Mindcensor Stax

[Imsomniac101]

Link to the previous discussion on the card itself: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32743.0

There I posted a preliminary list at the bottom of the page, but sadly got no replies. Here's what I said in the other thread about Aven Mindcensor:

I took Chang's list, cut 3 WS, stuck 4 Ancient Tombs in it's stead. The Tombs also have the added advantage of being able to actually use mana from it to cast coloured spells. Life loss is obviously a worry, but because the Tombs add to the consistency of the deck, I think it is a worthwhile tradeoff. At first, I was thinking of going about via the Uba Stax route, but I decided to stick with 5c Stax as it was what I was most familiar with. Besides, nowadays, the faster decks run so much tutoring that I decided Mindcensor>Uba. I've also added Null Rod, since I haven't played it in so long, I was getting nostalgic about the days of Fish. I wouldn't be surprised if this list shifted toward a more Cron style list that I might end up with a cross between Cron/Uba Stax.

I think that people are severely underestimating the power of Aven Mindcensor. The whole format revolves around tutoring, that it's effect cannot be overlooked. From Fetchlands to the Restricted Tutors to Gifts + Intuition. People are limiting the possibilities they see in the card, because they see the 2/1 creature and automatically assume it goes in an aggro deck. I believe that a deck in somewhat the same vein as the one I've posted is the key to abusing it.

I still hold the same view

I was then pm'ed by AbdullahtheButher who was intrigued by my preliminary list:

Hi, I like your list and wanted to discuss it with you, but I felt I shouldn't clog up the thread with deck discussion.

Do you find that 4 Cities, 4 Tombs, Barbarian Ring, Vamp, Imperial Seal, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault deal too much damage to you collectively?  I'd try dropping at least the crypt and vault for 2 more shops -- it will ensure that you'll still be able to drop important lock-pieces turn one.  Also, you're running null rods (which RULES in stax), so more artifact mana isn't really something you want.

I think Aven Mindcensor has the potential to push this archetype back to where it used to be.  It singlehandedly solves all of stax's problems, hindering the opponents ability to find an answer to your board.  Adding a luck factor to fetch lands alone is beautiful.  If this card becomes as big as I hope, people will have to completely change how they build their manabases in order to adapt.

I made some tweaks to your list.  Try it if you like, ignore them if not.

        4 City of Brass
        3 Gemstone Mine
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Ancient Tomb
        3 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Barbarian Ring
        3 Wasteland
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Mishra's Factory
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald

        1 Bazaar of Baghdad
        1 Duplicant
        1 Sundering Titan
        3 Null Rod
        1 Trinisphere
        3 Sphere of Resistance
        3 Crucible Of Worlds
        4 Tangle Wire

        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Balance
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Tinker
        3 Goblin Welder
        1 Crop Rotation
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Gorilla Shaman
        1 In the Eye of Chaos
        3 Aven Mindcensor

After playing a few games, it became clear that the damage adds up really quick. I think Abdullah was on the right track cutting Vault and adding in extra Workshops. However, I would not go as far as cutting Crypt. After a few more games, the welders just weren't cutting it anymore. I found I was relying more on the non-artifacts for a hard lock, and using the artifacts to supplement them, or just set a soft lock early on so I can clamp down on my opponent later. I considered Cron's approach to Stax, and rather impressed. I decided to just cut Welder and Tangle Wire immediately and the deck has been far better off ever since.

