TO's Playing in their Tournaments

[ErkBek]

The issue got brought up in the announcement thread for my last tournament. I've organized the event and will be playing in it, but I'll be having another person collect decklists and judge the event.

it's something I felt worth posting because I feel it honestly hurts tourneys more than helps tourneys.

Let's talk about this quote.

I used to have this view too until I went to one of Vroman's events last year with Jesus Roxas. Vroman's took the cash at the register and even collected decklist! At first I felt like calling him out on it as "unfair" or something, but I restrained and didn't say a word. One of Vroman's friends was the judge and did a great job. Nothing sketchy happened, which I was a little paranoid about.

On the 3 hour drive home Jesus and I discussed the TO situation. At first we thought it seemed totally lame that he played in his own tournament, but then we realized without Vroman holding tournaments there would be no tournament scene in St. Louis. Why should Vroman not be able to play in his tournaments? If he made more than $50 he'd have people up in grill about prize support, so why not play? Roxas and I ended up going to at least 2 more of Vroman's tournaments.

There isn't always a store in the area to hold tournaments, or at least one that is okay with the risk the potential loss of  putting up a guaranteed mox. In cases like this, I see no reason for players not to take it into there own hands to continue their local vintage scene. I put together a couple win-win-win situations by providing free advertising to stores who provided me a free tournament venue and judge, resulting in great tournaments for the players that went to them.

I feel that as long as there is no conflict of interest regarding judging and the prize support is fair, then there shouldn't be a problem with the person providing the prize support playing in their tournament.

Is the real problem that the person holding the tournament is often times one of the top players in the room?

I'd be interested to hear other people's views on this.

[Lou]

I say who gives a shit if they play.

Just as you said Eric, the fact that a Vintage event is being held is probably the tits, at least here in Colorado, and I could give a fuck if a TO is playing in his own event. If it's sketch and one honestly feels the TO took advantage of the situation while playing, then don't go back, and if that type of thing is going on, no else will either.

[forests failed you]

As long as nothing sketchy happens I have no problem with it whatsoever.  If something sketchy happens I wouldn't come back for a next time.  Its really that simple.  I think that it commendable that people set up Vintage tournaments so that the format can actually be played (its been how long since the last SCG???)  Why should players have to sit on the sideline because they like the format enough to actually take the time to set up an event, advertise it, hire a judge, et cetera.  Most random Mox Tournaments don't make money.  If you bought the Mox off Ebay and ran an event with a $15 entry fee you would probably come up short.  People who run Vintage tournaments aren't doing it for the cash, they are doing it because they can break close to even and it provides an enviornment for the game to be played.

TOs battle on!  And thanks for running events and giving GRATEFUL players a place to practice our hobby, take road trips to, hang out and meet new players, and battle.. et cetera.

[iamfishman]

I agree somewhat to what was said in this thread.

#1.  We obviously want more people to take the initiative and run events for us to play in, but what incentive is there for someone to run an event, giving up a precious weekend day, only to not get to play vintage, and probabbly catch flack if they tried to make a little profit off it.
#2. Vroman, strictly from what I heard, handled his tournament in only the most fair of ways, making sure that he gained no advantage.  And c'mon, just listen to the title "Vromans apartment tournament!"  What is that k-value? Negative Thirty-two?  It's not "Grand Prix Vroman's Apartment" for god's sake.
#3. When you go to a tournamnet, you already put your trust into the TO and judging staff to be upstanding, way beyond just an istance like this.  If you trust the integrity of the pairings, rulings handed down, etc., why would you have doubt here.

All that said:
#4. I would still be wary to go to a tournament where the TO was playing if it was someone I didn't know or didn't think I could trust in the first place for the types of reasons listed in #3, not just the TO playing issue.  If Mike Long ran an event, I'm not going whether or not he is playing in it.

I feel that Eric B can be trusted from both what I heard about him, but also the fact that the guy just wants to play a few last vintage events with his friends before he calls it quits.  What is the big deal about that?

[Mr. Nightmare]

I run Legacy and Sealed Deck events at a store where I live.  Basically, that means I enter the names in Reporter, and click on who wins each round.  Then I get the packs from the store employees and hand them to the winner.  I have no qualms about entering into these events, and pay the same entry fee as anyone else.  This seems fine.

