get me wrong, the possibilty to go off turn 1 IS there, but they often crap out.

I'm not trying to make topdeck mode worse, you kinda missed the point.  I'm trying to PREVENT topdeck mode as much as possible.  Chalice/Fow puts that deck more in topmode than this one.

And I DID test that deck and sometimes I had a hard enough time casting Dark Ritual with only 4 stars, let alone Duress.

So far I prefer more bombs than win conditions as you have to have 7 mana to activate Belcher right now.  More bombs help you get that.  From my testing I found that even if you get a Draw 7 with ZERO extra mana floating, you still just upped your storm count.  Obviously the more mana floating before resolving a Draw 7 highly increases the odds of winning with those next 7 cards.

You may be right about the 8 spheres, that's just how I started the list.  I'm not vehemently opposed to cutting one, possibly 2.  But as I said, it makes Vamp awesome, gets you that needed B/U mana to cast your bombs and win, makes Channel insane, and draws a card to boot.

I will try reducing a Chrome sphere and adding an extra EtW and see where that gets me.

Thank you for your input.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I guess I just don't see why win conditions aren't bombs.  Why risk drawing garbage off a Draw-7 when you could play an actual threat like Belcher, EtW, or Tendrils that you already had in your hand?  Even the earliest successful Belcher lists had 4 maindeck Belcher, and most had a Tendrils in addition to that.  This is simply because if you have seven mana in your opening hand and Belcher, as long as your opponent doesn't have Force (a slightly less than 40% chance) you win.

And your answer to color inconsistency and not being able to cast Dark Ritual and Duress was to add a fourth color and try to fix that by adding four more color fixers that are wrecked by Null Rod.

Belcher from Feb. 2004
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=15329.0

Justin Droba's Belcher from 2005
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=24588.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=24633.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=25463.0

The format has sped up since 2005, no doubt.  Xantid Swarm is slow because hate like Duress goes around it and because combo can win in the extra turn it gives them.  Ancient Grudge is slow because it uses two of your mana when you should just be winning before Needle/Rod or going around them with free mana and Empty the Warrens.

Alternate kills like Empty the Warrens and free, uncounterable mana like Simian Spirit Guide are great tools for Belcher, but they and the deck have to be built around each other, not thrown together.  I'm not suggesting your list is bad, I'm suggesting to all of us working on Belcher (including myself--just going through the old reports and threads taught me a lot, and I've just been skimming) back up and work from where the deck has succeeded, rather than ignoring development that's been done for us.

I think years of testing has shown that Belcher is better when it's limited to three colors.

[zeus-online]

You shoudl try out Seething song, its been pretty good to me...Oh and we also tried unmask which could at times be alot better then xantids, duress etc....The main problem we always ran into was counter land grant, and then watch the belcher player go into topdeck mode, unmask helped alot here, although its obviosly not as good as duress if you got black mana on the board.

/Zeus

[Moxlotus]

You know what avoids topdeck mode if your Belcher got countered?  Welder.  There is no reason Welder should not be a 4-of in the maindeck.  I've never even sided Welder out against anything--it is always decent to amazing.  Welder is amazing against Stax and Drain.dec. 

Blue is terrible.  Trops were cut by pretty much everybody a while ago for a reason.  Red is so much better.  I"d rather have Welder, color consistancy, and being able to only Belcher for 10 cards than random draw 7s.  You should be granting out Bayou first 90% of the time anyways.

And people severly underestimate Chromatic Star recursion with Welders.  You won't win turn 1-2 every game.  Your opponent will usually blow his hand stopping you from doing so.  You both sit there for a few turns only you get to draw an extra card each turn.  That situation happens a lot.

5.  Chalice of the Void:  Ding, Ding, Ding!  I think we have a winner.
 

WTF mate?  Chalice is a speedbump.  You have 0cc, 1cc, Land Grants and Spirit Guides for mana.  You just have to wait till you find the right piece of acceleration.  I'm happier to see a Chalice at any number than a Rod or even a SoR.  Rod is obv a kick in the crotch, and SoR completely shuts down Land Grant and all Moxen until you find a Spirit Guide.

The severe lack of any wish is disturbing.  Wishes are insane utility for the deck.  Remember, the deck doesn't always get the absolute nut draw and your opponent has no disruption.  And if anybody says "you should be winning, not casting Wishes," then they have not played the deck correctly.  You don't always just win.  You can't play 8 Belchers (get to that in a minute).  Sometimes your Belcher gets countered or it gets through but it was on 1 time sources.  Wishing for a land is awesome.  If you have a Welder in play, Wishing for Bazaar is amazing.

I tried these in the other Belcher builds and they were ok, but I prefer the Bombs and running less win conditions.
 

Why wouldn't you rather be casting a Belcher instead of playing a Draw 7 to find a Belcher?

Sorry, but not playing 4 Belchers is just begging to lose.  The entire point is to get a Belcher on turn 1 and activate.  How the hell does that happen when you don't have 4???  I'd play 8 if I could.  In opening hand (and always) Belcher>any draw 7.

[MaxxMatt]

With the new SSG you can try to build a GR version, eventually adding few black cards, only if you need them ( I play without black ).

two colors belcher means:
-- a single taiga.
-- more resilience to hate
-- welders and swarms as defences.
-- belchers and EtW for winners
-- possibly 8 red rituals too but 8 accelerants that are not affected by CotVs and Spheres
-- a couple of maindeck answers for bouncers and needles ( naturalize or oxidize or ancientgrude )
-- a couple of living wish for tools/utilities

(35/38)
13 artifact mana
4 ESG
4 SSG
4 Tinder Wall
4/6 Red Rituals
4 land grant
1 channel
1 taiga

(7)
4 Belchers
3 EtW

(7)
4 welders
3 Swarm

(9)
4 Chromatic star
2 chromatic sphere
1 wheel of fortune
1 wheel of fate ( possible swarm#4 )
1 Memory Jar

1/2 living wish or oxidize

this is a good starting skeleton for my Bicolor Belcher Version
I tried it and it is far more interesting than the one with black, becuause I can both chin spells and win with EtW or put a quick Belcher and win with it.
some cards are added as tutor substitues ( draw7 and more winners ). when you don't need to fetch for black, without losing raw power and flexibility, you are playing a DIFFERENT but sTrONG new deck

Maxx

[Jank Golem]

Which red rituals are you talking about? There is Seething Song, Desperate Ritual and Rite of Flame. Which rituals would you run in a R/G build?