The new list
//NAME: Mindcensor Stax
        4 City of Brass
        1 Bazaar of Baghdad
        3 Gorilla Shaman
        3 Dark Confidant
        2 In the Eye of Chaos
        4 Aven Mindcensor
        1 Raze
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Ancient Tomb
        2 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Mana Crypt
        4 Chalice of the Void
        1 Engineered Explosives
        3 Null Rod
        1 Trinisphere
        3 Crucible Of Worlds
        4 Wasteland
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Balance
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Crop Rotation
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Demonic Consultation
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Gemstone Mine
//  Sideboard:
SB:  1 Sundering Titan
SB:  1 Tinker
SB:  2 Engineered Explosives
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
SB:  1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Pyroblast
SB:  3 Sphere of Resistance

Why no Welder?
Without Welder in the deck, I cut all the expensive artifacts. I wasn't hard casting Smokestack, what made me think that Duplicant and Titan were gonna cut it? When I added the powerful coloured spells to the maindeck, the power of Welder went down proportionally. When I cut Tangle Wire, I cut the number of Welders down to two, but I realised that they and the expensive artifacts were ruining the consistency of the deck. The overall synergies within the deck increased as soon as I cut Welder and his chums. After cutting Welder, I began to see Kevin Cron's reasoning for cutting Welder. I was suitably inspired by his list as well: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10203.html

No Smokestack.
See Ray Robilliard's thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28988.0
When I originally read Robilliard's thread, I thought that he was crazy. Wasn't the deck named after the card? However after games in which I was consciously keeping track of Smoky's effect on the game, I realized Ray was onto something. The format has sped up to the point where the turns required to charge up Smoky just to get your opponent to sac his worst permanent were far too precious. I won't say no more on this subject. Please read what has already been said in Ray Robilliard's thread

On Workshop vs Tomb
I originally had 4 Tombs and 1 Workshop, when I cut Welder, I found that I wasn't running enough artifacts to make Workshop useful, and just cut the last one. The original premise for replacing Workshop with Tomb was that Tomb could be used for powering out artifacts AND powerful non-artifact lock pieces. That is still true for the most part, and for a while I had only 4 Tombs and 0 Workshops. However, as Abdullah and many of the astute will notice immediately with playing a manabase containing Tombs and Cities is that the damage adds up really quickly. I solved this problem by replacing the Barbarian Ring with  a 4th Gemstone Mine, cutting the 4th Tomb, and added 2 Workshops back in. Then I added more artifacts to make Workshop worth it, most notably Chalice.

But if damage is such a problem, then why Confidant?
The Confidants might bring up question marks, but I've just found them to be a fantastic addition, I think 3 is the right number, mainly because the damage in this deck adds up. They ensure that you can keep the pressure on your opponent, plus they put a clock on your opponent.

Why so few artifacts?
The reasons are many. For one, combo decks already pack a couple of mass artifact bouncers like Hurkyl's Recall; reducing the number of artifacts, and varying the type of permanents you play gives you greater resiliency against this. The reduction in number of artifacts is also a side effect of cutting Welder (see above). The second reason is the mana base. Abdullah's list runs 3 Workshops in addition to 4 Tombs, I think this is right if you are running a high number of artifacts, but that reduces the consistency with which you can cast your coloured spells.

The long forgotten power of Null Rod
For a while, Null Rod was recognized as the most powerful mana hoser in the format. However, recent developments have seen Null Rod fall out of favor because of the speed of the format. The primary abuser of Null Rod, Fish, could only cast Null Rod on turn 2 at the fastest. The format has developed to the point where decks that are vulnerable to Null Rod could deal with it if it came down later than turn 2. At a time when many had forgotten, Vroman came along and reminded the Vintage community what it feels like to be broken by the Rod. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=25734.0.

NB: Will finish this post later, mods please dont delete.

[Fisherman]

I would try to fit Pithing Needle in there somewhere. With Ichorid becoming more popular, you are going to need it. How often do you find yourself with dead cards in hand due to Null Rod/Aven Mindcensor's abilities..?

[Grand Inquisitor]

1 Raze
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Demonic Consultation

Also, while this definitely cripples the manabase and messes with tutors, what does it have as answers to EtW?  Or DSC?

[Bill Copes]

I like where you're going with this list.  I think the proportion of artifact and non-artifact spells is a little too far on the non-artifact side (you only have 8 reliable sources to cast them).  I only find a few slots questionable.

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Raze
2 In the Eye of Chaos

Is the intention of this deck for this month, or will it extend farther than that?  Once May 20th comes around, this thing is going to get run over by a zombie token bus (don't worry, I'm scared too).