On the other hand, when I was in College I ran drafts for the gaming club.  I did all the same things I do now, but judged, took the entry fees, and played for free.  That's probably not fine.

[LotusHead]

At the end of last year's Eudemonia Series, one of our own tossed a tourney together just so we could have one (for a WorkShop)

He played in it, we didn't care.

There was no "Head Judge", (it was thrown together like 3 days before the event) we all had a blast.

Unsanctioned Vintage Tournies by definition are looser than Sanctioned Vintage Tournies.

I think that on this issue, complaining and concerns should probably be made after the fact, and after something went wrong, as opposed to before the event, when nothing has gone wrong yet.

Sure, Vroman could have had someone else handle the actual decklists, but only T1 players have the Restricted list memorized for "deckchecking purposes" and there might not have been such a T1 player availiable (not in tourney) to do so.

That being said, if I were to put up a spare Mox for a T1 tourney at the local shop (about 40 minutes from people not on Team Vacaville), I would probably not play in it, unless I was "16th" player.  (and I would be sad not playing in it, because I like T1 tournies!)

[BC]

I think the response to this question has been mostly positive (supporting Eric playing in his tournament), but I'd just like to say that Eric certainly could have liquidated his collection on ebay and probably done a lot better financially than he's going to do hosting this tournament.  I, for one, am extremely thankful that he's having this tournament.  The prize structure is ridiculously generous, to say the least.  Getting back to the topic of this thread, I hope and expect that Eric will play in this tournament.  The more great players that play in this tournament, the better tournament it will be.  If he wins back his Sapphire, he earned it.  Nobody can say it wasn't fair or that they didn't have a shot at it.  And on a personal note, I don't think I've ever beaten Eric in actualy tournament play.  I want one more shot at the title.

[Yare]

I would say that as long as nothing sketchy is done by the TO and as long as the TO does not gain an unfair advantage by playing in tournament, then it is ok.  With Vintage, I feel like the players (hopefully) are mature enough to be able to handle issues that come up at the tournament.  One thing I would specifically like to see is TO's posting every decklist if they're going to take decklists.  Otherwise, I could see TO's taking decklists and then reviewing them privately for the next tournament and therefore knowing what other people are playing.  This posting could be as simple as just having the lists available at the store at the next tournament (without actually typing them up and posting them online).

As long as there is no unfair advantage, it's fine by me.

[Twaun007]

Vintage MTG is such a small community that if a TO did something shady at an event, word would spread like wildfire! Equating to the end of them being able to hosting tourney's. That wouldn't even include the flak that they would recieve online, which is a whole different animal. I say let'em play and if anything goes wrong I can just run to my car and get my Beretta. Plus, if something happend it would give me a great excuse to say "Mess wit my paper and ya'll meet my Beretta!"

[Godder]

If the TO has arranged staff for the event and doesn't need to do anything themselves, I see no problems with that.

[Anusien]

For sanctioned tournaments, this is very clearly a no-no.  In unsanctioned tournaments, do whatever you like.

I would probably be uncomfortable with a player being the TO, especially at a store, why can't you just have a store employee be the TO?  While it is possible for paragons of the community like Becker or Vroman to do this, I think I would be wary as a general rule, and I don't think we should rely on badmouthing people who abuse the privelige.  Vintage Magic isn't, as a rule, any better than any other group of players and without sanctioning we don't even have the shield of the DCI.  The rules are set up the way they are for a reason.

[Methuselahn]

Clearly, the idea polices itself.  A tournament organizer will not abuse the system within an unsanctioned envirornment if he/she wishes to host future tournaments. 

[Machinus]

It's ok for TOs to participate if its transparent. Sometimes you need that extra person and I don't see anything wrong with it. Most people know how swiss and reporter works anyway.

[Zherbus]

When I held my Mox Tournaments back in the day (a wednesday), whenever I won, I would trickle the prizes down. So if I won first, I'd give the Mox to 2nd, the 2nd place prize to 3rd, and so forth. It was what I felt the right thing to do was, though it's by no means the absolute right thing to do.