[lordarcanis]

Have you tried Locket of Yesterdays yet?  It really is pretty amazing to use it to make your Seething Songs cheaper (and if you don't run Seething Song, you should consider it partially because of this combo).  Also, if someone counters your belcher the second will just be cheaper.  That combined with Xanitd Swarm could help you win even through the control of Slaver and Gifts (which seem like your worst matchups).  I didn't used to be a fan of that card, but a guy I know has a pretty solid build and he uses it, so I would at least give it a try.

[MaxxMatt]

I try to articulate a bit more on my previous thoughts about possible evolutions of this deck.

IMHO, Black coud be added, not primarily because for Rituals, not for Duress, but for Demonic, Vampiric, Y.Will.
If you can play the RG-version, being able not to miss at them, then, you would be safe and you will not come back to old 3 or 4 colors versions.

I present now the list I previously write some lines above here but with more hints and explanations and some minor but more effective changes.


GRrrr-Belcher!!!

Mana - (37)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Shaman Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land grant
3 Seething Song
1 Taiga
1 Channel
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chorme Mox

(7)
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens

(9)
4 Goblin Welders
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Shattering Spree

(7)
4 Chromatic Star
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Memory Jar

Side - (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Spree
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Metagame Slot


I can trace a couple of guide lines to follow when playing this version.

37 mana mean you have, perhaps, more mana than needed every game. But it is needed to start chaining spells and rising up both Storm Count and Mana Count.
When you have mana in pool your opponent should start to fear both Belcher and EtW.
This deck can play tricky games due to this duality. 7 Winners ( or 4 strong but hateble ones and 3 nearly uncounterable real threats ) are enough to guarantee you a lot of subtle plays, especially if you pair them with your active/proactive answers. Welders & Swarms are the perfect complementary elements for both Belcher or EtW. The first ones, help you cheat on opponents' counters or needles, the second ones can help you trade themselves with counterspells or let you win through them.

When you run out of gas, additional draw7s and chromatic stars would help you recover and maybe enable additional 1/1 races with Goblin Tokens.
While opponents can try to race your speed, this version of Belcher.dec is far more LESS hatable than the previous ones.
You can smile at Spheres and Chalices because of your own 8-spirits and because of ShatteringSpree. Even playing against full sets of Needles or Rods or other hate spells could not interfere with your game in a decent way. Draw7s would enable opponents' artifacts switches and when needed, you can play ShatteringSpree to selectively kill opponents' artifacts with ease. A lot of red mana is produced by this deck. Red becomes primarily color and you can be safe even with a strange monoredhand, because of Belcher and EtW.

There are really few game situations during which, both your defensive or aggressive spells would prevent you from winning, because of opponents interactions.
While more than 50% of the deck is mana, the remaining parts can be considered actual threats. High density threats, quickness of the race and instants wins are key factor that would convince me about being able to circumvent opponent's hate with ease.

8 Spirits addition enable the Stacks matchup too.

Green support your defences really well against control ( Xantid ) but if you feel better playing Black instead of Green, you can add another land ( Bayou ) switch Tinder Walls with DarkRituals and add other broken black spells, changing this deck into a BR-deck instead of playing it GR. I can't guarantee you nothing about BR.version at all ( lack of real life tests ) but, in my mind, being able to play the same number of broken defences ( swap Xantid for Duresses ) but adding other good black spells would be equally good. You, indeed, lose Channel, but, IMHO, the trade would be satisfing enough too.




BerlcheR.dec

Mana - (35)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Shaman Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land grant
1 Desperate Ritual
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chorme Mox

(7)
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens

(9)
4 Goblin Welders
3 Duress
2 Shattering Spree

(9)
4 Chromatic Star
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Memory Jar

Side - (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Spree
1 Duress
4 Metagame Slot


Enjoy!
Maxx

[GrandpaBelcher]

From the other thread on Belcher, I played this list on Sunday.

4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Tinder Wall
4x Land Grant
3x Seething Song
4x Chromatic Star

3x Goblin Welder
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
2x Living Wish

1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Channel
1x Chrome Mox
1x Black Lotus
5x Moxen
1x Taiga

Sideboard
4x Xantid Swarm
1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Mishra's Workshop
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Tin Street Hooligan
1x Uktabi Orangutan
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Shattering Spree
1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Goblin Welder
1x Taiga

It's pretty good.  Really reliable.  I have a small tournament report over there, which you can see how it performed.  I don't really want to copy and paste that all over here, but I think this list (very similar to MaxxMatt's first list but developed independently) is really close to being perfect.

Maindeck REBs are a house against Force of Will and Echoing Truth, and with Simian Spirit Guide they're like Red Force of Will.  If I was still running three colors and using black, Duress might still be in, but REB feels just as good.

Living Wish is awesome.  Better even than it was in previous lists because it's so much easier to play.

Goblin Welders should all be maindecked.

Xantid Swarms are really slow.  I feel like I'd rather throw a win condition out there to get countered than wait another turn.  You definitely don't want them maindecked because there are so many decks that wouldn't care.

[BreathWeapon]

Chromatic Sphere seems pointless in a 2c deck, and Tinder Wall is terrible; passing the turn for an additional R is a Time Walk, and not being able to chain multiples is cumbersome.

