URBana Fish

[Engine_number_9]

Just out of curiosity Engine no. 9, where do live in the US where  fish is so bad.Other posters ignore this.

This question might actually explain some of the differences in our approaches: I don't live in the US. I'm from Denmark - you know the little country that are with you in Iraq.

Geography aside. Any comments on the Stifle issue? I see that my list is the only one running Stifles(!). I think it's worth discussing as Stifle does fit the overall strategy of the deck very well. The overall strategy being: stop ETW, stop Tendrils and, most importantly, stop mana development.

[misslehead3]

Just out of curiosity Engine no. 9, where do live in the US where  fish is so bad.Other posters ignore this.

Couldn't this have just gone into a PM instead of spamming up the forum.

And to make sure I'm not, FTK IS GOLD. Play them over lavamancer at least. When you look at all the red sources you play, being non-basic, and look at all 5 wastelands fish plays, you will see that getting 3R once is much easier then getting R every turn, maybe once it will work but once fish sees what you are doing or even when you play the grim guy they will waste you red source and you will have a 1/1. With FTK you pay 3R once and kill a jotun grunt or w/e and then after that i find myself using them as a win condition more so then all my other little doods. Even if your forced to block with them, they still get you 2-for-1. they don't just kill one thing and be done.

[Moxlotus]

Any comments on the Stifle issue? I see that my list is the only one running Stifles(!). I think it's worth discussing as Stifle does fit the overall strategy of the deck very well. The overall strategy being: stop ETW, stop Tendrils and, most importantly, stop mana development.

I like Stifle.  They help with the mana denial even more and protect yourself against wastes.  You can stifle random stuff like Welder activations too.  Stopping storm is pretty rare.  Trickbind could probably stop storm more, but then it costs 1 more mana.

[Warden]

*Stifle is definately needed. The worst you can use it on is a sac land or a bazaar of baghdad, and when you use it on those, it's basically a timewalk

Hello everyone, thought I'd show you all something ive been playing around with
It's got a different approach, somewhat similar yet somewhat different

Creatures 
3   Dark Confidant   
4   Dimir Cutpurse   
3   Gorilla Shaman 
4   Izzet Guildmage   


Spells 
1   Ancestral Recall   
4   Brainstorm   
3   Daze   
1   Demonic Tutor   
2   Echoing Truth   
4   Force of Will   
4   Magma Jet   
1   Mystical Tutor   
3   Stifle   
1   Time Walk   


Artifacts 
3   Null Rod   


Lands 
3   Flooded Strand   
3   Polluted Delta   
1   Strip Mine   
4   Underground Sea   
4   Volcanic Island   
4   Wasteland   

Izzet Guildmage not only is a nice 2/2, his ability definately comes in handy. I thought it was a so-so card but he really develops into a threat. He's alot better than alot of other options imo.
I don't run Ninja of the Deep Hours because i feel the mana commitment slight tempo-loss isnt worth it. Id much rather have a burn spell
Magma jet is the card of choice for burn. Why? It's got Scry 2 which is so heavily underrated and this combos nicely with Izzet.

I run Mysitcal and Demonic tutor(s) to fetch almost whatever I want
I've thought about playing Fire/Ice...which would replace the Magma Jet only because Ice is occasionally needed over

Im not running Duress...no space available

Sideboard
3   Extirpate (dread return/ghoul/gifts)
4   Leyline of the Void (near-anything nowadays)
4   Chalice of the Void (not too sure if this is overkill)
4   Pithing Needle (always a solid option if facing decks that rely on key compontents, like combo)

I feel it's distinct enough to post. While everyone runs alot of the same cards, I like what Im workin with here. Comments and Suggestions always appreciated
thanks

[Moxlotus]

I don't see why you would ever run a burn spell that's not Fire/Ice in the deck.  And you only run Fire/Ice because it's versatile.

Guildmage looks terrible.  His abilities cost THREE mana, plus whatever you are casting.  Honestly, what instants or sorceries are you casting that is worth duplicating for 3 mana?  When are you having an excess of 3 mana?  Especially when you run 19 mana sources.

