[Deck's Discussion] - MaxxMatt : Zherbus = 4C-C : 3C-C

[MaxxMatt]

Feel free to add here any contents, list and hint about this STRONG and UNDERESTIMATED deck.

Both Zherbus, me and a lot of *old school paragon of vintage* worked hard ( at least 1.5 years ago ) on this deck.
On the other hand, at now, excluding some bad sinergies against a few opponents, this deck is a blast to play and perform really well.

Why opt for 3c or 4c?
Nothing more than style and metagame will help you decide.

This is my most recent ( hidden until now ) list I played IRL.
Feel free  ( expecially Zherbus and all the past 3c-c champions ) to add their innovations here.


Mana (24)
9 Artifact Mana ( no Vault )
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Academy
1 LoA / Stripmine

Protections (12)
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
1 Mindtwist

Board Control (6)
4 Repeal
1 Time Walk
1 Balance

Drawers & Tutor (14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Skeletal Scrying
2 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
 
Winners (4)
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Decree of Justice
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Sideboard ( 15)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sacred Ground
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sundering Titan
1 Crucible of the Worlds
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gush
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Echoing Truth



Enjoy ... and faaaar more important...Welcome Back to the Past!

[Webster]

Personally, I haven't played this deck at all in a tournament. However, intuitively, I have a few points to bring up:

- Running mana crypt is a bit questionable. The kill conditions in the deck, baring the quick tinker games, are not very fast. Couple that with the 4 skeletal scrying scrying and it seems like the deck puts itself at unnecessary risk. The addition of mana crypt doesn't seem particularly crucial either considering the highest casting cost category is four (excluding DSC) with only one card (fact or fiction). It's true that there are 10 cards with X in the casting cost, but taking into account what the cards actually are (4 repeal, 4 scrying, 1 mind twist, 1 DoJ), only 6 of them will be cast where X may be more than 2 in a normal game.

- Running 3 flooded strand and 3 polluted delta is the wrong configuration; it should be 4 delta and X strand. The decklist contains a basic swamp, therefore 4 delta should be a requirement.

- Decree of Justice is a true reminder of what 4-cc used to be. However, it just seems a bit too slow. It isn't necessarily wrong to run it over tendrils of agony for example, but doesn't appear to bring anything substancial to the deck. The deck should be able to support a tendrils since it's running 4 repeal. This point could go either way, but it is something to think about.

- Running crucible of worlds in the sideboard doesn't seem very impressive in this deck. Even if the decklist were modified to include a strip mine in place of the mana crypt, the level of synergy isn't very impressive to include it in the sideboard. Including it maindeck with 2-3 wasteland or not playing it at all seems to be better.

There are more points to bring up, but I'll wait for later.

[demonic effect]

Why play this deck over any others?  Especially in today's Meta which is dominated in large part by Gifts, Fish, and Combo?  Gifts packs a similar array of disruption in the form of FoW, Mana Drain, Duress etc... (not always together) with a better card drawer namely Gifts which allows the player to win now...  Fish is aggro (which traditionally beats control which is a reason exalted angels were added to old lists) and packs stp to deal with DSC if u get him out.... and Combo is combo which, although may be tough, can often force their game plan through and prevent your disruption through their own duress/FoW...

In essence, I don't understand why you took a list that looks similar to Gifts, added in a lot of repeal, balance, mindtwist and take out scrolls/gifts which are great draw engines that provide a signifant clock to compete against aggro as well as a way to find specific answers/cards when need be and expect it to be viable...

[Pave]

Why play this over Gifts?

3cc is a metagame deck and metagame decks are always viable.  Like Fish, a correctly metagamed control deck should give itself at least an even chance at beating Gifts (or 'the best deck').  Gifts as a card and as a deck is not so broken that no configuration of hate can beat it.  3cc has advantages over Gifts in that its Fish match-up is probably better. (By contrast, its Stax match-up may be worse, for instance.)

Generally 3cc offers strategic advantages in that it is largely unknown and so less intuitive for opponents to play against.  3cc should always be an 'ambush' (Zherbus).  It 'moves the centre of the board' by forcing a deck to do something it's not good at, be it answering a 'Moat' or rebuilding from scratch.  It makes good decks look bad by dismantling key components.  Decks today are highly vulnerable to this approach because thay are so focussed (largely due to Smmenen's influence).  3cc, by contrast, is highly resilient and posseses its own unique synergies (similar to Slaver).  Even more than Slaver it knows its role (control) with authority until the opposing deck has been disarmed.

I am still toying with some final slots but will post my full list in due course.  Zherbus's old list is still the best starting point.

I will say that I don't think Repeal is good enough.  It is inefficient in that (barring Chalice) you always pay more mana than your opponent, and only for a temporary solution too (though bounce can make your Drains more relevant, say, by giving you another shot at countering).  A deck without a combo finish needs permanant solutions, and it is not for 3cc to have a combo finish (beyond Will accumulating massive resouces) because such a finish dilutes one of 3cc's greatest strengths: a magnificent flow with next to no dead cards.  Though Repeal might flow well, it is, at best, a surgical instrument against Chalice or Null Rod making way for Will.  Such has been my experience.

Extirpate is very good.

[Zherbus]

Demonic effect is asking the right questions, I think. Believe me, as a designer of this deck for years, the first thing you ask yourself before sitting down with a concept or list is "Is this better than <whatever is tier 1>?"

Pave did a good job explaining some of the points of XcControl, but I feel I should elaborate. Firstly, I re-read my articles from two years ago and the bones of the articles are still valid. For a decent explaination of what this decks role in Vintage is, I'd give those a once over. Before really answering that question, you need to delve a bit deeper into Magic theory than "Deck X is tier 1, therefore I should just play it." Some share that view, others do not. I am of the former and have always been.

This is not to say that running tier 1 decks is a no-no. I was on the Necro train during black summer. I played ProsperBloom in the Mirage era. Fires and Rebels in the Masques/Invasion timeframe. Affinity in the Mirrodin Standard. It goes on... I ran those decks because it was the easy choice. Some decks were too broken not to play, and others were just good choices. However, None of them let me lean on my playskill (and therefore milk the most out of my testing) enough to be a favorite going into any given tournament. There's a difference between knowing your deck, knowing it's match-ups, being a good player and playing an entirely different game of Magic every game to win.

