[New Deck] Oath of Korlis

[Guli]

Allright, first of all i want to say this is not just another fish deck i am presenting. I have plenty of fish versions I play and test and have fun with that i keep for myself. I would not post a deck unless i thought i had real potential.

So in other words i see this deck as a competetive type 1 pile!

For a long time i tried making something out of a black based fish deck with white splash. The problem was the lack of a good draw engine (blue). Confidants alone won't cut it. And without a good draw through your deck ur topdeck mode very fast. Sure you will disrupt the opponent heavily the first 2 turns and with some luck (a confidant that survived) you could keep the disruption going. But how many times have you lost to a tutor that topdecks Tinker or Yaw. Will or something else that turns the game?
And hand disruption seems good but the cards are all going to the graveyard and this doesnt mean you are safe anymore. In the old days turn 1 ritual/duress/Hymn was devestating. Now you need grave removal.
When you are running 2-3 colors with fish a crucible/strip|waste lock is pretty hard to play against.
I gave up on my black fish a while ago... untill they printed

 
Extirpate

Split Second.
Choose target card in a graveyard other than a basic land. Search its owner's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that card and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

This card fills up the weak spots that i described above and does more than that at the same time. This card gave me reason to retry my black fish. This doesn't mean all problems are solved. There is still a problem with enough deck manipulation (draw) ,board control and acceleration.

If you are not on the draw and you don't have a force you in your hand will lose to a turn 1 storm kill. This goes for every deck. Some decks running force could stop the turn 1 kill but mostly a duress is thrown at you anyway before the tendrills kills you. So trying to stop this is pretty useles in my opinion. But when you get the chance to play a land you should be able to at least do something. A fish player wants to cast a creature at the same time. The only creatue that can disrupt storm and costs 1 mana is Children of Korlis.

 
Children of Korlis

Sacrifice Children of Korlis: You gain life equal to the life you've lost this turn. (Damage causes loss of life.)


Allright now i will give a list of small combinations (small combos) of cards that are used in the core deck.

Wasteland + Extirpate
Duress + Extirpate (I love to use this against Oath)
Duress + Cabal Therapy
Extirpate + Cabal Therapy
Cabal Therapy + Extirpate
Oath of Ghouls + Children of Korlis
Oath of Ghouls + Extirpate
Oath of Ghouls + Withered Wretch
Oath of Ghouls + Swords to plowshares
Oath of Ghouls + Cabal Therapy
Dark Confidant + Children of Korlis

Allright as you can see almost all the cards interract with eachoter, make on another stronger.

Draw engine

Dark Confidant

Allright 4 Confis is not enough for me. So i started looking. From here all the cards that will be mentioned are experimental but might also be added as a permanent card of the deck. Im saying this because there is still doubt and room for changes. Actually i think there should always be room for changes otherwise a deck will not evolve into something better.

At the moment i am testing out


Sylvan Library

At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

I used Necropotence  in the earlier versions because of the tremendous synergy with Children of Korlis. I am definitly not discarding Necro as an option but i am now trying out the green splash.

Sylvan Library + Children of Korlis

When people reveal a Force of Will with a confidant it hurts but still are happy they got that force wich can save the game. You can always ignore the 4 lifeloss even if you don't have Child in play if you are still at a confortable life total. But with a child in play it simply doesn't matter. There is always the chance another child is in the top 3 cards of your deck wich can be used to GAIN life instead of losing (if 2 childs are on board). With an oath in play things get even better. Also you will have a brainstorm effect each turn. This can be used to get a low cc on top to minimize the confis side-effect or to use a fetch to improve your topdeck. But the main goal is to get at least 2 cards a turn and to find the cards you need as soon as possible. Sylvan is cheaper and easier to cast than Necropotence.

Now i will make an incomplete list of what we have until now and then filling up the blanks.

4 Duress
4 Extirpate
2 Cabal Therapy

1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

4 Children of Korlis
4 Withered Wretch

4 Dark Confidant
4 Sylvan Library

2 Oath of Ghouls

2 Swords to Plowshares

34 cards


Mana base:

Here is another topic i would like to get feedback from. Recently i added Dark Rituals to gain more speed. I don't know if using rituals is correct though. Currecntly they are maindeck.

4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta


20 mana sources (+4 strip effects=24)

Maybe i could add/cut some lands I don't know. For now i will leave it as it is.

There is a space left of 5 cards

Here are the cards I am using right now,...

2 Engineered Explosives (Against Chalice)

Some info on EE. I used Null Rod in my version before but changed this because there are already so many 2 mana cost cards in the deck something had to change. EE can also shut down moxes and destroy 1 mana creatures (welder) like swords would do. AND it is an answer against the popular Warrens. Just like blue is adapting by using 1-2 echoing truth instead of 3-4 swords I am also doing this. Echoing decay is another 2 cc spell wich could find a place in Sideboard.

Now i feeld there is need for more creatures. I tried grunt,Kataki and some others but really they are another add to the list of 2 cc cards. There is simply to much. I tried Negators to have a clock but well they don't have any nasty ability. At the moment i am using

2 Auriok Salvagers

This enables me to get infinite mana and blow up evertying with CC 1 - 2 - 3 when things get nasty mid-late game. And when you draw a lot cards its nice to play them all.

I tried adding spellbombs


Necrogen Spellbomb

Sacrifice Necrogen Spellbomb: Target player discards a card.
,Sacrifice Necrogen Spellbomb: Draw a card.

I don't like the fact that this card is pretty useles alone. Sure you can cycle it but the ravenous rat effect is pretty bad imo. Sure with infite mana and reusing it infitie times with Salvager its a different story, however i don't have Trinket Mage's to find the tools i need.



Lifespark Spellbomb

Sacrifice Lifespark Spellbomb: Until end of turn, target land becomes a 3/3 creature that's still a land.
,Sacrifice Lifespark Spellbomb: Draw a card.

Well with this and EE + Salvager/Lotus i could blow up his lands and everything beneath 3 mana and attack with my 3/3 lands and Salvager. I like this but there are too many combo parts and without tutors its gonna be hard.

Some questions that pop up:

Is it worth running Salvager just for EE and the mana it can produce?
Should tutors be added in this deck? If so maybe it would be possible to play a combo game with Salvager next to the rest of the deck?
Are there any other artifacts that come to your mind that would fit with the deck's colors and gameplay?

I also would like to give a list of cards that i used. Also the inital colors i used were Black/White/Red

Hide/Seek (i miss this card a lot but i can't play 4 colors, it is possible i cut green again for this)
Orim's Chant (Didn't like it. If i leave mana open it is for Wretch and Extirpate most of the times)
Isochron Scepter (This actually worked very well but i was not completely satisfied so i tried something else)
Null Rod (Definitly works in some matchups, definitly sideboard)
Chalice of the Void + Aether Vials (Hehe, was in the red splash version. But i rather play a confi or Duress or Child turn 1) But the nasty plays that can be done with Chalice and Vials are really worth mentioning. 2 different decks though.

