Uba Stax/Mud Mix

[madmanmike25]

Kotch,

Since you value your late game Crucible, look into a singleton Ghost Quarter.  Late game G.Q. becomes your Stripmine #2.  With Orb of Dreams G.Q. is pretty good, not to mention it's one more way to get rid of Bazaar and Orchards.

I like Crucible too, but sometimes you don't even get a late game.  Against Stax it's a house, but then again so is Metalworker, and sometimes he's better with all those Spheres around.  Crucible might even be too slow with so much Flash around.  Sometimes just having so many permanents is all it takes to ramp up Smokestack and those basics prevent you from a Waste lock.

Chalice is my 2nd favorite card in Stax(in any variation).  Even though I play mostly Red Stax for the Welders, I don't let that get in the way of my playing CotV@1.  MUD shouldn't worry about a few 1cc items too much.

By the way, Powder Keg and Orb of Dreams seem to fit very well in my long-term board-total-control plan. Even if the reason Cloister is played is that I haven't identified a better draw engine yet.

Good call, since you can set CotV@0 you really wouldn't be popping of Powder Keg with no counters too often so the tapped entry is of little concern.

Why not add in Memory Jar?  It's pretty broken with Metalworker, and still pretty good on its own if you NEED to see that Smokestack/Dupe/whatever.

It is a proven fact that the funniest jokes are the ones you have to explain.  Yeah, the Needle on Oath comment was just a knee-slapper.  But with Wizards screwy errata these days anything is possible...

I'll echo hex's concern that Closier can sometimes seem clunky to cast without Metalworker when all those 1-balls are around.  Concerning Top and Bazaar, don't you still need 2+ cards in hand or you lose the Top?  I think I'll test 2 Tops and 2 Bazaars in place of 4 Cloisters.  Bazaar+Crucible is pretty good on its own, and Top isn't too shabby either by itself.  I'm not worried about CotV@1.

Even though it's not Stax, I thought I would post an Aggro MUD build that doensn't use Staff of Domination or Clamp.

Critters: 13
4 Juggs
4 Metalworkers
3 Trikes
2 Karn

Metal: 22
4 Chalice
4 Thorn
2 Sphere(naturally the count is reversed in aggro)
1 Trini
3 Sword of Fire and Ice(Karn makes more creatures for you)
1 Memory Jar
4 Tangles
3 Caps(for random wins off an early Metalworker)

Mana: 25
4 Shops
4 Tombs
4 Wastes
2 City
1 Strip
1 Tolarian
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Crypt
1 Sol
1 Vault

That's just a list I have been toying with.  It's designed to be mostly pro-active.  Dupes can be easily SB'ed.  Since none of the creatures have haste, Orb might not be bad here as well.

Mike

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ dawnstrider

rightnow I am still fine tuning the list, but the general lay out includes

4 wasteland
1 stripmine
2 ghost quarter
3-4 crucible
1-2 duplicant
0 trike  (sb some if you fee the need to)
3x bazaar
3x top
4x 2ball
2 thorn
3x cap

little warning, this is being fine tuned to fit my meta, so things like cap and thorn might not be as good for you. But top bazaar should still be great, especial if you run ghost quarters like mike suggest, they've been great for months. In addition to strip mine 2-3 they allow you to shuffle if you don't like what's under your top.

[Kotch]

Since you value your late game Crucible, look into a singleton Ghost Quarter.  Late game G.Q. becomes your Stripmine #2.  With Orb of Dreams G.Q. is pretty good, not to mention it's one more way to get rid of Bazaar and Orchards.

That's a great idea! I liked Ghost Quarter when I played it with Mindslaver, but since I didn't play Mindslaver anymore, I completely forgot it...


About your Aggro MUD list, I would just let J-Cap in sideboard and get Orb of Dreams maindeck like you mentionned, which makes all blockers come into play tapped and slow down opponent in the same proactive way, it's symetric effect being minimized thanks to Metalworker. About the mana base, are 25 mana really enough? I know that Metalworker helps, but especially when you need to drop a first turn Thorn or Sphere, won't it be difficult for you sometimes to find your 4th and 5th mana? Wouldn't Mishra's Factory be a 1-or-2-of good call?

[Everrid1234]

The problem with the 1-mana-lands is that the probability of a nice start is reduced. Of course a late game Ghost Quarter can be nice, but if you face a lot of Basics I would rather cut a Wasteland for a Ghost Quarter than reducing the 2-mana-land count.
They are necessary since they are the strongest way to abuse the Spheres which are the backbone of the deck. They help a lot preventing Energy Flus to be casted.
 But you don't have to play all 9 spheres, I think the minumum is 7.

