Mindcensor Stax

[Xman]

Vegeta

I just threw your deck together and goldfished is a few times.  I never used a Mindcensor, but I beat down with the gathan raiders.  I was generraly able to put a lock together pretty fast, and just went from there.  Sort of reminded me fondly of the bad old days when I could play Trinistax.

But enough rembering.  The deck played suprisingly smooth, even against a Leyline that started in play.  The biggest problem I have with it is the win.  Have you considered anything else?  I know no welder, and I know no giant artifact guys, but whet else could work in your book?  I feel it needs something just a little bigger.

But I liked Mindcensor as a trap piece from the first time I saw it.  I agree that is just might be the piece that brings Stax back to the forefront of decks again.  Like it was years ago.  While Stax has still been a house, it can do even more now.  I think that the strength all prison decks now get because of Aven Mindcensor (and everything the Censor can mess up) makes it a must play in lock decks now.

One interesting question.  Why no Trinisphere?  At all?  I know it is restricted, but still turn 1 can win a game for Stax by the random Shop-> Sphere go

On a side note, I don't think it has been since Mirroden that has actually changed our format this much with all sorts of new decks coming out.  or major new varients of decks.  So far with FS, we have Censor-Stax, Rector-Flash, Hulk-Flash, even more insane Belcher, and it looks like even more combo decks aswell.  Not to mention new variations of many other decks.  I guess I have to say, I like the turmoil that Type 1 is right now.  New deck bloods are always great.

- X

[Myriad Games]

Do you have much trouble with Gathan Raiders and Chalice at zero?

The converted mana cost of Gathan Raiders when you play it as a morph creature is 3. The converted mana cost of morph creatures in play is 0. So there's no problem playing a morph through a Chalice at 0.

 

[Zherbus]

Morphs get countered by Chalice for 0.

Just to put the kabosh on it:

Q: If there is Chalice of the Void with 0 counters on it, will Morph spells be countered if they are played using the Morph ability?

A: Yes. While you pay three to play a face down Morph spell, the converted mana cost of these spells is zero, so Chalice of the Void's ability will trigger.

[Myriad Games]

Morphs get countered by Chalice for 0.

Just to put the kabosh on it:

Q: If there is Chalice of the Void with 0 counters on it, will Morph spells be countered if they are played using the Morph ability?

A: Yes. While you pay three to play a face down Morph spell, the converted mana cost of these spells is zero, so Chalice of the Void's ability will trigger.

I stand corrected. Morph follows the rules for alternative costs, so the converted mana cost on the stack is indeed 0 despite the fact that you pay 3. That explains why you get 0 mana from Drain-ing a morph creature as well.

Consider me kiboched. 

[LennonMarx]

I've been testing the deck for a while now, and I have a few comments/concerns that I like to put out there.

In my meta, gifts is fairly dominant, with a smattering of ichorid and some other rogue/janky decks. Against combo, while Mindcensor is wonderful, this deck (I've been testing Vegeta's build) has very little to combat opposing fast mana. Chalice can't be set for 0 as it counters the deck's only reliable win condition, and the 2 Engineered Explosives, while versitale, aren't enough to slow down the mana of a good combo deck. Tangle Wire is also amazing, but very limited in it's usefulness and only good as timewalk in most cases as there is no way to recycle it. As Vegeta didn't post a sideboard I have no idea what is in there, but as is, the deck doesn't seem optimal as a W/b/g build. At the moment im working on a R/W version of the deck. I think Goblin Welder is just to powerful to not be in any stax build, as it gives the deck resiliency to counter-magic as well as a means to reuse tangle time, get itself out from under it's own sphere/null rod, or even accelerate mana by reusing lotus or a blown up mox. Red also offers the amazing Gorilla Shaman, and Barbarian Ring, which is almost strictly better than Cabal Pit. The only major loss, it seems, is the Leyline of the Void, which in theory can still be played (though I think it is out of place in the main).

Once i get some testing of my R/W build in I will post my thoughts on it, and my list if anyone is interested. Any feedback on my idea's or explanations as to why the list (again, Vegeta's build) is why it is would be appreciated.

[Bill Copes]

I played this version at ELD V (i guess this is a  report of sorts)

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere


4 Dark Confidant
3 Aven Mindcencor
2 Juggernaut
2 Jotun Grunt

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Balance
1 Darkblast
1 Swords To Plowshares

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal

4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Riftstone Portal

SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Swords To Plowshares
1 Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale
2 Razormane Masticore
1 Darkblast
1 Extirpate
2 Defense Grid
*1 can't remember, was probably a plow*

I ended up in 8th place, even though I didn't really deserve to be there. My round 5 opponent scooped to me because he wanted to leave -- can't remember your name, but I have it written down in my journal and can change this later-- I gotta thank you greatly for doing that, and I'm glad I was able to get into the top 8 so that your kindness amounted to something.  I feel dick though, because i made a horrible mistake and was verbally upset about it...  probably a lot more so than I should have been, but fatigue and mono do that kind of thing to you.