I think this will have an fine matchups with the new combo decks that will be around, but it's going to die to ichorid.  I think you're going to have to tool the sideboard and 3-6 maindeck slots to handle that menace.  Of the top of my head, I think of the usual answers --- Plows, Leylines, Darkblasts, Extirpates, Tabernacles.  I fear that shop players are going to have to think a little farther outside the box than normal to be able to win that matchup.  I have some ideas, but I don't know if they're worth talking about here.

Anyway, I'd swap out those 4 slots for some answers (2 echoing truth, 2 extirpate.)

[Fisherman]

Engineered explosives takes care of tokens. Doesn't it..?

Also, is Bazaar of Baghdad worth it without Goblin Welder?

[Bill Copes]

I just don't think explosives is enough.  Even if you have 3, post sideboard,  they can keep making tokens every turn.  You'll have to attack them on multiple fronts to win.

Bazaar + confidant is a wonderful draw engine.  Bazaar is great in that it helps you filter out junk for playable cards.  Confidant offsets your discard loss and digs deeper as well. 

[Fisherman]

I just don't think explosives is enough.  Even if you have 3, post sideboard,  they can keep making tokens every turn.  You'll have to attack them on multiple fronts to win.

I agree, that is why I think Pithing Needle and at least one Tormod's Crypt should be included in the main deck.

[yespuhyren]

My last build of Jester had 3 Tormod's Crypt maindeck and I was never disappointed.

[Bill Copes]

My last build of Jester had 3 Tormod's Crypt maindeck and I was never disappointed.

I think this is the correct way to go now.  Mox monkies are going to ensure that you'll be able to cast these if chalice for 0 hit play (obvious, I know).  I think the sideboard will need 4 leyline, and perhaps 1-3 other varied answers.  From seeing what lists have surfaced so far, they only run artifact and enchantment hate in their boards, with the exception of a stray massacre here or there.  I'm thinking (and i'm probably wrong) that the monkey wrench in dredge.dec's game plan is going to be creature based.  I'm going to try things  like withered wretches and glowriders -- things that aren't fast enough on their own, but together with the rest of the deck's disruption, prevent them from going nuts on you.

Granted, you probably have to win the die roll for anything to work.  Time will tell.

[Imsomniac101]

1 Raze
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Demonic Consultation

Also, while this definitely cripples the manabase and messes with tutors, what does it have as answers to EtW?  Or DSC?

I see you picked up on the weak slots. All of the above can easily be replaced with cards of your liking. Raze is something I'm trying out, it is just an extra strip. I have yet to draw it in an actual game. The EE is something that I added to shore up weakness against EtW, although ideally your opponent won't be able to cast it. D.Consult has been bitter-sweet for me. Whenever I need a one-of (most likely EE or Balance) Consult is not the tutor you want to see. However, when tutoring for cards of which there are multiples in your deck to establish a better board position, it has been godly. Definitely play around with these three slots.

I thought DSC has been all but abandoned?

I would try to fit Pithing Needle in there somewhere. With Ichorid becoming more popular, you are going to need it. How often do you find yourself with dead cards in hand due to Null Rod/Aven Mindcensor's abilities..?

Mindcensor only affects your opponent, so your concern is invalid there. Null Rod breaks your opponents back much more than it hurts you. It is definitely worth running. As for how often it hurts you? I haven't run into many situations where you had to choose between being able to play your mana and killing your opponents mana. Although admittedly, the deck is still in its developmental stage.

I like where you're going with this list.  I think the proportion of artifact and non-artifact spells is a little too far on the non-artifact side (you only have 8 reliable sources to cast them).  I only find a few slots questionable.

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Raze
2 In the Eye of Chaos

Is the intention of this deck for this month, or will it extend farther than that?  Once May 20th comes around, this thing is going to get run over by a zombie token bus (don't worry, I'm scared too).