Brian Demars Control Slaver deck, like XcControl achieves this, where as (in current Vintage) PitchLong, Gifts (at least) do not. When I played 3 or 4cControl in the past, it wasn't because it was a tier 1 deck. It was because I stood a better chance playing my ass off with it, than simply running (give or take 2-3 cards) the same deck everyone else ran. I may have mentioned this years ago, but it's been a while so listen to my theory:

Every deck has ratings based off different qualities that make up a winning tournament experience.

A decks power. A decks resiliancy. A decks playskill level. A decks playskill cap.

If I take a deck like Belcher, on a scale of 1-10 it would probably look like so: 9, 2, 4, 4. It's fast as hell, folds like a cheap tent, not-to-hard to pilot, but doesn't let you milk you Magic decision making skills for all it's worth. *

A hard look at standard (meaning not anything overly techy) Gifts might yield: 7, 7, 5, 6. It's pretty damn powerful, but there are faster decks. It's packing disruption for both protecting it's strategy and stopping others. It's a moderate deck to pilot in terms of difficulty. Finally, it's tricky to an extent to pilot because it involves decisions early on (what to counter) that can make or break the game, though the options are limited.  *

From my experience with XcControl would be: 5, 7, 8, 9. It's not explosive, in fact it often wins small. By virtue of being a powered deck, it has the standard brokeness that a Yawgmoth's Will can pack. It's built around being resiliant, by virtue of running many solutions and the standard counterspell gambit. It's one of the harder decks you'll learn to pilot because of every play being a balacing act. And finally, it lets you milk every bit of experience with testing and playskill you have to pull out wins.

So for example, looking at the three decks on the surface (using only the first two values), Belcher is the most powerful, but very fragile (9,2). Gifts is very solid with a good deal of power and resiliancy (7,7). And finally, 3cControl is the weakest in power and doesn't have anymore resiliancy than Gifts has (5,7). Therefore, out of the three, Gifts is the logical choice.

Look deeper, and you'll see that Belcher doesn't make up in what it lacks in resiliancy in playskill catagory. Gifts isn't that much flexible, but 3cControl gives an unseen edge of being able to use the pilot to an advantage. Combine this with the fact that if (and I realize I am oversimplifying this to make a point) 60% of the field came to the same conclusion about gifts (7,7 looks the best after all). 30% may make the conclusion that Belcher is the deck to play (a 9 is quite impressive). With 60% of the matches you play potentially being mirror matches (and with a skillcap being only a 6), how do you really rate your chances?

With a 6, there's only so much being a good player can do. You can play a teched out version of Gifts and have an edge, or you can play 3cC (which has no choice but to be teched out) and have a good shot, since you won't be vulnerable to the Gifts hate (because the other 40% is knowing they are playing Gifts).

I hope I was articulate enought to get my point across. Thanks for reading the diatribe anyway.

*The numbers may be off, but for arguements sake...

[Yare]

This deck looks like a ton of fun to play.

Any particular reason you couldn't run Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens as a 1-of?  I guess I feel like any deck packing Will nowadays should be running at least one storm card. 

[demonic effect]

I whole heartedly agree with Zherbus...  I am not saying that 3c or 4c control are bad decks by any means.  But what I'm seeing is a deck that is almost identitical to Gifts or, at the least, similar enough that the hate against gifts will also probably apply accurately against this deck.  Gifts runs tinker/dsc (hate is the same)..  Yawgwill into something explosive (more explosive in gifts)..  The one difference is Decree but that is being mitigated by empty the warrens in gifts as well.

Now to the heart of what makes 3c a control deck... the disruption...  Gifts decks often run mana drain, FoW, Duress etc... (often in less numbers).  The main difference are the number of repeals, and the inclusion of balance and mindtwist...  While mindtwist can wreck, the number of misdirections are higher than ever (in part due to gifts scrolling for recall) and can destroy you if drained...  Balance is good, but Gifts just wins before it is necessary (for the most part)... regardless it is one card and not sufficient to play a deck around especially due to a lack of tutors that can get it.  And repeal... honestly, I don't know what you are returning to their hands so often?  If i return a null rod to their hand, sure, i get a turn with moxen... but that isn't significant enough of a tempo boost as my only answer to permenants considering I have a slow clock (unless i get DSC online)...  Additionally, Gifts mitigates this by having Chain of Vapor, replenish, /other generic bounce spell which can be tutored for or drawn through an incredible drawn engine...

Here comes to the main reason why Gifts is better...  Gifts rates a "7" on the clock because of the draw engine.  the difference between the two decks engines are Skeletal scryings for gifts (usually played at same mana cost or close to it) and the inclusion of FoF and cunning wish for Merchant scrolls.  In this particular deck, the Scrolls are much more valuable in terms of acting as tutors for answers (similar function but cheaper than wish) and draw as many cards as FoF (on average) for cheaper with scroll->recall... 

In other words, while I understand the viability of 3c and 4c control... I agree with zherbus that they ahve to be metagamed correctly to not only avoid splash hate but also so that they can work on his little 4 step planning system...  The problem is that this version doesn't seem viable b/c you are using arguably a worse draw engine, to achieve the same win condition, and are packing a minimal differenc in disruption.

[Zherbus]

Demonic, I agree... of course I was addressing 3cControl as I built it in general, not the specific list presented here.

[Ufactor]

I remember that the last time Zherbus chose not to have 3cc as his flagship deck (which has only happened a handful of times since the beginning of magic), it was because he grew tired of constantly being one step behind the metagame.  This was due to an environment that was constantly fluxuating on a weekly basis - being prepared to face a field of fish and combo, only to face d4rg0n and stax, or vice versa.  Is this still true?  How much is this still a limiting factor for this deck?  How much does the viability of this deck still depend on having the right answers during the right week, at the right event?

[Zherbus]

There was two times in the 2004-2005 time-frame that I actually left the deck at home in favor of other decks.

Time #1 was Control Slaver. I did basically what the deck wanted me to do. Brian Weissman said in an old Duelist magizine interview back in '96 when asked why he was so successful, "Don't play a deck that plays itself." Control Slaver, as it was then, basically did that (note, ffy's last decklist is MUCH different). You drew a ton of cards, you did sexually violating things with Welder, and you signed your round slip with "2-x". The deck had only so many options, as most deck slots were simply card-draw, counterspells, Welders, and fat artifacts (which is why I never played Tog - draw, counters, Tog). I feel I made a bad choice to play this because it was a known Tier one deck, everyone was prepared for it, and I was lacking the options to answers those preparations. Kowal got smoked by me game 1, but then just ruined me with proper sideboarding games 2 and 3 that I could do very little about. He also cursed me with Ninja tokens which was just unfair.