I didn't take a single note and might even have my rounds out of order here, but I'll try my best to sum things up.  I don't have my journal with me, so I might skip a name or two.

Round 1 Vs 5color stax deck thing (can't remember your name at the moment, but will fill it in later).  He blew me out game 1 and games 2 and 3 were close but i somehow pulled it out.  I recall confidants doing tons of damage to him and flipping me lots of zeros.

Round 2 Vs Shop/Drain Slaver thing with welders (Mr. Travis Laplante).  I got kicked in the junk 2 games in a row and lost horribly.  I was mesmerized any time he mana drained a spell.  WTF shops and drains?  Unheard of.  I liked what I saw and enjoyed my loss to goblin beats, both welders and warrens, of all things.

Round 3 Vs Bomberman (Dan Cunningham).  I got kicked in the junk 2 games in a row and lost -- I still have yet to win a single match against this mean, mean, mean, mean deck.  I was combo'd out on twice in a row.  But Dan is an awesome cat and I don't mind the loss at all.

Round 4 Vs Gifts (Mr Marek).   Classic match for Marek and I, because we always go to 3 games, and it's always incredibly close.  The match is always good times.  I forget how everything went down.  I probably won game one, game two you tendils'd my ass off.  Game three was an absolute fluke and he should have had the match.  Between memory jar, brainstorms, timetwister, infernal contracts and such, he didn't see a single one of his bounce spells.  Any one of which would have instantly won the game for him.  Seriously, he saw like 40 cards and got nothing.  It was horrible and I felt bad winning in that fashion.  But what can you do?  It's a tournament and you pay to play.

Round 5 (can't remember your name at the moment, but will fill it in later) with a confidant tendrils build.  Game one was the usual shop + trinisphere + strip a land + juggernaut win.  Game two was really close and fun and exciting.  He was down to one and had a confidant on the board.  Flipped a lotus petal on his upkeep before he won.  I think this is the game where I saw the best play of the day, where he darkblasted both of my confidants at once with the help of a brainstorm.  Darkblast is so good.  Game three I effed up really bad after having near complete control of the match and got really mad at myself, cursing out loud with each card drawn that didn't help me.  I feel bad about not being courteous of my opponent or the other players around me and getting so frustrated and I apologize if it bothered anybody.

In case this situation ever comes up for anybody:  if you ever have a chalice for 0 out with a sphere of resistance in play, and heaven forbid, if you even play it, your smokestack has already eaten your opponents whole board, GET RID OF THE SMOKESTACK AND NOT THE CHALICE.  I want to flog myself for throwing that away.  I ate my chalice and he dropped all kinds of artifacts and could easily win and essentially did, but he scooped at the last minute and gave me the match.  Thanks again for that... I certainly didn't deserve it with the way I was cussing and fussing.

Round 6 SS (Adam?  I think?  The nice guy with the curly hair)  Game one I barely remember, but he kept a hand of 7 that didn't have force of will and it ended up mattering a whole lot.  Not sure how I won, but I did relatively quickly.  Game two was essentially the same, I think.  Smokestacks and null rods ruled hardcore here.  I think darkblast did, too.


Top 8 Vs. The Boring Deck (Richard Shay).

He already wrote this up in his report and didn't go into any detail, because there was no detail to go into.  I can't and didn't beat it game one.  Game two I had to keep a shitty hand because it had leyline in it.  I guess he drew ichorid nut draws both games because didn't even have to mulligan.  Quickest and lamest top 8 match I've had to date (because of the matchup, Mr. Shay is a true gentleman).  Note to self: start maindecking graveyard hate.

So there you have it.  My sideboard was kinda terrible.  Extirpate and defense grids were essentially useless all day.  The only games where I was able to successfully cast mindcensor were against gifts.  Other than that, they were stuck in my hand the whole day.  I might just move them to the side and go with duresses or something.  They're not nearly as hot as I thought they would be.  Not counting them out yet -- this was only one day, vs. 6 decks.  Who knows where things are going from here.

[Sextiger]

All the other bulids running Mindcensor are running Ancient Tombs. I can see you having a hard time casting them when you run no tombs and your riftstone portal doesn't seem to have a way to get into the graveyard for use besides wasting your own land or saccing to Smokestack.