I think this will have an fine matchups with the new combo decks that will be around, but it's going to die to ichorid.  I think you're going to have to tool the sideboard and 3-6 maindeck slots to handle that menace.  Of the top of my head, I think of the usual answers --- Plows, Leylines, Darkblasts, Extirpates, Tabernacles.  I fear that shop players are going to have to think a little farther outside the box than normal to be able to win that matchup.  I have some ideas, but I don't know if they're worth talking about here.

Anyway, I'd swap out those 4 slots for some answers (2 echoing truth, 2 extirpate.)

I am definitely looking to this type of deck to go past the present meta. We will have to wait for the post-FS metagame to consolidate itself before we can make any hard adjustments.

As for those 4 slots. I've already talked about the top 2. I would not cut In the Eye of Chaos. It has been nothing but utter goodness to me. Against blue decks, it is half of a hard lock, and when combined with the mana disruption of the deck, it becomes a virtual two-card hard lock. This card definitely stays.

As for Echoing Truth and Extirpate; ET is definitely not a good card in this deck. You prefer your answers to permanently take out your opponents board, because you do not have the ability to kill your opponent in the small window of opportunity bounce spells afford you, unlike the combo-control decks. Extirpate is something I've already looked into. It is definitely doesn't cut it against Ichorid.

Engineered explosives takes care of tokens. Doesn't it..?

Also, is Bazaar of Baghdad worth it without Goblin Welder?

At first, Bazaar was just a remnant of the old ChangStax list I used as a starting point. However, it's proven itself to be excellent with Confidant, as Abdullah said. In addition to that, you still have synergy with Crucible.

As for everyone worried about Ichorid:
I believe that if you were to devote Sb spaces to this matchup, then Yixlid Jailer is definitely the way to go. Right now almost all of the decklists I've seen have all of their SBs tuned to beat enchantment and artifact hate. Yixlid Jailer sidesteps the counter hate, and is both a proactive and reactive solution unlike Leyline, which seems to be one of the more popular choices. I think Crypt maindeck is a fine choice, though the anti-synergy with Rods is somewhat of a concern.

Right now, I'm looking at replacing the Tinker-Titan slots in the SB.

[Imsomniac101]

I'm rather disappointed with the number of replies to my thread

Anyway, the rumors and hype of post FS vintage are starting to materialize themselves in the form of decklists. The heavily hyped Protean Hulk combo lists looks very weak against the heavy disruption base of this deck. The Ichorid match may be solved via the addition of Yixlid Jailer to the SB. The hype that surrounded Belcher seems to have died down, but I still think it will be around. The Belcher matchup is really stupid when played out.

Thoughts of this deck in the post FS meta anyone?

My current list:
//NAME: Untitled Deck
        4 City of Brass
        1 Bazaar of Baghdad
        3 Gorilla Shaman
        3 Dark Confidant
        2 In the Eye of Chaos
        4 Aven Mindcensor
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Ancient Tomb
        2 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Mana Crypt
        4 Chalice of the Void
        2 Tormod's Crypt
        1 Engineered Explosives
        3 Null Rod
        1 Trinisphere
        3 Crucible Of Worlds
        4 Wasteland
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Balance
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Crop Rotation
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Gemstone Mine
//  Sideboard:
SB:  3 Yixlid Jailer
SB:  2 Engineered Explosives
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  1 Demonic Consultation
SB:  1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Pyroblast
SB:  3 Sphere of Resistance

[LotusHead]

        3 Gorilla Shaman
        3 Dark Confidant
              4 Aven Mindcensor
      //  Sideboard:
SB:  3 Yixlid Jailer

Is beating with weenies really the way to go?
I like the concept of Mindcensor Stax (as hosing all fetchlands/tutors/Gifs/Tinkers seems pretty awesome.

[MadManiac21]

After looking over your more recent list, I have a few comments and questions.

- I completely agree with cutting SoR; making your 2W lock piece cost 3W is very bad news, but I am befuddled as to why you cut tangle wire. Care to explain?

