URBana Fish

[ash_ketchum]

This is the list I have playing with for a while now and has proven to be one of th best builds in my opinion.
Here's the list.

creatures
3 gorilla shaman
3 waterfront bouncer
4 dark confidant
3 dimir cutpurse
3 ninja of deep hours

spells and disruption
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 mystical tutor
1 fire/ice
1 echoing truth
1 vampiric tutor
2 REB
1 pyroblast
4 FOW
4 duress
3 chalice

mana
7 mox mana
5 waste effects
6 fetches
3 volcanic
3 U-sea

I didn't post the sideboard because it is obviously meta dependant. I would really enjoy suggestions on what your thoughts
are on the deck and it's use of tutors

[hauntedechos]

Thanks for showing interest in any sort of Fish build at all.  I'm a huge advocate of Fish in general, but U/W in specific.  I'm not very well versed in URBana FIsh, however I do understand all of the cards used.  I think the community would like to have a little more meat to this post rather than a random deck list posted.  Things such as what your trying to improve, change, are there some concerns/matchups your worried about.  Perhalps you could give us a few reports on what your matchups were like given certain decks and what you think the problem/sucess was due to.

That being said, I'll try and get the ball rolling for you.  I think that this deck has a decent draw engine between Bob and Deep hours.  However I'm concerned with how many times you'll have to pitch one of them to FoW, has this been an issue to you?  As well, I know that you're using the blasts in the stead of Daze and other free spells, has this been taxing at all to you?  I have had a conversation with Dave Feinstein about the issue of Daze vs. Mana Leak and after a 32 preson contest this weekend past (4th place for me) I agree with him that one should not leave home w/o them.  Also, prehalps I've mis read the list, but I don't see a Misdirection of Stifle present.  How has the lack of Stifle tricks affected your manaless Ichorid match up?  I know I won mine 2 - 0 on the back of stifle tricks.  Further to that, how has Mox Monkey been for you in the Stax match up?  did you have enough mana to keep the stax player down? or do you just blitz them?  Lastly, how do you deal with the Mirror or U/W matchup in terms of the mana denial program.  I only ask because I noticed you run NO basics and no Crucible as ensurance.  Crucible isn't nessesary if you have basics for the waste issues.

I'm not trying to build a case for URBana vs. U/W, I'm just curious about how your match ups are and what cards perform for you in any of your given match ups.  Get back to us with results from test play/tourny situations and what you'd like to see improve etc.  And I'd be happy to speak more with you on it all.  In addition feel free to PM me for additional conversation.

[ash_ketchum]

sorry about not giving enough imformation
the deck's strong match ups are (Gifts ,Combo ,fish mirror, Slaver ,and stacks if you are a good enough player)
the deck's weak matchup can be stacks if you are not prepared and against oath it is weak and loses to
the random rogue decks
I have placed 3 out of 4 times at type ones with this ,but the time I didn't top eight I won the 32 man side event
at Becker's last tourny
I have playtested a lot also with the deck and it seems to have the best matchups of any of the fish decks I have
played
The deck no longer plays remand or daze unlike the other cards in the deck they just weren't great.
With remand you always had to two mana open and daze is only good early game.
With the edition of cutpurse your hand will never run out.
Also you don't have to worry about pitching creatures to FOW because it plays so many.

[Hydra]

Looking over your list Mark, I can't help but notice that your list is slowly encroaching more towards being a creature-heavy version of SS than being its own deck.  Such changes are quite understandable, as the two decks attempt to to accomplish very similiar tasks (although in quite different ways), but I question whether or not such changes are necessary.  Namely, I'm curious as to the addition of the Cutpurses at the expense of disruption.

Cutpurse does in a way provide disruption (in the form of discard), but is the extra body truly necessary?  Cards like Daze and Remand are in the deck to help capitalize on the massive amounts of mana disruption (Wastes/Shamans/CotV) the deck runs, giving it the tempo it needs to win with the critters.  You potentially speed up the clock with extra creatures, but you also lose the tempo that cards like Daze and Remand bring to the deck.  The posted build also loses a Shaman, which hurts the Ninja a bit (as you never want to use a Cutpurse for the Ninja and rarely want to use a Bob) as well as further lowering the disruption count.  I'm curious to the necessity of this addition, as it looks like it alters the deck's gameplan a lot.

