UBw Deadfish (Discard)

[Hanni]

Before reading this, please be advised that I'm a Legacy player and not a Vintage player. I've fooled around with Vintage a bit and read a ton of articles on the subject of Vintage Fish. From my observations, it seems as though many people do not think Fish is viable due to combo evolving into decks that are far too powerful for Fish to contain. I came up with an idea that I thought could deserve some testing... rather than try to attack the manabase with Wasteland and Null Rod (or Chalice), why not just attack their hand?

From my experiences against Combo in Legacy, discard has always been a powerful disruption tool against all sorts of combo decks. Rather than trying to attack the manabase to slow down mana production, it seems like attacking the hand would be much stronger. It not only gets rid of accelerants like Mana Drain and Black Lotus, it also gets rid of tutors and other such cards.

Looking at the UW Fish decklists, I noticed a considerable amount of synergy between the 1 drop 2/x guys and Cabal Therapy. Duress + Cabal Therapy is a fairly strong combination on it's own... pack it with 1 drop guys to sac to Therapy, Meddling Mage to abuse the fact that you're looking at your opponent's hand frequently, and Force of Will... it seems like a strong disruption package if you ask me.

By skipping on the mana denial theme, the deck can run Moxes itself (which I realize Fish lists already do anyway) to power it out as well.

Anyways, this is what I came up with for now:

UBw Fish

Lands (14)
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland

Creatures (17)
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
3 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl

Again, I'm not a Vintage Guru so I'm sure that this decklist is extremely untuned. However, I think the concept is worth testing.

I'll explain some weird choices though.

I tried to make sure the manabase had 6 fetchlands to make Brainstorm effective and I think the manabase should be able to reliably produce all 3 colors. Including Moxes, I'm only running 18 lands. This may seem problematic but since my curve is low, I'm not running Wasteland, and since I run cantrip, I think this should be fine.

Serum Visions is a staple Legacy card for Fish decks that may be terrible in Vintage. However, I've always found cantrip to be essential in aggro/control decks. Not only does it allow the deck to run a lower land count, it helps you dig for relevant cards and get rid of bad ones (like excess lands). Since the deck doesn't win extremely fast like normal combo decks, it seems like fixing topdecks should still be good in Vintage. Fish runs alot of disruption but it wants to see specific disruption cards at specific times and the extra manipulation to find those disruption cards seems very useful. Since the deck runs Moxes on such a low curve, it seems as though the extra mana sources available would be perfect to spend on cantrip. Again, this may be terrible, I'm not a Vintage Guru.

I like the 4/2 split of the 2/x beaters better because of the Legendary-ness, others may agree or disagree.

I like Demonic Tutor since it grabs anything in the deck, whether it be Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Echoing Truth, or whatever.

I discussed Duress and Cabal Therapy in the intro, but I'll go over it a bit more. 1cc discard is effecient on the manacurve and rapes the opponent's hand. This seems like it would be very strong in the format.

I tossed in Echoing Truth because it's blue and I needed to up the blue count. These were originally StP's. I read somewhere that Truth is basically as good as StP in the format so that's why they are there. Would Chain of Vapor be better?

I originally had Stifle and cut it because I felt it was a bit narrow now that the deck doesn't rely on mana denial. Should I still maindeck it? Maybe sideboard?

Would a 1-of on Strip Mine be decent to tutor for with Demonic Tutor to deal with stuff like Bazaar maindeck? I'll probably run some Pithing Needle in the sideboard...

What about a 1-of on Misdirection? I've seen several people running 1 Misdirection in their Fish lists. I'm not entirely sure how strong it is, but is it worth adding?

That's all I have for now. Thanks for reading.

EDIT: After thinking about it, it seems like Ninja of the Deep Hours or even Curiosity could easily replace Serum Visions. I'm not sure how this would effect the low land count but it seems like it would be much stronger overall for the strategy of the deck.

-3 Serum Visions
+2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
+1 Misdirection

I'll try that out and see how it works.

EDIT 2: Nevermind... I think Ninja is actually slightly bad for the deck since it bounces guys back to my hand. It's sluggish on tempo in that aspect and clashes with the fact that I want to sac them to Therapy early game. I think the Confidant's themselves should be enough raw draw power to keep me fueled and the Serum Visions help me salvage mediocre or 1-land hands. I really wanna try Serum Visions before I dismiss it... it's probably bad in Vintage, but I still want to try it.

[madmanmike25]

I'm sure there are going to be people who will tell you it is impossible to build a Fish deck without Null Rod.  I don't agree(totally), but maybe you could cut a lion or 2 for Kataki?