[Norm4eva]

Here's a practice I always sort of felt was unethical but I'll relay it and let you decide.
Ever since I've been playing Magic the Cards we've had a sanctioned Type 1.5 Creature Feature event.  Hobbytown puts it together every Sunday and it used to be run by one of the store owners.  After the new B/R list came about and 1.5 became Legacy, and with the constant advancements in Goblin technology, Gobbos quickly became the dominant deck in the format, especially since it loses nothing in the translation to Creature Feature (from what I understand most other places have a unique B/R list for Creature Feature and things like E. Plague and a slew of Goblins end up on the list, but around here it's just Legacy legal).  To respond to this obvious dominance in the field, the nature of the prizes was changed such that a deck featuring a creature type which had previously won earned a mere $10 store credit, while a fresh creature type earns $50.
Anyway, long story short, the guy who is/was the TO (and owner of the store at one point) 'locked out' a number of creature types at this event by participating in, and winning, his own events.  Even if it weren't a question of ethics, doesn't this seem like a good way to dissuade people from coming down to play? 

[Dxfiler]

I haven't really gotten to share my view on this, I'm glad someone brought it up :p

<DISCLAIMER- The following post is not aimed at anyone specifcially.  No one get their panties in a bunch.>

I'm 100% against TO's playing in their own tournaments, no matter who they are or their reputation.

The simple reason being there's no real reason to play in your own tourney. 

You can be the most ethical person on the planet, but if you're advertising/organizing and putting up prizes for your own event, you're effectively the TO for that tournament.  Your face is on it and you want people to play in it, regardless of the motivation.  If you don't play in it, attendance generally won't be affected.  If you do play in it, you may be shooting yourself in the foot and not know it.

'BAH FEINSTEIN.  WHAT IS YOUR DEAL!  YOU ACT LIKE A TO PLAYING IN THEIR OWN TOURNAMENT PERSONALLY AFFECTED YOU.'

It didn't just personally affect me, it affected an entire region...

<pulls out comic book, goes to page one...>

Not too long ago, there was a very unscrupulous person who invaded the new england type one scene.  This is a real person but there's no need to bring up his name.  I assure you he did actually exist and many long time NE vintage players are going to quickly know who I'm referring to...

Anyways, a few years back said individual decided to start running type on tourneys in the area.  This individual stated that he "just wanted a place for players to play vintage." His first couple tourneys drew alot of people.  They were originally lotus tourneys and he actually did not play in them.  He had plenty
of people clearly playing in the tourney for him to win his prizes back, but he himself stayed out of the tournaments... at first.  It wasn't long before this individual stopped running giant lotus tourneys (because they sucked) and instead went for smaller, specific area targeted mox tournaments.  He brought vintage tourneys to stores that previously had never had any vintage tournaments of any kind.  His shtick was that he wanted to help out store attendance numbers in areas that were hurting.  It was clear from day one that this wasn't the case.

From the very first tournament, this individual played in his own mox tourneys.  His performances varied from week to week.  Sometimes he'd scrub out horribly, other times he'd win his own mox back... it depended if he felt the person he made finals with was beatable.  Needless to say, his mox tourneys started out very strong and gradually decreased in numbers every week.  He went from 25 people, to 20, to 15... then finally his last known mox tourney held at my local store drew 6 people.  Rich Shay, myself and this individual did a 3 way split for his mox where he naturally ended up with more than we did.  This individual didn't have any more vintage tourneys of any kind after that and has since completely disappeared from vintage, but the ripples he left by playing in his own tourneys can still be seen to this day.  The mox tourneys he played in were actually run fine, people just didn't want to deal with that specific person because he would do all the ads, slap his name on the tourneys, put up the full prizes... and then play in them.  It wasn't before long that people felt like they weren't getting their full money's worth because they always had to deal with this person.  Him playing in the tournaments just felt tainted to many, many people...and again, he didn't always do well. 