[Moxlotus]

I've been fine tuning an URBana list for the past few months and while I'm not going to post it, I've found Bouncer weak.  He doesn't do anything against Oath post board since SSS was printed.  More and more people are cutting DSC from Gifts lists.  Basically, he's on my shit list.  I would also never go below 4 Monkeys, they are needed for ninja.  But they would still need to be blue cards.  You have 18 blue cards by my count, which is about as low as you could comfortably get (last time I counted, I had 18 too).

I'm not the biggest fan or Vamp or Mystical.  I don't think an aggro control deck wants to spend time tutoring up something. 

4 Duress is a lot.  I've cut back a few.

Don't you miss not having any stifle effects?  I see this version somewhat weak against a ETW packing Gifts (although, it would be stronger than mine against a DSC packing Gifts).

I'd find a way to fit a basic island in there.

The sideboard is very metagame dependant.  I've spent the past 2 months crafting the maindeck disruption to coincide with the disruption in the board.  It is very tough to get a good sideboard for this deck to deal with the different threats from other decks.  Now that FS brings 3 or 4 new cards to the mix, it's time to completely change it.

I completely agree with your match analysis.  Gifts and Long are pretty good matchups.  Slaver is above average.  I find Stax to be favorable, but I have a big board for it and have tested the living hell out of that matchup.  U/W Fish is terrible pre-board, but great post board, so my experience shows it evens out.  Oath is god awful to play against, as is Ichorid.

[LotusHead]

Don't you miss not having any stifle effects?  I see this version somewhat weak against a ETW packing Gifts (although, it would be stronger than mine against a DSC packing Gifts).

I don't play storm, and I don't play fish/Stifle.

I do playtest a lot, and watch various matches at Vintage tournies and read tourney reports.

When was the last time someone actually Stifle'd ETW or Tendrils?  Fetchlands, sure, Dupelicant imprint, sure, Titan ability, sure, but pwning ETW/Storm?

I am always suprized that Stifle/Trickbind get mentioned as Storm Hosers.

[Moxlotus]

Don't you miss not having any stifle effects?  I see this version somewhat weak against a ETW packing Gifts (although, it would be stronger than mine against a DSC packing Gifts).

I don't play storm, and I don't play fish/Stifle.

I do playtest a lot, and watch various matches at Vintage tournies and read tourney reports.

When was the last time someone actually Stifle'd ETW or Tendrils?  Fetchlands, sure, Dupelicant imprint, sure, Titan ability, sure, but pwning ETW/Storm?

I am always suprized that Stifle/Trickbind get mentioned as Storm Hosers.

Honestly, when you have as much disruption as URBana does, combo can't always afford to dick around until it can find Duress (if it has it) for protection.  I stifle and Trickbind ETW and Tendrils all the time with URBana.  But, as you said, they have tons of other uses.

[ErkBek]

Here was the last list I worked with (when ETW gifts and ETW sideboards became popular)

Mana 24
4 Delta
3 Strand
3 Volc
3 Usea
1 Island
5 Strips
1 Lotus
3 On-color moxes
1 Off-color Mox

Men 15
4 Ninja
4 Shaman
4 Bob
3 Cutpurse (may go to 3 Ninja, 4 Cutpurse)

Stuff 3
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
1 Vamp Tutor (or MT)

Disruption 18
4 FoW
3 Chalice
3 Duress
2 Reb
2 Remand
2 E Truth
2 Daze

Overall I wasn't all that happy with how it played.

I think the best way to deal with the new warrens problem is to prevent a large warrens from ever being played and to be able to find an answer to a small warrens within 3 turns. Mar....I mean Ash's list does this perfectly. 4 Duress, 3 Cutpurse, and 2 Tutors + 1 Echoing Truth seems to be the best way to go. With the change to 4 Duress, Remand and Daze aren't needed as much to dodge countermagic and stop threats.