I will be blunt.  I don't think 18 mana sources are enough.  I don't think 20 would be enough.  Your mana base is VERY compromised in Vintage since wastelands do exist.  Getting that Isamaru on the table and having your land wasted won't win you the game.  I really think at least the lone Stripmine belongs in a Fish deck.  Sometimes you take your denial where you can get it, be it the hand or mana base.  Most Fish decks try a combination of disruption.

I also do not think Serum Vision is good enough for Vintage.  That's just my opinion, and it stems from the fact that it is sorcery.  If it tests well for you, keep it in by all means.

Personally I believe the 'better' Fish builds run wastelands and stick to 2 colors, but that is what testing is for.  Hope any of that helps, good luck and welcome to Vintage!

Mike

[Hanni]

The problem I have with Kataki is that it attacks my own manabase since I'm running 3 Moxes and a Lotus. I'll test it eventually but it seems like it's going to hurt me more than it would help since this deck does not plan to attack the opponent's manabase at all.

See... I thought 18 mana sources might be viable. It might not be. Looking at the other Fish lists, everyone seems to be running 17-8 core lands/Moxes and then the additional 4-5 lands are Wastelands and a Strip Mine. It seems like this deck has the same amount of colored mana sources with less colorless destroy lands, which I don't see as being a huge problem to the manabase. Add to that fact that this deck has more cantrip and I don't see why the manabase would be any worse. However, I wasn't sure how much of an issue Wasteland was in this format. I'm going to tweak the deck to accomodate some basic lands... but I'm still not convinced that the deck needs to run more than 18 lands/Moxes. 

The lone Strip Mine may be worth it here since I do run Demonic Tutor. Still though, I'm not sure how much 1 destroy land effect is really going to help out enough. It might be able to pick of a Bazaar or Workshop or something, but they will either play more or play other lands. Again, I'm not going to dismiss it before I test it. However, just because the deck name says Fish doesn't necessarily mean Strip Mine belongs in this list. I'm completely negating the mana denial route for the discard route. The concept may not be successful, but I'd like to try it. I think there is a good bit of synergy to be designed around the concept and I think it has potential.

Serum Visions may in fact be complete and total garbage. I still want to try it for a little bit and if it is in fact underwhelming, I'll gladly drop it for something else. I was just hoping that with such a low mana curve I could get away with casting cantrip without sacrificing my ability to cast other disruption spells or beatdown. It will keep my fueled better than simply running more disruption or beatdown though, because I've tested Legacy Fish thouroughly. It may not work in Vintage. It's the biggest eyesore on the list without a doubt and will probably end up being cut. I'm not sure that it being Sorcery speed is really the reason for why it would be bad in Vintage though... I'm not really running many other instants to stay untapped for. Most of my disruption is proactive (Duress, Therapy) and my creatures come down at Sorcery speed as well.

Fish may be better off sticking to U/W and going the mana denial route. I'm not here to try and dispute that. I'm simply attempting to see if the discard route works, and then ultimately see if it is any stronger than U/W or the other variants after a tuned list is made.

I appreciate the feedback, any and all feedback is important to me.

EDIT: To accomodate some basics, I'll try this:

-1 Tundra
-1 Scrubland
-1 Serum Visions
+1 Island
+1 Plains
+1 Swamp

This gives me a total of 19 lands, which is theoretically more colored mana than the other Fish builds, and I'm not running Null Rod to neuter my Moxes like the other Fish builds. This gives me some defense against opposing Wastelands and Null Rods. I'm still running more draw effects than most other Fish builds too, which should make the manabase sound. Hopefully this configuration works. I'm down to only 19 blue spells but I think that should still support Force of Will.

[BreathWeapon]

You need something a lot stronger than discard if the deck is going to cut the mana denial, and that isn't a good idea to begin with, considering that Stifle is the card that is holding this deck up against ETW.

There's no reason 3c Fish can't use mana denial, before Feinstein most Fish builds were 3c with Stifles.

[Hanni]

You need something a lot stronger than discard if the deck is going to cut the mana denial, and that isn't a good idea to begin with, considering that Stifle is the card that is holding this deck up against ETW.

Well, I am running 3 Echoing Truth to answer EtW along with some additional draw and Demonic Tutor. I can sideboard Stifle. I still don't see how Wasteland and Null Rod is going to be more effective for me vs EtW than making the opponent discard a bunch of cards though...

Maybe I should just cut the remaining 2 Serum Visions for Stifles then? Without a mana denial theme, Stifle just seems so narrow though (EtW or Tendrils), where Echoing Truth and discard seem so much broader.