The draw engine: Hax, I respect your success in the tournaments, but the qualitative card "draw" seems to have some weaknesses, regarding that monobrown Stax has to explode during the first two turns. What also comes into my mind: Stax has no shuffeling effect what makes Top a bit worse. So you NEED the "synergy" of Top and Bazaar to dig fast enough.
Only Top is just not good enough without shuffeling, having only Bazaar is OK but without Uba Mask not really worth the lost land drop.
Since this deck counts on the 2-mana-lands, a lost landdrop is hard to compensate. Another point: Top must be replayed through spheres. I don't know how much this really matters but i didnt find Cloister to be castable so hard, maybe that's because I play many 2-mana-lands and no Bazaars.
This is my theoretical view, maybe in real games it's different.

Botlled Cloister's only disadvantage is that it makes me fear artifact mass bounce, as i wrote. I don't know what you expect, but drawing an additional card by an easily castable permanent without receiving any damage is just very good.

Ensnaring Bridge doesn't let you attack with the big ones, that is a flaw. But is shuts down attacks immediately, letting you wait for Razormane to clear the board, sacrifice it to Smokestack and attack.
Tabernacle also seems nice here. It's not so strong against decks with a solid mana base like RG Beats but it slows down, lets them tap out and so supports the mana disrution plan of Stax.
Both have advantages and disadvantages. I think all in all the Bridge is the most solid way to go. But only if you play some quantitative card draw because you need the Razormanes to start your attack later in the game.
Additional Powder Kegs, like in my SB, help to shoot all tokens.

Mishra's Factories have no place in lockdown decks since they produce 1 mana and are only good in the long run where you should have Karn or something on hand.

What are your thoughts about 4 maindeck Trisks? I think they improve the critical matches a lot.

[dawnstrider]

I dont know on hand about left over mana from mono brown stax but with red stax i tend to mid game have mana left over after emptying my hand... and since there is a semi discussion on what to use to use a draw between bottled cloister and bazaar top/mask  what about minds eye? 5 mana for an artifact whenever an opponent draws a card you may pay 1 if you do draw a card.  Ideally you dont want opponents to be casting lots of draw spells and you cant use workshop to pay the cost, but it doesnt have the oh shoot i lost my hand to that bounce spell like cloister or the 2 card dependancy that bazaar top/mask is with.

Hell with karn in the deck it becomes a 5/5 that can draw you cards


just a thought.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@everrid
you mentioned a "weakness" with top bazaar's ability to help you explode early game. I really fail to see how increasing your card quality/option at a cost of 0-2 mana IMMEDIATELY, doesn't help early game plays. It definitely seems like the optimal early game play when your option is paying FOUR mana (A cost that WILL prohibit you from play an lock piece early) for bottled cloister and then WAITING a turn in addition to the lost play that turn. Top and bazaar, both function great independently. Top also has the added bonus of being great with metalworker. I feel you may be playing these cards incorrectly (If found top bazaar to be surprisingly skill intensive at times), but I've had a lot of success with this in a very competitive field.

One the issue of missed land drop with bazaar: with the exception of playing a busted tolarian academy, your bat best loosing 3 mana if you've decided to not play a shop. I repeat this is a best. This end result will  effectively lose you 3 mana of where you would be. Had your bazaar been a bottled cloister, even if you have a total of ZERO sphere effects in play (something stax already doesn't want to do) playing it will cost you 4 mana, a shop+ mox. You have lost 4 mana of where you would be, MINIMUM. I really think your not paying enough attention to a virtual card advantage (I really can't stress the importance of this enough) by writing off top bazaar. If early game card supplement/option is what your looking for I suggest testing top bazaar.
the bottom line I keep coming to is that bottled cloister is just both more costly and slower.



@dawnstrider
Personally, I always used my left over mana with staff somehow. Untapping my attacker, drawing a card, tapping down attackers, even gaining a few live here and there gets your out of ToA range. Staff is always a debatable use of deck space, but this is the sort of thing I usually keep it as a 3 of for(being useful apart from metal worker).

[Everrid1234]

Hi again,

since blue decks are much weaker now i think this archetype is the strongest one.
I don't have much time, so i just post my current list.
I think Cloister is much better than the Bazaar-Top engine, using less slots, is strong on its own and improves quantity. It's not a turn 1 card for sure, but its a turn 2-3 card, leading you to victory if you survive the next 1-2 turns imo.
The Caps main are questionable since Flash has lost the meta. But since there is Ichorid, Oath and some combo out there i think it's one of the best answers for good game against these.
I see no weak matchups for this deck.

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Triskelion
                               
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Thorn of Amethyst   
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Jester's Cap

4 Bottled Cloister

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault

SB:

1 Jester's Cap
4 Razormane Masticore 
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crucible of Worlds (good against other Stax and Fish)
2 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Ensnaring Bridge 

EDIT (answer to Abdullah):
Of course you could exchange the Caps to Crucibles or Metalworkers or add another Sphere. Triskelions are a good thing imo, even without Flash. What are thoughts about the other cards?
Jar is of course a damn good card. Without Flash it's really playable. The only problem it has is that under a Sphere or two you can't play as many cards as you could normally, but playing a Workshop, a mox and 2 permanents after breaking the Wheel is still really good.