With the shift in the metagame, waterfront bouncer has become less valuable for reasons Phil stated. I think its time to cut them. However, cutting them would mean a lost Ninja enabler, so they need to be replaced with a cheap blue creature to effectively use ninja.

Riptide Pilferer 1U
Oracle text: Whenever Riptide Pilferer deals combat damage to a player, that player discards a card.
Morph U(You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)

This creature seems to fit the new strategy well. Here's the list I'd give a try

creatures
4 gorilla shaman
2 Riptide Pilferer
4 dark confidant
2 dimir cutpurse
3 ninja of deep hours

spells and disruption
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 mystical tutor
1 fire/ice
1 echoing truth
1 vampiric tutor
2 Merchant Scroll
1 REB
1 pyroblast
4 FOW
4 duress
3 chalice

24 mana

Merchant Scroll is actually a really good card in the deck once Remands and Dazes have been dropped (also there are less drains to play around in the metagame). Scroll gives you the ability to grab a FoW, Echoing Truth, and Ancestral.

[scutakicker]

I think at this point you need to be running tutors in order to have access to bounce for EtW. Especially if you take out Bouncer you need ways to deal with Welders/Bots.

I've always liked Grim Lavamancer since it deals with Welder/Fish and is a nice Ninja enabler. At that point there are issues with blue card count, but there are probably things that can be switched around. How has Lavamancer worked in various builds that you all have tried?

[ash_ketchum]

First of all, grim lavamancer just does less than bouncer and drops the blue count  for FOW.
Bouncer is actually weak in the format currently which I agree on ,but there's the chance of not having him
that one match where you need him most and lose because of it.
I also uped the count on duress to four because it had proved itself multiple times against
combo and there wasn't much I could see myself running over itsince the loss of disruption.
The reason for so many creatures is because there are games I lose because I am just unable to put them on
a clock. The cutpurse has been a HUGE help as well as drawing the cards off vamp/mystical.
Having the tutors is great because it allows you to not rely on topdecking.
The thing I can see myself doing is adding a gorilla shaman to 4 since I always love drawing
that and blowing their mana base.
Hopefully that covers every thing which I doubt I did.

[Imsomniac101]

I've had this list forever... before pre SS and Urbana actually - You might remember the thread on Raze I started up last year. I've updated the list since Planar Chaos, and I think it's highly relevant here:

//NAME: Untitled Deck
        3 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
        2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
        4 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Dark Confidant
        3 Duress
        4 Force of Will
        2 Daze
        3 Stifle
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Echoing Truth
        1 Chain of Vapor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Engineered Explosives
        3 Chalice of the Void
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Jet
        3 Underground Sea
        3 Volcanic Island
        2 Bloodstained Mire
        2 Flooded Strand
        1 Polluted Delta
        1 Tolarian Academy
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
SB:  1 Fire // Ice
SB:  1 Engineered Explosives
SB:  1 Grim Lavamancer
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  1 Swamp
SB:  1 Island
SB:  1 Mountain
SB:  3 Annul
SB:  1 Pyroblast
SB:  1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Rack and Ruin

I actually tried to fit in a couple of extirpates (2-3) but I eventually cut them for more general use cards. Btw I think Cutpurse is utter trash..... it costs 3 friggin mana and it's disruptive ability is way over-rated.

[ash_ketchum]

the only reason cutpurse is viable is when you play full moxen which I do so I can always play him turn two
I can see why you don't run him because you only run on color mox
his disrupt effect is great though in my opinion

[wethepeople]

I also am not completely sold on Dimir Cutpurse [in URBana], because in a three-color deck, I often times find myself having trouble providing the required mana. 5 Strip-effects, off-color Moxen, and the third color- Red, all are what mess with your mana base within those first few turns, so achieving both and can be stressful.

Something that I recently have been working with was Trinket Mage, as a 3-4'of. This allows me to grab Chalices, EE, accel (pref. Lotus), or whatever you really need at that point in the game. Another plus to Trinket Mage is that it can fetch out Pithing Needle, and Tormod's Crypt, to deal with Ichorid, which will obviously be a very common deck once Future Sight is released.