EDIT: Maybe Sage of Epityr instead of Serum Visions since it beats and can be sac'd to Therapy? That would give me room to cut a Lion or two.

[Harlequin]

You could possibly run Shadow of Doubt.  It cantrips, and is currently good against almost every deck.  Keeping 2 mana up could be costly for this deck though ... I dunno just something to keep on the radar.

[Hanni]

How about this?

U/B/w Fish

Lands (14)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp

Creatures (18)
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl

That gives me 1 extra slot. Not sure whether it should be Misdirection, Strip Mine, StP, Echoing Truth, Ninja of the Deep Hours, Voidmage Prodigy, etc. I think I like this list alot. I'm not sure what the last card should be though.

[Aardshark]

Wouldn't mindcensor be best in a fish deck like this, with moxen & without null rod?

[BreathWeapon]

Serum Visions and Sage of Epityr are weak in this format; Daze isn't something that should be cut, it's mauling the blue card count for inferior options. instead of porting U/w/b from 1.5 to 1, just look at the decks that were ported from 1 to 1.5 and that'll give a better perspective of the format.

Even if the deck is running a full set of acceleration, it should still at least use Chalice of the Void as a one sided Null Rod and use the 3cc curve to drop bombs like Glowrider or Aven Mindcensor.

There's nothing wrong with cutting Wasteland tho', that card has bean sub par for awhile, but there is still a lot of merit in just using anti-artifact, anti-fetchland mana denial and then sphering them out of the game with Glowrider or post FS dipping into red for Magus of the Moon and Dwarven Blastminer.

Cabal Therapy isn't that great either, Fish goes thru' a lot of trouble to resolves its creatures just to go and up and sacrifice them, and most of the creatures have a prison effect, so removing them for a card in the opponent's hand is counter intuitive. Try Mesmeric Fiend if you really want more discard, those things are pretty decent when they're accelerated.

The last option is Ancient Tomb instead of Wastelands, raising the curve and letting the deck power out turn one Null Rods.

If you need some tentative lists just PM me, I've piloted Fish for awhile in this format for years.

[Hanni]

The goal here is that I want to "try" this concept because I think it has merit. I don't want to run Ancient Tomb and prison creatures, I want to try and run discard. I'm not saying that prison-style Fish is not effective. I'm saying that the intention of this thread is to focus on discard. The reason why the title of the thread is what it is... I did that to attract attention to the thread.

I looked at a list on the UW Fish. Supposedly, two UW Fish lists with 4 Sage of Epityr and Stormscape Apprentices Top 8'd a 75 person event. Sage of Epityr does exactly what I want in this deck... it gives me library manipluation/consistency and a body to sac to Cabal Therapy all for a mere  . It's helping me keep my blue spell count up for FoW too. I'm not sure how a deck like Fish can be good in Vintage without cantrip or draw (like many UW lists). The deck doesn't run broken cards... it runs mediocre cards that have good synergy with one another, with certain cards being stronger in certain situations. Without draw, it seems like the deck would never have what it wanted. 4 Sage, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Confidant, 1 Recall, 1 Tutor makes for a very strong draw package if you ask me.
 
I'm not trying to port Legacy Fish into Vintage Fish. I was playing with a UWb Null Rod Fish deck for a while in Vintage; my list is posted in the WUb Fish thread in the Open Forum. I simply wanted to try a different angle with the deck... which is to attack the opponent's hand rather than their manabase. That's the only goal of this deck... if the concept fails, then I'll scrap the decklist. It's a concept I've yet to see and it's a concept I'd like to try. I think it has alot of merit.

Chalice of the Void conflicts with what this deck is designed to attack, which is the hand. The Prison elements and Chalice still attack the opponent's manabase. That is not the focus here.

How does Fish go through troubles in casting creatures, exactly? I thought the format was mostly combo decks that don't care about me casting an Isamaru or a Sage of Epityr? I didn't think paying  or  for a creature and then sacrificing it to flash back Therapy was counter intuitive, especially since I'm running 4 1cc 1/1's and 18 creatures in total. Mesmeric Fiend isn't necessarily a bad idea, maybe I could try using it in combination with my other discard spells. I still want to use Cabal Therapy though.

Ancient Tomb doesn't fit the mana curve of this deck at all. I'm not trying to up my manacurve to 3cc, I like it where it's at. 3c with Tombs would probably be difficult to pull off anyway.

I appreciate the feedback but next time, please read the opening post. I don't want to change this into a different deck. I want to try and see if this idea is viable. If not, I'll scrap the deck. I have a feeling with a bit of tuning, this deck is going to be fairly strong.