Night's Whisper
Skeletal Scrying
Infernal Contract
Necropotence

All addition draw that could be used.

To conclude:

There is a core part of the deck that packs a solid disruption and has a lot synergy within eachoter. The deck is still looking for an optimal draw engine next to Confidants. The Sylvan library looks promising untill now. The ability to counter topdeck plays with something that can not be countered is crucial. There is a good amount of grave removal. Should a clock be added? Or go for combo/board control? Here is the current list

Oath of Korlis

// Lands

    3 Bayou
    3 Scrubland
    1 Swamp
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Godless Shrine
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Lotus Petal

// Creatures

    4 Children of Korlis
    4 Withered Wretch
    4 Dark Confidant
    2 Auriok Salvagers

// Disruption

    4 Duress
    2 Cabal Therapy
    4 Extirpate
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Wasteland
    1 Necrogen Spellbomb

// Removal

    2 Engineered Explosives
    2 Swords to Plowshares

// Card Advantage

    4 Sylvan Library
    2 Oath of Ghouls
   

[Jank Golem]

I don't think Green is worth it just for Sylvan Library, Night's Whisper is a strong choice or even Bazaar of Baghdad which combos very nicely with Oath of Ghouls. I don't understand Salvagers in here, without Trinket Mage to go along with him he is just a 2/4 whose ability isn't used much. Dark Ritual can be really good early game as an accelerant, but its a dead draw late game and fish doesn't need the acceleration as much as combo. If you haven't checked out brainpk80's Oath of Ghouls Fish build I would, in my experience it is a very strong deck, here is the link: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30576.0.

[LotusHead]

Well with this and EE + Salvager/Lotus i could blow up his lands and everything beneath 3 mana and attack with my 3/3 lands and Salvager. I like this but there are too many combo parts and without tutors its gonna be hard.

I belive the 3/3 lands are still lands and are unaffected by EE.

I've been a fan of Conjuror's Bauble with Salvagers which lets you cycle through your deck.

As mentioned, it's hard to get any one spellbomb on the field without Trinket Mages or Oath of Druids or somethiing.

[hazard]

With the Sylvan Library being the only reason for green, perhaps Phyrexian Arena could fill the slot and keep you at two colors.  It does cost one more and requires double black.  It only gives one card verses two, but the life cost is definitely less.

[Guli]

4 Duress
4 Extirpate
2-3 Cabal Therapy
2-3 Oath of Ghouls
4 Children of Korlis
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
3-4 wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal

This card list is the essence of this deck idea. Additional draw engines, mana base, additional creatures, more disruption, other colors are all possible and open for discussion and frankly that is exactly why i opened this thread. To get inspiration from the feedback.

[Nefarias]

The problem was the lack of a good draw engine (blue).

You state that having a good draw engine is ard without blue, and then you splash a third color for the sole purpose of a draw engine, and it's green? Wouldn't something like -4 Sylvan Library, -2 Auriok Salvagers, +1 Ancestral Recall, +1 Time Walk, +4 Dimir Cutpurse be better? You state (among others) these four issues you had with deckbuilding:

1. Lack of draw engine
2. Running out of disruption (closely tied with lack of draw engine)
3. Need for more creatures.
4. Too many things cost  .

This switch would give you what is probably a better draw engine than the Libraries, give you a permanent source of disruption, increase your creature count by two, and decrease the amount of spells that cost  by three.

[Guli]

The problem was the lack of a good draw engine (blue).

You state that having a good draw engine is ard without blue, and then you splash a third color for the sole purpose of a draw engine, and it's green? Wouldn't something like -4 Sylvan Library, -2 Auriok Salvagers, +1 Ancestral Recall, +1 Time Walk, +4 Dimir Cutpurse be better? You state (among others) these four issues you had with deckbuilding:

1. Lack of draw engine
2. Running out of disruption (closely tied with lack of draw engine)
3. Need for more creatures.
4. Too many things cost  .

This switch would give you what is probably a better draw engine than the Libraries, give you a permanent source of disruption, increase your creature count by two, and decrease the amount of spells that cost  by three.

Ive won many games thanks to library. I rather have a turn 1 library than a turn 1 Confidant because a Confidant is most likely to die and doesn't go 3 cards deep. With Korlis and Oath is is worth playing sylvan library. I Will either have a confi or library in my opening hand most of the times and that is good enough for this deck.

I tried adding blue for recall and walk but that doesn't solve my biggest problem. Chalice @ 2
I could run Rushing River for bounce but this doesnt solve the draw engine. A single Ancestral isn't gonna fix it all. Dimir doesn't solve chalice either.

So i kinda need green here for draw and to do something about chalice. I am trying out Nantuko Vigilante wich is a walking naturalize without any colors needed.

3
Nantuko Vigilante

Creature - Insect Druid Mutant 3/2

Morph
When Nantuko Vigilante is turned face up, destroy target artifact or enchantment.

Note that i love to sac this for smokestack and oath it back up

It is being tested and i ll try report if it was good or not from my games against stax

[Guli]

// Lands
    4  Scrubland
    1  Godless Shrine
    1  Snow-Covered Swamp
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Wasteland
    3  Bloodstained Mire
    3  Polluted Delta
    3  Bayou

// Creatures
    4  Children of Korlis
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Withered Wretch
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    2  Nantuko Vigilante

// Spells
    4  Duress
    4  Extirpate
    2  Cabal Therapy
    3  Oath of Ghouls
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mox Pearl
    2  Engineered Explosives
    3  Sylvan Library
    2  Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Kami of Ancient Law
SB: 4  Null Rod
SB: 3  Sacred Ground
SB: 4  Seal of Cleansing

Kataki is good in this deck

[Kieranwolf]

There aren't any MB Null Rods in here, but there is artifact destruction. Could there be room for Aether Vials? Artifact destruction is a natural defense for Vial, since it kills Null Rod and Pithing Needle.

I see that you're going for a list that takes good advantage of utility creatures. That could make Children of Korlis better than Chalice (due to card synergy), but Chalice's power is almost definitely more meandeck against combo otherwise (especially with Dark Ritual to power out more counters). Children of Korlis also can't keep you from losing to 22+ goblin tokens, while Chalice is more proactive and almost certainly buys you effective turns.