*closes comic book* <The origin of Feinstein's Rage Issue #2... on sale next month!>

My local store hasn't had a mox tourney since and some of the other stores he ran tourneys at also haven't had any since.  This individual pretty much single-handedly ruined the type one scene locally for what felt like an eternity.  That was a long time ago and thankfully many good TO's have risen up since, but I still personally make sure to never attend a tourney where the actual TO is playing in it.  Is it because I don't trust them?  No.  I trust all of the to's in my area as far as vintage is concerned.  My personal refusal to deal with a TO who plays in their own tourney is because I don't ever want to have to deal with the potential issues that arose many years ago.  Chances are that particular scenario will never, ever come up again because of just how good TO's generally are, but if they never play in their own tournament it will 100% never come up.

Now I know the scenario I presented is pretty much the nightmare one, and the majority of TO's don't run tourneys for sheer profit like that person did.  As far as I know the majority of TO's in vintage are genuinely good people...

but ask yourself, if you're a TO, do you REALLY need to play in your own tourney?

No matter who you are, how upstanding you may be... why put yourself in a potentially compromising situation?  If you aren't playing in your own tourney, there's no conflict of interest.  Period.  Pairings/prizes/decklists... none of that is an issue that could possibly turn sour if you aren't playing in your own tournament.  You can be 100% non-biased and just let the tournament run the way it was meant to be.

'BUT I WANT TO PLAY IN MY OWN TOURNEY.  I'M NOT GOING TO RUN ANY SHENANIGANS FEINSTEIN. 
I HAVE A JUDGE AND/OR STORE OWNER TO MAKE SURE OF THAT.'

No, you probably aren't going to run any shenanigans... but why place any doubt into people's minds?  Why put yourself into a potentially compromising position that could arise in your own tournament?  There are other ways to have a blast at your own tournament besides playing in it.  I know of several TO's who have alot of fun at their own tournament AND THEY DO NOT PLAY IN IT.  ELD, for a local example, does not and has not ever played in his own tournament.  He sells and buys singles when he isn't doing pairings or judge rulings.  He's also always up for a game if you ask him.  Now granted not everyone wants to buy or sell singles or have anything to do with pairings or judge rulings, that's why they have other people do it for them. 

Again, circumstances vary from person to person and region to region, but I just don't see a legitimate reason as to why TO's NEED to play in their own tourneys.  Do they have the right to?  Of course.  Maybe you don't get alot of tourneys in your area and that's the primary reason for playing.  Lots of people have already given me that reason.  My question is, if you and some friends are often the only people holding vintage tourneys in your area (as told to me from different people), what would be the big deal in just rotating the duties of TO with them?  Would it be that much of a hardship to rotate playing in tourneys as opposed to just playing in every tourney that you and your buddies organize, advertise and put up prize for?

If you couldn't tell by now, this is an issue that I feel very strongly about and I've never changed my stance on it.  I've heard many legitimate reasons as to why people would want to and do play in their own tourneys, and I respect that view, but I don't think there's ever really an essential need to do it and it's something that truly does bother me. 
 
In the long term, if you play in your own tourneys you're probably causing more harm than good and don't even know it.

- Dave Feinstein

[LotusHead]

In the long term, if you play in your own tourneys you're probably causing more harm than good and don't even know it.

- Dave Feinstein

This particular case, the Becker case, wont have a Long Term, as he is quitting Vintage/Magic.

It's not like whoever TO's SCGP9 is playing (although I did hear about that kind of thing, once.  Not a TO, just an employee).

Full Disclaimer: I don't know Feinstein, Rick Shay or unnamed person at all.  I speak from my own meta (NorCal). 

[Dxfiler]

Please understand my post on this thread has zero to do with Becker and is aimed at TO's in general.

- Dave Feinstein

[dicemanx]

Anyways, a few years back said individual decided to start running type on tourneys in the area.  This individual stated that he "just wanted a place for players to play vintage." His first couple tourneys drew alot of people.  They were originally lotus tourneys and he actually did not play in them.  He had plenty
of people clearly playing in the tourney for him to win his prizes back, but he himself stayed out of the tournaments... at first.  It wasn't long before this individual stopped running giant lotus tourneys (because they sucked) and instead went for smaller, specific area targeted mox tournaments.  He brought vintage tourneys to stores that previously had never had any vintage tournaments of any kind.  His shtick was that he wanted to help out store attendance numbers in areas that were hurting.  It was clear from day one that this wasn't the case.