[madmanmike25]

I guess I just don't see why win conditions aren't bombs.  Why risk drawing garbage off a Draw-7 when you could play an actual threat like Belcher, EtW, or Tendrils that you already had in your hand?  Even the earliest successful Belcher lists had 4 maindeck Belcher, and most had a Tendrils in addition to that.  This is simply because if you have seven mana in your opening hand and Belcher, as long as your opponent doesn't have Force (a slightly less than 40% chance) you win.

And your answer to color inconsistency and not being able to cast Dark Ritual and Duress was to add a fourth color and try to fix that by adding four more color fixers that are wrecked by Null Rod.

Guess what else gets wrecked by Null Rod? Your entire chances of winning.  You think your opponent will really be putting artifacts in his GY when you have a Welder out?  How would you answer a first turn Null Rod?  Say a very rare occurence happens....you don't get to go first.  You have no answer to it.  I tested this weekend and FoW is not, in my opinion as bad as Chalice or Rod/Sphere.  Goblin Welder ONLY works if its the Belcher that is countered.  Have you ever had a Dark Ritual countered?  I know I have.

The format has sped up since 2005, no doubt.  Xantid Swarm is slow because hate like Duress goes around it and because combo can win in the extra turn it gives them.  Ancient Grudge is slow because it uses two of your mana when you should just be winning before Needle/Rod or going around them with free mana and Empty the Warrens.

I think years of testing has shown that Belcher is better when it's limited to three colors.

Years of testing?  How long has it been since Belcher did anything relevent at a tournament?  Sui Black has MORE years of testing, but no new cards have come out that give it any remote chance at victory.  I can honestly say that cards such as SSG/Rite/Star/Grudge(IMO) are what MIGHT bring some life back into Belcher.  I will even say I'm not positive that Belcher (any build) is going to make a comeback for sure.  Again, comments like  "you should be winning BEFORE" any hate card really irk me.  You have a 50/50 chance of being on the play.  Most people assume they get to go first, sadly this isn't always the case.

Chalice @ 0:  CC=0
Chalice @ 1:  CC=2
Null Rod :      CC=2
Sphere:        CC=2

You can always win before your opponent gets TWO mana?  In Vintage?  Are you in a non-proxy environment?

You know what avoids topdeck mode if your Belcher got countered? Welder. There is no reason Welder should not be a 4-of in the maindeck. I've never even sided Welder out against anything--it is always decent to amazing. Welder is amazing against Stax and Drain.dec.

IF you are running 4 Belchers, sure, play with 4 Welders.  You are correct, and I SB'ed the Welders in vs. Stax and its always fun times, even if I lose.  What about if it's not Belcher that got countered?  With few permanent mana sources, it can be hard to come back.  If you have 8 mana(3 permanent), Belcher, and Welder then you probably win.  I can't argue against godhands. 

 I'm sorry to do it, but I'm going to have to sound like a broken record and ask what you do against Chalice/Sphere/Rod if you are on the draw. 

5. Chalice of the Void: Ding, Ding, Ding! I think we have a winner.
 

WTF mate? Chalice is a speedbump. You have 0cc, 1cc, Land Grants and Spirit Guides for mana. You just have to wait till you find the right piece of acceleration. I'm happier to see a Chalice at any number than a Rod or even a SoR. Rod is obv a kick in the crotch, and SoR completely shuts down Land Grant and all Moxen until you find a Spirit Guide.

Again count your cards with 0 CC and 1 CC.........Did you add them up?   I'm willing to wager a Black Lotus that there are more than a couple.  I'm sorry but I can't agree with your opinion of how bad Chalice is for this deck.  Would you agree that most decks run either FoW or Chalice for disruption?  That's of course not including decks that run 4 Dark Rituals.  Chalice is out there, and it is a pain.  I have tested a lot against stax and it does come out.

Chalice @ 1 > Goblin Welder.  Your Goblin Welder will just sit in your hand along with all your acceleration.  I'm not saying that I love to see Null Rod, I have just found it's (slightly)less detrimental.

The severe lack of any wish is disturbing. Wishes are insane utility for the deck. Remember, the deck doesn't always get the absolute nut draw and your opponent has no disruption. And if anybody says "you should be winning, not casting Wishes," then they have not played the deck correctly. You don't always just win. You can't play 8 Belchers (get to that in a minute). Sometimes your Belcher gets countered or it gets through but it was on 1 time sources. Wishing for a land is awesome. If you have a Welder in play, Wishing for Bazaar is amazing.

I love the Wishes, but I found cards like Tinker/Windfall/Twister/Recall better.  Yeah, wishing for Tolarian is freakin' awesome I agree.  I might cut one card for Living Wish.  I posted the 'cards I considered' in the first post and Living Wish is right there.  It's still under consideration.  The weakest link is Windfall.

And folks, lets not forget: It's only 4 blue cards.  Those 4 cards are awesome.  I'm not like I'm putting in FoW, Brainstorm and MisD.

I think everyone should read MoxLotus' statement that I bolded like 10 times if you consider playing any Belcher deck.  This applies to other situations as well.  If you plan on just goldfishing without an opponent, don't play ANY form of resilience and you can win 1st turn all day long.

I tried these in the other Belcher builds and they were ok, but I prefer the Bombs and running less win conditions.
 

Why wouldn't you rather be casting a Belcher instead of playing a Draw 7 to find a Belcher?

Sorry, but not playing 4 Belchers is just begging to lose. The entire point is to get a Belcher on turn 1 and activate. How the hell does that happen when you don't have 4??? I'd play 8 if I could. In opening hand (and always) Belcher>any draw 7.

Belcher>draw 7??  Always?  Remember that EtW costs 4 (not 7) and requires ZERO permanent mana sources.  Here's another one you forgot:

The CC of Belcher > The CC of Draw 7.