If you're looking for nonblue creatures that draw you cards, why not try Heart Warden, Multani's Acolyte or even Yavimaya Elder or Wall of Mulch? They could effectively replace Sylvan Library, since the life you pay to it can't be regained with Children. You also would benefit from having more creatures in the list than almost any other deck. The disadvantage is how much mana they cost to cast every turn, which Vial would help a lot with.

I did a little searching for B, W, and G cards on SCG. For artifact/enchantment removal, I saw Harmonic Sliver, Capashen Unicorn and Viridian Zealot.

For creature removal, I saw Garza's Assassin and not much else that's cheap. My basic idea is that you could use Aether Vial and Chalice to good effect.  You might also be able to take advantage of cards that allow you to sacrifice creatures for a useful effect, such as Attrition or even Greed.

I'm sure there are good cards in other colors, too. Ideally you'd want to have a list that has at least as many advantages as UW fish (for example), or that at least has enough power and surprise factor to do well at a tournament or two. It might be hard to do that in a BWG shell, but so far you make it seem very possible.

EDIT: To wrap up the post, I think that Aether Vial and artifact hate, plus Chalice of the Void should be tested in a BWG list. You would have less of a need for Null Rod with Chalice in the main. I actually like the creature base in the last list aside from Children. Lastly, creatures either with useful sacrificial effects or combined with them make Oath of Ghouls' effect gre@ter (Ha, take that meandeck filter! XD).

[wethepeople]

To answer the lack of draw engine, several like decks use Bazaar of Baghdad. It abuses Oath of Ghouls, it feeds Grunt, and cycles redundant, or dead cards for new ones.

Also, whats with the random Salvagers combo going on in there? I'd imagine that that rarely is able to work out properly, and really isn't necessary.

[Guli]

You can sac Korlis to gain the life you lost untill you sac korlis as far as I know.

Kataki is my walking rod

My initial list was with vial/chalice wich worked fine. It is a matter of taste.

The reason i play Kataki is to improve my matchup against shop/stax decks. I really need Kataki against those decks.

Kataki is not good with Chalice/Vial

Vial is slow.

When i drop my first land i want to cast something that will either work disruptive or get my draw engine going. There are no force or daze in this deck. I don't want to sit duck by playing turn 1 vial. Sure it is playable but its not my style. I also think turn 1 duress is much stronger than turn 1 vial in this deck because of the other cards in the deck (cabal,extirpate)

This is a black heavy deck (wretch) so anything green or white will have to be with a single coloured mana. I love the viridian zealot but 2 green is too much. Besides i don't need a wakling disencant that bad. It is mainly to have an answer to Chalice and with 2 EE + 2 Nantuko Vigilante im rather safe

The sylvan has been amazing so far. However creatures with echo is something i overlooked. I will look into it thanks

Nantuko Vigilante is with morph and easy to cast. Chalice 0 stops it though but im happy if they waste a chalice to set at 0.

Children of Korlis is a turn 1 staller against storm kill unless they have a really broken hand. Later one it becomes part of my draw engine and if i have more than 2 it will generate life. With an oath and child pure creature beat down won't kill this deck. They need more and when they have more i have already other threats/removal/disruption going.

Once again i would like to point out the great synergy bewteen

duress/extirpate/wasteland/cabal/oath/children/wretch/confi

[Guli]

To answer the lack of draw engine, several like decks use Bazaar of Baghdad. It abuses Oath of Ghouls, it feeds Grunt, and cycles redundant, or dead cards for new ones.

Also, whats with the random Salvagers combo going on in there? I'd imagine that that rarely is able to work out properly, and really isn't necessary.

i was testing it hehe don't focus on it

draw engine at this moment

4 Confidant
3 Sylvan library

searching for additional options

[Kieranwolf]

You can sac Korlis to gain the life you lost untill you sac korlis as far as I know.

If you're referring to Sylvan Library: Paying life and losing life are different things. You can gain the life you spent back with two Children and another source of life loss as you pointed out, though. In case you're talking about lethal damage from goblins: Well, you're dead anyway if they swing for the win. Of course, if your storm deck opponent doesn't have enough tokens to kill you in one attack step, Children of Korlis are pretty great. But only a bad player would make the mistake of going all out for ETW and coming up short against you like that, unless you bring Children out as a surprise first game. That would be cool to see, if short-lived.

As far as Vial being expensive, well, fast mana and ritual should help. And if you were running Vial with Chalice, you can drop Chalice at 0.

There do seem to be two divergent paths here:

1. Kataki, Vigilante, Library
2. Vial, Chalice, Acolyte (other harder-to-cast creatures with solid effects)

On path 1 you are free to run all of the noncreature spells you have in the last posted list, because you have plenty of creatures already. On 2 you may need to replace some of those cards with creatures, since you'll be running Vial/Chalice and not Kataki. This calls for a tentative list.

4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
3 Multani's Acolyte
3 Viridian Zealot
3 Children of Korlis

4 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Oath of Ghouls

4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Strip effects
5 Fetch lands
1 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet

It would need tweaking and testing, but I think it's an intriguing alternative. It also looks better, but that's never something you can depend on totally. Vial decks do depend on getting Vial out first turn, but aside from that, the card choices seem solid for testing. I'm still not sold on Children of Korlis, but I don't have a better suggestion yet. This list also lacks STP and ETW, but they may end up fitting in with cuts. As for EE (and possibly Pernicious Deed), they're good, and would at least be in the SB.

You can stil test the card-drawing greenies in your list, Guli, but Library is almost certainly better. From what you say, your list wouldn't like the double green casting cost either. Wall of Mulch and Heart Warden might work too, except you'd need to keep hardcasting them, which may suck.

[wethepeople]

To answer the lack of draw engine, several like decks use Bazaar of Baghdad. It abuses Oath of Ghouls, it feeds Grunt, and cycles redundant, or dead cards for new ones.

Also, whats with the random Salvagers combo going on in there? I'd imagine that that rarely is able to work out properly, and really isn't necessary.

i was testing it hehe don't focus on it

draw engine at this moment

4 Confidant
3 Sylvan library

searching for additional options

I wasn't trying to focus on it. I was just mentioning that it is unecessary, and worth cutting. I still do not think that Library justifies adding the third color, because Bazaar, a card that builds synergy with Oath of Ghouls, and provides the draw engine that you are asking for, is far better in a deck like this. I created a BW list that I didn't test very much, but used Bazaar, Oath, and Korlis. The three cards all worked out meandeck together, and when Team Reflection is better than teamed with Dark Confidant, I had an outstanding draw engine.

Bazaar of Baghdad also allows you to make better use of Jotun Grunt, and Darkblast, a possible sideboard strategy for aggro decks.

If Kieranwolf is correct about paying life and Children of Korlis, then you have no real reason to even use Sylvan Library anymore, not that it was even worth doing in the first place.