Time #2 was Storm Ten or SX. All of us on Meandeck had tested this deck for months and were all so impressed that we decided to go with it. We unfortunately didn't develop a good enough sideboard plan which was part of our problem. But the real problem, I felt, was that the deck was a coin flip. You either had it turn 1 or you didn't. The only input I had as a player during all of my games was whether or not I was tutoring for the right cards, casting in the right order, etc. Basically, once I played the deck the way it was supposed to be played, the rest was up to fate. I don't know about you, but fate shouldn't be the one deciding my games.

How does this relate to today? There's a list of decks-to-beat. Let's generalize and call those Gifts, Long, and Stax. The rest of the field isn't as successful or is a metagame deck. The only other metagame deck I can think of right now is Fish, which is geared to beat the decks-to-beat. I firmly believe the only difference between Fish and XcControl is that Fish runs a lot of bad* cards that work well against good cards in Vintage.

*Before all the Fish loyalists get that glazed angry look in their eyes, I define bad cards as cards that individually suck from a Type one standard. Over-costed weenie creatures, Null Rods, and Daze are individually cards that would be in the commons box if it weren't for the overall Fish archetype. The decks synergy make them all individually good.

Anyway, the cards in XcControl are all individually good. Moxen, Yawgmoth's Will, Mind Twist, Balance, Cunning Wish, Mana Drain, Skeletal Scrying, Decree of Justice are all cards that are powerful on their own in this format. Because of this, I believe that it differs from Fish in that it has no cohesive strategy that it needs to hold it together. For instance, if the mana denial aspect of Fish fails and it draws another Wasteland while staring 7 lands down on the other side of the board, those crappy cards turned good, turn bad once more. Or if Fish goes up against a new deck (say something a team unleashes at a Waterbury or a SCG), then how good are over-costed weenies against a fattie creature? 3cControl is basically: stay alive, establish dominance, then protect a win condition for a few turns to win. It's answers are diverse.

It's lack of a cohesive strategy can be a hinderance as well. Firstly, if you aren't good at the deck, you draw your hand and (like most any deck) start thinking about your path to winning. This is a deck where you should be thinking about how you're going to STOP your opponent from doing unfair things, then do unfair things to him. With Fish, you draw your hand and it's pretty straight-forward in overall strategy: disrupt your opponent while laying beats down. Get your opponent down to 0 life while throwing him curve balls.

While Fish is aggro-control, I believe it's much more aggro than control. Therefore, it's harder for the pilot to confuse it's role. Since the other control decks in Vintage through-out history have been: Mono-Blue, Tog, and Control Slaver - Vintage players aren't accustomed to playing Control in it's control role. They play it more aggressively than control should be played.

In short, to answer your question: I always believe that a properly built Control deck that is played very well, can stand on-par with the upper crust of the Vintage decks. Keeping it current involves knowing the other Vintage decks just as well, if not better than anyone you're going to play. You can't just keep track of Control deck threads. You need to read tournament reports, deck discussions, and articles to know what's up. And if you're as fortunate as I am to have a lot of Vintage connections, you HAVE to pay attention to rumors - anticipating what other people are going to bring can avoid a lot of nasty surprises.

Hope this all made sense.

[demonic effect]

Once again, I completely agree with Zherbus...  Now the next question is, is this the right time to play control?

It seems Smmenens influence has made controls job both easier and harder at the same time through streamlining...
Decks like fish succeed b/c they pack almost as much disruption as control in terms of coutners... they pack specific hate in terms of STP and null rod (limited use but even STP is included in most control lists even as a wish target) and every creature played counts as disruption or massive card advantage (ninja and bob)...  Thus, as explained by Zherbus, Fish has a pretty straight forward role in that as long as they play something (granted some choices are made) the game will be impacted.

Control, on the other hand, does not mean to constantly disrupt the opponent from EVERYTHING they do.  Rather, it attempts to stop the main threats when it matters in attempt to always stay one step ahead.  Thus, a tutor may not be countered preferring instead to counter the spell they play off the counter if it is important enough and/or answer not readily available.  Streamlining makes this job more difficult in two ways... 
     First, it speeds the game up (which is what the control deck is trying to prevent).  As such, early game threats are much more important when they lead to a turn 3-4 win as opposed to several years ago.... Unfortunately, this puts a lot of pressure on the control player since they often have to spend a lot of resources to find the answer to these threats (which is still doable especially considering counters etc...)

     The second problem only compounds the isue of the first.  the other issue with streamlining can be most clearly seen in decks like Gifts where draw is almost secondary to finding the cards now and winning (draw only being key as an enabler in terms of having enough disruption, resources available, and finding the cards that let you find your way to win now).  This is very different from years ago where cards like inuition were meant to find cards that would then let you draw a lot of cards creating overwhelming card advantage -> win...  During that time, one could then stop the draw engine and the game would effectively be slowed.  However, now, the game becomes much more complicated since draw is the enabler rather than the win card...
    Thus, a control player is left in a situation where he must either stop the draw spell (which may or may not be important in terms of finding disruption, resources, or cards to let you win) or holding off until the actual win card (like gifts) is played.  If the control player picks the first, then the opponent has the option of just using gifts then and winning...  If the control player chooses the latter, then the gifts player may have drawn into more FoW etc... and can stop you from stopping them.  With the game being much faster, wrong decisions can definately be more devastating since the control player's ability to then find an answer in time is severly limited.

However, with this in mind, streamlining definately helps control too.  The reason control falls to aggro is because of the preponderance of threats *namely every creature*...  Streamlining definitively limits the number of cards that a control player must be afraid of and need answers for.  Gifts can resolve, and then will or tinker can be countered effectively creating a huge tempo boost for control.  At the same time, streamlining tends to mean that decks have a lot of resiliency (either b/c of speed or because they have the means to find answers to your hate) which means that even this strategy is not assured.