- If your main lock card stops your opponent from searching their library, why aren't you running Ghost Quarter?

- Running 4 tutor effects (with no Tinker??) along with Mindcensor is questionable. I would stick to Demonic/Vampiric/Tinker. You don't want your own lock pieces cutting out more than 2-3 cards of your deck.

- I really don't get the inclusion of the monkeys and confidants after you've already dropped welder from the list. What are you trying to play CotV for? Remember, you don't want to cut off your own deck, which is why most Stax lists run as few 2 casting cost cards as possible.

- 3 Gorilla, 3 Null Rod, and 4 CotV seems overly redundant in the MD. Stax isn't seeing much play these days, so you want to pick off the artifact mana that's cast by combo decks right? I'd stick to Null Rod and CotV. Maybe throw shamens in the SB. But if you're playing them as a counter to other Stax lists, you're better off with heretic.

- If you do the above, you have to figure out the graveyard hate situation. Running crypt alongside rod and CotV maindeck won't work.

- You need to have 1-2 FAT artifact things that are just bombs. Titan, Trisk, whatever your heart fancies.

Theres just too many conflicting card choices at the moment. The "classic" stax game is Step 1: Slow the game down to a halt. Step 2: Destroy their mana. I'm not exactly sure this list does either at the moment; it looks more like a hybrid fish/stax list with all the weenies that does not have a clear gameplan.

Maybe consider the Uba mask route. What Uba Mask did was punish your opponent for drawing cards, or trying to find answers, much like Mindcensor does. Stax is all about resource denial, try and focus more on that.

[Imsomniac101]

        3 Gorilla Shaman
        3 Dark Confidant
              4 Aven Mindcensor
      //  Sideboard:
SB:  3 Yixlid Jailer

Is beating with weenies really the way to go?
I like the concept of Mindcensor Stax (as hosing all fetchlands/tutors/Gifs/Tinkers seems pretty awesome.

Yeah, I actually considered moving a couple of Smokies back into the maindeck, to provide a better clock. Still considering that option, but the meta would have to slow down for that to be a serious consideration.

- I completely agree with cutting SoR; making your 2W lock piece cost 3W is very bad news, but I am befuddled as to why you cut tangle wire. Care to explain?

Tangle Wire is weak without Welder. Welder is far too weak at the moment.

If your main lock card stops your opponent from searching their library, why aren't you running Ghost Quarter?

Ghost Quarter is far too weak without Mindcensor.

- Running 4 tutor effects (with no Tinker??) along with Mindcensor is questionable. I would stick to Demonic/Vampiric/Tinker. You don't want your own lock pieces cutting out more than 2-3 cards of your deck.

Sigh.....Mindcensor only affects your opponent. I cut Tinker, because there were no big artifacts left in the deck, because I cut Welder. This makes your opening hands way more consistent, and ensures that you have a consistent number of explosive hands (very important in the current meta).

- I really don't get the inclusion of the monkeys and confidants after you've already dropped welder from the list. What are you trying to play CotV for? Remember, you don't want to cut off your own deck, which is why most Stax lists run as few 2 casting cost cards as possible.

CotV is highly flexible, I don't mind casting it at either 1 or 2 because the decks that are afraid of those numbers are far more vulnerable to it than I am. Think Chalice for 1 in UbaStax against CS.

- 3 Gorilla, 3 Null Rod, and 4 CotV seems overly redundant in the MD. Stax isn't seeing much play these days, so you want to pick off the artifact mana that's cast by combo decks right? I'd stick to Null Rod and CotV. Maybe throw shamens in the SB. But if you're playing them as a counter to other Stax lists, you're better off with heretic.

The redundancy ensures that you always have a way of crippling your opponent's manabase. I'm not concerned with the Stax mirror.

- If you do the above, you have to figure out the graveyard hate situation. Running crypt alongside rod and CotV maindeck won't work.

Yes, I am concerned with that. I'm currently searching for better graveyard hate options.