One other suggestion, also mentioned by Kieranwolf is- use Null Rod, or Chalice of the Void. If you choose to use Aether Vial, which may be a strong card in here, then obviously Chalice is your meandeck bet, but I honestly think that you need to use one or the other.

EDIT: Team Reflection = t-eamed. It's an April Fo0l's joke created by mods.

[Kieranwolf]

Someone said 4/4 graveyard eating giant man!

Jotun Grunt + Oath of Ghouls + Withered Wretch = kinda bleah (Grunt can shut off Oath and gets sent away early with use of Wretch's ability).

However, adding in Bazaar would allow Grunt to stay around longer, and when he gets too many age counters he gets sacrificed and ends up back in your hand in short order. Could this possibly work? I mean, you're going to target your opponent's graveyard first, so you'll end up having lots more creatures in your yard until Grunt has to be sac'd.

Ok...so Grunt has bad asynergy with Oath and lesser asynergy with Wretch, while it also has  awesome synergy with Bazaar and ok synergy with Oath (again, because he's a creature). Um...complicated.

I think Grunt is worth testing, but only if you stick Bazaars in somewhere (no in a land slot, for Jebus' sake). With some good management you could really take advantage of all of that...stuff. But not too many Grunts. You would want to see 0-1 per game depending on the matchup, I think.

Phew. This thread's starting to hurt my team great brain..

[wethepeople]

Jotun Grunt isn't necessarily anti-synergistic with Oath of Ghouls, because versus Fish, and other decks that actually use creatures, you can empty their GY of creatures so you can activate Oath of Ghouls.

I actually think it should take the slot of Withered Wretch, because it is much easier to cast, has a fairly similar ability, and swings for four each turn. And yes, he does have synergy with Bazaar of Baghdad.

[Kieranwolf]

Jotun Grunt isn't necessarily anti-synergistic with Oath of Ghouls, because versus Fish, and other decks that actually use creatures, you can empty their GY of creatures so you can activate Oath of Ghouls.

I actually think it should take the slot of Withered Wretch, because it is much easier to cast, has a fairly similar ability, and swings for four each turn. And yes, he does have synergy with Bazaar of Baghdad.

True, though there's potential for play mistakes or draws that could hurt.

Wretch has one advantage over Grunt, that being his ability's greater speed (if you have extra mana after casting him that is). Otherwise Grunt does everything better, and is only a bit less synergistic with Oath.

I mean, it's not like you need to be a Yawgmoth's Will deck with creatures in order to activate Oath of Ghouls every turn, right?

[zulander]

I definitely think 4 oath of ghouls is the way to go. Having 2 in play is never a bad thing when you're talking about children of krolis coming up over and over again. And what about adding xantid swarm to the sideboard if you splash green.

[Guli]

I definitely think 4 oath of ghouls is the way to go. Having 2 in play is never a bad thing when you're talking about children of krolis coming up over and over again. And what about adding xantid swarm to the sideboard if you splash green.

In my opinion 4 is a bit too much because it still is 2 mana wich is not that cheap. I played with 2 and i felt that another was needed so i increased the number to 3 Oath.

Jotun Grunt isn't necessarily anti-synergistic with Oath of Ghouls, because versus Fish, and other decks that actually use creatures, you can empty their GY of creatures so you can activate Oath of Ghouls.

I actually think it should take the slot of Withered Wretch, because it is much easier to cast, has a fairly similar ability, and swings for four each turn. And yes, he does have synergy with Bazaar of Baghdad.

True, though there's potential for play mistakes or draws that could hurt.

Wretch has one advantage over Grunt, that being his ability's greater speed (if you have extra mana after casting him that is). Otherwise Grunt does everything better, and is only a bit less synergistic with Oath.

I mean, it's not like you need to be a Yawgmoth's Will deck with creatures in order to activate Oath of Ghouls every turn, right?

About Grunt and Wretch

Wretch is a bomb in this deck while Grunt is simply not. I have been testing this shit for weeks now and i tried a lot things that were suggested by some people in this thread, i ll come to that later.

Bazaar is slow and this deck simply can't live with the fact that bazaar doesn't produce mana. Once you get your oath (if u ever get it up) and start bazaaring you have already lost the game or are losing the game. It is too slow i don't like the idea of BaZaar in a fish deck. Stax can use it because of the mana acceleration. Ichorid because dredge. Also read this, really important, if you make the deck too dependent on oath of ghouls you will LOSE. Why do I use oath?
Not because it will win me the game when he hits the table that is for sure. I win the game with hand disruption, stripping, drawing and swinging removing key cards from the game. Oath is good as a backup plan when they used their counters to stop your creatures or they killed your creatures. So in a sence oath is card advantage.
Also note that Wretch wins the battle against opposing grunt and welder wich is really important aswel.
Oath + Sylvan/Confi + Child is also a good way to keep you alive and keep filling up your hand.

You can sac Korlis to gain the life you lost untill you sac korlis as far as I know.

If you're referring to Sylvan Library: Paying life and losing life are different things. You can gain the life you spent back with two Children and another source of life loss as you pointed out, though. In case you're talking about lethal damage from goblins: Well, you're dead anyway if they swing for the win. Of course, if your storm deck opponent doesn't have enough tokens to kill you in one attack step, Children of Korlis are pretty great. But only a bad player would make the mistake of going all out for ETW and coming up short against you like that, unless you bring Children out as a surprise first game. That would be cool to see, if short-lived.

As far as Vial being expensive, well, fast mana and ritual should help. And if you were running Vial with Chalice, you can drop Chalice at 0.

There do seem to be two divergent paths here:

1. Kataki, Vigilante, Library
2. Vial, Chalice, Acolyte (other harder-to-cast creatures with solid effects)

On path 1 you are free to run all of the noncreature spells you have in the last posted list, because you have plenty of creatures already. On 2 you may need to replace some of those cards with creatures, since you'll be running Vial/Chalice and not Kataki. This calls for a tentative list.


It would need tweaking and testing, but I think it's an intriguing alternative. It also looks better, but that's never something you can depend on totally. Vial decks do depend on getting Vial out first turn, but aside from that, the card choices seem solid for testing. I'm still not sold on Children of Korlis, but I don't have a better suggestion yet. This list also lacks STP and ETW, but they may end up fitting in with cuts. As for EE (and possibly Pernicious Deed), they're good, and would at least be in the SB.

You can stil test the card-drawing greenies in your list, Guli, but Library is almost certainly better. From what you say, your list wouldn't like the double green casting cost either. Wall of Mulch and Heart Warden might work too, except you'd need to keep hardcasting them, which may suck.

