[Premium Article] An Honest Look at the Restricted List

[Smmenen]

Two - Ban the Storm Cards! This reminds me of the Necro vs What ever was winning at the time argument.  The real problem was the skull not what it took to actually do the killing.  Banning the storm mechanic would make Yawg a lot less powerful wouldn't it?  Again, we must admit that there is a problem and not bury our heads in the sand.

If you cast Yawgmoth's Will and have a storm card in your deck, you win the game.  If you cast Will and do not, the card advantage that it accrues will win the game anyway.  Storm just makes you win immediately, rather than on the back of the card advantage gained.

While its true that Yawg Will is most powerful with Storm, I don't really see the difference if the win condition is Psychatog + Berserk, Tinker for Darksteel + Time Walk, or Tendrils post-will  It seems like a trivial distinction.  They'll all get the job done.

[forests failed you]

I feel that Vintage has cards that are simply more undercosted and more abusable than Will.

Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Moxes and Especially Lotus are all insane plays with respect to tempo advantage.  And they don't require any other preparation. 

Will is grossly powerful; but you have to set it up.  Furthermore, a Tormod's Crypt or Extripate can fizzle Will, as does a counterspell.  At the moment I don't feel that Vintage has a dominant deck or even a dominant archetype; I think that there is a good balance.  I would not be in favor of any card being restricted. 

[Metman]

Two - Ban the Storm Cards! This reminds me of the Necro vs What ever was winning at the time argument.  The real problem was the skull not what it took to actually do the killing.  Banning the storm mechanic would make Yawg a lot less powerful wouldn't it?  Again, we must admit that there is a problem and not bury our heads in the sand.

If you cast Yawgmoth's Will and have a storm card in your deck, you win the game.  If you cast Will and do not, the card advantage that it accrues will win the game anyway.  Storm just makes you win immediately, rather than on the back of the card advantage gained.

While its true that Yawg Will is most powerful with Storm, I don't really see the difference if the win condition is Psychatog + Berserk, Tinker for Darksteel + Time Walk, or Tendrils post-will  It seems like a trivial distinction.  They'll all get the job done.

I'm not advocating the banning of Storm cards.  I saw it as a possible solution to weakening the power of Yawgmoth's Will.  It is obvious though that Storm was a mistake in Vintage.  It just so happened to be enabled by the best card in the game in Yawgmoth's Will.  YawgWill, still being the best card in the format, was just waiting for a mistake like Storm to come by to abuse, I think it is the straw that may break the camel's back.  There are far more ways to disrupt a berserking, trampling, indistructible, time walking creature than there is to stop Storm.  Obviously the best way to stuff any deck that abuses Yawg is to stop the Yawg not the actual card that deals lethal damage, but this has been talked about though.  Any deck that spends 4-8 MD slots to stop one card will have too many dead cards too often against too many decks.  It would only beat, and only sometimes, a deck that has a truck load of tutors to find protection and the Yawg. 

But come on, this is vintage and this is the format that abuses CA and tempo better than any other format.  It's the reason we play this format right?  Banning Will won't stop combo though if that is what some of you out there are thinking.  Combo will evolve just as it has over the years. 

I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned. 

[seer]

I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned. 

Burning Wish
Imperial Seal
Personal Tutor
Frantic Search
Time Spiral

Those could all be safely taken off. Probably Chrome Mox as well.

[Nehptis]

[Banning Will won't stop combo though if that is what some of you out there are thinking.  Combo will evolve just as it has over the years. 

The point is not to stop combo.  It's to improve the format by eliminating a card that minimizes interaction, causes other cards to be restricted and potentially stifles (no pun intended!) design decisions because of its existence.

[Metman]

[Banning Will won't stop combo though if that is what some of you out there are thinking.  Combo will evolve just as it has over the years. 

The point is not to stop combo.  It's to improve the format by eliminating a card that minimizes interaction, causes other cards to be restricted and potentially stifles (no pun intended!) design decisions because of its existence.

It wasn't my point either.  I know that it may be the point of argument for others though.  I don't think that Wizards cares about the powerlevel of Yawg when designing cards.  They had to have known that the storm mechanic was going to be abused in vintage but it didn't stop them from printing it in fact they just printed more storm cards.

[zeus-online]

I agree with FFY that the power nine are better cards, but i'd argue that Will is more abusive, it just ends games, and often way faster then what could have been achieved without it.

The point isn't to kill combo, its about weakening both combo and control decks, to create a better meta-game.