Ninja is amazing.  I don't see how you could cut it.  That's one of the pathways on how the deck gets a draw engine going on turn 2--the other being turn 1 Bob.  Why bothering looking at the next 2 draws when you can drop ninja and draw 1 of them now, then draw whatever the next one is during your draw phase.  Cards in hand>knowing what's on top of library.

Every card in the deck should be giving you an advantage somehow.  Magma Jet doesn't really do this.  Guildmage does it for a very high price and at rare times.

The fact that you don't have the moxen and use Null Rod makes your deck completely different.  I'm not sure how you can get by on only 19 mana sources-and no basic islands.

The complete lack of Duress and REB also make me question how strong the deck is against combo and Gifts.  Magma Jet doesn't help you at all.

Why are Brainstorms in the deck?  The deck is so redundant that you just want card draw, not manipulation.  That's one reason why Ninja is so good.

[Warden]

@ Moxlotus:

Hey, Im sorry I didnt get to fill out more. Ive been really busy with everything, let me try to explain what I put and why.
There's been a ton of aggro running around im my parts. I havent played too much post-TS type 1 but "full out combo" isnt as common as aggro/creature based decks. Hence, the magma jet -- which I feel is worth a slot.
I use Izzet's ability on occasion and he also backs up spells I need to copy; not to mention at worst he's a 2/2 for 2cc and can be chucked to a Force of Will
when you combine it with the Time Walk, Recall, Tutors, he really isnt that bad. Sure it's mana commitment but it's also a built in ability.
Is it bad that for 5 mana I take 2 turns? or for 4 mana I draw 6 cards? Even If the opponent counters 1 of them, you suddenly have another turn or at least 6 cards.

4x may is probably too many to run (3x more favorable)

Sorry Im not running moxes bc I dont have the rods (cant find any) or T.W and Recall (5-proxies right there)
I keep playing around with Magma Jet and Fire/Ice and as of right now, im feeling a slight edge to Magma Jet. I understand how important F/I is, i wish I had space to play both Magma and F/I

Ive been on and off with brainstorm. I see why you don't like it but mid-late game, it's never a dull draw
It can instantly turn the tempo to your favor and can be played all throughout the game

With Ninja, he can easily be bounced/burned (totally kills tempo because to replace him you either have to pay the 4cc hardcast OR play a creature (summoning sickness) and attack, be unblocked and pay 2 for his ability which I feel is a waste of time

I used to like running him but unless you have your man unblocked early, he isnt that big of a threat. Plus mid-lategame he is useless

just my rationale on things. It doesnt look too good on paper but somehow plays out pretty good

[Engine_number_9]

I'll try to elaborate on why I think that the comments on your list are correct.

Is it bad that for 5 mana I take 2 turns? or for 4 mana I draw 6 cards?

3 mana to play Guildmage. 5 mana to play and copy Time Walk. That's alot of mana. Even for a fully powered deck, which I see that your list is not. Consider what could be cast off that kind of mana investment instead. Bargain comes to mind, a card that you would never run in a fish deck.
By itself Guildmage is really bad (a 2/2 beater for 3). It's actually only when coupled with the restricted cards on your list that it does something rather good. Why copy Stifle?

So isolated Guildmage is - in my mind - not worth including. Does it have any synergy with the deck overall. That is, does it fit the general strategy of the deck? URBana fish wants to stop an opponent's early development through either discard (Duress), mana disruption (Stifle, Wasteland etc.) or simply by countering spells (FoW, Daze). In order to capitalize on the advantage generated the first few turns the deck plays Confidant, Ninja and Cutpurse, which all are great means of this end. Does Guildmage fit into this strategy? No, it does not. Guildmage is a late-game threat that does not help you early on and does not help you capitalize on the early advantage, since it's very slow. So when Guildmage becomes relevant, the game is very often over. It's a win more card in this deck.

I keep playing around with Magma Jet and Fire/Ice and as of right now, im feeling a slight edge to Magma Jet.