[Bill Copes]

Since things are going to be slower, due to the recent, zany restrictions,  shouldn't this list include metalworkers to make sure that you are unquestionably faster than your blue-based opponents?  If they don't have a counter for a  turn 1 metalworker, is their turn 2 drain really going to matter when you're vomiting your whole hand onto the board?

Why play 4 bottled cloisters over 3 cloisters, 1 memory jar?  Jar is good in ways similar to cap in the oath / ichorid matches, where you can randomly mill away win conditions  vs. oath or force the ichorid player to play more conservatively if you actually manage to see a mid-late game.

I haven't played in a post-restriction tournament yet, but are there actually any variants of tyrant oath lists running around anymore?  It seems that they were completely neutered.  So that brings up the next question:  why play maindeck caps?  Those 3 slots could be more useful cards vs. whatever the new meta is going to be.

[Everrid1234]

Some testing of this deck with Metalworkers included showed me the following:

pro:
-they let you play your whole hand on turn 2
-they are extremely strong if you play a 2nd turn Cloister since you can play now 2 permanents each turn even under 2 Spheres
-they are extremely good in a Wasteland-heavy meta

con:
-you often have to chose "metalworker or threat?" on turn 1 which is sometimes really difficult
-they are worth nothing on their own, they are just a mana source
-in the long run they are only good with permanent draw

Crucible and Metalworker help in mirrors. One of these 2 is needed imo, this is the reason for the 2 Crucibles in my SB. Cloisters also shine in the mirror.

Ichorid is a matchup which can be managed but imo the win percentage is still lower than 50% after SB'ing. Ensnaring Bridges, Tabernacles, Crypts and Triskelions for the win, Spheres should prevent spells but cost a turn.

Where are the deck's weaknesses? This is the most important question.
Storm has an auto-loss, aggro is handled by the big creatures and the nice draw, Flash is gone, control is weaker and slowed by spheres. Maybe Dragon, Ichorid and Oath? Belcher?

[Bill Copes]

- you often have to chose "metalworker or threat?" on turn 1 which is sometimes really difficult

This isn't necessarily a question, but the answer to this is somewhat dependent on what deck your opponent is playing.  Obviously, it's hard to determine this game 1, unless you've scouted, overheard the deck type from someone else, or know your opponent well enough to predetermine which archetype they play.  If they're playing a deck that can kill you turn 1, play a lock-piece .  If not, drop a worker.

The decks that do have the ability to win on turn one don't necessarily do it all the time (Drain Tendrils-esque), so even dropping a worker and hoping to go broken in their face the following turn could still be a good play.  The only deck out there that I believe consistently has the ability to win on turn one is Belcher, so play disruption first.  From what I've seen of the current meta, you can pretty much get away with plopping down a worker first turn against anything else.

As far as the weaknesses:
With the meta how it is now (Slaver, Tendrils Storm Combo, Ichorid, Shops) instead of playing jester's caps maindeck, you will probably be better off switching them out for tormod's crypts, since all of those decks are at least half dependent on their graveyards.  This also gives you main-deck answers for dragon if it pops up and improves your game one vs. ichorid dramatically.

[Everrid1234]

Hi,
I think I will not play with the Worker. It is only good as a turn 1 drop, so it has to be played 4 times, and with the 2-mana-lands I can play the expensive cards most of the time without big problems. Even in a field with a lot of control decks Metalworker is not compulsarily good (but in these matchups Stax wins 80% anyways imo). You lost a card to play. I think a sphere is better here, especially vs Tendrils turn 1. In a Wasteland-heavy field I have to count on my 2 Crucibles SB.

Tendrils-decks are no problem if they don't go off totally fast, we got Spheres, Chalice and Wastelands.
Belcher can be handled by Null Rod, but since we play a lot of Artifacts, Karn and Jester's Cap these 3 cards are better than Null Rod imo since they are very flexible.
Slaver is handled very nicely by Jester's Cap.
Null Rod stops combo and Belcher and is fast, Karn can only slow down the opponent's mana development but has the flexibility to help against more decks (aggro), Jester's Cap is nice against faster decks like Dragon or Oath (can be activated turn 2-3).
But Tormod's Crypt seems good in the meta, a modification to the SB would be: + Crypt, + Crucible -2 Tabernacle, but the Tabernacles really help against the Zombie tokens and fast aggro decks....maybe + Crypt - Razormane

No one made a comment on my 4 Triskelions so far. Don't you think they help a lot main against nearly each deck? I see it as a stopper against Ichorid, Slaver, Fish (Confidant, Kataki), all enerving small-creature-aggro. The Karns are also really good since they eat Moxen and turn my lockdown artifacts into big creatures.
Trisks kill Viashino Hereti, Welder. Against red Stax I dont think this list has a very weak matchup.
After SBing I have 4 Trisk, 4 Razormane (which kills both Welder and Heretic without using my mana resources) vs. 4 Welder and 3 Heretic (normally).

