Green Knight

[The Atog Lord]

Green Knight
Creature -- Human Knight
Trample
Protection from spells and permanents with converted mana cost less than four.
2/2

It seems that everyone gets a Knight nowadays. Red has a pro-white knight. Black has a pro-white knight. And White has knights protected from Red and Black. Blue even gets a Knight who kills other Knights! But that leaves Green out of the game. Blue doesn't have a normal knight either, but then blue seldom gets Bears of any sort. Shouldn't green, which has had a 2/3 for GG, get a Knight?

The first matter is what he should be protected from. The solution is clear if we consider that Wizards has been pushing us to play with Big Monsters and Big Spells for a long time now. Let's just make him a card that encourages Big Cards to be played. Jackal Pup? Lightning Bolt? Not an issue. Shivan Dragon? That's a problem. I think this would be a fun and interesting way to push design space in a direction Wizards wants it in, while capturing classic flavor.

Green Knight
Creature -- Human Knight
Protection from spells and permanents with converted mana cost four or less.
2/2

[zimagic]

Green Knight
Creature -- Human Knight
Trample
Protection from spells and permanents with converted mana cost less than four.
2/2

Would "...cost three or less" not be better than "....less than four"?

"3 or less" includes spells costing 3.

"Less than 4" doesn't include 4, you're including a number in the rules text which is exclusive of the effect the text is creating.

I feel that this is a very strong effect as you cut out a whole swathe of cards by putting the threshold at 3 not to mention an entire format (vintage) by putting the first targetable effect at 4.

You also get a free attack on turn 3 and possibly turn 4 if you are on the play with nothing your opponent can do about it. In a colour with a lot of pump, that's a big advantage.

[OfficeShredder]

Will he ever actually trample over anything?  The trample ability seems superficial; if something costs four or more and has a toughness of one, they're probably not blocking with it anyway, because it has a mad crazy ability.

[ELD]

I picture this guy being able to handle an avalanche riders without trading.  It doesn't seem like an issue to me to go with converted mana cost 4 or less? 

Other 4cc cards that don't seem like they should be able to hang with this guy:

Necratal
Flametounge Kavu
Solemn Simalacrum
Karstoderm/Blastoderm
Frogmite
Goblin Ringleader

Many of those creatures are inexpensive tempo cards that destroy the aggro game plan.  It would seem to me that this guy should be able to ignore those kind of cards entirely. 
 
Creatures that cost 5 or are often run in a lesser quantity, as when they do show up, they are finishers.  Morphling, Teferi, Meloku, Broodstar, Cognivore etc.  are really a sign that the role is about to change from Control to Control+Beatdown and things are going to get ugly.  That's when this guy should go packing, not when they drop a turn 4 FTK that routinely turns the game right around.  Make them dig for their bomb to win the game, or this little guy will beat them to death. 

What I also like about this guy is he can't be enchanted with stuff like rancor, but he's ready and willing to pick up some nasty equipment.  Remember there are already tons of good bears for Green.  Elvish Warrior, Wild Mongrel, Werebear, Vinelasher Kudzu and Quirion Dryad have all seen play.  This guy is stuck being a 2/2, so his ability is going to have to be strong to be considered a candidate for play.  Troll Ascetic and Nimble Mongoose are the closest to this guy I can think of, I think the 5 or less clause keeps him worse than all the cards I listed, but still potentially usable. 

[The Atog Lord]

You also get a free attack on turn 3 and possibly turn 4 if you are on the play with nothing your opponent can do about it. In a colour with a lot of pump, that's a big advantage.

Yes, but most Pump won't work on him. Remember, it is both an ability and a drawback; Giant Growth won't help him.

ELD, do you think he might be too strong if he is immune to 4cc or less? I wanted an ability that might be on par with protection from a color.

[ELD]

I don't think that 4cc or less would make him better than say, Troll Ascetic or Nimble Mongoose.  Either of those creatures are very hard to handle, and they are both a faster clock.  I think one side of the coin that has not been addressed is how good this guy could be on D-fence.  He would be a bit of a pain to swing into.  No matter what you do with a 2/2 I think Wild Mongrel is hard to surpass. 

[The Atog Lord]

I don't think that 4cc or less would make him better than say, Troll Ascetic or Nimble Mongoose.  Either of those creatures are very hard to handle, and they are both a faster clock.  I think one side of the coin that has not been addressed is how good this guy could be on D-fence.  He would be a bit of a pain to swing into.  No matter what you do with a 2/2 I think Wild Mongrel is hard to surpass. 

Changed, and trample removed to compensate.

[Green Knight]

Best creature ever!

[jro]

Can anyone explain to me why green has a human knight that is only affected by expensive things in terms of flavor?

