UBw Deadfish (Discard)

[wethepeople]

Instead of going echoing truth crazy, it’s a good idea to have variety. I’d try 1 echoing truth, and one wipe away (so chalice @2 doesn’t completely kill you) and a trickbind, it stops storm as well as a number of things.

I’d also strongly consider mana leak.

While I’m at it, when you’ve got a list together make sure chalice @ 1 or 2 doesn’t completely annihilate you. If you’re looking for something to cut, I’ve always been very happy with only 3 meddling mage in my ubw fish list

If you’re running that many 1 cost creatures I would strongly consider ninja of the deep hours, although I disagree with sage. I’d strongly consider at least a 3 strip effect. While tweaking this deck, make sure you have enough blue to support FoW

Chalice of the Void at two hasn't been a common problem for this deck for months now; ever since Empty the Warrens was printed, when Stax began to see very little play. Echoing Truth is still the best bounce spell in this deck, because it gets rid of the usual permanents, as well as ETW-tokens, Bridge from Below-tokens, and several other things. 3cc bounce is very bad in a deck like this, especially Wipe Away, which I believe is a terrible card. You should never be leaving two mana open at one time, possibly one, for Stifle, but you should be casting additional creatures, disruption, et cetera, rather than sitting around with a Trickbind, or Mana Leak at hand.

Lastly, I would never cut down on Meddling Mages. Meddling Mage is one of, if not the best creature Fish offers, so running just three is illogical.

[hauntedechos]

I'll jump in here and toss my two coins in.

I agree that in the case of Ichorid, discard is actually counter productive.  There is nothing that they DON'T want in thier G/Y off the top of my head (I'm probly missing something though).  So rather, you need to hate the yard.  Permanent solutions are paramount as a Tormod's or two won't stop them from just rebuilding the yard anyways.  In a straight U/W list, Grunt is the best wepon available, and in FS you can just not pay his upkeep to drop thier bridge.  In a list with a splash black, you have Extirpate for Ichorid, and wastes for Bazaar (another Extirpate target at that point.)  It's been stated that even if you extirpate the Bazaar they can just wait till they have to discard and start dredging again.  The biggest pain in the ass is the fact that Ichorid is now faster by an extimated full turn and add to that that Cabal Therapies are now online turn 1 I understand.
   I still feel that Jotun is the greatest wepon (add in Umezawa's in the match up to help with some board control) and should be upped to x3Main and x1 SB in light of the fact that you have situations where you WANT him to just go to the G/Y fighting the Bridge.  Perhalps a two crypts SB is a good choice here, as once you've started attacking the yard with Grunt, dropping a Crypt would be good to do as you're planning on on letting him go to kill off the bridge.

Children of Khorlis was suggested in my thread, and I've been mulling it over.  It seems that it's a must deal with card (bounce counter etc) in order for Tendrils to play out, at least your forceing them to answer threats, and hopefully buy yourself enough attack steps.

I agree with the crude description of Fish posted above.  Yes, Fish doesn't want to fight fair, that's why it's a hate deck.  And in that light we realize that it wins in small increments, while playing out it's baseline strategy.

recap: 13 cards all aimed directly at Ichorid and all are usefull against Tendrils.Dec
x4Jotun (1 from the side)
x2Tormod's (2 from the Side)
x3Extirpate (2main 1 from side)
x3Umezawa's Jitte(side)
x3Wastelands(main)
x1Stripmine(main)

I know that everyone thinks that x4 Leyline is an auto include, and maybe your right.  I just don't like messing around with my beater that I generally ride FTW.
Let the flaming begin.

Cheers
Mike
PMing me is always welcome for further discussion.

[Hanni]

While discard may be worthless against Ichorid, the deck can simply board into a playset of Yixlid Jailers for games 2 and 3. Yixlid Jailer and Umezawa's Jitte replace discard postboard. The deck gets access to 4 Yixlid Jailer and 3 Jotun Grunt for graveyard disruptiveness, which should be more than enough to handle Ichorid I would think.

The bustedness of FS Ichorid makes the black splash in U/W Fish for Yixlid Jailer alone a pretty good decision IMO.

Leyline of the Void is a fine option, but it requires that you have it in your opening hand, whereas Yixlid Jailer can be drawn into and cast much easier. Plus the fact that Leyline just sits there while Yixlid Jailer beats for 2.

[hauntedechos]

@ Hanni,

I suggest a posible creature maindeck for post FS use:

x3Meddling Mage
X3Yixlid Jailer
X4Dark Confidant (yes more practice has made me a beliver)
x3Jotun Grunt
x3Children of Korlis

@ 16 creatures you have creature density, diversity (mage ability to shutting recoup, and most of Ichorid and Oath's Gaea's Blessing off, slow moving continuout Tormod's effect and turn 1 forced interaction with any deck trying to go off turn 1-2)

x4Fow
X4Daze
X4brainstorm
X4Duress(from Dave Feintsein suggestion, that I belive has potential)
x1Mis D
x3NullRod
x1jet,Saph
x1Lotus

after that and SB I think it's pretty open (aside from everyone that will say Walk and Recall needed, which I agree, just leaving slots open),  and meta game dependant.

the deal is, if x4 Ley is SB, then w/Jailer main, that's pretty decent.  E.T. can be main and deal double duty against Warrens. Chants versus Long.Dec etc and Kataki SB for Stax.  the ususal Jitte and stp and Old man somehow addressed for the mirror. it's all a matter of trying to fit the old match up solutions, with the current demands, without diluting the other matchups that were still demanding.  If ichorid does anything, it will lower the Stax/Slaver decks running around with the options we have and are pushed to pack (ie replacing Stifle tricks for more permanent answers.)

my 2 cents
Mike