[BreathWeapon]

U/w uses tempo and bears in order to win the game, because the T1.5 concept of hand optimization and hand disruption don't work in T1; just cantripping and discarding the opponent's spells is a tempo black hole, and the opponent has the mana to just rip a card and win. Even with hand optimization and discard, Fish is still just flat out under powered card for card when it's compared to the rest of the field.

[Hanni]

U/w uses tempo and bears in order to win the game, because the T1.5 concept of hand optimization and hand disruption don't work in T1; just cantripping and discarding the opponent's spells is a tempo black hole, and the opponent has the mana to just rip a card and win.

Well, I won't disagree with you about whether or not it works in T1. That is why this thread is in the developmental forum. I'd like to tune the list and test it a bit.

However, I'm not sure how spending very low amounts of mana (1cc discard, 1cc hand optimization) is going to be a serious black hole when I'm also packing 3 Moxes and 1 Lotus.

As far as just ripping a card and winning: I wasn't aware that combo decks could go off on 1 card. If that's the case, I do have FoW and Meddling Mage to try and help me. Otherwise, it would seem that I would be pretty much screwed then. What kinda topdeck card will allow the opponent to completely recover and combo off? Yawg Will or Gifts or something?

[Kieranwolf]

U/w uses tempo and bears in order to win the game, because the T1.5 concept of hand optimization and hand disruption don't work in T1; just cantripping and discarding the opponent's spells is a tempo black hole, and the opponent has the mana to just rip a card and win. Even with hand optimization and discard, Fish is still just flat out under powered card for card when it's compared to the rest of the field.

Yup. No matter how many times you cast Duress and Therapy, your opponent is still going to accumulate mana. As soon as they get a chance to resolve a bomb, that's it. Even if you can keep up with FoW and hand disruption, your opponent is just going to end up with a full graveyard to Y. Will with.

Furthermore...

Erasing one strategy to depend on another doesn't seem very good in this case. Fish needs all the weapons it can get against the faster combo and control strategies that are present in today's metagame. As an aggro player, I'm well aware that hand disruption is well and good, but alone it can only do so much. I usually win my games against control/combo when I can attack at least two out of three critical elements: The hand, the graveyard, and the mana base. You can't leave two of these alone and expect to have all the attack phases you need to win.

I may be wrong, but I also think Chalice is being underestimated here. It doesn't just stop moxen and lotuses and Vaults and Sol Rings, after all.

Four artifact mana isn't much, by the way. Your Gifts opponent is packing how much in comparison? Ten+?

The list doesn't seem much like evolution to me. Evolution happens when something new occurs and ends up working. Removing mana denial elements from fish seems more like a step backward to me.

[Stamford]

Perhaps you were looking for a list like this

Lands 16
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts 10
1 Black Lotus
4 Moxen (take out the ruby)
1 Lotus Petal
4 Null Rod

Creatures 15
4 Dark Confidant
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Dimir Cutpurse
3 Erayo

Others 19
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection

Sideboard 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Darkblast
3 Echoing Truth
1 Underground Sea
3 Psychatog

This is my UBW fish list that is designed to attack the hand most importantly, the manabase and with a bit of Graveyard removal together with the full set of "free" counters.
If you really like to attack the hand, you could sub out the MisDs in this deck for Duress.

This deck also have the Erayo lock.

Its very similar to SS but with updated tools (white) and a faster clock, call it SS (Super Solution intead of Sullivan then)

It is designed to specifically deal against combo and control decks. The basis of the deck is just to get down a creature, preferably Dimir Cutpurse or Dark Confidant, then proceed to control the game. Dimir Cutpurse is very effective at doing this and most of the times, you will find yourself Ancestral Recalling each time Dimir Cutpurse attacks.

However, the deck has major problems against other Fish decks and Aggro decks like goblins though. This deck vs Ichorid is 60-40 in Fish's favour though.

[BreathWeapon]

U/w uses tempo and bears in order to win the game, because the T1.5 concept of hand optimization and hand disruption don't work in T1; just cantripping and discarding the opponent's spells is a tempo black hole, and the opponent has the mana to just rip a card and win.

Well, I won't disagree with you about whether or not it works in T1. That is why this thread is in the developmental forum. I'd like to tune the list and test it a bit.

However, I'm not sure how spending very low amounts of mana (1cc discard, 1cc hand optimization) is going to be a serious black hole when I'm also packing 3 Moxes and 1 Lotus.