I am not saying that control necessarily has a bad match-up against any deck in particular.  But to play control in a meta that definitively needs a LOT of GOOD answers b/c of the increase in speed of the format coupled with the complexity of decisions with very little time to correct mistakes makes control seem rather weak currently.  However, this could all change with the new set and the inclusion of the new Aven (the creature that only allows the top 4 cards of the library to be searched) into fish decks may make the meta slower again and thus control the deck to play (yay for bad, overcosted creatures in fish)... only time will tell

[zeus-online]

@ Zherbus:
How do you feel about StP right now?
The way i see it, it's basicly only good against fish and rather weak against everything else.

Last i played 3CC i had no problems with fish, and i was not playing alot of removal (2 StP, 1 Balance), it was only a matter of staying alive for X turns, then my objectively stronger cards would pound them and i would win - I was wondering if Bounce spells should completely replace StP's maindeck, leaving maybe 2 or 3 stp's in the SB (Still wish-able)

Oh and i never liked skeletal scryings as a 4-of, prefer 2 or 3 instead - Maybe with thirsts to back it up? Just writing down all the ideas i have in my head as i write

I personally think tinker/DSC is a natural fit for 3CC - Although DoJ definetly is better for the control-role.

/Zeus

[Zherbus]

Now the next question is, is this the right time to play control?

Honestly, I haven't been able to answer that myself. I'm working on a build right now, and it seems hopeful. The formula I've used in the past is that it has to have no common bad matchups. It doesn't have to be even favorable for all of them. But it has to be able, through superior play, to be better than just playing the subjective best deck. Otherwise, there's no reason not to "just play Gifts".

Right now, not only does it have to have a solid game against Long and Gifts to even think about playing, but it can't lose to Fish. We'll call this phase 1. To add to the complication, there's a healthy number of Stax variants in the global metagame (meaning, you can ignore it if it's not a regional issue). XcControl needs the disruption to deal with the early game against combo, the card draw to keep up with Gifts, and the resources to avoid Fish's hate. Then there's Stax to worry about. Nevermind Control for a minute, but this is why Vintage's barrier of ANY new archetype entry is so high.

Phase 2: Once you've covered your major bases, you have to consider other stuff like Oath, Ichorid, and Bomberman (wow, I hate that name). If you've passed phase 1, then you need to look at how bad the other matchups are. Does your measures against the decks in phase one handle the majority of what phase two has to offer? If not, do you have any room in the deck or SB to address these? If not, is it only one or two bad matchups that got you worried? Are they even metagame considerations?

I'm sorry I presented more questions than answers, but I'm trying to answer these myself still.

@zeus-online
StP is likely a necessary evil until proven otherwise, really.

As for Scryings, I've run 3 before, but every time I run 4 I have no complaints. Thirsts are weaker than poo without any artifact recursion. Scrying has always been the single best non-restricted draw spell in Vintage, and xcControl has the advantage of being one of the few decks that can afford to run them.

Tinker-DSC, every time I've used it, has always just made your good matches better. It lets you go on auto-pilot against the decks you already beat. It's crap against Control Slaver and I daresay the same for Gifts. It's not fast enough against Long, and it's really bad against a deck that relies on you having fewer permanents (Tinker makes you lose a Mox). Right now, as it was a few years ago, I just don't like it for the deck.

[zeus-online]

I've actually found tinker/DSC to be good against control slaver, control slaver can't race it aswell as decks like gifts, and you can ruin their chances to weld it by removing the card they're welding in with skeletal scrying - The only thing i really hate about tinker/DSC has been the fact that your chance of drawing DSC is equal to that of drawing tinker, and DSC is frankly the worst topdeck in the format.

/Zeus

[demonic effect]

The only thing i really hate about tinker/DSC has been the fact that your chance of drawing DSC is equal to that of drawing tinker, and DSC is frankly the worst topdeck in the format.

Honestly, DSC isn't THAT bad unless in your opening hand (which is practically a mulligan)... You have Brainstorm + Fetch to get it back into the deck or TFK and discard it to not only maximize TFK but to recycle the creature...   I am not saying that it is great but it isn't back-breaking either the way you make it seem (unless truly iin topdeck mode which should be avoided at all costs by this deck b/c then you are most likely NOT in control). 

With response to:

I've actually found tinker/DSC to be good against control slaver, control slaver can't race it aswell as decks like gifts, and you can ruin their chances to weld it by removing the card they're welding in with skeletal scrying

I think it is answered in large part by what Zherbus said when he said:

Tinker-DSC, every time I've used it, has always just made your good matches better. It lets you go on auto-pilot against the decks you already beat. It's crap against Control Slaver and I daresay the same for Gifts. It's not fast enough against Long, and it's really bad against a deck that relies on you having fewer permanents (Tinker makes you lose a Mox). Right now, as it was a few years ago, I just don't like it for the deck.

The point being that even if tinker->DSC is good against CS, it is still bad against the other decks in Phase 1 namely gifts, long, and stax... Improving one matchup (which is questionable) is not the issue... The purpose of DSC, while providing a significant clock, does not fit the roll of a fluid deck like xc control in which the cards being used are all designed to provide control of a round as well as a clock.
   Ex.  Exalted angel = clock.  It also hinders ToA plan, aggro, etc... by increasing the amount of life you possess.
   Ex.  Decree of Justice = clock.  It also adds a lot of permenants which help fight against stax and mass creatures etc...
In contrast, tinker-> DSC does not do this... It sacrifices the control element (and puts you in worse situation by sacrificing a mox) for a really fast clock (granted you are still going to use counters and stuff to protect him).  Sure, this can often win you the game.  But if the only reason that you are winning is the fast clock then that means that your initial plan of controlling the game failed.  If this is the case then that means your deck probably is not optimal for the particular meta.

This is not to say that Tinker -> DSC is bad.  Again, often it is a really good play.  However, it is not significant enough against the top 3 decks, and, in situations where it is, then control probably has already been established and another win condition like DoJ probably would have worked too with a similar effect.  Why sacrifice versatility for a slightly faster clock in a deck that is meant to have an answer to everything and balances on a fine edge between being in control and losing the game?  If the reason you are winning is b/c of tinker -> DSC then why not play Gifts?