If you can't hit a creature Magma Jet is irrelevant. URBana fish does not win the game by doing damage. It wins by generating overwhelming card advantage and by crippling the opponent. If you want to run a burn spell, run Fire/Ice. It cycles when you don't need it.

Ive been on and off with brainstorm.

I don't see the point in running Brainstorm. You don't need a card filter. The power level of your cards is roughly the same, so it makes more sense to draw  cards than filtering them. The same goes with the scry effect from Magma Jet

With Ninja, he can easily be bounced/burned (totally kills tempo because to replace him you either have to pay the 4cc hardcast OR play a creature (summoning sickness) and attack, be unblocked and pay 2 for his ability which I feel is a waste of time

If they bounce him that's +1 CA in your favor anyway.
If burn is a problem in your area, URBana Fish is a very poor solution, since it thrives on card advantage generated by burnable creatures.

[ash_ketchum]

This is what I would consider doing.

Switch out magma jets for 2 fire/ice.
Switch out null rod for 3 of any combination of REB and pyroblast.
Switch out brainstorm for 3 duress.

This gives 3 extra slots for some mox.
I have a few other comments, but I'm not one who should be molding decks.
It would be awsome though if you could give us some feedback our tourny reports on Izzet Guildmage

[Warden]

3 mana to play Guildmage. 5 mana to play and copy Time Walk. That's alot of mana. Even for a fully powered deck, which I see that your list is not. Consider what could be cast off that kind of mana investment instead. Bargain comes to mind, a card that you would never run in a fish deck.
By itself Guildmage is really bad (a 2/2 beater for 3). It's actually only when coupled with the restricted cards on your list that it does something rather good. Why copy Stifle?

Izzet last time I checked was U/R x 2 which is 2cc to cast (and in a way helps mana base because it can be paid with either U or R)

Thanks for everything else guys...Ill be playtesting a different MD, unfortunately I havent played any tourney's lately because Ive been busy with alot of work 

[Moxlotus]

Well, since my plans to go to a tournament this weekend fell through, here is what I would have played:

Mana:
5 strips
1 Lotus
4 moxen
1 island
3 delta
3 strand
3 volcanic
3 sea

Dudes:
4 Bob
4 Monkey
3 Ninja
3/2 Cutpurse
2/3 Sage of Epityr (that's right, look it up)

Good Stuff:
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical
1 Vampiric

Disruption
3 Chalice
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 REB
1 Echoing Truth
2 Trickbind
1 Fire/Ice

Sideboard:
4 FTK
3 Pithing Needle
2 Shattering Spree
2 Rack and Ruin
3 Spell Snare
1 Arcane Laboratory

Sages are obviously the biggest WTF??  They are actually really good.  They give the deck blue spells # 18 and 19 which is important since many times the number of blue spells goes down after you board.  They are a 1 drop for ninja.  And they even have synergy with ninja!  Plus with 6 fetchlands you can shuffle away the shit at certain times.

The sideboard is pretty standard.  I've fallen in love with Pithing Needle and at one time had 2 in the maindeck.  They rock against Fish (naming equipment, Factory, Old Man) and Stax (pretty much everything in the deck-waste, welder, bazaar, ring, factory, words of war, shard) and aren't bad against Slaver.  Plus with those I don't need to bring in Racks against Fish anymore because Needle covers those problems for 1 mana!  I haven't really tested the Spell Snares--they are for Oath.  I pretty much had 3 open slots for things that weren't slaver, gifts, long, stax, and fish--so why not throw them in at oath.  Yeah, I only have 1 side slot for Long and Gifts replacing the Fire/Ice.  Honestly, there's nothing else I'd really like to cut against those decks.  The deck is pretty much pre-boarded for those matches.  What you cut for each match is probably obvious, but if it isn't (especially if you aren't used to aggro-control) just ask.

This deck pretty much gets bent over when FS becomes legal because it can't deal with new Ichorid lists.  If you need to have 4 Needles, 4 Leylines and possibly Planar Voids to combat it, whiel those cards don't do much against anything else--it's time to learn a new deck.  I figured I'd share it since it will probably never see the light of day anyways.