If the entire point, as you said is first turn Belcher with activation, then you are playing ballz to the wall combo.  Don't play with Welder then.  If you would play with 8 then you must really love the stax matchup with Null Rods.  This version would rather have the resilience.

Like I have said, if you don't get that Belcher and 7 mana in your opening hand, it's pretty easy to have to mulligan.  Casting Belcher is fine as long as you have some mana to activate it within a turn or 2.

I am glad there is so much feedback for Belcher, that leads me to believe that there is a possiblity of it being a viable deck again.  Your scrutiny helps, and it is appreciated.

Personally, I would easily prefer resilience over a slight increase in winning first turn. 

I will say that I think there can be 2 versions of Belcher, much like 5c Stax or Mono R Stax.  People can debate all they want about which is better.  I just wanted to add some resilience to Belcher because too often you get screwed by the hate that is out there.  Please note that I do have Goblin Welder in the SB, and in my list(first post) I said you can swap Xantids for Welder depending on your meta.

I'm not trying to make a 'Different' form of Belcher.  I think we ALL know about those 'Different' versions of Oath you see around.  I am of the opinion that 1st turn wins(random) aren't as good as a more tenacious deck that can survive against more forms of hate.

[Moxlotus]

Belcher>draw 7??  Always?  Remember that EtW costs 4 (not 7) and requires ZERO permanent mana sources.  Here's another one you forgot:

The CC of Belcher > The CC of Draw 7.

Exactly what are you trying to draw7 into?  Why wouldn't you just rather have the Belcher in hand?  If you don't have enough mana to activate--big deal.  The deck has ~35 sources of mana.  You're gonna draw into them quickly.  A draw 7 allows your opponent to draw into his nuts and possibly counters.

Chalice @ 1 > Goblin Welder.  Your Goblin Welder will just sit in your hand along with all your acceleration.  I'm not saying that I love to see Null Rod, I have just found it's (slightly)less detrimental.

Obv, but if they cast Chalice@1 then they didn't cast Chalice@0.  I'd much rather have them cast Chalice@1 than 0.

I said Chalice isn't a big threat to the deck because of the variety of cc for acceleration?  You have Chalice@1?
0: moxen, lotus, petal, crypt
1: dark rits, rite of flames (which are insane)/tinderwalls, vault, ring
2: grim monolith, possibly another ritual
uncoutnerable: 8 spirit guides

If the entire point, as you said is first turn Belcher with activation, then you are playing ballz to the wall combo.  Don't play with Welder then.  If you would play with 8 then you must really love the stax matchup with Null Rods.  This version would rather have the resilience.

You don't realize that Welder=resiliance.  The entire point IS to get first turn Belcher--hence the reason to play 4.  The resiliance is Welders.  Your resiliance consists of 3 mana draw7s that may or may not draw you into what you need. 

[madmanmike25]

Obv, but if they cast Chalice@1 then they didn't cast Chalice@0.  I'd much rather have them cast Chalice@1 than 0.

As a Stax player I can ASSURE that I have cast Chalice @ 0 and Chalice @ 1 on the same turn.  It does happen.  I have even played Chalice @ 0 and Spheres/Rods on turn 1.  This proves my point that Chalice is freakin' awesome....and a threat to these types of decks.

I said Chalice isn't a big threat to the deck because of the variety of cc for acceleration?  You have Chalice@1?
0: moxen, lotus, petal, crypt
1: dark rits, rite of flames (which are insane)/tinderwalls, vault, ring
2: grim monolith, possibly another ritual
uncoutnerable: 8 spirit guides

Please clarify this for me.  Is this rhetorical?  Why do you ask "Chalce@1?"  then list 1cc acceleration?  If your point is to show the diversity of mana available, then you are preaching to the choir.  Those different sources of mana are what let me cast spells/grudge and enable me to win.

All I know is that Chalice @ 1 hurt me far more in testing than Chalice @ 0.

You don't realize that Welder=resiliance.  The entire point IS to get first turn Belcher--hence the reason to play 4.  The resiliance is Welders.  Your resiliance consists of 3 mana draw7s that may or may not draw you into what you need. 

I do realize that Welder is resilience, hence the SB inclusion.  My resilience isn't the D7's but 3 Xantids/3 Ancient Grudge.  How could anyone construe that D7's = resilience???  Look at them like this:  They give you a FREE mulligan at the very least.  Not to mention they up your storm count and you get 7 cards to either cast EtW or Tendrils.  It's very rare that I get 7 cards and can't get 3+mana, you also get to float any mana from your first 7 cards as well.

I realize the deck is called Belcher, but I have been equally winning with EtW tokens.

@MoxLotus: What decklist are you using?  I would just like to have a reference so I can test your version and prove your points.

I see that others are cutting Black from decklists.  Would you agree with that?  I'm sorry, but I really think that takes power away from the deck (read:Yawg's Will).  Not to mention, Dark Ritual is the BEST non-artifact acceleration at 1cc.  Why wouldn't you use it in a combo deck?

How can anyone say that Tinker is bad in a Belcher deck??????  Or blue (Ancestral Recall/Twister/Windfall)for that matter?  I'm not advocating brainstorms here.  Just 4 blue cards that help you win with Belcher OR EtW.

[policehq]

Here's my list that I adapted from Justin Droba's B/R/G lists. I thought it would be the better starting point.

Since Simian Spirit Guide was released, I cut Elvish Spirit Guides and Tinder Walls for slots and because that combo enabled the same mana generation as SSG.

I wanted to play Empty The Warrens because the deck can win through Null Rod a lot of different ways. SSG + Ritual + [up the storm count with Moxen or what have you] = a threat.