I used dark rituals last week to see how it goes. It goes great. I don't know why ive cut them again. I guess everything is still in a highly expermimental phase right now. However the core list is heavy black disruption and creatures. So im starting to think rituals will make this deck a lot faster and they should be added.

I think there are a lot more than 2 ways to go with this idea. And one way isn't necesairuly worse than the other. What we have to do is to find the best way to go. Im testing it every day so i ll keep this thread updated as long as i can.

Chalice
Vial
Null Rod

I used Vial for a long time. Mainly as a protection against Chalice 2 (most creatures are 2cc) and to avoid counters. To accelerate my next turns. But vial makes your first turns slower. Maybe a combination of dark ritual and vial is called for here. Ritual/moxes/lotus will make sure you get enough overal acceleration turn 1 and if you can sneak in a vial yea, i like that. But the problem is Kataki. I dislike the dissynerg between Kataki/Vial.
Another thing is Engineered Explosives. I want them maindeck. They kill chalice,moxes,welders,tokens and much more. So i don't want null rod maindeck. I will use it against belcher for example. Could side them in when needed they are faster that EE and any walking disenchant.

There is another thing that has been discussed in earlier threads im sure of it. Rod vs Chalice a lot insight provided in those threads. What i like to say is that vial and chalice are strong but man it requires 8 slots. For what? To stop moxes? You don't want to play chalice @ 1 you want to destroy chalice @1 and chalice @2. I rather play kataki to keep their moxes tapped or blow it all up with EE. Remember not having a chalice in your opening hand means you have something else you can disrupt with. And if you draw late game chalice what you going to do with it? Maybe set it @2 after your vial is set @2 or set it to chalice@3 sure all nice and well but i don't think deck is ment to play that lock game.

So what does this deck want? What is the gameplan? And what cards can be added to support the CORE idea of the deck? Are their big weak spots that need to be filled? For example i think Kataki is the only thing that keeps you alive against Shop decks in this deck. But Kataki changes the matchup dramaticly almost evening it.
 

[brianpk80]

There are a lot of good ideas in this thread.  In lists like these that run green, I've found Viridian Zealot to be the standard artifact/enchantment removal.  Kudos to Kieranwolf for pointing that out.  Also, as mentioned here before, Bazaar brings a lot of potential to an Oath list.  Here's one way of maximizing it:

Instead of 4 Bazaars, run 1 Bazaar, 1 Library of Alexandria, and 3-4 Weathered Wayfarers.  Wayfarers help with color screw, mana screw, fecthing Bazaar, filling your hand with land (to discard to Bazaar), and fetching utility lands you may want to use pre or post sideboard, like Tabernacle, Strip Mine, and Maze of Ith.  Note that by filling up your hand so quickly, Library is pretty easy to maintain.   

Jotun Grunt is important here not only because he beats for 4 (least important attribute actually) and keeps the Oath asymmetrical, but because as the game progresses, you will appreciate his Soldevi Digger function; he keeps everything in your graveyard coming back.  In games that go on for very long, your library will be so minimal or nonexistent that eventually you can use Grunt to determine exactly what you draw each turn (with or without Bazaaring). 

I always wanted some sort of life-gain in this type of deck.  Martyr of the Sands is pretty incredible but requires a heavy white count that warped the deck design too much.  I haven't been able to find a suitable card to fill this role.  Children/Oath is a nice soft lock, but unfortunately, if you get down below 5 or so life, the Kids can't always keep you alive, unless you have 2 Oaths and 2 Kids in graveyard... which is very conditional.

And if you go w. 3 colors (I'd recommend blue over green), Vial is extremely helpful.

As for Sylvan Library, I don't know if it belongs in here for sure but I know from experience it is a very strong and very underrated card, especially with the Children. 

-BPK

[Guli]

Ok after some more testing and tweaking and tuning i came to this list.

Oath of Korlis ²⁰⁰⁷

Disruption

4 Duress 
4 Extirpate 
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland 
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Withered Wretch 
4 Children of Korlis 


Removal

1 Elvish Scrapper 
2 Engineered Explosives 
2 Vindicate 


Card advantage

4 Dark Confidant 
3 Oath of Ghouls 
4 Sylvan Library 


Mana base

3 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

[demonic effect]

I understand the idea of a deck being streamlined and all... However, your deck seems to die from a chalice at 1 or 2... All of your disruption (besides the strips) are shut off at 1 (as well as dark rits)  While a chalice at 2 shuts off oath, your draw engine, and your creatures (besides korlis who is 1/1)... Either one kills you since your deck relies upon the disruption to stall the game long enough for your slow clock to kill and you rely upon the draw, ghoul, and creatures to ensure a decent clock/disruption to halt the game...

Overall I think the deck just doesn't have any stand alone "wow" spells that affect the game significantly enough besides a potentially lucky duress/extirpate combo which can usually be played around by any competitive deck.

[Guli]

I understand the idea of a deck being streamlined and all... However, your deck seems to die from a chalice at 1 or 2... All of your disruption (besides the strips) are shut off at 1 (as well as dark rits)  While a chalice at 2 shuts off oath, your draw engine, and your creatures (besides korlis who is 1/1)... Either one kills you since your deck relies upon the disruption to stall the game long enough for your slow clock to kill and you rely upon the draw, ghoul, and creatures to ensure a decent clock/disruption to halt the game...

Overall I think the deck just doesn't have any stand alone "wow" spells that affect the game significantly enough besides a potentially lucky duress/extirpate combo which can usually be played around by any competitive deck.

I have covered this problem from the start. 5 Maindeck answers to chalice for a reason un know

[demonic effect]

I have covered this problem from the start. 5 Maindeck answers to chalice for a reason un know

The best you did was add in EE as a 2 of...  Considering your draw engine is slow *relatively* as it always relies upon you passing the turn before you actually get to take advantage of it (sylvan isn't even a draw engine but rather a recurring BS unless you have Oath and Korlis out too...) I don't expect you'd be able to find EE quickly enough for it to help you against the tempo you've lost from ALL of your disruption being lost for those critical turns... and if you did happen to find EE and cast it, well Chalice is played as a 4 or (usually) and is combined with other pieces of disruption which can definitively screw up your plans...

The point I was making was not that there was NOTHING you could do against Chalice for 1/2...  The question is, is the tempo lost while you search for an answer (through a draw engine that doesn't cycle through cards very quickly in terms of early game/before set up) able to be recovered from considering that if a deck packs Chalice they also pack other disruption as well and will probably not be hurt by Chalice at 1 nearly as bad as you are...

Your deck has a lot of synergy within itself and seems good and all once you get it online... but to do that requires each  component to be complimented by its other parts with none of these mini combos being powerful enough to win the game.  Thus, the opponent is able to slow you down early game preventing your synergy...  Once you find your answer, then you have to set up your "combos"... and then you must maintain control for quite a few turns until you finally win...