Engineered Explosives becomes more accessable, so Empty the Warrens will be less-threatening. Bridge from Below also produces great amounts of tokens, so EE also serves as an answer in this match up.

Aether Spellbomb has always been a debatable inclusion, but is yet another option to be added to Trinket Mages vast toolbelt of answers.

There are of course several other good things about Trinket Mage. But overall I think that it is a better choice than Dimir Cutpurse, and would certainly be a fair replacement.

[Engine_number_9]

I've been testing a build with 4 Trinket Mages for just about one and a half month now. It's really a great addition to the deck. First of all Trinket Mage fits the manabase of this deck perfectly. A lot better than any other fish like deck, be it UW fish or Bomberman. Second: Trinket Mage allows the deck to play w/o Waterfront Bouncer/Echoing Truth which both are rather situational. Third: it's good against any kind of deck ranging from Goblins to Gifts. Fourth: this has been said by WTP, but Trinket Mage gives you a chance of beating Ichorid game 1 which, I think, is really big. Finally: Trinket Mage comboes with Ninja generating even more card advantage.
What toolbox should be run with Trinket Mage? Well, I think EE and Crypt should be run as a minimum since they are good against ETW, Fish (Keep in mind that Crypt is spot removal for Grunt), Ichorid (both graveyard and tokens) and Will.   

On the direction of the deck. From my experience the deck, in order to be competitive, has to rely on mana denial. This means playing 4 Stifles and 2-4 dazes in addition to the "normal" mana denial package. If you can slow an opponent's mana development early on, you can take the full advantage of Ninja, Trinket Mage and Confidant 

[ash_ketchum]

The problem with trinket mage is you're not just just taking out spots for mage ,but also for artifacts that the deck doesn't normally play.First let's think of the decks it is played in.There's bomberman and that random counterbalance deck.The reason bomberman plays it is because it gets them their kill condition,lotus.They need the mage because it is part of a combo.Second of all,the counterbalance deck plays it to get top ;also part of a combo.I can't count number of times e-truth won me a game.Also you have only 4 solid targets to get(EE ,crypt ,lotus chalice)and even lotus isn't that great and t-crypt is even more conditional than e-truth.Also ninjaing back a a trinket mage is cool ,but with the given toolbox it's nothing special.If you have any troubles with your mana that you can't get for cutpurse it's time for somebody to do a little rerouting on the mana base.

[Moxlotus]

I agree with Ash.  If the deck can't get 1 then you need to rework the manabase.  Cutpurse is not hard to cast at all.  Rarely would I be able to cast a Trinket Mage and not Cutpurse.

Trinket Mage is trash in this deck.  The stuff it can find aren't very impressive for what URBana wants to do.  Then you have to cut actual good disruption to fit in stuff like EE and Crypt.  What are you guys cutting to fit in all of this artifact stuff?

Trinket Mage does not give you a chance to beat Ichorid, unless you are ont he play and have land, mox, mox, Mage in hand.  And if your opponent is too terrible to not be able to play through a single Crypt.  Ichorid is going to massacre this thing when FS is legal.  If it wants to adapt, it will be with Planar Void (which was played in Becker's original version).

Oh, and E Truth is amazing.  I had 3 in the deck at one time since they are decent-amazing against everything that isn't Long.

[ErkBek]

To echo Phil and Ash, Trinket Mage is marginal in the deck. I tested him for only a few games, but I really didn't like it. One problem I
found was that Mage usually wants to go grab EE (@0) or Crypt, but your Chalices block off playing either of them. Finding a chalice to play at 0 mid game is actually about the best use I concluded (since 4x Mox Monkey can prevent players from dropping all their moxen).

Also, casting cutpurse is just about as difficult as casting mage. For a while, I actually cut all the basics from the deck, because drawing the island can cost you games. I rarely ever fetch out an island because very few of my turn 1 threats cost blue mana, they usually have R or B in the casting cost. I found most of the time casting cutpurse on turn 2 not to be a problem (or turn 3 after a turn 2 wasteland). Cutpurse's disruptive effect is is nice, but the draw effect really buries an opponent. As with SS, 1 hit with cutpurse is usually game, but 2 hits always puts it away.