About storm:
I read an article where it was stated that the R&D was really surprised at how used the storm cards where in vintage, so i really think that they had no idea how powerful they where, although i'd like to point out that storm is played in almost every format.

Oh and banning the Storm cards would be like trying to stop an infi-mana deck by banning fireball...its just pointless.


Quote from: Metman on Yesterday at 07:38:35 PM
I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned.

I honestly don't think that there are any cards which could be removed because of will's banning, but some cards like burning wish could probably come off the list regardless of will's banning or not.

/Zeus

[yespuhyren]

I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned. 

Burning Wish
Imperial Seal
Personal Tutor
Frantic Search
Time Spiral

Those could all be safely taken off. Probably Chrome Mox as well.

Personaly Tutor would be REDICULOUS if taken off.  Thats 4 more tutors for tinker.  People would just play a Tinker deck with heavy counters that would be nuts.

[Metman]

I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned. 

Burning Wish
Imperial Seal
Personal Tutor
Frantic Search
Time Spiral

Those could all be safely taken off. Probably Chrome Mox as well.

Personaly Tutor would be REDICULOUS if taken off.  Thats 4 more tutors for tinker.  People would just play a Tinker deck with heavy counters that would be nuts.

I was thinking the same thing.  If YawgWill got banned I think the format would just abuse the crap out of the next best game ending card.  I think Tinker would be king in that case. 

[Smmenen]

I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned. 

Burning Wish
Imperial Seal
Personal Tutor
Frantic Search
Time Spiral

Those could all be safely taken off. Probably Chrome Mox as well.

Personaly Tutor would be REDICULOUS if taken off.  Thats 4 more tutors for tinker.  People would just play a Tinker deck with heavy counters that would be nuts.

First of all: it's rIdiculous.   Second, thats only 3 more tutors for Tinker.

Why does everyone who makes that claim forget that you can already play with one Personal Tutor? 

[ELD]

Why does everyone who makes that claim forget that you can already play with one Personal Tutor?

Because no one actually plays with Personal Tutor. 

[yespuhyren]

Why does everyone who makes that claim forget that you can already play with one Personal Tutor?

Because no one actually plays with Personal Tutor. 

Exactly.  As a one of, decks don't really need it right now because they don't just need to find Tinker.  With 1 legal, that is a good play.  With 4 legal, that is a consistant play.  You then have:

4x Personal Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Imperial Seal

That is 8 Tutors that can find Tinker, and then you have:

4x Merchant Scroll

Which can also tutor up a Mystical (for tinker if you have FOW in hand), a FOW to protect your tinker and/or colossus, or get you Recall to gain more card advantage.

[policehq]

An unrestricted Personal Tutor also means that a duplicate copy will get Time Walk, which is bad news for the opponent.

However, the fact that you have to play it after your draw phase is very relevant and restricts the power level of the card.

-hq

[zeus-online]

It's infinitely easier to deal with tinker then Will though...Wipe away pretty much stops it cold, and you probably got at least two turns to respond to whatever they bring in, assuming that they resolve Tinker to start with.

I just don't see TutorTinker.dec being dominating.

/Zeus

[Nastaboi]

Mysticaling into Tinker into something has already cost you one draw step and one artifact. Card advantage-wise, it's like reverse Ancestral. If opponent uses one card to answer your Tinker, you're so behind that good luck coming back from there. Even if an opponent uses Force to prevent Tinker, you are still behind one card.

[Dnine]

Please unrestrict personal tutor so I can sit across from some player that decides to go:

Turn one land personal tutor for tinker play mox, go
Second turn land tinker for col.  (only 3 cards left in hand and your tapped out BTW)
third turn swing
Forth turn...oh wait I've lost cause it's the forth turn and I haven't done hardly anything to desrupt my opponent.

PLEASE unrestrict it!!!! PLEASE 

[Mana Duane]

I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned. 

Burning Wish
Imperial Seal
Personal Tutor
Frantic Search
Time Spiral

Those could all be safely taken off. Probably Chrome Mox as well.

I'm confused. It's suggested that Imperial Seal and Personal Tutor could be unrestricted and everyone is worried about the effect Personal Tutor could have?
So Imperial doesn't pitch to FoW -  I'd still rather have any card than be restricted to sorceries.

[Smmenen]

I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned. 

If we are talking about cards that deserve to be on the restricted list with Yawg Will legal - the only clear card that could be removed if it were banned would be Burning Wish.    I'm not sure about Frantic Search. 

However, the second closest case would then be Gush.   Most Groatog games ended with a massive yawg will featuring 3-8 Gushes in one turn in combination with Fastbond.   