To this end, Oath that is on the play and plays chalice for 1 turn 1 will have NO problem beating you etc... b/c they are naturally faster (as are most T1 decks) and are able to prevent your disruption and/or play around it way better than you can.

That's why Chalice at 1 or 2 kills your deck

[Guli]

No it does not kill this deck because the chalice player will not be able to cast chalice consistently either. It is a match of 3 games and I only need to win 2 games.

Kataki is in this deck for a good reason. I will either see EE or Vindicate. The lone scrapper is added and he helps out nicely aswell.

Sylvan is hardcore draw. I always take the cards early game because a confidant cause life loss aswell. And for some reason that Child comes along almost every time. Chalice at 1 slows my hand disruption down but those are sided out anyway in game 2 against shop/stax versions to get in sacred ground and oxidize.

I ll add more insight. Kataki is a known bomb against stax. An early chalice 2 gives me problems but doesn't stop my heavy disruption. All i need is an EE or Scrapper to blow things up. And you don't see a turn 1 chalice2 that often. It is actually very strong against other decks aswell AND it stops chalice 1 so the stax player will most likely cast chalice 1 first and that is why i have my arsenal of

3 Kataki
2 EE
2 Vindicate

So my defence is pretty solid against chalice i solved that problem and improved the decks gameplan at the same time. I am happy with that.

This deck deserves more attention. It is far from slow. Turn 1 Duress/confidant/child/Sylvan are all very good openings and they are followed by more dures/cabal or whatever is more suited at that time. You can cast your draw engine or add more disruption. Depends on the mathcup and your/his hand. If you play it as long as I am playing it you become very strong in those small but crucial decisions/

Don't make the mistake that you have a lot time against this deck. It can deal with both storm kills and has a lot effective grave disruption to prevent a lethal Y Winn

The cc of the spells are very low there is acceleration. My answers to chalice and storm are also effective against aggro wich can be worded as versitale. Ichorid needs a really broken turn 1-2 to win against this deck.

It can knock out an oath deck very early. A turn 1 oath can be answered with waste/ext on the orchard and suddenly the oath player has to wait untill i kill his oath with EE or Vindicate after i empty his counters with duress/Cabal/ext.

There are no bombs in the deck? Every card in this deck is solid and can be a bomb against the right deck.

There are some really interesting cards coming up in the next set that will be tested. I suggest that you playtest this for a couple of weeks and get a feeling of the deck. I am pretty sure you will change your mind. Every fish running confidant passes his turn before the card adv kicks in.

Oath playing chalice @ 1 will not be able to play a lot cards either. I am also running 4 Kami of Ancient Law in sideboard btw. Oath is not a hard mathcup wich is rare for aggro/control. If you think  the oath player will cast a turn 1 chalice@1 every game you are wrong. Look i am already way too much concerned/paranoa about chalice but in reality it really doesn't happen THAT much. Still i added the necessary answers.

Aggro/control is not ment to be super fast. It stalls/disrupts and cast 2-3 bears if it can.

That's why Chalice at 1 or 2 kills your deck

What a conclusion. Oath has a very hard time against this deck from my experience so i really can't see your point. Chalice at 1 stops recall and brainstorm wich are my targets when i disrupt. I ll just drop sylvan instead of Confidant. Or do you also have force,leak and and drains in your hand? With the perfect hand everybody can win from any deck with oath. I can invent endless ways of shutting down my aggro turn 1 but same can be done for any deck.


Those mini-combo's plus the interaction as a whole are what make a deck competetive. Usually it is my opponent that is searching for answers though.


Cycling through your deck and setting up for the win is what combo/gifts does with the draw/tutors. This is a deck focussing on consistency.

There is another option btw. Add red again over green and play with rack and ruin and hide/SeeK. Unless you can give me another 2cc drop that draws me cards every turn (or digs) im not prepared to drop the library. Library is underrated.

[demonic effect]

again... I am not saying that Chalice is unanswerable...  In fact, there is an answer to EVERY card in the game.  In addition, I apologize that I did not see your updated list (only the one at the top of the page) and was thus going off that... However even in your updated list you do not have vindicates so I am a bit confused...

The point I was making with chalice is that it slows you down long enough as you try to find answers that you are unable to then continue your game plan.  I'd gladly pay 1 every turn with a kataki out to preven you from being able to disrupt me... Vindicate (maybe you meant vigilante) will at best be an answer turn 3 and means you only play 1 threat for two turns in order to answer Chalice.  All of this means that in the meantime you have not played your draw spells or, if you have, it is probably because you have not found an answer yet...

Once you do find an answer... great... the job has been done as it has wasted both time and resources to kill a card (which I may play again since I have 4 in my deck) which means your original game plan is halted.

It can knock out an oath deck very early. A turn 1 oath can be answered with waste/ext on the orchard and suddenly the oath player has to wait untill i kill his oath with EE or Vindicate after i empty his counters with duress/Cabal/ext.

Have you actually playtested this at all?  If they play turn 1 oath, and you waste orchard, they still aren't worried b/c you are running a creature deck...  Thus either you have to play confidant or Korlis/oath/sylvan to have a consistent draw base (which leads to oath activation) or you forgo that and focus upon disruption...  Sure, you can disrupt them, but they will be able to recover MUCH faster due to draw and just refill their hand with counters.  In addition, many oath lists also run chalice and then you come into the problem with Chalice at 1 again meaning they can just counter your EE or Vindicate while laughing as all of your disruption sits in your hand.

Honestly, I don't care how individual matchups play out or if you have an answer to "everything" like you claim... the piont I'm making is that your deck won't be able to utilize all of those synergies as effectively as you'd like because of limitied resources, time, and the need to answer threats rather than play your synergies...  Your deck takes a while to develop to the point that it is "unstoppable" and honestly, the game is over before then unless you are able to create a consistent enough lock that you stop them.  Your draw engine comes on line usually by turn 3 due to a lack of acceleration, and, arguably good, does very little to stop me from just drawing more cards/answers/threats than you can deal with before that... You may EVENTUALLY draw more than me, but the tempo that I have recieved should be enough to win before then...

Either disrupt me and forgo draw meaning you will be hardpressed to recover later since I have a faster draw engine initially (not over course of game) or to set up your synergies and forgo mass disruption which means that I will just goldfish faster than you...

[Guli]

Ok after some more testing and tweaking and tuning i came to this list.

Oath of Korlis ²⁰⁰⁷

Disruption

4 Duress 
4 Extirpate 
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland 
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Withered Wretch 
4 Children of Korlis 


Removal

1 Elvish Scrapper 
2 Engineered Explosives 
2 Vindicate 


Card advantage

4 Dark Confidant 
3 Oath of Ghouls 
4 Sylvan Library 


Mana base

3 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

I see vindicate x2

Ok i understand your scepticism however you seem to underestimate the damage my disruption base can deliver.