[Bill Copes]

All the other bulids running Mindcensor are running Ancient Tombs. I can see you having a hard time casting them when you run no tombs and your riftstone portal doesn't seem to have a way to get into the graveyard for use besides wasting your own land or saccing to Smokestack.

Yes and yes.  I've actually discussed these things somewhat in depth at the tournament with a few people.  To start with the latter, I put in the portal knowing those would be the only ways to get it into the grave.  I just wanted to try it.  I always have to sac something to smokestack.  It was only a problem in one game.  Unless I add some bazaars at some point, it's going back to either being a fetchland or an urborg T.O.Y.

I've talked about tombs with a few people, too.  I hate them with confidants.  HATE them.  Way too much life loss.  So now I ask myself, do I run something janky lifegain, or play less Mindcensors?  Mincensor is strong and definitely patches up some weakspots, but I have won without it quite a bit.  I'll probably try them again, with some extensive manabase fiddling, to get them to work.  Maybe there's something better than ancient tomb that i'm missing.

I do know that until I've deemed them too slow to be relevant, I'm keeping confidants.  The advantage they provide over the course of a game is amazing.  I've rarely died to them, even with running so many 3 and 4 cc cards.

[Sextiger]

You could try something like Coalition Relic.  They are a permanent, tap for any color you need, and if your short on colored mana you can store it til you really need to cast something. 

[Jo84]

if you want to play with Censors you should add some Tombs, maybe a Mana Crypt instead of Petal, too...

My actual test list for my U/W-Censorstax is:
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Mishra's Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb

5 Solo-Moxen
1 Black Louts
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

3 Juggernaut
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Glowrider
3 Grand Arbiter Augustin
2 Gathan Raiders
2 Meddling Mage

3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
2 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 In The Eye of Chaos

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

maybe I should try CotV instead of SoR, cause SoR owns me too much...
and Glowrider and Eye of Chaos are really bad against aggro, so any ideas what to sideboard against aggro... I thought of Chill and Ghostly Prison, maybe Engineered Explosives... what do you think?

[Bill Copes]

Against aggro, I always have success with plows and Jotun grunts.

I guess before I make any solid suggestions, I should ask -- What types of aggro do you particularly face?  For fishy decks, just run more + bigger creatures.  If you're talking goblins, then i'd say mass removal.

Have you had to face the new ichorid deck yet?  If so, what is your plan against it?

How have tangle wires been for you without a means to recur them?

[Jo84]

Well, mainly i have to face fish followed by gobbos, my actual Sideboard would be:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Meddling Mages (cut the mainboard ones for another Gathan Raider and a Tangle Wire)
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Juggernaut
1 Gathan Raider
2 Tormod's Crypt

I have no expirience against Ichorid at all, it isn´t that popular in Germany, but Meddling Mage (against Dread Return), Ghostly Prison, Crypts and Swords are hopefully enough answers to it, if I will have to face an Ichorid someday xD

about Tangle Wire: well, now I feel a bit like this deck goes into Aggro Workshop... most times Tangle Wire comes when two or three Fatties are on the board and buy me the time to win, so I don´t need to recur it.

And as the deck has more "pay more" Permaments (and Glowrider, Eye of Chaos and Augustin don´t bother you that much), I feel more safe in planning the hard lock... in former times, I had to wire my opponent, to be sure to set up a lock he couldn´t escape from.

about aggro:
most times I face aggro, it´s Fish (played UWBFish the last two tournaments, too)... I hope the additional Juggernaut, Gathan Raider, Chalice of the Void and some Swords will handle that problem.

[Bill Copes]

Well, mainly i have to face fish followed by gobbos, my actual Sideboard would be:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Meddling Mages (cut the mainboard ones for another Gathan Raider and a Tangle Wire)
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Juggernaut
1 Gathan Raider
2 Tormod's Crypt

I have no expirience against Ichorid at all, it isn´t that popular in Germany, but Meddling Mage (against Dread Return), Ghostly Prison, Crypts and Swords are hopefully enough answers to it, if I will have to face an Ichorid someday xD

about Tangle Wire: well, now I feel a bit like this deck goes into Aggro Workshop... most times Tangle Wire comes when two or three Fatties are on the board and buy me the time to win, so I don´t need to recur it.

And as the deck has more "pay more" Permaments (and Glowrider, Eye of Chaos and Augustin don´t bother you that much), I feel more safe in planning the hard lock... in former times, I had to wire my opponent, to be sure to set up a lock he couldn´t escape from.

about aggro:
most times I face aggro, it´s Fish (played UWBFish the last two tournaments, too)... I hope the additional Juggernaut, Gathan Raider, Chalice of the Void and some Swords will handle that problem.