When I cut the Elvish Spirit Guides, I found that Channel could never be cast after >10 games. I cut it, and I cut Lion's Eye Diamond with it, since 4 Empty The Warrens did not depend on it.

I cut Necropotence because of the Empty the Warrens kill being two or three turns slower, thus a lower life count is really bad. Plus Belcher is a very disruptable deck anyway, and the passing of the turn was problematic. I think it will go back into the maindeck, though.

I'm considering cutting Demonic Consultation, Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, and Grim Monolith. Not all in one go, but testing different lists with a card in each of their places.

The only red ritual I see worth running is Rite of Flame, and I may play them to help the Empty the Warrens kill through Null Rod.

4 land grant
1 bayou
1 taiga
5 mox
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 grim monolith
4 dark ritual
3 cabal ritual
4 simian spirit guide

4 goblin welder
3 dark confidant
4 chromatic star

1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal

3 duress
2 living wish

1 wheel of fortune
1 yawgmoth's bargain
1 memory jar
1 yawgmoth's will

4 goblin charbelcher
4 empty the warrens

Dark Confidant is in place of Channel, LED, and Necropotence. He is a buffer against low mulligans, countered openings, and helps in the same way that Goblin Welder + Chromatic Star helps in the 'mid-game.' He may just be in because of my low Belcher playskill, so other cards can go in his place.

-hq

[madmanmike25]

Yeah I think that black brings too much to the party to be omitted from Belcher lists.

Policehq, I would cut 1 Confidant for the Necropotence.  You run 4 Dark Rituals and 3 Cabals.  You have pretty decent odds of getting BBB.  Let's face it, when trying to combo off, both Confidant AND Necro are dead draws.  Necro is just better first turn than Confidant.

I'm not sure I can agree with cutting ESG, and not just for Channels sake either.

I like Grim Monolith as well, I'm not sure I would cut it.

Also, think about maybe adding 2 Chrome Spheres to combo with Vamp Tutor/Imperial Seal.  You get that card now. 

If you do run 4 Goblin Welders and 4 Belchers, you MUST keep in LED.  EtW doesn't depend on it (as you said) but Charbelcher does.

Just some thoughts.  Good luck, I think this is already better than R/G Belcher.

*EDIT.  With the 2 dmg from Confidant being pretty irrelevant with Belcher activation and swinging EtW tokens, can you elaborate why you would choose him over Nights Whisper in this deck?

[GrandpaBelcher]

That looks like a pretty solid list.   I love the idea of maindeck Dark Confidants.  Without Elvish Spirit Guides, do you find you have trouble casting Living Wish when you need it?   Still, cutting the 5-8 Spirit Guides gives you a lot of room to work with, and red-black is a strong combination.

I don't know that I agree with the cutting of LED, though.  LED, Welder, Belcher in hand, and another artifact in play is such an easy win sometimes.  And though it doesn't help cast EtW, it does build storm.

Nice deck.

[policehq]

I feel like Empty the Warrens is either a 4-of or none at all unless you're playing Blue and Draw-7's.

One of the strengths that Belcher has against hate is that you can lay all your mana sources down before 'going off' and not hurt your storm count when you do 'go off.' So Empty the Warrens is an additional threat that can be found in your opening hand, but when you draw it after the first two turns, it's really terrible, and it has never been a card I would tutor for.

The deck I posted runs two green cards outside of Land Grants (Living Wish), and I haven't had trouble casting anything but Channel. If I had to put Elvish Spirit Guides back in, I would cut 5 cards for them and Channel. If Channel didn't come in, I don't think 1-3 ESG's are necessary.

So, possible changes to the deck are:
-4 Empty the Warrens
-3 Dark Confidant
+4 Elvish Spirit Guide
+1 Channel
+1 Lion's Eye Diamond
+1 Necropotence

Or:
-3 Dark Confidant
+1 Necropotence
+1 Lion's Eye Diamond
+1 ? (Tainted Pact, Night's Whisper, Chromatic Sphere, Wheel of Fate?)

-hq

[Moxlotus]

My resilience isn't the D7's but 3 Xantids/3 Ancient Grudge.  How could anyone construe that D7's = resilience???  Look at them like this:  They give you a FREE mulligan at the very least.  Not to mention they up your storm count and you get 7 cards to either cast EtW or Tendrils.  It's very rare that I get 7 cards and can't get 3+mana, you also get to float any mana from your first 7 cards as well

The last thing I want in Belcher is new hands that it can't mulligan.  How often does Belcher mull?  Quite a lot compared to other decks.  Why?  It gets crappy hands a lot of times.  It is much better to have the Belcher in hand than to have to draw7 for it and hope to hit cards that can be played.

Blue is terrible in Belcher.  That's why it was cut over a year ago.  Drawing random cards is not what Belcher wants.  It wants very specific cards--namely Belcher.  A Belcher in hand>draw 7 in hand.

As a Stax player I can ASSURE that I have cast Chalice @ 0 and Chalice @ 1 on the same turn.  It does happen.  I have even played Chalice @ 0 and Spheres/Rods on turn 1.  This proves my point that Chalice is freakin' awesome....and a threat to these types of decks.
 

Congratulations, the stax player dropped 2 lock spells on turn 1.  More than likely=gg.  My point isn't that Chalice doesn't affect Belcher, its that it affects it less than SoR.  If they play turn 1 SoR you can't play anything unless you happened to rip your land or have a spirit guide in hand.  A Chalice at some number still lets you play a lot of spells left in the deck.

I can't give the exact decklist I'm using right now but its pretty similar (ie, ~50 or so cards similar) to the ones listed towards the beginning of the Burning Belcher thread.  Rite of Flame and 8 spirit guides are the stone cold nuts. 

I see that others are cutting Black from decklists.  Would you agree with that?  I'm sorry, but I really think that takes power away from the deck (read:Yawg's Will).  Not to mention, Dark Ritual is the BEST non-artifact acceleration at 1cc.  Why wouldn't you use it in a combo deck?