4 Duress
4 Extirpate
4 Wasteland/Strip
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Children of Korlis
4 Withered Wretch
3 Kataki

25 cards and each will somehow disrupt any deck. When and how to use them depends on the matchup and if you simply mindlesly cast these spells and hope for the best you will lose. I have found myself in a lot of situations were i had to pick one of the above and made mistakes and learned to play the correct card. Ive been playing this for months now and the first list is nothing like the last list and i will keep changing the deck according to the meta. For now it is directed to control-combo and a bit stax. Ichorid should not cause problems if i draw my grave removal. Against aggro its a matter of who gets the creature advantage were cards like extirpate, wretch are STILL bombs with that oath.

You totally lack the insight for this deck btw and i do NOT mean this in a negative sense. I am trying to point out that the way you think this deck will work out in real game is incorrect. This deck does not look for answers it simply does its thing and keeps drawing more of that and every now and then an EE or Vindicate pops up to get rid of something that sneaked through. Chalice 1 DOES in fact force me to play my 2 cc spells wich is the whole point. Wretch stops crucible/welders/Grunts/Will... . Confi/Sylvan will find that EE and Vindicate and if it doesn't i ll just keep casting my critters and strip something pounding away your life while you are busy staring at the chalice. You can't expect to stop EE/Vindicate and counter sylvan and cast chalice in the first 3 turns.

If i extirpate orchard and cabal that token oath of druids becomes a dead card and all i have to do is occasionally cast dures/cabal/extir and finally get rid of that oath with removal. You can't say that situation is really any good for the oath player.

Just like the oath can win with turn 1 oath token i can win with duress/extirpate. I don't see how the oath player has an advantage here its a matter of who starts first and my sideboard runs oath hate wich can be used again and again with my own oath.

Sylvan/Oath/Child is important against oath yea. But i repeat, i don't think my matchup against oath is bad, it is at least even if not better.

From what i understand you are basicly saying this deck is too slow against that type 1 draw/tutor speed. Well the mana base they are creating on board while they draw and set up for the kill can be disrupted with Kataki/Waste. It will not completely shut them down like null rod would but that little disruption combined with hand disruption really knocks them out for a turn or 2. Vamp/Mystical/.. to recover will not help because extirpate lures around the corner. Gifts is less effective because of extirpate and wretch. Those early turns when i play confidant it usually gets countered by force pitching something that could have been another important spell. If they don't counter its even worse. And if they do oath of ghouls will get the critters back. You can slowly see how they empty their hands to stop your little 'combos' and then they are topdeck mode. I find that ironic cause people would call my deck 'topdeck deck' Then the wretch does its thing some extirpate here some waste there and suddenly the gameplan is completely undermined. Even those 1/1 Childs become bombs.

Btw what you think about the walking orim's chant? It would be some kinda lock with my oath

[demonic effect]

Sorry, I'm not able to read the new orim card though it does look lovely (my screen is pretty messed up so its hard to read it)... Also, I do thank you for posting the newest deck (the vigilante was in the second list)...
I guess I should playtest your deck and see the interactions however I still seem some general problems with the deck.  I am not saying that it is completely unviable, only that you put yourself in a tough situation which hopefully can be corrected.

In effect, what you've done is created a new fish deck that isn't fish (sorry for the pun)... The difference between fish and your deck, however, is that fish has the ability to cast disruption for free (FoW, daze, misdirection etc...) which allow it to also play creatures at the same time which ALSO disrupt.  This difference becomes key, because as I've stated, your synergies require a few cards to be in play at the same time to maximize the effects meaning you must make choices between either dirupting the opponent orcreating synergies...  Because your deck forces you to make the trade off, you must decide between disruption or creating synergies early on (either of which must be gamebreaking enough to give you effectively the win).  However, I do not see this as being the case...

The opponent has a greater chance of having FoW in their hand than you having duress or therapy + extirpate in your hand...  In addition, many decks pack both FoW and duress which, at the least, minimizes the damage you can do by duressing them...

Granted, Wretch can hose decks that are extremely reliant on the GY if you happen to have it in play...  Granted, Wasteland/strip can help halt the opponent from playing spells... Granted, sometimes extirpate can be golden and so on...
    The problem is can you find the needed card at the right time against the right deck in a sufficient amount of time and be able to fight through the hate in order to play it... and to that end I think the answer is no which is what I was getting at with the tempo analysis with regards to Chalice at 1...

Your draw engine, although it can be powerful, really only consists of Confidants until you get the combo for Sylvan online.  Not only does this mean you can't begin drawing cards until turn 3 at the earliest (only 1 extra card at that point) but for you to get a more powerful engine going, it wiill take many more turns/resources...  While sylvan is good as a perpetual brainstorm, and i realize you admit that you often just take the hit in order to get the extra cards, at the learliest this can occur on turn 3 and with a whopping 8 damage...  With a deck that has such a low mana curve, the difference between Confidant and Sylvan in terms of damage is astronomical and Sylvan's ability can only be played twice safely (namely draw two extra cards for 8 damage) without putting you in extreme danger...  This means that at most, you have drawn 2 extra cards by turn 3... which seems to be too few in the face of an opponents own disruption, their ability to draw into multiple threats which need to be dealt with.  Against decks that primarily run FoW and duress of their own (Gifts as example in some builds)  I don't see how you will continually apply pressure since they have much better odds of having FoW in their hand than you do of having the right hate card...

On wasteland/strip being diruption... sure, it is, but it doesn't get you very far... You sacrifice your ability to use the land on turn 2 to dirupt their mana base.  This means you may not have another land in hand, and, if you do, probably at most 1 more.  This means you have to top deck more lands to play cards like confidant which will get you to more lands sooner so you can keep playing threats and disruption.  In contrast, the deck that had a land wasted can use brainstorm, and various other forms of draw spells to try and fix the problem.  In other words, you hurt yourself more than them (unless you happen to waste a bazaar or shop)...

In terms of Korlis being a hate card... Most decks will not do massive damage to you if they see you with one in play.  However, these same decks have an amazing tendency to find bounce spells because designed to hit other hate cards like chalice etc...  This means that before they cast ToA etc... they will bounce korlis... he really isn't that much protection against these decks as he may seem...

On kataki...  Good card.  Can be devastating against stax.  Why not just play null rod? it costs two, hits more artifacts, etc...  Like kataki may stop me from getting a hard lock with stax... but if I had juggs in play against you, i'd be happy to pay 1 all day long to just have him attack you... same with mindslaver, belcher, trinisphere, etc...  Namely the cards that are the most important to hating you out will be payed for... All you do is hurt moxes and the weaker lock pieces... In those cases, null rod tends to be almost as effective (although clearly it is a different use).