As far as just ripping a card and winning: I wasn't aware that combo decks could go off on 1 card. If that's the case, I do have FoW and Meddling Mage to try and help me. Otherwise, it would seem that I would be pretty much screwed then. What kinda topdeck card will allow the opponent to completely recover and combo off? Yawg Will or Gifts or something?

One turn misspent is GG for Fish, Long ends the game on turn 2 and Gifts ends the game on turn 3, all Long has to do is TD a Draw7 or a tutor for Y.Will and all of that discard was for nothing, and all Gifts has to do is TD a Gifts Ungiven or Merchant Scroll for Mystical Tutor and Mystical Tutor for Yawgmoth's Will to win the game.

Duress is just in the deck to push thru' a Meddling Mage or Kataki, War's Wage against their counter wall, and I would trade all of the discard in the world just for Red Elemental and Pyro Blasts since counters force them to use resources and discard doesn't.

Blasts and bears could work tho', at least that gives the deck some time.

[Implacable]

U/w uses tempo and bears in order to win the game, because the T1.5 concept of hand optimization and hand disruption don't work in T1; just cantripping and discarding the opponent's spells is a tempo black hole, and the opponent has the mana to just rip a card and win.

Well, I won't disagree with you about whether or not it works in T1. That is why this thread is in the developmental forum. I'd like to tune the list and test it a bit.

However, I'm not sure how spending very low amounts of mana (1cc discard, 1cc hand optimization) is going to be a serious black hole when I'm also packing 3 Moxes and 1 Lotus.

As far as just ripping a card and winning: I wasn't aware that combo decks could go off on 1 card. If that's the case, I do have FoW and Meddling Mage to try and help me. Otherwise, it would seem that I would be pretty much screwed then. What kinda topdeck card will allow the opponent to completely recover and combo off? Yawg Will or Gifts or something?

One turn misspent is GG for Fish, Long ends the game on turn 2 and Gifts ends the game on turn 3, all Long has to do is TD a Draw7 or a tutor for Y.Will and all of that discard was for nothing, and all Gifts has to do is TD a Gifts Ungiven or Merchant Scroll for Mystical Tutor and Mystical Tutor for Yawgmoth's Will to win the game.

Duress is just in the deck to push thru' a Meddling Mage or Kataki, War's Wage against their counter wall, and I would trade all of the discard in the world just for Red Elemental and Pyro Blasts since counters force them to use resources and discard doesn't.

Blasts and bears could work tho', at least that gives the deck some time.

I think the basic point being made here is this; when you cannot win a card quality war, using cards that first and foremost attempt to equalize card quality (Duress, Therapy) is a losing strategy. 

[wethepeople]

I can't understand how cutting Rod or Chalice can be optimal in Vintage's post-Future Sight metagame. FS will bring Pact of Negation, which will obviously spawn a few different combo decks, as well as add power to more fragile decks, like Goblin Charbelcher. Null Rod, and Chalice of the Void are some of the best cards versus these kinds of decks, so removing them from the list is illogical.

[TopSecret]

     Hello, Hanni.
Your list looks very strong.
I have been testing Sage of Epityr in fish,
and I believe that he is very good when combined with either Confidant, Ninja, or Cabal Therapy.
He looks like a very good fit in your deck.

     The only complaint I can find about your build
is the 18 total mana sources. Does this hurt your mulligans?

     If you were to add another card,
I'd suggest adding a Ninja, because of his synergy with both Sage and Grunt.
He's always awesome as a one 'of, while some of the other
cards you listed are situational.
An extra land might be nice, too.
The Voidmage is a very interesting idea.
I'm just curious about how painful his double U his activation is for the manabase.

     If you are considering adding another Echoing Truth,
I'd suggest taking out one of the two Swords for it.
You have a Demonic Tutor if you really need it, and there aren't a whole
lot of creatures floating around that can't be handled by either combat or Echoing Truth.
Of course, if you expect a real load of aggro, Swords would be good.

     I like the direction your deck takes as well;
attacking the hand instead of the manabase.
Vintage manabases are usually very stable,
and those that aren't usually have a mana denial component themselves,
or the ability to play cards fast enough to outrun LD.

     I'm not sure if your deck should run Dazes
because I haven't tested your list. My initial reaction is that they aren't necessary.
You don't use mana denial, so Daze is a little weaker than in the usual UW.
The only other time Daze is really good is when your deck can
build up a very quick and consistent advantage,
like, "Turn one, Confidant. Turn Two, Threat with Daze backup."
If that kind of hand isn't consistent, then I wouldn't use Daze.

     Also, why are there so many negative Nancys in this thread?

Thanks for posting the list, and good luck!