I think its worth mentioning that together Phil and I both found cutpurse an excellent addition for the new metagame. Ash thought of the addition on his own, tried it, and concluded the exact same thing.......hmmm......must be a good addition.....

[ash_ketchum]

You could also think of cutpurse as an ancestrall recall every time he hits because it's plus 2 card advantage.

[ketchupgun]

This may be a skewed direction, but take what you want from it..I played an unpowered meta with a modified URBana build (ie: Aether vials in place of moxen), then revamped it as such, basically taking parts of WTF, SS and URBana and combining them...this may spark some interest, or at least give someone with better playskills than myself something to test further and consider.

4 Dark Confidants
4 Dimir Cutpurse
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Waterfront Bouncers (i could see these being tossed for Negators..see below)
2 Withered Wretch

2 Jitte
3 Aether Vial
3 CotV
2 Sensei Top

3 Remand
2 Daze
4 FoW
2 Duress

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk

3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 moxlotus
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
5 blue Fetches
1 Island
1 Sol Ring

SB
2 Kira Glass Spinner ( flip with jittes every game 2?) dunno)
2 Red Blst
2 Blue Blst
2 Arcane Lab (anti combo, & control)
2 Diabolic Edicts (anti-oath, aggro)
1 Energy Flux (anti stax)
1 Annul (ani-oath, stax)
3 Rack n Ruin (anti stax)hydrhydroblast


Basically, I didn't like ninja and changed it for Cutpurse (as cutpurse does more, hurts less off a reveal, though is one turn slower). Further thinking got me on a train of thought considering Negator....both in the deck have 3cc, so a vial @3 would be doubly beneficial, and really speed the clock up...but many argue Vial is too slow in vintage.

[arik124]

i would run null rod over vial, go to 3 daze, 4 duress, and no remand, and change the chalices and tops to brianstorms to up the blue count for FoW

[Engine_number_9]

For reference here's a list running Mages. As you'll see it's quite different from the list Becker posted:
// Lands
    2 Island
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Gorilla Shaman
    4 Trinket Mage
    4 Ninja of the Deep Hours

// Spells
    4 Force of Will
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Time Walk
    3 Duress
    4 Stifle
    3 Daze
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 AEther Spellbomb

The main differences being: no Cutpurse, no Chalice, no Remand and no Truth. Instead this list runs: Trinket Mage, Stifle, EE, Crypt and Aether Spell Bomb.


Noone has mentioned what matchups each build is geared to beat, but I guess that especially Beckers build is geared to beat Gifts and different types of combo decks, whilst maintaining a favourable slaver matchup. I believe that it has suceeded i doing great in these particular match-ups.

However a thing that I've found after removing Bouncer from the first URBana list when ETW began seeing play, is that the UW fish and the random aggro match up have become really bad. Especially pre-board. As Moxlotus stated, the matchup against...:

U/W Fish is terrible pre-board

To sum up: You run more colors than they do, making you more vulnerable to their wastelands. You don't run any removal. Your creatures are smaller than theirs. You rely heavily upon your attack phase to draw cards and you run Chalice which is often dead against Fish.

What I've done to solve this problem and the ETW problem is that I've added Trinket Mage. And yes the power level of Trinket Mage is very low, even compared to the normal low power fish cards. What's so good about Trinket Mage in this deck?
It's a beater that stops ETW, kills wheenies, destroys moxen, removes graveyards, and sometimes even fixes your mana. So it's never a dead draw as Chalice and Echoing Truth will be in some matchups. Even if Null Rod is on the table he's still a beater.