So while I understand that your deck has a lot of innate power when it is working at maximum efficiency, I am curious as to how you survive turns 1-3 over the course of a long day...  Sure, some games you draw the nuts against the deck you're playing against.  However, most games you will not and, even when you do, they have as good of a chance of having FoW if not better which is probably also coupled with other hate like drain, leak, duress etc...  How do you manage to continue applying pressure when your disruption is mitigated or they do equal damage to you but they have the much better draw engine to replenish... Fish does this by having disruption that is free... yours costs mana and thus delays the draw engine or you must choose to play disruptive creatures over instant/sorcery disruption which may or may not be disruptive or you can play your draw engine (which really only counts as confidants unless you have the combo for sylvan which delays the game even further) which means no disruption turn 2, minimal disruption turn 1 (only 1 duress/therapy at most) for a minimal card advantage on turn 3...

Again, every card and every deck in the format has an answer to it... But that means so do your cards...  Your deck has a lot of in-built synergies, but the plan as a whole seems to be confused in the early game which are the most important turns of vintage.  You have to make choices between playing duress both turns 1 and 2 or playing only 1 turn 1, then playing confidant turn 2 to ensure you maintain the disruption etc... meaning that your deck isn't AS disruptive as you like to think. These trade off values put your deck in a bad position since your deck does not possess innate power, but only power derived by stopping the opponent.  However, your disruption is not strong enough by itself to mirror something like "the deck" or to create a lock like Stax requiring other cards to bolster the strength of the deck...  However, in the early game, you must choose to either disrupt the opponent (assuming you have the right cards) or to get your draw engine online to maintain the pressure...

Honestly, if I were you, I'd look into cards that are disruptive and are more static in nature like in the eye of chaos, null rod, chains of mephistopheles etc... so that they are not one shot wonders.  Additionally, throwing in a bunch of cards that individually hate out various decks makes the deck too random without a means of finding the right hate early enough which your draw engine does not do.

I definately think that there is the potential to make a drastically different looking fish type deck... but to do so you must realize why fish is good... It is good in that it is able to disrupt or draw every single hand, its hate tends to hit every deck in the format and thus has very few dead cards, and is able to create a lot of tempo by being to disrupt and cast the spells needed to maintain the pressure (like ninja) at the same time.  Fish realizes it is underpowered and thus attempts to mitigate that through hate.   You must sacrifice either playing disruption or draw early on neither of which are powerful enough to win you the game and thus does not fulfill the reason why fish is able to succeed... its too slow...

Your deck may have a great late game and may randomly get the perfect cards in hand to beat the opponent, but during the course of a tournament, it is unlikely

[brianpk80]

A few rough observations: I would decrease the non-creature disruption and increase the disruptive creature count.  I don't think you need Extirpate to make this deck flourish.  You only need 1 or 2 Sylvan Libraries because they're not cumulative.  If you're set on green, replace one of them with a Survival of the Fittest.

Finally Oath of Ghoul decks with a green base always make me want to include a 5C mana Base and Birds of Paradise or AEther Vial.  Voidmage Prodigy is probably the best lock you can have with Oath of Ghouls.  The Birds which make blue are good chump blockers and Survival fodder.  Spore Frog or Spike Weaver are strong also.  The problem is that green based Oath decks are usually a full turn slower than the best Type 1 decks out there which is why I ultimately moved to a UWB list.  Some of the grandeur creatures in Future Sight can give this deck some amazing hardlocks (especially the one with uncounterable Orim's Chant ability) and should be looked into eventually.

Good luck and I hope you're enjoying the deck.  In addition to having a lot of strong synergy, I always found Oath of Ghouls to be incredibly fun to play. 

-BPK

[demonic effect]

A few rough observations: I would decrease the non-creature disruption and increase the disruptive creature count.

Why?  creatures are some of the easiest cards to hate...  Fish is cool b/c they combine creatures with non-creature disruption. I guess the criticism can be summed up into 2 questions...

1.  Is it really smart to eliminate the few cards (granted I don't think extirpate is the right card unless its in a land destruction deck or something and or it is integral to its strategy) like duress and Therapy when most creature disruption seems to be specific...Like wretch won't wreck every deck out there... But duress will definately hurt every viable deck... as will FoW etc...

2.  Why not pick some of the stronger, non-creature pieces of disruption to supplement your creature arsenal so that you don't die to words of war, razormane masticore, massacre, slice and dice, etc... which carry over splash hate from fish, welders, ETW scare, and confidant (which you do run)...  At least by diversifying, you are less reliant upon ghoul and can use different permenants (like enchantments, instants, or sorcery's) which are harder to hate than creatures. 

However, if one is going to add a ton of creatures to a deck, I think the criteria as to whether or not one should use a creature vs. some other card is:
       A.    Does the creature perform an action that is unique?  and if so, is it something that is broken enough (ex.  Welder, psychatog, meddling mage, etc...)
       B.    does the creature perform an action that is comprable or better than the other card?  If so then 2 different variables must be taken into account...
                  1.  Is the cost difference in relationship to the ability worth paying (not only mana but also chance of card to be hated out... Ex, a 1/1 artifact creature that was similar to sylvan library would be Much  less valuable...
                  2.  Is the damage that the creature is able to provide necessary (which includes significant) enough to matter with the overall decks game plan...

These criteria are hindered, however, when one is using pretty much a solid creature deck because the value of each creature diminishes.  Having someone bring in 4 lava darts to hate out goblin welders is not such a bad tradeoff... It becomes much worse when they board in mass removal or already have integrated into their decks (like barbarian ring tech) because then all creatures are hit by the same card making the trade off great for your opponents.  There are mass artifact hate cards too which is why mud, ravager, etc... all have a hard time competing.  However, there are few mass enchantment/land/instant/sorcery hate cards and almost none of them are used.  Thus, every single disruption piece from that list increases marginally in value in comparison to an all creature disruption base.

I guess I'm just a fan of diversifying and trying to use the most resilient deck as possible.  Oath of ghouls is cool and all, and definately help the creature strat out... but if I razormane your korlis and then attack... You either lose another creature or are put on a faster clock than you can probably provide... and regardless... eventually you will have no creatures left unless the threat is taken care of... this is the same for Words of War, and doesn't even take into account mass removal like massacre...  The point is, that If i had razormane out, and you had an enchantment and creatures in play... I won't be able to remove the enchantment and thus I won't be able to remove that negative status effect even if it was the most annoying (something i'd be able to do if it were a creature)...