I haven't tested without black.  But I'll disagree that it is because of Will.  Will is very weak in Belcher compared to other decks.  If Will was banned, Belcher would hardly bat an eye.  I'd keep black because of the tutors most importantly. 

[policehq]

MoxLotus, are you playing Rite of Flame in Cabal Ritual's place? If so, do you still play Necropotence? Also, against Chalice of the Void @ 1 and Sphere of Resistance, Rite of Flame either can't be played (along with Dark Ritual), or it can't net any mana (whereas Cabal Ritual, the likely candidate to be removed for Rite of Flame, can gain mana with threshold).

When red mana only gets you Rite of Flame, Wheel of Fortune, or Goblin Welder, and black mana gets you tutors, rituals, and broken draw, why do you choose Rite over Cabal?

If you didn't replace Cabal Ritual with Rite of Flame, then excuse my poor logic. I understand that your list is probably held in secrecy by a team or whatever, but if you could be so kind as to say what cards you dropped for Rite of Flame, and why, I'd appreciate it.

EDIT: In addition, it seems that Rite of Flame would add the pressure of Land Grant -> Taiga, which in theory and practice is a play you'd only want to do if playing Goblin Welder or Wheel of Fortune would be your only hope of winning or if you have already played Bayou.

-hq

[BreathWeapon]

Blue is bad because it forces the deck to use a fourth, or third, color; your bombs become situational when they need an Egg, Sphere or Star to be played. If the deck focuses on resolving Goblin Charblecher or Empty the Warrens, it only needs one color, red, and it can add green thanks to Land Grant, Taiga and Elvish Spirit Guide.

As much as I like Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual, adding black for black rituals is worse than just using red rituals; Right of Flame is better than Dark Ritual, because it can be cast off Simian Spirit Guide and Tinder Wall, and it can chain into Desperate Ritual, Seething Song and Empty the Warrens. Black rituals require a source of red mana or a filter in order to cast Empty the Warrens, making them less synergistic with the deck; I could not care less that Dark Ritual produces 3 mana and Right of Flame produces 2 mana, the color of the mana is more important than the quantity.

The only reason to play black is for the tutors, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Will* and Unmask; all of those cards are good, but they require mana filtering, which trades your consistency for explosiveness.

*Yawgmoth's Will and Channel are both terrible, IMO, because neither of them are self sufficient.

I don't see any reason to include any card before 4 Belcher and 4 Warrens, because any other card is just a means to find Belcher or Warrens; this is the version I am using online,

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens

1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence

1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

4 Unmask

4 Bloodfire Egg

2 Living Wish

4 Simian Spirt Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet

This is where the deck wants to go; Bloodfire is better than either Chromatic Sphere or Chromatic Star because it produces black mana for the rituals and red mana for the win condition off a single card, and Unmask is better than Goblin Welder because it protects Land Grant, Empty the Warrens and discards Null Rod and Meddling Mage.

I could cut Lion's Eye Diamond and/or Memory Jar/Wheel of Fortune for additional Living Wish, that card is amazing against aggro-control.

[MaxxMatt]

Before SSG's print, I thought that Living Wish could not be swapped  with anything better.
Now, any Belcher-EtW player have a Free-Unlockable-Red mana to be able to cast ShatteringSpree and kill almost any Belcher.hate excluding M.Mage.
Coupled, as BreathWeapon did, with Unmask ( checking for Mages or Counterspells ), can be really far more sinergic than Living Wish, that force you play green.

SSG+S.Spree can kill anytime Chalices o Rod or Needles for one mana, chained with ESG kills SoR for free and Replicated with another Red-ManaSource kill CotV@1 too!

I'm too sure that Black-Red-Belcher is now far more interesting than BGR or RG Belcher.
I tested those version extensively during this days and I found them play totally different games and suffer completely different hate.

Blue-Based Version are a bit weird now. You can add sufficient brokeness, even without the addition of that color.
3Colors-versions can add flexible sideboard elements, but I fear that they can *scrub you out* too many times, especially when playing long-racing-tourneys. We are talking about Belcher in order to try to play it in real life events. Maybe long and important ones. 7 or more Swiss Rounds could be difficult to play with the needed solidity for so much time.

Two colored versions are solid. Damned solid. I even ( sadly ) ovelooked to some cards like Necro, Bargain and Umasks.
RG versions are better against aggro,aggro-control and combo, because they have a solid approach to the game and can *mulligan* more than other versions, trying to achieve a better hand. Otherwise, they can *fizzle* when facing too many control decks
BR versions are far better against  control. Discarding effects and tutors are key part of the winning strategy. Coupled with high speed, they are deadly.



@@@Mana Choices@@@
I'm not totally convinced about Cabal Ritual in BR lists.
I refer them only as a *necessary evil*
Cabal Rituals have been added to old Belcher lists in order to *recover* after a quick CoV@1.
You can't think about winning when CotV@1 is in play almost 50-60% of the times.
Then they print Shattering Spree and now they give us SSG.
You Stacks matchup automatically improve and their threats are far more less game ending, even if they are the ones on the play.
Maybe Ritual of Flames, can be added into their slots. I have to try them more to be sure of what I'm saying now.


IMHO, BR versions, even doesn't need Taiga too.
While it is *safer* to play with 2 lands, I think you can *try* to play 1-Land-Belcher too.
You need Bayou to start.
You need Taiga into the deck to deal twice the damage.
Isn't it a bit overkill?
Would you mill your deck so much that you need taiga inside?
Wouldn't you play your entire hand and not more than a single draw-spell and nothing more before winning?
There are really few game situations during which you are forced to slow play and resolve, without winning, more than 2 or 3 draw7s.
These are the only game situations that could possibly suggest you play Taiga. On the other hand, Taiga can be milled with the other cards, leaving you in the exact situation without being able to help you.
Maybe cutting Taiga for another tutor/drawer/mana/solution would be better.
I thought about XantidSwarm#1 or S.Spree#3 but there are additional options worth testing.