[Sean Ryan]

In responce to where Xx control fits into the current metagame if at all,

Contrary to Zherbus' description of Slaver - I see Control Slaver as the current heir to Xxcontrol, especially when one views Slaver as expressed through Atog Lord and FFYin their designs and ability to outplay opponents.  Considering this observation, Xx Control would have to have better matchups than SLaver against the decks to beat in order for it to be a serious consideration.  The real question is whether the oppurtunity cost of forfeiting the ability go combo (in combo-control builds such Slaver) is outweighed by the versatility and flexability of a more pure control design.  What control elements would enable this?

Duress is a good start.  Having a heavy complament of Duress allows you to survive the early game against Gifts and Long. 

Cunning Wish seems on the surface to be the ideal card for Xx Control, but I wonder if running some generic answers may be better, then sideboarding into the paticulair hate.  A few ideas that come to mind are: Tormod's Crypt, Echoing Truth, Rebuild/Rack & Ruin, Fire/Ice, EE.

Trickbind is another that I think deserves more consideration - in any deck that professes to be control.  With Gifts & Long moving to Tendrils and Empty as the kill conditions of choice Trickbind seems really good, possibly even maindeck.  This way your opponent must (usually) Duress you before going off.  This will force Gifts and Long into maindecking Duress once again which will then open the oppurtunity to Waste their Seas and buy a bit more time in the process.

As far as Tinker/DSC is concerned - Empty is much superior in most matchups.  I didn't think it would be neccassary to state why but since Tinker/DSC is so seductive maybe I should.  1) Empty is one card! It single handidly improves the Stax and Fish matchup better than any single card.  It is really the nail in the coffin for Stax.  Against Gifts & Long, you win by not losing and exploit their narrow strategy gaining advantage until winning is a mere formality.  Empty is also very similaor to  Decree which has long been a proven Xx Control  staple, but is even easier to develop a little swarm of men.  I know it doesn't cycle EOT but that is a small price to pay for the gains one receives.

Another thing to consider is how important the side board is in Control, more so than in any other deck.  Sideboard discussions are often brushed asie on these  boards because everyone is playing in a slightly different meta, but I think we should try to over come this by discussing the specific meta we are designing for.

Anyway, just some thoughts.  I have always appreciated the theoretical aspects of designing XxControl and it gives me a happy sense of nostalgia.

Thanks
Sean           

[Zherbus]

Contrary to Zherbus' description of Slaver - I see Control Slaver as the current heir to Xxcontrol, especially when one views Slaver as expressed through Atog Lord and FFYin their designs and ability to outplay opponents.

Just so people don't get hung up on semantics, I did note that this was a Control Slaver build from 2004. In fact, it was the hottest thing out at the time - Intuition Slaver (which is just as I described it - all draw, counters, and big artifacts). I'm not trying to confuse it with modern, or more flexable Slaver builds. I was using it to illustrate a point. In fact, if you look at my second post in this thread I make mention of ffy's Slaver of being of a similiar quality to a deck that allows you to outplay and win small, but often.

Duress is a good start...

Right, which is why Pave and I suggest looking towards the last build of 3cControl I had as a starting point.

That build, post-board, could run 8x Counters, 4 Duress, and 4 Chalice.

A few ideas that come to mind are: Tormod's Crypt, Echoing Truth, Rebuild/Rack & Ruin, Fire/Ice, EE.

I'd be careful about cards like Tormod's Crypt. ELD explains perfectly well in his latest report, but I'll summarize. Narrow answers that come early are wasted draws. Echoing Truth is a solid Cunning Wish target, though.

Trickbind is another that I think deserves more consideration

While this and Stifle do a great job against storm, I tend to want to spend slots on preventing them from getting to the point of casting a storm spell. That said, Trickbind deserves a good hard look to see how it functions in a more general usage spot.

...ETW...

The very first day I decided to flop cards again, that was what all the rage was about. I tried it right away in my first build of 3cControl.

This really isn't the deck for it. It's not BAD, it just doesn't do what you'd expect by virtue of the way 3cControl will often play. Remember, 3cControl is a unique deck in Vintage as it's the only pure Control deck. Every time I drew it, I wished it was Decree. Everytime I was able to make an insane amount of tokens, it was because I already did a million broken things that turn... which means I didn't need a clunky sorcery to close the deal for me.

Considering this observation, Xx Control would have to have better matchups than SLaver against the decks to beat in order for it to be a serious consideration.

I saved this for last because it's important. I tried to make it clear that there's no guarentee that XcControl is even a good idea right now, but I do certainly enjoy discussing the merits of the deck and it's place in Vintage. Hell, I always enjoyed talking about the deck. I've had good results in testing so far, but it's still a small sampling. When I say that I think Control is good again, I want to be 100% confident and I want people to know I put time into making sure of that.

Right now, if I wanted to play a control deck and had no time to test and tweak to see if 3cControl is viable, I would likely play the list ffy last posted or something very close. However, I do have time. I am going to exhaust every idea possible because on the surface, my theories written out above and my experiences with the deck tell me it's worth exploring.

We'll see... Or I'll play something else!

[BreathWeapon]

Meddling Mage seems to be one of the best cards in the XcControl shell, just being able to use Force of Will, Mana Drain, Meddling Mage and Duress all in the same deck is enough to stop Grim and give Gifts absolute fits, and as long as XcControl isn't using Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will as it's win conditions, it can use Meddling Mage as surgical tools to stop the more stream lined decks from doing what they were designed to do.

In general, I don't think it's difficult to design a deck to beat Gifts and Grim, all it takes is enough disruption and a clock, the problem is being able to beat Fish and Stax with the same deck, and I'm positive that XcControl just has to fold to Ichorid unless it wants to pack a ton of Wastelands.

Tinker for Darksteel Colossus or Decree of Justice both seem to be in violation of all Zherbus' premises for XcControl, because all Gifts decks and Fish decks run for removal is Echoing Truth, and that deals with bothTinker for Darksteel Colossus and Decree of Justice, and because all Stax Decks run for removal is Goblin Welder and Slice and Dice, the second of which just PWNs you out of the game. Both of those win conditions fail to avoid splash hate for other win conditions, so I fail to see how either of them can be justified in XcControl.

Whatever happend to going aggro-control and beating down with Exalted Angel? A 4/5 Flying, Lifelink is pretty much all you need against Fish, and you can either race Goblin Tokens or put yourself out of Tendrils range.

IMO, XcControl should just be Fish with less creatures and more powerful disruption, draw and win conditions, possibly adding Chalice of the Void and some Wastelands for mana denial.