You need to have 1-2 FAT artifact things that are just bombs. Titan, Trisk, whatever your heart fancies.

They're good for sure, but without Welder, they sit in your hand dead a high percentage of the time. I've tweaked the deck to the point where its opening hands are much more consistent than regular Stax.

Theres just too many conflicting card choices at the moment. The "classic" stax game is Step 1: Slow the game down to a halt. Step 2: Destroy their mana. I'm not exactly sure this list does either at the moment; it looks more like a hybrid fish/stax list with all the weenies that does not have a clear gameplan.

How are there too many conflicting card choices? The only ones that conflict are Null Rods against Crypt and EE. I've already admitted that those slots are flexible, and am searching for better options. The clock of the deck is also a weakness and I'm working on it. The game plan of the deck is just to use your artifacts and mana denial to slow your opponent down, then put  a hammer lock on your opponent with either Mindcensor or In the Eye of Chaos, or even lock him down with the mana denial itself.

Maybe consider the Uba mask route. What Uba Mask did was punish your opponent for drawing cards, or trying to find answers, much like Mindcensor does. Stax is all about resource denial, try and focus more on that.

Uba Mask is far too weak in the current meta. How many of the current decks draw a ton of cards?

[MadManiac21]

Whoops, completely misread Mindcensor. Anways, some more comments/questions:

- I still think it is worth it to add tinker/titan. You need at least one sort of fat bomb that you can just tutor up or have fall into your lap.

- You really wouldn't even run ghost quarter as a one of? I don't see why not, especially when you're running multiple Crucibles. Everyone knocks it, and it's only ever been good for me in my Stax lists (as at least a 1-of).

- As for chalice + weenies, I still think that's a problem. You mentioned Uba Stax casting chalice at 1; Uba stax didn't really mind losing welder to cut off spells because of what Uba Mask does. When I played Uba Mask I was more than happy to drop a chalice at 1 against any opponent, because I knew they were going to have more dead cards than I was.

- I'm going to disagree with your assessment on Uba Mask. Much like how you're chosing to run Mindcensor because "every deck runs tutors/fetches", every deck that you're attempting to hate/beat with this (combo, control, fish) draws cards.

- Maybe leylines in the board over crypts? You run enough colored sources plus tombs that you can hardcast it (albeit not easily).

The more I look at the list the more I feel it's a 4-5c Fish list. The workshops look out of place. If you lose the shamen and the crop rotate, you can cut the deck to a 3-color blue/black/white. This would then let you run stuff like Jotun grunt and Leyline as graveyard hate alongside CotV and N.Rod. I just really feel that this is a fish list that's evolved from an estranged body of a Stax list.

[Imsomniac101]

- I still think it is worth it to add tinker/titan. You need at least one sort of fat bomb that you can just tutor up or have fall into your lap.

The big artifacts just decrease the consistency of your opening hands. You have no way of getting Titan from your hand should you draw it, to the board. I wouldn't argue with you should you decide to play it, but I think the greater consistency achieved by playing hard-castable cards is a better tradeoff.

- You really wouldn't even run ghost quarter as a one of? I don't see why not, especially when you're running multiple Crucibles. Everyone knocks it, and it's only ever been good for me in my Stax lists (as at least a 1-of).

If I were to run another land, it would be Bazaar. That would be my first option.

- As for chalice + weenies, I still think that's a problem. You mentioned Uba Stax casting chalice at 1; Uba stax didn't really mind losing welder to cut off spells because of what Uba Mask does. When I played Uba Mask I was more than happy to drop a chalice at 1 against any opponent, because I knew they were going to have more dead cards than I was.

Same analogy applies to the cards in this deck and the cards you're talking about.

- I'm going to disagree with your assessment on Uba Mask. Much like how you're chosing to run Mindcensor because "every deck runs tutors/fetches", every deck that you're attempting to hate/beat with this (combo, control, fish) draws cards.