The other main difference in this build compared to the Becker build is the addition of 4 Stifles. That's quite many Stifles. Even in a Fish build, that plays a mana denial strategy. But they help you combat ETW (both by preventing access to red mana and actually stifling the storm effect), they stop oath activations, they prevent you from rolling over to wastelands against UW fish and Stax. This, I believe, is very important: From my experience an early wasteland is often enough to seal the game in their favour.
Agianst Gifts and Combo decks that normally play 5-7 fetchlands and a win condition that can be stifled, 4 Stifles shine. It fits the mana denial strategy very well.
While Stifle does'nt turn the Ichorid matchup into a good matchup, it can still stifle Bazaar. Which can be game winning if you manage to waste the Bazaar before they get another upkeep.

What I think is main differences between this build and the various other builds floating around in this thread is that deck a slightly worse matchup against Gifts and Combo due to the Mages. They are still a good matchups, just not as good. In return for this, this deck has a good mathup against fish decks as opposed to a terrible matchup and it has a good matchup against stax as opposed to mediocre matchup.
Basicly the discussion over which deck is better than the other overall is rather misleading. You have to think in matchups before thinking in better/worse terms. So if you think that Trinket Mage is trash in this deck, you might be analysing it in one particular matchup (read: Pitch Long and Long) and not in another (read: UW Fish).

[Moxlotus]

If you want to use Stifle as mana denial, you really want to fit chalices in there to help with the mana denial aspect.  I agree that Stifle rocks.  I love them, but I think you need the Chalices to help the mana denial strategy.  Monkey just isn't enough.

So if you think that Trinket Mage is trash in this deck, you might be analysing it in one particular matchup (read: Pitch Long and Long) and not in another (read: UW Fish). 

If your meta has a lot of U/W, rather than changing the focus of URBana around by weakening all of its other its other matches, honestly you should just change decks.  The reason that U/W beats you is because Grunt is a 4/4.  Mage doesn't stop that.  It might stop it for a turn with Spellbomb (if they havne't played a Rod), but it doesn't do much else.  If they can't find a Grunt, then game is much more winnable.  Game 2 and 3 is a different story because you can have a sideboard that kicks the crap out of them (can't give it away yet--I might play this in a tournament this week) while pulling double duty against other decks.

[Engine_number_9]

If your meta has a lot of U/W, rather than changing the focus of URBana around by weakening all of its other its other matches, honestly you should just change decks.

From my experience with the deck the match ups against against Gifts and combo are still favourable, just not as favourable as before. The removal of chalice does'nt really change that, since the Stifles keep the mana denial strategy intact. It's not as if the Mages are dead in these matchups, they are just not as good as turn 1 Chalice is. However Mages are a lot better in the combo matchup than Echoing Truth which it is replacing. If the match goes on for more than 3 turns - which is very likely considering that I run 4 Stifles, 3 Duress and 3 Dazes in addition to 4 FoW and 5 strips - Trinket Mage can seal the deal in my favour by for example removing their graveyard with Crypt.

The reason that U/W beats you is because Grunt is a 4/4.

From my experience when UW Fish beats me, it is mostly because they run a 2 colors and I run 3. This is where Stifle shines. Normally this deck draws more cards than UW Fish so it can easily trade 2 for 1 with Grunt or it can simply chump block him until he dies to the upkeep cost. 

I believe that in a tournament it's quite important not to autolose game 1 to a deck that is played as much as UW fish is now. As Zherbus stated in the X cc thread, the main 3 decks a deck has to beat in order to be viable are Gifts, combo and UW Fish. This deck can beat those 3.

Mage doesn't stop that.

Mage can fetch Crypt - which I considered more or less as spot removal for Grunt(s) - or Mage can fetch EE - which is mass removal against a deck playing 4-10  2 cc creatures. So not only does Mage stop Grunt, it also stops Meddling Mage and Kataki.


Edit: Spelling and the fact that FS is here

[ash_ketchum]

If you are sooooooo afraid of  fish in the format just run 4 FTfrickingK board.
Some of my original comments on that deck that I was going to write were so harsh that my ears started to bleed and my eyes fell out of their sockets.
I hope none of you  fish players took that personally.

[Engine_number_9]

If you are sooooooo afraid of  fish in the format

The point is not that I'm extremely scared of UW fish. If it was I'd follow MoxLotus's advice and change deck. The point is that having a really bad game 1 against a deck that sees much play, is a bad thing.