Edit: Other than Balance, which is just amazing, the only spot/mass removal I would use is Echoing Truth. If you go and read thru' Feinstein's Fish thread, you'll pretty much see every one's reason for replacing Swords to Plowshares with it.

[Pave]

Zherbus, for what it's worth I think your intuition is right and that you're time will be well spent (well, as well spent as time on Magic can ever be).

Gifts packs Merchant Scroll and Slaver Welder (and Merchant Scroll) where 3cc packs Duress.  I think 3cc wins that fight in a meta where combo greatly out-numbers Stax.  And where Gifts and Slaver pack Gifts Ungiven (and Thirst) 3cc packs Scrying.  3cc can win that fight too with the right support.  '4 Duress is a good start', and 2 Cunning Wish and even an Extirpate can feed in as well.  (Cunning Wish is a card that can appear pathetically slow and weak but when used creatively with Scrying can push 3cc over the top.  Do you grab a removed Ancestral, VT for a bomb, Gush for card advantage, free mana and a Library closer to activation, or the removal which will actually result in the most 'Time Walks'?  Playing Wish, and tutors generally, is a big part of winning with 3cc.  This is the case with other decks too but they are likely more forgiving.)  Scrying draws mana as well as business.  A problem 3cc can face is that it may find itself precisely HAVING to draw more mana when other control decks can do just as well on less.  In this respect the card advantage it provides above Gifts and Thirst can sometimes be illusory.  Good building and playing tends to make the advantage real though.  (I suspect only 24 mana souces and 6 fetches helps.  3cc seems to have the best Fact or Fictions in Vintage.)

I'm not about to change the mana base.  And these business slots are, for me, non-negotiable:

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
4 Skeletal Scrying
1 Time Walk
1 Balance
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall

And I can't imagine cutting these.

1 Mind Twist
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

All these cards have proven themselves to me time and again and won games.  This doesn't leave me a lot to play with.  I'll stick with the 2 Cunning Wish.  Every time I've cut them in place of more general removal like Repeal or even tech like Stifle or Remand I've missed them.  They can be important in helping you win control mirrors - getting you up to library or fetching a removed Ancestral or an Extirpate.  They're just too versatile - they can stop you from losing or hand you complete dominance.  So that leaves 2 Swords and your old win conditions, 3 Decree and an Old Man.  Perhaps I have to cut a Swords now given its irrelevance to Gifts and Long but God I miss it because I can't hope to draw into it now - I'll probably have to tutor for it - and my otherwise good Fish match-up just took a dive.  Doubly so if I cut Old Man of the Sea.  He was actually an incredible addition to your old build which took me a long time to appreciate: 4th win condition, 19th blue card, and what allowed Decree to push through any stand-offs.  He was the new 'Moat' whenever it mattered - Swords and counters could easily deal with the rest in time - and gave you inevitability against Fish and all sorts of aggro, and IN GAME 1.  He is still good for all these reasons.  He can't deal with Grunt but you can lean on Swords or counters there or hope to starve him out with Scrying.  Alas Gifts and Long will laugh at him.  Anyway here's what I'm currently trying, though I mix it up and Zherbus's original maindeck may STLL be better (more well-rounded).

3cc after Zherbus 17-04-07

24 Mana (16 lands, 8 accelerants)

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Library of Alexandria (>> Strip Mine)

5 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

19 blue cards (18 is tenable but 19 is better)

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Repeal (h8ing Chalice and Null Rod, 'Swords' #2, cycling v. decks that don't care)

12 black cards

4 Duress
4 Skeletal Scrying
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Extirpate (Duress #5 v control, unexpected long term stratregic gains, h8ing fast Crucible-Wasteland, gives you a fighting chance v Ichorid G1)

5 white cards

1 Balance (uba bomb, if you lose after resolving this you messed up or got really unlucky)
3 Decree of Justice (cycles, suprise removal, permanents, versatile - 4/4 Angels will win it for you sometimes)
1 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard

4 Chalice of the Void (combo h8, also beats Sligh and 10-land stompy!)
3 Serenity (resets Stax's board)
1 Massacre (or Old Man)
1 Extirpate
1 Echoing Truth (EtW tokens)
1 Disenchant (may not be needed given Repeals and ETuth)
1 Repeal (may not be needed - h8 losing to Chalice fo 0, Stax's Chalice for 2 must be answered)
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gush
1 Vampiric Tutor

PS I suspect Trickbind will prove awful.  I'm interested in Abeyance or Orim's Chant as a Wish target, though.  Post-side I've also found 2 Shadow of Doubt fine v. Gifts.

@ Breathweapon

- Meddling Mage can be good in a supplementary role (as a 2-of, say).  Drain is better turn 2.
- Extirpate > Ichorid
- If you spend a card killing my soldiers, that's card advantage for me.
- The decks against which Angel will be good also attack your mana, making her hard to flip.  In other matches she's virtually a dead draw.

[Zherbus]

BreathWeapon

Historically, Meddling Mage was never good in XcControl. It's a rarity that it's hitting turn 1, and turn 2 should be your Mana Drain turn (even if there is no Mana Drain). So earliest it should really hit the board is turn 3-4, which is just too late in Vintage. Like Empty the Warrens, it's not BAD, but you can't waste slots in Control on cards that are "not bad".

As for Ichorid, it's a phase two deck that we may have to choose to ignore. You can't make the deck beat everything, so you make it beat what you're likely going to play against. If it ever really became a problem, it's an easy deck to hate out though. We just have to see what we have left for wiggle room after taking care of the phase one decks and the upper phase two decks.

Also, like Pave said, Slice and Dice stops one Decree. That's hardly "PWN"ing someone out of the game, first of all. Secondly, it's a dedicated answer (like Tormod's Crypt). It's a dead-draw against 57 cards in XcControl. I could only HOPE decks are siding that in against me, drawing it while I draw cards and make my opponent discard. Decrees strength isn't that it makes a bunch of 1/1 dudes. Its strength is that it makes a bunch of 1/1 dudes at the EOT, at instant speed, while feeding your hand back a card for your troubles. Blow of Decree #1, suffer no consequences and get your card back. Let them bounce em or kill em, I'll just do another later. I'm control... I can take my time.