Atfter my previous test-matches at now, I would play a 2colors list, really similar to BreathWeapon's one, but with minor ( and not trivial ) changes.


@@@Winner Choices@@@
I would switch EtW#4 for ToA#1.
That move put me in the condition to add Y.Will. I choose to kill MemoryJar/ImperialSeal and add this bomb.

Is the deck different?
No.
Can the deck try to win ( when needed ) in an instantaneus way?
Yes.
Without TimeWalk, EtW is a two.turns winning condition.
Belcher can kill instantly, but you need not to be hated by blind Rod or Needle against you.

Black give you access to full set of strong Rituals, Tutors and the classical Storm.Combo.Primarily.Kill.Co ndition.
Grant, Ritual, AdditionalMana, Tutor, Y.Will, Other Spells, Tutor for ToA, Win.

Can they singlehandly hate out someone about your Winning conditions?
Yes.
Can they partially hate you out, quickly?
Yes.
Can they completely hate you out, WHEN playing with 3 different way to win?
NO.

This is the great flexibility additional ToA gives to you.
It isn't a WIN MORE cards, it is a LOSE LESS opportunity.

Have you lost speed or consistency or anything else?
No.
Have you acquired more than loss?
Yes.
Ding! Ding! Ding! ToA+Y.Will Passed the test!


@@@Fixers and Solutions Choices@@@
I would play C.Stars over Eggs too.
This is all about playstyle, but there are a lot of things to do when playing Belcher and maybe, paying 2 to start doing things, can be too much mana intensive for his effect.

As referred in my previous statement, with maindeck Unmasks, I would swap S.Spree instead of Living Wish.
Umasks are tutorable and Rituals.sinergical.spells, they can be played before opponent had deadly mainphases and discard mages.
S.Spree would get rid of the rest.
In a more color-sinergic way.

I would play 2 or 3 of them. Living Wish x2 and Cabal Ritual#4 can be swapped for Shattering Spree x3.
On the other hand, playing with only two of them and being able to tutor for them acquire almost the same statistical value, but with an higher mana investment, that is bad for Belcher.


Listen to me.
This deck is going to be good.
Really too good...


Maxx

[madmanmike25]

Blue is terrible in Belcher.  That's why it was cut over a year ago.  Drawing random cards is not what Belcher wants.  It wants very specific cards--namely Belcher.  A Belcher in hand>draw 7 in hand.

I'd play 8 if I could. In opening hand (and always) Belcher>any draw 7.  (previous quote)

So then why in gods name would you not play Tinker???  Consider it Belcher #5.  You say you would run 8, but chose to omit the 5th one?  Draw7's aside, I strongly urge you to run a lone Tinker if you run 4 Chromatic Stars.  Just one.  That's it, no other Blue spells, just Tinker.  With Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, Mox Sapphire, and 4 Chromatic Stars, not running Tinker is just bad business.  The sheer insanity of it far outweighs those occasions where it might be a dead card.

I can't give the exact decklist I'm using right now but its pretty similar (ie, ~50 or so cards similar) to the ones listed towards the beginning of the Burning Belcher thread.  Rite of Flame and 8 spirit guides are the stone cold nuts. 

I haven't tested without black.  But I'll disagree that it is because of Will.  Will is very weak in Belcher compared to other decks.  If Will was banned, Belcher would hardly bat an eye.  I'd keep black because of the tutors most importantly. 

Will is debatable as the reason to include black, I agree.   But, you DO run it correct?  I mean, if you run Black (Bayou) you are PLAYING with Yawgmoth's Will, right?

It's just hard to imagine combo without Dark Rituals though, don't forget that Belcher can use BBB.  Dark Ritual > Rite of Flame.  All it takes is Land Granting for that Bayou.


I will end my tirade about why I think Draw7's are good in a Combo deck, despite the fact that every list I am seeing so far runs Wheel of Fortune and Memory Jar. 

I will offer this input.  Ancient Grudge > Shattering Spree.  Think about it, Spree costs RR to get that Chalice @ 1.  Grudge costs 1R.  You don't have to use Grudge all at once either, unlike Shattering Spree.  Instants > Sorceries.  The likelyhood of getting RRR to take out 3 artifacts(or chalice@1 and one more artifact) isn't as high as getting 1R, then G(at any time you wish).

And yes, Chromatic Stars are better than Eggs.

@BreathWeapon: What critters/lands are in your Wishboard?  So far Lochinvar's SB looks pretty solid.  I especially like the Bazaar of Baghdad since you guys are running 4 Goblin Welders.  That seems pretty insano to me.

@anyone.  How has the Seething Song that I'm seeing in some lists tested out?  Is it an overpriced red Dark Ritual?

[+t]

Blue is terrible in Belcher.  That's why it was cut over a year ago.  Drawing random cards is not what Belcher wants.  It wants very specific cards--namely Belcher.  A Belcher in hand>draw 7 in hand.

I'd play 8 if I could. In opening hand (and always) Belcher>any draw 7.  (previous quote)

So then why in gods name would you not play Tinker???  Consider it Belcher #5.  You say you would run 8, but chose to omit the 5th one?  Draw7's aside, I strongly urge you to run a lone Tinker if you run 4 Chromatic Stars.  Just one.  That's it, no other Blue spells, just Tinker.  With Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, Mox Sapphire, and 4 Chromatic Stars, not running Tinker is just bad business.  The sheer insanity of it far outweighs those occasions where it might be a dead card.