[wethepeople]

I myself have been a firm believer of UW Fish with a black splash. Splashing black causes you to cut Null Rod, to keep the curve in line, and add Chalice in it's slot. Cutting both entirely can't be good, because those two cards are by far some of the best cards the deck has to offer. I have gotten to the point where in UW, I run four Rods just for this reason, so I would never even consider running zero.

I prefer using Stifle over Daze. Daze, when used on turn one (which is most-commonly done), causes you to be set back a turn on land-drops. In UWb, or "UBw" for that matter, this is not best, because once you've reached two mana, the deck starts to get going. Stifle also assures that your mana base stays strong, because a turn one Wasteland on Tundra/U.Sea can be very bad for you, because you get another turn without doing much.

Sage of Ephytir really isn't that good. I myself would use Children of Korlis over Sage anyday. Children are strongest right now, because they are very good versus Ichorid. They cannot successfully be countered by Pact of Negation, and are able to save you versus a lethal Tendrils.

Attacking the hand really won't work as well as you think. It will be annoying for a turn or so, but as soon as they draw one of their multiple topdeck-Tutors, they will simply fetch a Yawgmoth's Will and re-play everything that you discarded prior.

Overall, I really think that this is not the best way to go with Fish. I have played lists very similar to the one that you presented, and quickly returned to mana-denial based builds.

[Hanni]

I appreciate all the feedback. It seems like the discard idea is being considered bad because of the opponent's ability to easily recover with cards like Yawgmoth's Will. I do run Jotun Grunt and Meddling Mage, but the opponent can still topdeck other cards. I really do like the idea, and I'll still try to test it when I have time... but by the sound of things, it's probably not going to work. At least I tried.

What about dropping 2 StP and 1 Cabal Therapy for 4 Chalice (since I had 1 open spot)? Do you think this would help make the deck more viable? I still think that the discard route is awesome for buying early tempo... maybe a faster clock would be a good idea (like Negator)?

[wethepeople]

I appreciate all the feedback. It seems like the discard idea is being considered bad because of the opponent's ability to easily recover with cards like Yawgmoth's Will. I do run Jotun Grunt and Meddling Mage, but the opponent can still topdeck other cards. I really do like the idea, and I'll still try to test it when I have time... but by the sound of things, it's probably not going to work. At least I tried.

What about dropping 2 StP and 1 Cabal Therapy for 4 Chalice (since I had 1 open spot)? Do you think this would help make the deck more viable? I still think that the discard route is awesome for buying early tempo... maybe a faster clock would be a good idea (like Negator)?

It's not necessarily that it was a bad idea or anything, but the whole mana-denial theme is far better right now. Not too long ago I had a thread on this color configuration in Fish, and it'd probably be a good place for you to read up on the deck. From the looks of it, Future Sight is going to change the format a ton, so I myself am going to wait a bit until I post any definite lists.

Phyrexian Negator isn't really that good in Vintage. If you face less-Drains, and little creatures, it may be possible, but I can't imagine such a metagame ever existing. Swords to Plowshares is a metagame decision entirely. If you expect that you will see Fish, then yes, it would be good. However, if Gifts is more popular, Echoing Truth would be a better selection.

[Guli]

Before reading this, please be advised that I'm a Legacy player and not a Vintage player. I've fooled around with Vintage a bit and read a ton of articles on the subject of Vintage Fish. From my observations, it seems as though many people do not think Fish is viable due to combo evolving into decks that are far too powerful for Fish to contain. I came up with an idea that I thought could deserve some testing... rather than try to attack the manabase with Wasteland and Null Rod (or Chalice), why not just attack their hand?

Yep, this hand disruption approach isn't new though.

Duress/Cabal/Extirpate is a cheap disruption core that will succesfully  do hand disruption and a bit grave at the same time wich is good in vintage.
However after playing around with this 'discard' approach i think ,in vintage, you shouldn't put more focus on 1 drops that just beat for 2 damage unless it will disrupt aswell (Welder/Children of Korlis/Shaman/Bloodfire Dwarf/...)
Hand disruption is good but it only works for a short amount of time and in some cases it hardly is slowing the opponent down. I don't think dropping mana denial is good. There should be mana denial aswell. This doesn't mean null rod or chalice but Waste/Strip and Kataki(walking beating semi-rod) are really good cards.

[Implacable]

I would just like to address very quickly why I feel that mana disruption > hand disruption.