[Moxlotus]

Please unrestrict personal tutor so I can sit across from some player that decides to go:

Turn one land personal tutor for tinker play mox, go
Second turn land tinker for col.  (only 3 cards left in hand and your tapped out BTW)
third turn swing
Forth turn...oh wait I've lost cause it's the forth turn and I haven't done hardly anything to desrupt my opponent.

PLEASE unrestrict it!!!! PLEASE 

If Personal Tutor is so amazing at getting Tinker then why is NO ONE playing it right now?

[Yare]

If Personal Tutor is so amazing at getting Tinker then why is NO ONE playing it right now?

I can honestly say the same thing was on my mind.

I think Personal Tutor is just behind too many other good tutors in the proverbial tutor line to get a spot.  That being said, I think we need to remove those imitators (see: Voltaic Key) from the list before we remove Tutor.

[BreathWeapon]

I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned. 

If we are talking about cards that deserve to be on the restricted list with Yawg Will legal - the only clear card that could be removed if it were banned would be Burning Wish.    I'm not sure about Frantic Search. 

However, the second closest case would then be Gush.   Most Groatog games ended with a massive yawg will featuring 3-8 Gushes in one turn in combination with Fastbond.   

What's the point of Burning Wish being restricted when Yawgmoth's Will is restricted? Grim Tutor is superior to Burning Wish in order to set up Yawgmoth's Will; other than the overreaction to the original Long, I don't see a justification for it being restricted. It's not doing anything abusive in Legacy, and you have 4 Lion's Eye Diamond in that format.

[Smmenen]

I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned. 

If we are talking about cards that deserve to be on the restricted list with Yawg Will legal - the only clear card that could be removed if it were banned would be Burning Wish.    I'm not sure about Frantic Search. 

However, the second closest case would then be Gush.   Most Groatog games ended with a massive yawg will featuring 3-8 Gushes in one turn in combination with Fastbond.   

What's the point of Burning Wish being restricted when Yawgmoth's Will is restricted? Grim Tutor is superior to Burning Wish in order to set up Yawgmoth's Will; other than the overreaction to the original Long, I don't see a justification for it being restricted. It's not doing anything abusive in Legacy, and you have 4 Lion's Eye Diamond in that format.

Just because something is generally superior does in mean in particular decks its not inferior.   Burning Wish is superior to Grim Tutor in control decks.   You probably don't remember the Shining. 

[BreathWeapon]

I am curious though which cards you guys would take off the restricted list if Yawgmoth's Will was banned. 

If we are talking about cards that deserve to be on the restricted list with Yawg Will legal - the only clear card that could be removed if it were banned would be Burning Wish.    I'm not sure about Frantic Search. 

However, the second closest case would then be Gush.   Most Groatog games ended with a massive yawg will featuring 3-8 Gushes in one turn in combination with Fastbond.   

What's the point of Burning Wish being restricted when Yawgmoth's Will is restricted? Grim Tutor is superior to Burning Wish in order to set up Yawgmoth's Will; other than the overreaction to the original Long, I don't see a justification for it being restricted. It's not doing anything abusive in Legacy, and you have 4 Lion's Eye Diamond in that format.

Just because something is generally superior does in mean in particular decks its not inferior.   Burning Wish is superior to Grim Tutor in control decks.   You probably don't remember the Shining. 

Because Future Sight and Burning Wish in a Keeper shell is going to take the format by storm? Burning Wish was restricted because of its interaction with Yawgmoth's Will and Lion's Eye Diamond in a combo deck, and it was a bad decision then, because the deck was recreated with Death Wish and improved upon with Grim Tutor; Burning Wish would be a fair card in a control shell, IMO.

[Grand Inquisitor]

You probably don't remember the Shining

You mean, Your Mother?  I mean, Mrs. Menendian?  I mean, you know the guy?

(bonus points for who gets the reference)

Really, this discussion is lacking.

Just because something is generally superior does in mean in particular decks its not inferior. 

...from the voice of T1 himself?!?

I hope you're drinking, Steve, or at least have a amazonian stripper bouncin' you, if you're posting so poorly.

The restriction list is fine.  Vintage may be in trouble, but it'll be a slow death.  Gifts Ungiven won't be restricted until it's abused in a non-drain deck.  As for the banning of YWill or anything in T1, I think it makes good sense for technical reasons.  However, this format is allowed to be ruled by more comprehensive standards exactly because it's less competitive.  Depending on your demographic, this is a good thing.