Rather than try and pass this idea off as my own, I'll simply quote from JD (This came from the thread "Belcher Optimazation", which you should read if you haven't already):

3) Tinker

I've been over this before, but it requires you to fetch out Tropical Island.  Why?  Because otherwise, you have to sacrifice TWO artifacts to play Tinker.  Without Trop, your blue sources are
Chromatic Sphere
Lotus Petal
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire

6 of those 7 cards require you to sacrifice them to generate the blue mana, so you need to have another artifact in play that you are willing to sacrifice to play Tinker.  5 Moxes, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, and Grim Monolith are the permanent mana artifacts, and you really only want to sacrifice two of those.  If your Tinker gets countered, you're going to be hurting a lot.  Mana Crypt and Sol Ring are the most important artifacts to have around when it comes to activating a Belcher, and I'd never ever want to have to sacrifice one of those.  Thus, Tinker is yet another conditional card, and one that you won't be able to play/want to play all that often.  So back to Tropical Island.  It is not the land you want to be putting into play.  You have 3 blue cards, and a lot more black cards.  You want Bayou in play.  It is the land you will be wanting to find most often.  If you have to fetch out Tropical Island to play one card in your hand (and won't see any like more cards of that color for the remainder of the game), you cut yourself off from the colors that matter most.  After your one blue card is gone, Tropical Island functions like a basic Forest that can be Wastelanded.  That's just awful.  If I were to want a 3rd land, I'd want it to be Wasteland immune.  THAT's stability.

[policehq]

To sum it up, Tinker is like a 4-card combo that = the 5th Charbelcher, but it doesn't act as a Charbelcher by itself.

It's rare for me to have more than 2 artifacts in play unless the third is Goblin Charbelcher, so if one is Chromatic Star, and the other is an artifact I can sacrifice to Tinker, I will need a land + accelerant to cast Tinker, and then I'll be short on permanent mana sources to activate for the win.

-hq

[BreathWeapon]

Bloodfire Egg>Chromatic Sphere/Star; I have tested this, and Bloodfire Egg will allow the deck to cast its black rituals and red win conditions where Chromatic Sphere/Star will not; I have lost games because Chromatic Sphere/Star couldn't produce both black and red mana, I have never lost a game because Bloodfire Egg cost 3 mana as opposed to 2 net mana.

The reason to use Chromatic Sphere/Star is if the deck is also using Living Wish, Tinder Wall and blue restricted cards.

I would support cutting Cabal Ritual for Right of Flame, if all I was doing was exchanging one ritual for another, but Cabal Ritual is necessary for Unmask, and it doubles the chances of being able to cast a Necropotence or Yawgmoth's Bargain. If I replaced Unmask with Goblin Welder or blasts, I would also replace Cabal Ritual with Right of Flame, at which point I would consider removing black altogether.

I don't see a reason to remove green from the deck, because green is a free color in Elvish Spirit Guide and Land Grant; there's no harm in including Living Wish and/or Tinder Wall over other red cards, because there are more/equal sources of green mana than red mana, and it's better than adding a black card, because there are less sources of black mana than green mana.

I would include a second land in a 3c deck, because it allows a second Land Grant to search for a second land, and it increases the odds of drawing a permanent mana source. There are also situations where Taiga is better than Bayou, and you want be able to take advantage of those situations.

Living Wish is an amazing card, my Living Wish SB in my R/g Blelcher is

1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 City of Brass
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip Mine
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Elvish Scrapper
1 Elvish Lyrist
4 Shattering Spree

and then I SB a Goblin Welder if I am using non-Goblin Welder disruption. I am considering Minion of the Wastes and Worldgorger Dragon as alternate win conditions, and I am also considering Mountain, Forest and/or Swamp in Stax and Fish metas.

Strip Mine is awesome, because wishing for Strip Mine on the draw allows the deck to deny UU; it's better than Xantid Swarm or Goblin Welder in a lot of situations against control and combo.

[madmanmike25]

JD has good points, but it's a little bit dated information.  JD's info is based on JD's build (at the time) of Belcher.  I have not doubt whatsoever that he is 100% correct regarding his particular build.  Remember, now we have 4 Chromatic Stars and 4 SSG to consider.  Things have changed.

I will concede that running Tinker is risky when not running Tropical Island.  I would still run it.  Brokenness comes at a price.

Tinker finds Belcher
Tinker finds Memory Jar
Tinker finds Black Lotus

Tinkering for a Lotus is the weakest, unless you REALLY need on-color mana.  It's also 2 more goblin tokens for free.


Personally, I am still liking 4 Stars and 3 Spheres in my build.  Whenever I see Tinker, I usually win, as I have enough artifacts to cast it AND sacrifice one.  Remember that I do run Tropical Island in my build, so Tinker stays in for me.  You guys who choose to cut blue can decide for yourselves about running it or not.   I have tried several different builds of Belcher and from my experience Land Granting for a Taiga is weak.

@ BreathWeapon.  Have you considered City of Traitors in the SB for when you need to activate Belcher? 

EDIT:

Without TimeWalk, EtW is a two.turns winning condition.

Wouldn't it be a trip to be able to use Time Walk in a combo deck?  This is for versions that run blue of course.  It's another attack phase AND another Belcher activation if needed.  Hell, I might just try it out for fun.

[BreathWeapon]

I have used Ancient Tomb in the SB, but I found that the deck could either win on that turn with the 3 mana from Mishra's Workshop or win on the next turn with 2 mana from Tolarian Academy.

[spindrift]

Wouldn't it be a trip to be able to use Time Walk in a combo deck?  This is for versions that run blue of course.  It's another attack phase AND another Belcher activation if needed.  Hell, I might just try it out for fun.

Why not use Final Fortune?

Also, why not use gamble to find a Belcher? If you have a welder in play, it could be a perfect way to search it out and get it into play for cheap. It may be a bit conditional, but it could be worth trying.