1) Fish is not a broken deck

2) Because Fish is not a broken deck, it must stop other decks from being broken

3) Meandeck Gifts wins through playing early counters and then Giftsing EOT; Long wins by chaining together tutors or Draw-7s; Slaver wins by using incremental board advantage to build towards a Slaver lock or a huge Will

4) The one thing that stops all of these decks from 'going broken' in the first few turns is a lack of mana.  Gifts without lands; Long without Rituals; Slaver sans Moxen; they are neutered.

5) Therefore, the stumbling block which Fish must attack is mana

That's essentially my line of reasoning as to running Rod & Waste over Duress + Therapy.

[Guli]

Your null rod can be bounced back and then you are sitting ducks. Duresslike hand disruptors take out the bomb/engine and give you information about his hand and deck (extirpate). Null Rod has the potential to be a dead card while Duress wil still do what it does. I think if you are running rod's you shoul go straight x4. That is 4 slots dedicated to a non-cumulative card. Is it worth it? Yes it is! Surprised? Ofcourse rod is worth it. Then what are you babling about you might ask? Well i don't like the attitude that some people put towards decks that want to use utility bears and want to try other approaches. Rod is not a holy card that players should auto-include when they want to create a deck based on casting creature and putting pressure. Chalice can be used 2 times for example. However with duresslike cards that cost 1 mana and your bears 2cc i don't want to run chalice either in this kinda deck. Kataki is an option, there are wastelands, mox monkeys, EE, Kegs, rack ruin,Glowrider,Hide/SeeK,....

Im sure rod can be replaced in fish if someone really doesn't want to run it. I run it in a lot of my fish versions but i also don't in many other and not running it creates new options aswell.

[BreathWeapon]

@Hanni

Discard itself isn't a bad idea, but basing U/w/b Fish on discard is; SS was the first non-LD based Fish build based on discard and not mana denial, but it used a full set of acceleration and Cutpurse and Erayo to create a lock, and I would still add Chalice of the Void and red to that deck just for the Blasts and Shamans.

[Hanni]

3) Meandeck Gifts wins through playing early counters and then Giftsing EOT; Long wins by chaining together tutors or Draw-7s; Slaver wins by using incremental board advantage to build towards a Slaver lock or a huge Will

4) The one thing that stops all of these decks from 'going broken' in the first few turns is a lack of mana.  Gifts without lands; Long without Rituals; Slaver sans Moxen; they are neutered.

Wouldn't Duress + Therapy stop them from going broken in the first few turns too? I mean, if you pull out some accel or tutors or whatever it seems like you still slow them down and stop them from going broken for the first couple of turns. The main thing people have said about discard is that the opponent can recover from it. I still see Null Rod being bounceable, whereas with discard they need to topdeck a bomb. The discard isn't meant to knock them out of the game. It's simply meant to slow them down early on so they don't go broken. After that, I hope to overwhelm them with card quality/advantage while I'm smacking them in the face with guys. The clock in this deck isn't so bad when they don't have blockers and don't run much removal. The clock obviously isn't broken fast but the deck does pack quite a bit of disruption and the additional mana acceleration should help quite a bit too. I realize other Fish lists still run Moxes, but they typically run less and oftentimes shut their own mana down with cards like Null Rod.

I renamed the title of the thread. I think Deadfish is suiting because the discard reminds me of Deadguy but the deck is Fish.

It seems like everyone thinks the deck idea won't work. I made a few more changes though. I'd still like to work on the deck until I can eventually hammer out something good. If I have to revert back to Chalice and Null Rod I will, but I want to try some other things first.

I had 1 extra card slot open and made a few changes:

-1 Sage of Epityr
-2 Swords to Plowhsares
+1 Voidmage Prodigy
+2 Counterspell
+1 Chrome Mox

I think 6 1cc creatures drop should satisfy the 4 Cabal Therapy and the deck already has plenty of cantrip/draw already (4 Brainstorm, 1 Ancestral, 1 Demonic, 4 Dark Confidant, and 3 Sage). I figured Swords was probably better in the sideboard. Chrome Mox ups my accel to 5 pieces, which should help me cast things a little faster. I'm hoping it can support Voidmage and Counterspell. Counterspell (and Force of Will) answers the topdecked bombs like Yawgmoth's Will and Gifts Ungiven and should be castable by the time I need it. Voidmage beats for 2 and gives me Counterspells #3+.

If I hit the opponent early with discard and drop a couple beats, I should be in a strong position with them relying on the topdeck. With the amount of draw power and counters, I should be able to counter the bombs they topdeck. I'm not sure that this will work. This is simply theorized right now and I still need to playtest it more.