From the very first tournament, this individual played in his own mox tourneys.  His performances varied from week to week.  Sometimes he'd scrub out horribly, other times he'd win his own mox back... it depended if he felt the person he made finals with was beatable.  Needless to say, his mox tourneys started out very strong and gradually decreased in numbers every week.  He went from 25 people, to 20, to 15... then finally his last known mox tourney held at my local store drew 6 people.  Rich Shay, myself and this individual did a 3 way split for his mox where he naturally ended up with more than we did.  This individual didn't have any more vintage tourneys of any kind after that and has since completely disappeared from vintage, but the ripples he left by playing in his own tourneys can still be seen to this day.  The mox tourneys he played in were actually run fine, people just didn't want to deal with that specific person because he would do all the ads, slap his name on the tourneys, put up the full prizes... and then play in them.  It wasn't before long that people felt like they weren't getting their full money's worth because they always had to deal with this person.  Him playing in the tournaments just felt tainted to many, many people...and again, he didn't always do well.

I am not sure I find anything wrong with the TOs actions in these two paragraphs. What point are you making exactly? If he was winning some of his power back, is that the "wrong" part? It seems that you're trying your hardest to suggest that he did the wrong thing by playing in his events, and that he subsequently "ruined" things for the local T1 community, without offering any evidence whatsoever. Was he manipulating pairings? Did he underhandedly make conditions favorable for him to win? Did he bribe or coerce? If not, what was the problem? It sounds like if it wasn't for him you wouldn't have any events in the first place. If the TO wins his own power back, and if he refuses to split in the finals if he's facing weaker opponents, or if he engineers a split in the T4 or T2 that ends up in his favor, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that so long as he did it fairly.

[gotinput]

"I am not sure I find anything wrong with the TOs actions in these two paragraphs. What point are you making exactly?" -Diceman

Maybe it had nothing to do with any specific actions - perhaps his attitude drove people away.

I believe I can empathize with Dave, event though I don't completely agree.  I believe his stance is about people who taint magic - driving people away, and it just happened to be a this particular TO.  Others who weren't even at these events may have been affected by the negative emotions brought home with those who went.  I had 2 people ruin casual magic in my area... 20 people quickly dwindled to 0, except by invite at someones house.

Specifically, regarding Beckers event...  Good news!  You won't have to play Feinstein in the Top8.  And don't forget to bring extra cash because I'm sure it will be like a big going away with an afterparty.

[Almighty]

In a world where playing in your own tournament is strictly taboo:


Any area that has scarce vintage tournaments would not have any player run tournaments. If all someone wanted to do was play in a vintage tourney, he would have no motivation to organize one since he wouldn't be allowed to play in it. It's one thing if his or her motivations include expanding the format by hosting them, or if hosting them itself provides enough motivation.

TOs whose motivations for hosting tournaments is direct profit have long since been alienated. Many vintage players skip out on tournaments on money gain tournaments. That esentially has axed all of those tournaments from the format, giving players less venues to play at.

Someone like Dave, or at least what I can infer from his posts, looks for a specific motivation in TOs. Fortunately for him there are two TOs that seem to match that criteria who hold tournaments within driving distance on a regular basis. Put Dave in a region with a dead or dying vintage community, like SoCal, would his opinions change? Or would that be the end of vintage for Dave Feinstein?

If the main issue is potential shadiness, that person may make a quick buck, but will never have the opportunity to hold a tournament again because of the angered player base that will result. Look at the Baldwinsville tournament from a while back.

In short, I have played vintage for around 4 years now. I've lived in 4 different states during this time. My tenure here in Iowa, and my stay in Florida have been 100% vintage free because I cannot justify a 6 hour drive to the nearest tournament (Vroman's Apartment, but I thought about going anyway). Player run tournaments are way better than no tournaments at all. Tournaments with reduced prize structure are way better than no tournament at all. I have the impression that the players have more of an opportunity to profit from a tournament by doing well than the TO does by hosting it. Which situation is optimal?

[ErkBek]

 
The simple reason being there's no real reason to play in your own tourney.

Yes there is. You want to play vintage, and in my case, other people want me to play.

I'm 100% against TO's playing in their own tournaments, no matter who they are or their reputation.