The Exalted Angel build that was dominant for a while when away because the metagame isn't Fish, Oshawa Stompy, Workshop Aggro, Workshop Slaver, Food-chain Goblins, Tog or Madness. The metagame now doesn't care if you flip her on turn 4 to hit for 4 damage and gain 4 life. It HOPES you do, because you're tapping out. Sure, it'd be a beast against Fish... but very little else. I'd consider running it in the SB, but god how I'd hate to draw her against Gifts, Stax, or Long. Ick!

Pave

Why the ETW in the sideboard? I'm curious about the Massacre too (I noticed it in CS lists too).

[Pave]

@ Zherbus

It's not an EtW, just an Echoing Truth for enemy EtW goblin tokens.  I agree with you in that I don't think it's correct in a control mirror for a deck to suddenly sideboard into aggro and throw everything into a few goblins.  It's like trying to win a control mirror with Tinker-Collosus.  I win a control mirror by being the better control deck.

Massacre is just a free Wrath of God against most Fishies.  I'm unsure if it's good enough.  It can certainly be a massive tempo play: wrath their board then Scry up a storm.  It's probably best when followed by a combo finish though.  I may prefer Old Man.  He just keeps on giving, plays best into the long game and poses a real problem for Fish decks.  If they leave or side in Swords or even Bounce to keep him at bay, the rest of their deck is weakened.  (The old Man Plan.)  I'm not attracted to Razormane Masticore because 5 is a lot to pay against a mana denial deck and he can rob you of resources if he's successfully answered.  With your old deck I had few problems beating Fish.  The 3 Swords post-board helped a lot.

The more I test Repeal the less I like it.  How many blue cards do you think is a minimum?

[Ufactor]

As for Ichorid, it's a phase two deck that we may have to choose to ignore. You can't make the deck beat everything, so you make it beat what you're likely going to play against. If it ever really became a problem, it's an easy deck to hate out though. We just have to see what we have left for wiggle room after taking care of the phase one decks and the upper phase two decks.

This is really the only point that I don't agree with.  On the contrary, Ichorid seems like a no-brainer, and almost a bye round for 3cc.  Ichorid has a limited number of threats (on average of 14 cards, counting Mishra's Factory), can't counter anything outright, and doesn't "go off" until turn three (giving you two Time Walks to tutor, scrye and wish into the perfect hand).  Game one is rough, but then StP, Extirpate and soldier tokens make the rest easy work.

[Zherbus]

I should also point out that Ichorid is the only matchup I've not tested. I don't know what to make of it one way or another, other than what I hear.

[BreathWeapon]

BreathWeapon

Historically, Meddling Mage was never good in XcControl. It's a rarity that it's hitting turn 1, and turn 2 should be your Mana Drain turn (even if there is no Mana Drain). So earliest it should really hit the board is turn 3-4, which is just too late in Vintage. Like Empty the Warrens, it's not BAD, but you can't waste slots in Control on cards that are "not bad".

As for Ichorid, it's a phase two deck that we may have to choose to ignore. You can't make the deck beat everything, so you make it beat what you're likely going to play against. If it ever really became a problem, it's an easy deck to hate out though. We just have to see what we have left for wiggle room after taking care of the phase one decks and the upper phase two decks.

Also, like Pave said, Slice and Dice stops one Decree. That's hardly "PWN"ing someone out of the game, first of all. Secondly, it's a dedicated answer (like Tormod's Crypt). It's a dead-draw against 57 cards in XcControl. I could only HOPE decks are siding that in against me, drawing it while I draw cards and make my opponent discard. Decrees strength isn't that it makes a bunch of 1/1 dudes. Its strength is that it makes a bunch of 1/1 dudes at the EOT, at instant speed, while feeding your hand back a card for your troubles. Blow of Decree #1, suffer no consequences and get your card back. Let them bounce em or kill em, I'll just do another later. I'm control... I can take my time.

The Exalted Angel build that was dominant for a while when away because the metagame isn't Fish, Oshawa Stompy, Workshop Aggro, Workshop Slaver, Food-chain Goblins, Tog or Madness. The metagame now doesn't care if you flip her on turn 4 to hit for 4 damage and gain 4 life. It HOPES you do, because you're tapping out. Sure, it'd be a beast against Fish... but very little else. I'd consider running it in the SB, but god how I'd hate to draw her against Gifts, Stax, or Long. Ick!

Pave

Why the ETW in the sideboard? I'm curious about the Massacre too (I noticed it in CS lists too).

Mana Drain isn't what it was, MD Gifts is designed to cast Gifts Ungiven into a Mana Drain with Misdirection and Merchant Scroll over powering the opponent's counter wall, Pitch Long is designed to do the exact same thing with Grim Tutor and Draw Sevens a full turn earlier and even Fish does it with Null Rod and Daze. There isn't a control, combo or aggro-control in this format that isn't designed to cast their spells thru' Drain, and if I had to choose between bluffing a Drain and casting a Mage against MD Gifts or Pitch Long, Mage would be set on Yawgmoth's Will in a second.

Both Echoing Truth and Slice and Dice are MD cards in Fish and Workshop (Slice and Dices kills 50% of Fish's creatures, all of Ichorid's creatures, Goblin Welders, Empty the Warrens tokens and it cycles just like Decree of Justice). Maybe Decree of Justice is good enough against Fish or Stax any way, but you should taken into consideration that all of the removal in this format is pointed right at your win condition.

[Zherbus]

Mana Drain pretty much what it was when I left. The top decks were Gifts, Long, Slaver, and Stax. It was good then and it's still good now. Given the choice of being able to counter a spell that would let my opponent get going and playing Meddling Mage naming a key card they may not even have, I'll choose the counter on a typical turn 2. The bonus mana is just that - a bonus that can be comverted into a tempo bonus, or in Skeletal Scryings case, cards.

Also, I'm willing to run a win condition that can be answered. I'm more worried what happens building up to when I play a win condition.

[BreathWeapon]

It doesn't matter if Gifts doesn't have Yawgmoth's Will or Long doesn't have Tendrils in its hand tho', it's the card both of those decks are designed to find and cast to win the game, and all of the rest of their cards are in the deck to achieve that objective.