[The Atog Lord]

Green Knight -- I'm glad you approve!

jro --

Clearly, this card is mechanic-driven. The "Human" side of things reflects the human nature of knights in the other cards in this "cycle." However, it isn't hard to conjure up a solid flavor for this fellow. He has a bit of serene stoicism about him -- he is one with nature and at peace. No mere Smother-Target sort of creature is of any concern to him. He doesn't lose sleep over Piledriver, nor does he intend to retire to a life of farming. No, he isn't even interested in his Controller's attempts to help him via Giant Growth. His destiny is too great to see his life end at the hands of something trivial. He may one day meet his match; but it won't be to any common Goblin or Rebel. Being so calm, he isn't even gifted with First Strike. However, while he might go down fighting against a Wurm or a Dragon someday, he knows the merfolk he's seeing now won't be his demise.

[Anusien]

Interesting, but I think you ought to break out of the cycle.  As it stands, we have a White Knight, a Black Knight, and a Red Knight.  I don't think the Green Knight should have such a radically different ability than the rest, so what if you made it some other creature type and setablished a seperate flavor?  This cool of an ability doesn't really fit in with that cycle aynway.

[The Atog Lord]

It was by considering how Green might have a Knight in the cycle that I came up with this idea. I'm not entirely convinced that he makes a poor Knight; yet I am willing to entertain the possibility that another flavor might better suite him.

The nature of fearing nothing except the most powerful beasts and strongest magics would make him something of a heroic character. The green color represents little in the way of heroism directly, but might be well-suited to a stoic philosphy which could lead to such heroism. For some reason, while the Logos seems blue, the Tao seems green. As such, were he not a Knight, perhaps Sage would be his creature type.

[zimagic]

It was by considering how Green might have a Knight in the cycle that I came up with this idea. I'm not entirely convinced that he makes a poor Knight; yet I am willing to entertain the possibility that another flavor might better suite him.

The nature of fearing nothing except the most powerful beasts and strongest magics would make him something of a heroic character. The green color represents little in the way of heroism directly, but might be well-suited to a stoic philosphy which could lead to such heroism. For some reason, while the Logos seems blue, the Tao seems green. As such, were he not a Knight, perhaps Sage would be his creature type.

Does it have to be part of the White, Red, Silver, Black Knight cycle? We have a lot of 2cc knights that don't fall into that cycle. The only problem with starting a new cycle or effect with both spells & permanents is that if you start with an Ur-version, everything else in the cycle is weaker.

I have no problem with this card existing solely in green or the Pro-CC mechanic staying in green.

Apologies for my brainfart on the Pump comment, I was on a "can't be targeted by opponents" trip.

I'm trying to imagine the card in a Gruul beats type deck and what it would bring to the deck. Defense, as mentioned would be a great addition as would a damage source which is unremovable by quite a few decks.

What was the deck that championed the "power of swinging for 2"? And I think all of those sources of 2 damage were easily removable. Opponents only have global effects and overcosted spells to deal with him.

How would land based effects work on this guy?

Would he be better as some armoured animal: little things don't stop him, they just bounce off his "armour". You'd need a big cannon to squish this guy. Armadillo perhaps?

[Guevara59]

It might be a good idea to give him flanking, a much more accustomed ability to cavalry.

[OfficeShredder]

Flanking would also give him a bit of game against the expensive creatures, which is probably good (as opposed to a "can't touch this, can't touch this, whoops! I just go squished" mentality)

[Norm4eva]

This ability makes me a bit nervous for its swiss-army potential.  Anything that does more 'random answering' than, say, Stifle, gives me pause.
I can buy protection as an expression of a color or character's idealogy; White/Silver Knight are trained to oppose enemies of the king and Black/Red have fundamental arguments with White.  When Goblin Piledriver got pro-blue, it was a blatent attempt to give Psychatog something to think about and has virtually no good reason to be there beyond that; it's not so bad as Apocalypse Chime but the notion is the same.  This Green Knight has a unique protection ability, but I think Green's version of this is more appropriately expressed as "-this- can't be the target of spells or abilities an opponent controls".  Green's all about living off the land and being rewarded for its deep connections to the forest; with few exceptions are the best Green creatures unable to be Rancor'd or Giant Growth'd.  To be hardy is Green, to be untouchable is White.
As a bit of an aside, I always sort of figured that a true 'Green Knight' would have protection from artifacts.

[Darkenslight]

As a bit of an aside, I always sort of figured that a true 'Green Knight' would have protection from artifacts.

QFE.  I don't think it should be called 'Green Knight' so much as 'Nature's Guardian' or something similar.  Also, why not boost this up to a 3/3 for , the same as Hierarch?

[Matt]

Maybe he should have:

Armadillo Warrior

Creature -- Elf Knight
2/2
Protection from creatures with power or toughness 2 or less (If either of a creature's power or toughness is 2 or less, Green Knight has protection from that creature.)

That way he is immune to anything that isn't at LEAST a 3/3. You can't weasel out of it by playing Deadly Insect-type pseudo-fatties, nor can he be blocked by most walls. He is also immune to FTK and Nekrataal, and all kinds of assassinry (Royal Assassin, Grim Lavamancer, double Prodigal Sorcerer, whatever). Combat prowess (in the form of First Strike) will also be of no use when facing this foe. He can only be beat by someone larger than himself - merely being deadly isn't enough - this guy can only be answered by brute force. In fact that could be the flavor text:

The only language he understands is force.