....just run 4 FTfrickingK board.

Running FTK is often a suboptimal solution against UW fish since you have to get 3R, which can be really difficult to get in this matchup. Often running Old Man of the Sea or Grim Lavamancer is a more fruitful solution, since Old Man does'nt need R and Lavamancer does'nt need colorless mana.

[ErkBek]

Running FTK is often a suboptimal solution against UW fish since you have to get 3R, which can be really difficult to get in this matchup. Often running Old Man of the Sea or Grim Lavamancer is a more fruitful solution, since Old Man does'nt need R and Lavamancer does'nt need colorless mana.

This is flat out wrong. Test the matchup and FTK. URBana runs 24 mana sources.

[Engine_number_9]

This is flat out wrong. Test the matchup and FTK. URBana runs 24 mana sources.

I have tested it. Both the matchup and FTK. I know that you've done that as well and I respect your results. But anyway I've found that if Null Rod resolves, I too often can't get the 3R before they've either killed me or named FTK with a Meddling Mage.

Edit: Dave Feinstein's latest UW fish - taken from the UW thread - runs 2 Stifles, 3 Null Rod, 3 Kataki, 3 Daze and 5 wastes. Therefore I think that post board it would be logical to try to reduce one's dependence on mana. FTK does the exact opposite of this.

[ErkBek]

This is flat out wrong. Test the matchup and FTK. URBana runs 24 mana sources.

I have tested it. Both the matchup and FTK. I know that you've done that as well and I respect your results. But anyway I've found that if Null Rod resolves, I too often can't get the 3R before they've either killed me or named FTK with a Meddling Mage.

Edit: Dave Feinstein's latest UW fish - taken from the UW thread - runs 2 Stifles, 3 Null Rod, 3 Kataki, 3 Daze and 5 wastes. Therefore I think that post board it would be logical to try to reduce one's dependence on mana. FTK does the exact opposite of this.

Most UW fish players are forced to board out null rod. If they want to keep it in, that's fine, they can blow their hand and tempo on shutting down a mox. What's Feinstein's list play in terms of mana sources? 20 or 21? 3 of which are artifacts shut off by rod or shaman and 5 of which are strips. I also board in 2 or 3 Rack and Ruins to hit rod, jitte, sword F/I, crucible, moxen, and factories (if they play them). I've got 5 strips too. In reality, they're the one in trouble. If they waste my mana sources, I'll waste theirs and then stabilize first.

Meddling mage on FTK is something I've never had become a problem. Maybe I'm just a lucksack but I've always been able to either counter it, REB it, or bounce it. If this becomes a real problem, then I'd maybe play a mix of cards off the sideboard as answers (ie: 2 FTK and 2 Lavamancer).

Back to Mancer vs. FTK. I find it much harder to consistently have R online than it is to hit 4 mana once. I really think you should play some number of FTK's on the board since 2 or 3 are always solid in the slaver matchup.

You know run what you want. If you feel Mancer is better that's cool, run it.

[ash_ketchum]

Just out of curiosity Engine no. 9, where do live in the US where  fish is so bad.Other posters ignore this.

[Moxlotus]

I have tested it. Both the matchup and FTK. I know that you've done that as well and I respect your results. But anyway I've found that if Null Rod resolves, I too often can't get the 3R before they've either killed me or named FTK with a Meddling Mage. 

Getting 4 mana against U/W fish is not a problem.  Despite all of their mana hate, you play as much and play more mana so you will recover faster.  You also play more draw.  As Becker said, if they have Rods you should be boarding in artifact kill anyway to take out their equipment(which if they have will replace Rods) and factories.  I rarely lose against U/W fish because of mana.  It is because they either find Grunt, or I can't find guys.  FTK helps with both of those problems.  If you're worried about U/W, play FTK.

If they have Mage on FTK--good for them.  You have REBs and Echoing Truth (or you SHOULD have REBs and Echoing Truth).

Like I said before, game 2 and 3 against U/W Fish is a joke in the vast majority of games.  It's acceptable to have a bad game against a deck game 1 if you smash them games 2 and 3.