Again, I'm not super talented in the ways of Vintage. I'd like to get to that point eventually as I like both of the Eternal formats. I'll keep testing this deck and hopefully I can end up with something that works well enough for me. I love Fish and I'd like to create something a little different than the norm and have it still perform well. This may not be possible. I'd still like to try. I appreciate all of the feedback so far, it has been very helpful with my tuning of the deck and my perception of the format.

[Implacable]

3) Meandeck Gifts wins through playing early counters and then Giftsing EOT; Long wins by chaining together tutors or Draw-7s; Slaver wins by using incremental board advantage to build towards a Slaver lock or a huge Will

4) The one thing that stops all of these decks from 'going broken' in the first few turns is a lack of mana.  Gifts without lands; Long without Rituals; Slaver sans Moxen; they are neutered.

Wouldn't Duress + Therapy stop them from going broken in the first few turns too? I mean, if you pull out some accel or tutors or whatever it seems like you still slow them down and stop them from going broken for the first couple of turns. The main thing people have said about discard is that the opponent can recover from it. I still see Null Rod being bounceable, whereas with discard they need to topdeck a bomb. The discard isn't meant to knock them out of the game. It's simply meant to slow them down early on so they don't go broken. After that, I hope to overwhelm them with card quality/advantage while I'm smacking them in the face with guys. The clock in this deck isn't so bad when they don't have blockers and don't run much removal. The clock obviously isn't broken fast but the deck does pack quite a bit of disruption and the additional mana acceleration should help quite a bit too. I realize other Fish lists still run Moxes, but they typically run less and oftentimes shut their own mana down with cards like Null Rod.

The first statement to be addressed is that you plan to "overwhelm them with card quality/advantage."  This is, in my experience, impossible with any Fish list (except, occasionally, SS, which is by far the most rawly powerful Fish list in Vintage).  The whole art of playing Fish is a balance; you must get a fast clock on the field, while also stalling out the other man.  You will not ever beat a powered Drain deck in any card advantage/quality war, and while Long has only a small card advantage engine, it runs the best cards in the game, bar none.  Fish doesn't win by its own merits; it wins on the weaknesses of its opponents.

The second statement to be addressed is "Duress + Therapy stop them from going broken in the first few turns too."  The short answer is no.  The longer answer is that most decks are redundant in terms of power; that is, they play very many powerful cards that can all be used to win the game.  Duress & Therapy attempt to win an unwinnable card quality war.  Why would a deck that runs 2/1's want to compete with a deck that runs Gifts in terms of card power?  Now, that is not to say that Duress and Therapy do not have their place.  They can, at times, strip cards from your opponents hand that would have, for example, won them the game the next turn (e.g. Yawgmoth's Will, Necropotence, Desire, etc.).  However, as I've stated, Fish decks can't win on equal footing with 'real' decks.  If a little man fights a big man, he doesn't fight fair; he punches the big guy in the nads so he can't get up.  That, in a nutshell, is Fish.

[Harlequin]

The other reason that SS could make discard work was Planar Void.  I think Planar Void is a particularly brutal card, that can only really fit in UB/x fish.  I would highly suggest considering 1-3 on the main.

[wethepeople]

The other reason that SS could make discard work was Planar Void.  I think Planar Void is a particularly brutal card, that can only really fit in UB/x fish.  I would highly suggest considering 1-3 on the main.

In some of my newest lists I have gone as far as to run Leyline of the Void main strictly to allow me to win game one versus Ichorid. Ichorid will obviously be played a lot more post-Future Sight, so MD Leylines may be worth the 3-4 slots. Although, this greatly depends on which tournament you plan on playing the deck in, because the number of proxies determines whether or not the metagame will be flooded with Dredge, or not.

The problem with Planar Void [in UBW] is that it kills your Jotun Grunts, whereas Leyline only shortens their overall lifetime. Yixlid Jailor does the same thing as Planar Void, however the problem I see with Jailor is that he is yet another 2cc creature-spell that dies to Darkblast, so I am hesitant to run him in my list.

[mox apricot]

Instead of going echoing truth crazy, it’s a good idea to have variety. I’d try 1 echoing truth, and one wipe away (so chalice @2 doesn’t completely kill you) and a trickbind, it stops storm as well as a number of things.

I’d also strongly consider mana leak.

While I’m at it, when you’ve got a list together make sure chalice @ 1 or 2 doesn’t completely annihilate you. If you’re looking for something to cut, I’ve always been very happy with only 3 meddling mage in my ubw fish list

If you’re running that many 1 cost creatures I would strongly consider ninja of the deep hours, although I disagree with sage. I’d strongly consider at least a 3 strip effect. While tweaking this deck, make sure you have enough blue to support FoW