If you couldn't tell by now, this is an issue that I feel very strongly about and I've never changed my stance on it.

 
In the long term, if you play in your own tourneys you're probably causing more harm than good and don't even know it.

Dave, you must be right. Your narrow minded viewpoint on countless issues is always correct.

Let me break down your logic.

Feinstein logic
1)   Someone does something wrong once.
2)   Everyone else suffers for course of history.

Now let’s apply this to the Baldwin tournament. The TO didn’t give out the advertised prizes. Feinstein logic would say that you should never trust TO’s, in fact no one should ever trust a TO anymore. Vintage tournaments cease to exist.

[mgouthro]

As a player, I'd be thrilled to be playing in an area where there's regular tournaments. I don't much care who the organizer is, or who the judge is, as long as whatever rulings are fair and correct. All the player whining is usually from people who live in an area where there are several TOs and they get to choose multiple events they will play each month.

There's been four vintage events in my area in the last two years. Of those four, I've organized two and you're damn straight I played in both of them. It's the only reason I'd ever organize anything. How I place or whether I make money is none of your business. If someone in my area has issues with that, they are more than welcome to organize their own events and I'll play in them.

Period.

[Dxfiler]

Dave, you must be right. Your narrow minded viewpoint on countless issues is always correct.

I never said I was right.  There's no right or wrong here.  It's just clashes of viewpoints.  I could say that yours was just as narrow...

Yes there is. You want to play vintage, and in my case, other people want me to play.

Ok...so other people want you to do it... that doesn't mean it has to be done.  Plus there could be others who prefer you didn't play in your own tourney, like myself.  Again, I couldn't care less that it's you personally playing in it... it's just the principle of it.  I really didn't want to talk about your specific tourney because this was about TO's in general, but you and others keep wanting me to go there.  It's pretty obvious that nothing shady will come by you playing in your own tourney, as I've stated many times... but as also stated, by you playing in it there's an inherent conflict of interest that could always potentially come up.  It probably won't, but it could... and that's enough for me personally to not want to play in a tourney like that.

Let me break down your logic.

Feinstein logic
1)   Someone does something wrong once.
2)   Everyone else suffers for course of history.

That's shocking, you took something I said completely out of context to make me look bad.  That's never been done to me before.  :p

Here's my actual logic:

1) Bad events occur that could've been easily prevented had the TO not played in their own tourney (my earlier example)

2) Make sure not to walk into potentially bad situation again.  This occurs by making sure that any tourney I personally go to is one where the TO stays out of their own tournament.  No one 'suffers' by the TO not playing in their own tournament.  People may be disappointed, but again, there are other ways to still have a blast without playing in the actual tournament.  Would it kill you to play side games with people who want to?  This would also solve the apparent problem of being able to play against all these people who want to play you.  At the same time it would eliminate any potential issues that could arise in the tournament due to conflict of interest.  It seems like conflict of interest doesn't bother you in the slightest. 

I could turn around and do something like:

Becker Logic

1) I'm going to play in my tourney whether people like it or not.  It's my tourney.

2) I have the same shot at prizes as everyone else.  If people want prizes they should have to go through me...even if they're my own.

I know how ridiculous that sounds and that really isn't your logic.  So please don't make up 'feinstein logic' and apply it to me. 


The problem with making a controversial standpoint is people love to fight it with things I never said.  I don't know why you brought up the Baldwin tournament seeing it has zero to do with this, but for the record I don't hold that incident against TO's in the slightest.  Does it mean I'm not going to look into a TO if I'm not familiar with them?  No.  I'm still gonna cover myself and probably do a little research on them, but generally speaking I like to give people benefit of the doubt. 

In the case of TO's playing in their own tourneys, I prefer (and this is just my view, I never claimed it to be divine law) that the TO simply does not play in their own tournament... that way there's nothing to doubt them about.

- Dave Feinstein

[Zherbus]

I'm locking this topic because it's heading to the bad place. Noone is going to really form an opinion they don't already have here. Some people can play in their own event responsibly, some people cannot. Most people are smart enough to know if they are getting scammed or not. I say good luck to Kobefan and bid this thread adieu.