If anyone has an idea which card could be replaced by an other card which has has more effectiveness I would be highly interested.

EDIT: Who thinks this version is stronger than red Stax? Who think it is not? Why?
How do you think the combo matchup is like (against Belcher and Tendrils)?

[Everrid1234]

I have question because there is very little resonance to this thread:
Am I overseeing something? Some problem matchups for this deck? Or where does the lack of interest come from? Why is all the discussion these days about aggro decks or blue decks?
Is the Tendrils-matchup much worse for Stax than I thought? Can Drain-Tendrils easily go off via Tutor-->massbounce-->Combo in turn 5 against Stax? Does Oath beat Stax easily? Does aggro hit it hard?

I thought this deck is very strong but maybe you can correct me and tell me which the problem matchups are and why it is not played so much these days. I don't have any real life tournament practice.

[Bill Copes]

Stax hasn't been performing well since the drains have been back.  A few top 8's for mono-r shop aggro, here and there, but currently the sphere + mana denial strategy is tier 2.5, at best.  They've always shined in testing, but for whatever reason, in actual practice these decks fall apart before opponents wielding blue cards or Red Green beats.

(This is coming from a guy that's diligently stood behind, played and lost terribly with shop decks in 5 consecutive tournaments.)

[xycsoscyx]

Amen brother, I've stuck with Stax too for the past few tournaments I've played in, but haven't been faring too well lately.  The biggest problem lately is that Stax is, by nature, not a reactive deck.  Sad are the times when you want to start main decking REBs so that you can make sure things resolve (I was looking into Shusher for a while, even).

To answer your questions Everrid, the real problems for the deck are Drain decks, Oath decks, and an early Tinker->Colossus (whatever the deck that's playing it may be).  Drain decks still have the potential to get Drain online early and use your Shop mana against you.  Oath decks don't need much to win, and early Oaths aren't too difficult to cast.  Tinker->Colossus is just....well, a 11/11 Trampler swinging at you, not much else to say about that.  Tendrils combo shouldn't be too bad for Stax, especially if you're packing 9Sphere and Chalice, though the potential for their early win (or EOT Hurkyls then combo next turn) still does happen.  Agro can be difficult because Stax still tends to die to early creature beats (I always half joke that a first turn Savannah Lions is my Kryptonite), but can be manageable depending on what you have MB/SB.  Stax is a lockdown deck, one piece at a time, slowly stopping them from doing things, everything works together to that end (which usually means that whatever you draw, it's most likely going to be useful, Stax tends to be one of the most topdeck friendly decks around).

[Everrid1234]

Yes, it is not reactive (aka FoW, Drain or Bounce) and doesnt find any solution. Thats the main problem.

The only idea i have here is to maximize the threat density and try to focus on the pure lock.

My list to reach this would be:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst   
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Orb of Dreams

4 Uba Mask

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault

SB:
3 Jester's Cap
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Triskelion
3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[madmanmike25]

Yes, it is not reactive (aka FoW, Drain or Bounce) and doesnt find any solution. Thats the main problem.

Yeah, as Shop players we have few answers on the draw.  It's getting kinda old hoping to win the die roll or that the opponent has weak early plays.

My list to reach this would be:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst   
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Orb of Dreams

4 Uba Mask

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault

SB:
3 Jester's Cap
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Triskelion
3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

How do you think Uba Mask fares these days?  I haven't been playing too much, but it seems like more than a few people are playing with Ad Nauseam and aren't affected by the RFG factor.  I would almost rather see Juggernauts to add to the threat density, it's not a bad 4 turn clock in a deck with spheres and CotV.

Also, how useful is Crucible?  I usually compare this card to Metalworker especially now that the Stax mirror isn't so relevant and he sometimes comes in handy with all those sphere effects.

What gives?  Aside from that new blue card, did Shop players get the shaft this set?  When are we ever going to see another card similiar in function/purpose to Smokestack....we've had the same card pool for a while now unless I'm missing something.  It would be nice to have a new win condition rather than more delay tactics that don't provide answers.

Anyone out there been having any success with non-blue Shop decks?

Mike

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@madmanmike
in responce to your question about uba mask, I've been running it as a 2 of in my 5 color build and liking it. It's certainly better than thorn or jar at least, the majority of the time. It shuts off draw cards and control entirely, seems good.