If you wanted to REALLY jazz it up, make the ability this one, which plays extremely strongly with green's pump effects:

Protection from creatures with power less than Armadillo Warrior's power
Protection from creatures with toughness less than Armadillo Warrior's toughness

With that ability, you would have to outclass him on both fronts simultaneously! Sick.

[The Atog Lord]

Great thinking, Matt. The only concern I have with that design is that he can now become a farmer. Part of making the Green Knight unable to be targetted by small spells was that you can't kill him with Lightning Bolt, but you can hit him with a big Fireball. The power/toughness thing works great for creatures; but too many of Green's hard-cast spells can be undone for a single mana. I was hoping to try to get around quick fixes like that.

[Darkenslight]

What about this form of Protection?

Protection from converted mana cost less than Green Knight's power?

Would that help at all?

[Matt]

The problem is that CMC is really flavorless. It's pretty hard to explain why getting hit with a freaking Lightning Bolt is a 'small spell' but Ember Shot is a 'big spell'. (a pile of lukewarm embers being way less scary that a bolt of lightning) Or for that matter why he should be immune to Psychatog but not Chimney Imp.

If you want to beat STP, just make it untargetable, which green already does quite often. You just have to accept that it's really hard to design cards for eternal formats; you pretty much have to just make cards for lesser formats and trust that something will trickle down.

[The Atog Lord]

The mechanic, flavor-wise, could be that the Knight is unconcerned about anything trivial. In other words, the knight has a destiny to die in a grand, heroic way. In a novel, a heroic character might die, but it wouldn't be to a small Goblin just like all the other Goblins he's killing. Instead, he would die at the hands of maybe a dragon, or perhaps some great spell. This card attempts to reflect that flavor. The Green Knight can be defeated, but it won't be to a simple Lightning Bolt spell that any mage can cast. If you want him dead, you need to save up for the Embershot; casting Embershot is actually a pretty big deal in a game, and so his demise would be more meaningful.

Likewise, Green Knight wouldn't waste his time with the same Rancor that and Kird Ape could have. But Shiv's Embrace would be more to his liking.

[Liam-K]

The mechanic, flavor-wise, could be that the Knight is unconcerned about anything trivial. In other words, the knight has a destiny to die in a grand, heroic way. In a novel, a heroic character might die, but it wouldn't be to a small Goblin just like all the other Goblins he's killing. Instead, he would die at the hands of maybe a dragon, or perhaps some great spell. This card attempts to reflect that flavor. The Green Knight can be defeated, but it won't be to a simple Lightning Bolt spell that any mage can cast. If you want him dead, you need to save up for the Embershot; casting Embershot is actually a pretty big deal in a game, and so his demise would be more meaningful.

Likewise, Green Knight wouldn't waste his time with the same Rancor that and Kird Ape could have. But Shiv's Embrace would be more to his liking.

Clearly you haven't read A Song of Ice and Fire.  Sooo many "what?!  dead?  for real?" moments.

For flavor purposes, I think flavor text is going to have to play a role in making this card make sense.  I like the unconcerned by anything trivial idea, now we have to come up with a short quote that explains that and sounds green.  Also, don't call it green knight.  He's nothing like the Green Knight in la morte d'arthur (classic cycle of King Arthur stories.  Gets his head chopped off and then puts it back on, among other things).

[Anusien]

The mechanic, flavor-wise, could be that the Knight is unconcerned about anything trivial. In other words, the knight has a destiny to die in a grand, heroic way. In a novel, a heroic character might die, but it wouldn't be to a small Goblin just like all the other Goblins he's killing. Instead, he would die at the hands of maybe a dragon, or perhaps some great spell. This card attempts to reflect that flavor. The Green Knight can be defeated, but it won't be to a simple Lightning Bolt spell that any mage can cast. If you want him dead, you need to save up for the Embershot; casting Embershot is actually a pretty big deal in a game, and so his demise would be more meaningful.

Likewise, Green Knight wouldn't waste his time with the same Rancor that and Kird Ape could have. But Shiv's Embrace would be more to his liking.

That sounds very white or partially red, not green.

[Norm4eva]

Concur with Anusien.  I don't think Green is a color which concerns itself with heroism in that fashion; Green's dominating mentality seems to be "what's good for the forest is good for everything" and this brings a spite of unnatural things.  Green's malevolence toward artifice is a fine expression of this.
For what it's worth, of the 405 Instants in the game that say "target creature" only about 50 of them can actually target this guy.  Around 65 Sorceries.  About 20 Auras.  Creatures I couldn't really search since to date there's 4444 creatures that have seen print - my compy doesn't like large numbers - but we can conjecture pretty effectively in regard to the number of creatures with CMC > 4 are worth playing in a given format.  The point is, this guy has protection from a large part of the playable game and ends up giving answers to Green that it doesn't deserve.  Using CMC just swiss army knifes the hell out of this guy.

[zimagic]

Rumour season has this card in FS:

"White: (one is a 1/1 lifelink + protection from converted mana cost 3+)"

So how many people here work in Wizards R&D?