[zeus-online]

Urh, maybe i'm missing something...but was the The shinning ever considered a top deck? or meta-game distorting?...if not, then why would anyone argue that burning wish should stay restricted in order to stop said deck?

I'm bored to tears with fast combo and gifts.dec right now. And it sure dosn't look like either will be going anywhere for a while...

/Zeus

[BreathWeapon]

You probably don't remember the Shining

You mean, Your Mother?  I mean, Mrs. Menendian?  I mean, you know the guy?

(bonus points for who gets the reference)

Really, this discussion is lacking.

Just because something is generally superior does in mean in particular decks its not inferior. 

...from the voice of T1 himself?!?

I hope you're drinking, Steve, or at least have a amazonian stripper bouncin' you, if you're posting so poorly.

The restriction list is fine.  Vintage may be in trouble, but it'll be a slow death.  Gifts Ungiven won't be restricted until it's abused in a non-drain deck.  As for the banning of YWill or anything in T1, I think it makes good sense for technical reasons.  However, this format is allowed to be ruled by more comprehensive standards exactly because it's less competitive.  Depending on your demographic, this is a good thing.

Ritual Gifts proved that Gifts could be used in combo, well; doesn't that make the case?

[Smmenen]

I was rereading this article and I was wondering if anyone remembered the Oscar Tan article I referenced.  I was digging through his article archive but I couldn't find it.   It would be fascinating to take another look at that article.

[nataz]

Not sure, but while looking for it I found this; one of the most interesting articles I've ever read. <3 Oscar Tan.

A Memoriam To Beyond Dominia


P.S.

Prohibit, really?!

P.P.S.

was Michael Bower dutch?

[Mana Duane]

Has anyone considered banning Lotus rather than Will?

Lotus, unlike Will, is in EVERY type 1 deck. Even "manaless" Ichorid now plays one. Is it right that a card be in every competative deck?
Additionally Lotus requires no set up. If I have Will in my first hand I probably don't want to play it first turn. Lotus in the first hand is always a huge advantage.
Often gifts has won the game before will hits. Certainly in the control mirror you have to set up and protect your Will. I'd far rather be beaten by someone who manovered the game to their advantage then tutored up and cast Will than by someone who gets lucky and has 4+ mana turn one.
Banning lotus would signifcantly reduce the power of Will. Decks like Gifts could switch to LED or rituals but its much harder for them to combo safely with either of these.
You just need to compare Lotus to other cards to see how insane it is. Lotus petal is infinitely worse and still restricted. As is LED. There is always pressure on Ritual despite
the fact it is trash compared to Lotus. DT is a spectacularly broken card but does it need to be the 2nd best ritual in the game in addition to everything else it can do?

[Cab]

.

Has anyone considered banning Lotus rather than Will?

Lotus, unlike Will, is in EVERY type 1 deck. Even "manaless" Ichorid now plays one. Is it right that a card be in every competative deck?
Additionally Lotus requires no set up. If I have Will in my first hand I probably don't want to play it first turn. Lotus in the first hand is always a huge advantage.
Often gifts has won the game before will hits. Certainly in the control mirror you have to set up and protect your Will. I'd far rather be beaten by someone who manovered the game to their advantage then tutored up and cast Will than by someone who gets lucky and has 4+ mana turn one.
Banning lotus would signifcantly reduce the power of Will. Decks like Gifts could switch to LED or rituals but its much harder for them to combo safely with either of these.
You just need to compare Lotus to other cards to see how insane it is. Lotus petal is infinitely worse and still restricted. As is LED. There is always pressure on Ritual despite
the fact it is trash compared to Lotus. DT is a spectacularly broken card but does it need to be the 2nd best ritual in the game in addition to everything else it can do?

Lotus is in every deck, but it does not force one into playing a certain archetype or against a certain archetype like Will does. If you do not play a deck that abuses Will, then you must have a way to stop a deck from abusing Will, or else out race them with your own Will engine. No deck abuses Lotus, and the only possible argument one could make for the abuse of Lotus would be in a deck that uses Yawgmoth's Will and goes Lotus, Will, and recast lotus to play various draw, tutor, and/or ritual spells.

Lotus gives all decks an advantage, thus there is no relative advantage, which is what the Restricted list is intended to deter. As has been stated here and in many other places, if you do not play Will, you must account for it with some MD slots that are significantly less powerful in other matchups, or else risk losing to a large portion of the metagame. Forcing deck innovation to account for yawgmoth's will or else never be given a second glance is not healthy for the format. A good player can play around counterspells, a good player cannot play around a graveyard with ancestral, rituals, tutors, and other draw spells when yawgmoth's will is cast