This all sounds good to me.  I might revisit tangle wire if things ever slow down in my neck of the woods.  For now I have to pursue different avenues.  Bigger guys and chalice at 2 are probably your best route to victory against fish.

[Jo84]

yesterday I had some tests against Manaless Ichorid and Oath (unpowered).

against Ichorid I recognized, that the Sideboard fits well, preboard I rarely won, but after boarding your chances are about 70:30. I´m not sure, but wouldn´t pithing needle on bazaar shut down that deck?

Oath is another troublesome Matchup, as the Eye of Chaos are useless, you have to stick to sphere and glowrider, to prevent an Oath of Druids coming into play, which is game over almost all the time... after Sideboard nothing changes... Swords only help, if they don´t board in their Sky Swallowers and Chalice and Meddling Mage are often too late. Any ideas, what could be done against this matchup? ((unpowered) Oath is played pretty commonly in my area)
Ray of Revelation might be good, but I´m playing U/W not W/G, so Disenchant might be the better one.
Dupes are worse than Swords in my build and Spawning Pit is no solution in this build.

[Phele]

What about Kami of the Ancient Law? Together with Meddling Mage you should be fine against Oath whereas I don't think in general it's such a good idea to run with Meddling Mage a two colored card in an artifact build with not too many colored mana sources.

[Jo84]

yes, I know, that´s why I cut them mainboard for In the Eye of Chaos... also they don´t have any synergy with augustin...
but if you play U/W-Stax I can´t see another card in that color-combination that might fit the theme of this stax build, which is (way too) much focussed on hindering the opponent to play anything.

Kami or Ronom Unicorm is a good idea, I gonna try them next time.

[yespuhyren]

You could try something like Coalition Relic.  They are a permanent, tap for any color you need, and if your short on colored mana you can store it til you really need to cast something. 

Coalition Relic is only for the next turn.  You must add the mana at the beggining of next turn's precombat mainstep, giving you a maximum of 2 mana that turn if you store one.

[mox apricot]

This might seem a little strange, but since your running ancient tombs, and a lot of white sources, you should consider Return to Dust in board as a 1 of. I’ve always wanted to find an excuse to run it over rack and ruin for the rfg, and it seems like it could fit.

[Vegeta2711]

Vegeta

I just threw your deck together and goldfished is a few times.  I never used a Mindcensor, but I beat down with the gathan raiders.  I was generraly able to put a lock together pretty fast, and just went from there.  Sort of reminded me fondly of the bad old days when I could play Trinistax.

But enough rembering.  The deck played suprisingly smooth, even against a Leyline that started in play.  The biggest problem I have with it is the win.  Have you considered anything else?  I know no welder, and I know no giant artifact guys, but whet else could work in your book?  I feel it needs something just a little bigger.

But I liked Mindcensor as a trap piece from the first time I saw it.  I agree that is just might be the piece that brings Stax back to the forefront of decks again.  Like it was years ago.  While Stax has still been a house, it can do even more now.  I think that the strength all prison decks now get because of Aven Mindcensor (and everything the Censor can mess up) makes it a must play in lock decks now.

One interesting question.  Why no Trinisphere?  At all?  I know it is restricted, but still turn 1 can win a game for Stax by the random Shop-> Sphere go

On a side note, I don't think it has been since Mirroden that has actually changed our format this much with all sorts of new decks coming out.  or major new varients of decks.  So far with FS, we have Censor-Stax, Rector-Flash, Hulk-Flash, even more insane Belcher, and it looks like even more combo decks aswell.  Not to mention new variations of many other decks.  I guess I have to say, I like the turmoil that Type 1 is right now.  New deck bloods are always great.

- X

Why no Trinisphere? Mostly to see if the deck functioned sufficently without running it, since I was cutting Shops at that time. I would add one over the normal Spheres if you keep three like I did.

Gathan Radiers were the biggest guys I could work into the deck without running guys like Karn or splashing for Tinker. Honestly if you really need one big beater, your best bets are either Razormane or Karn as singletons / two-of's.

Also I'd consider running Tormod's Crypt in the main in addition or possibly over Chalice of the Void. Decks simply cannot go off early without amazing luck when they are unable to use their graveyard. Crypt + Leyline makes that a possibility and also gives you game against Ichorid even once they board in anti-hate.

The reason I don't run red, is because to me Welder is too slow to be of use most of the time. The Crucible engine is bad enough, but at least that directly impacts the board position via Strips. Welder, unless it's recurring a Tangle Wire, makes no impact on the board position for multiple turns in a row. It's best use is against countermagic, but the biggest offender with countermagic, i.e. Gifts isn't this decks greatest concern anymore. No you have to worry about surviving your first couple of turns against combo or Ichorid and then trying to win the game from there.