I think this might be the most fun deck I've ever played.  It ranks up there with IRM for smiles and fun   Seriously, you play with crappy creatures and you win. 

[ash_ketchum]

sage of epitar
That is the worst downgrade for bouncer ever. Even trinket mage is starting to sound good.

[LotusHead]

Just out of curiosity Engine no. 9, where do live in the US where  fish is so bad.Other posters ignore this.

I rarely follow Fish threads (as I won't play fish in a tourney), but this post seemed weird.

In my meta (NorCal Eudemonia series) UW fish has done quite well with it's Daze and Stifle and SB Orim's Chant.

Then again, it may be due to the pilots of said Fish decks.

Engine #9's list got sleeved up by myself for about a month, but got rolled over by my other decks (Gilded Claw and Oath, mainly), but it was insanely fun/good against good decks like Gifts.pwn and Storm.dec.

Why the UW Fish hate?

[Moxlotus]

sage of epitar
That is the worst downgrade for bouncer ever. Even trinket mage is starting to sound good.

Sage of Epityr is actually quite good if you'd give him a try.  As I said, he's another 1-drop to provide Ninja action.  Plus, he combos nicely with Ninja.  I always thought I needed more 1 drops to help Ninja out.  Becker suggested this to me a few months ago and I kinda just blew him off.  Then I actually tried it and I love it.

[Engine_number_9]

I like the list you posted MoxLotus. Save the Trickbinds. I think Stifle fits the overall strategy better.

Sage Epitar might have a spot in this deck for the reasons you pointed out above.

However, I think there are much more pressing issues to address. The first issue is obviously post FS Ichorid. It's beyond doubt that this will impact the metagame alot. What can this deck do about it? I think that a solid sideboard will do the trick: 4 Leyline of the Void and 4 Planar Voids. But with such a huge SB dedication is the deck going to have the adaptability to fight Fish, Combo and Drain? I don't know. One thing to keep in mind is that all other decks, save fast combo, will have to dedicate some (atleast 4) SB spots aswell. This might equal less ETW and Pyroclasm in sideboards. 

The second issue is post FS combo in generel and post FS Flash-combo in particular. With the printing of Pact of Negation (PoN) URBana fish will have to adapt by playing more proactive threats in order to beat combo, since PoN makes counters so much worse. So post FS I'm on the 4-Chalice-4-Duress-and-maybe-even-4-Stifle-team. The key to beating the Hulk Flash version could be Stifle and Chalice since the deck runs 11 permanent mana sources or so. Furthermore Chalice shuts PoN and Summoner's Pact off and Stifle counters Flash trading 2 for 1. What could be replaced to make room these cards? I think a logical exclusion would be Daze, since it's a reactive counter.
As you might have noticed from the other threads in this forum, the SB-cards that work well against Ichorid also work well against Flash.... that's just about the only positive thing I can see from URBana perspektive.

On a sidenote: Yes, Trinket Mage does not have place in - what seems to be - a very fast post FS format.

[Moxlotus]

I like the list you posted MoxLotus. Save the Trickbinds. I think Stifle fits the overall strategy better.
 

Stifle does fit the overall strategy better, but sometimes you just gotta use bullets that don't necessarily work with the strategy as good as you'd want.  As you said, Pact is going to be played once it is legal, and Trickbind doesn't care.  Trickbind is just powerful.  It completely destroys any deck using Tendrils and not having Duress.  Gifts and Pitch Long can't deal with Trickbind game 1.  You will just win games you have no business winning.

But with such a huge SB dedication is the deck going to have the adaptability to fight Fish, Combo and Drain?

My deck only added 1 card against combo and Drains anyway, but the Fish and Stax match used most of the rest of the board.  I could easily cut the 3 Spell Snares and Lab for 4 grave hate cards.  But you need probably at least 6 to have a chance at finding one without mulling to 3.  The maindeck could cut the 2 REBs for 2 Planar Voids (which were in the maindeck of the original URBana fish).  Void is good against the same matches REB is.  That gives 6 grave hate cards plus 3 Needles.  That might be a starting point.  Of course the deck would completely bend over to Oath, but for most of the country that isn't a problem.