[Pave]

So you name Will or Tendrils then your opponent rocks your world with every other card in their deck.  That's exaggerated but contains an essential truth.  Meddling Mage can be great in Fish when he's backed up by additional proactive disruption (particularly mana denial) and a clock.  (Mage is best used to block their outs.)  3cc plays an entirely different game.  One deck wants to avoid the end game, the other survive into it, for instance.  Honestly, Drain is one of 3cc's MVPs.  Mage is good but I think you're severly misunderstanding 3cc's role as a control deck, trying to make it into a mid-range fish deck.  3cc is not EBA.  If you think it should be then you may just want to play a different deck.

PS @Zherbus.  Extirpate tears Manaless Ichorid apart.  You hit Nether Shadow and Ichorid in which ever order their appearance dictates.  Lesser threats like Ashen Ghoul and Mishra's Factory can be taken care of in time by Swords or Decree.  You generally need to see 2 Extirpates to win.  2 post-side (along with VT) gives you at least an even chance.  Mana Ichorid may be slightly trickier, though it gives you more time to find answers.  Innovations in Ichorid post-Future Sight may demand 3 Extirpates post-side - we'll see.

[BreathWeapon]

So you name Will or Tendrils then your opponent rocks your world with every other card in their deck.  That's exaggerated but contains an essential truth.  Meddling Mage can be great in Fish when he's backed up by additional proactive disruption (particularly mana denial) and a clock.  (Mage is best used to block their outs.)  3cc plays an entirely different game.  One deck wants to avoid the end game, the other survive into it, for instance.  Honestly, Drain is one of 3cc's MVPs.  Mage is good but I think you're severly misunderstanding 3cc's role as a control deck, trying to make it into a mid-range fish deck.  3cc is not EBA.  If you think it should be then you may just want to play a different deck.

PS @Zherbus.  Extirpate tears Manaless Ichorid apart.  You hit Nether Shadow and Ichorid in which ever order their appearance dictates.  Lesser threats like Ashen Ghoul and Mishra's Factory can be taken care of in time by Swords or Decree.  You generally need to see 2 Extirpates to win.  2 post-side (along with VT) gives you at least an even chance.  Mana Ichorid may be slightly trickier, though it gives you more time to find answers.  Innovations in Ichorid post-Future Sight may demand 3 Extirpates post-side - we'll see.

What other cards in their deck? Seriously, Mage on Tendrils against combo is the definition of surviving. Those decks are so linear that if you hit their outs, they turn into completely reactive decks.

[Zherbus]

No, Pave is pretty dead-on.

Against <combo deck>, if you stop <win component> by tapping out for Mage where you could be casting Mana Drain, then <engine> will roll uninhibited, get a boat-load of cards and non-chalantly bounce the Mage back to your hand.

If you ever played Mad Libs as a kid, you can have fun with this:

Against <GIFTS>, if you stop <GIFTS UNGIVEN> by tapping out for Mage where you could be casting Mana Drain, then <DRAW SPELLS> will roll uninhibited, get a boat-load of cards and non-chalantly bounce the Mage back to your hand.

Against <LONG>, if you stop <TENDRILS OF AGONY> by tapping out for Mage where you could be casting Mana Drain, then <DRAW SPELLS, BOMBS> will roll uninhibited, get a boat-load of cards and non-chalantly bounce the Mage back to your hand.

This doesn't put Combo on the reactive, and it's just another speed bump in their path. If they can't cast Tendrils, not only can they just start "going off" but they can cast Empty the Warrens instead. How is naming Tendrils really having that much effect of them? How is that better than draining even a 2cc spell and turning that into X+2 cards with Scrying, or sinking it into a Mind Twist to net them X-2 cards on the next turn? And if you're in a position to additionally stop all of the bounce spells, through their disruption as well, then you'd have the game regardless of Mana Drain or Meddling Mage being in that spot.

Wow, I never thought in all these years I'd be defending Mana Drain in control decks... then again, I said that about Balance once upon a time.

[BreathWeapon]

Meddling Mage can't be Misdirected, so it's not as if the card is comparable to Mana Drain on a direct scale, and I'm not advocating that the deck cut Mana Drain.

That counter argument comes down to "the opponent ignores Meddling Mage and wins," and that isn't true, because it would make Meddling Mage worthless in not just XcControl but Fish as well, and Fish has gotten a lot of mileage out of Meddling Mage.

Gifts Ungiven will not use a draw spell, get a boat load of cards and bounce Meddling Mage, because Gifts Ungiven does not have a draw spell to begin with, and one of the best cards to set Meddling Mage on is Gifts Ungiven. Not to mention, if the opponent Merchant Scrolls for something on the draw, then Meddling Mage is a guaranteed pro-active counter that can't be Misdirected and establishes, an albeit small, clock on the opponent. Taking the opponent off Gifts Ungiven, or even Yawgmoth's Will, means that the deck has to assemble a Yawgmoth's Will piece meal or go for Empty the Warrens, which is as good as a free Mana Drain target and all of the removal in the deck should be able to deal with it.

Edit: This deck also has Duress at 4x, those Meddling Mages aren't blind

Pitch Long doesn't use a MD Warrens, or even a SB Warrens that I am aware of, so setting Meddling Mage on Tendrils forces them to deal with Meddling Mage in order to win. If the opponent does combo off, he has to consider whether or not Yawgmoth's Will can get the one bounce spell that can remove him in the deck, whether or not the Draw 7's can get the one bounce spell that can remove him in the deck and not draw the opponent into more cards even if it does or doesn't work, or whether or not he is going to go for Necropotence, lose 12 life, hope he draws the bounce and that he can manage to resolve it thru' a Mana Drain or Duress etc. If the opponent Grim Tutors for Yawgmoth's Will, Necropotence or Black Lotus and passes the turn, then again, Meddling Mage has an exact target and he just became a surgical Hymn to Tourach.

Edit: Meddling Mage can also be set on Dark Ritual, which is a serious annoyance for them.

Deck's can't just disregard Meddling Mage and win, because Meddling Mage sends those decks into contortions to find an answer for it or use the back door, or it removes one of their critical engines/acceleration cards and slows them to a pace the deck can deal with.

Whether or not Manadrain should be cast before Meddling Mage, that's up to the pilot, but I don't think that bluffing Mana Drain instead of casting a Meddling Mage is a good idea.

The card sees serious action in all formats thru' Extended, if it were just a matter of "ignore it and win," I doubt that it would be in SBs let alone MDs.