Combo relies far more on tutors than card draw and control has already made the transition from control to combo. Sure fish draws, but mostly through Confidant which isn't affected by Uba. The only widely played cards that are affected by Uba are Bstorm and AR, both of which if you're worried about, Chalice for one can be dispatched at a far cheaper price.

- Maybe leylines in the board over crypts? You run enough colored sources plus tombs that you can hardcast it (albeit not easily).

I don't like Leyline as a card. If you rely on opening with a Leyline in your hand, you'll begin to make bad mulligans. Not to mention that if your opponent answers it with bounce or you don't draw it in your opening hand, putting it back onto the board is difficult.

The more I look at the list the more I feel it's a 4-5c Fish list. The workshops look out of place. If you lose the shamen and the crop rotate, you can cut the deck to a 3-color blue/black/white. This would then let you run stuff like Jotun grunt and Leyline as graveyard hate alongside CotV and N.Rod. I just really feel that this is a fish list that's evolved from an estranged body of a Stax list.

It does feel that way, because the clock is weenie based and not artifact based, am I not right? If you do cut it down to 3 colours as you suggest, it would just make chalice a very weak choice. Leyline is a bad choice as I explained above. Shamans are important, because they give you greater consistency in taking out your opponents artifact mana.

I have actually considered playing Grunt, to give a faster clock, but its ability to affect the Grave is a bit too slow for my liking. I will try it out though.

If it is a Fish/Stax Hybrid list, how is that a problem?

[yespuhyren]

This is my Mindcensor list at the moment:



// Lands
    3  Wasteland
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    6  Plains
    3  Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
    4  Juggernaut
    2  Jotun Grunt
    4  Aven Mindcensor
    4  Glowrider
    4  Solemn Simulacrum

// Spells
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Enlightened Tutor
    1  Balance
    1  Mox Emerald
    4  Null Rod
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    4  Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4  Ghostly Prison
SB: 4  Defense Grid
SB: 4 -OPEN SLOT-

Some possibilities:

Swords to Plowshares
Rule of Law
Orim's Chant
Hanna's Custody
Seal of Cleansing
Aura of Silence
Pithing Needle



This deck has 8 Spheres, 4 Null Rods, and 4 Chalice which can be set at one with the only losses being Enlightened Tutor.  4x Workshop, 3x Ancient Tomb, and 4x Solemn all help to get around the mana denial issues, and the deck also maintains a Crucible/Waste/Strip lock.  Mindcensor is just a beast.

[WhiteWolf]

@ yespuhyren: I really like that list. I used to toy around with Glowrider in my older 5-color Stax lists but in this deck (with this mana-base) he's much easier to cast. Two questions though:

- Do you think that with 6 basic plains maybe 2 of two them can be replaced by white-producing utility lands like Kjeldoran Outpost or Nomad Stadium? I agree this could turn out to be too clunky and win-more however.

- Don't you think you need some extra Stax-hate (main or side) or do you think 4 Juggernaut / 4 Solemn give enough advantage against other Stax decks? I expect Stax to make a resurgence with the new metagame shaping even more around combo. Maybe the last 4 slots in the side could be Seal of Cleansing. That way you have something that's good against Stax and Oath. Combo, Control and even aggro seem to be already enough taken care of between the main and the side. The one other thing I would maybe include are Swords to Plowshares to remove utility creatures.

I'm definitely going to test this thing. I really love monocolored Stax lists.

@ all: has anyone already considered Suppression Field in these white / semi-white Stax lists? It's a first turn play that disrupts Bazaar of Baghdad, fetchlands, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Goblin Charbelcher, Goblin Welder, ... In a build like yespuhyrens it only affects your own Wastelands.

[yespuhyren]

I had suppression fields in the deck last night they just didn't do THAT much that I really wanted them in.  I had 2 STP in as well but cut them to possible SB slot.  6 Plains is good because it helps solemn continue to fetch lands, and in a deck where you play 8 spheres/4 rods solemn mana is really nice.

EDIT: Grunt has been sucking so much.  I really like him sometimes and hate him other.  He is on watch to become 2x Suppression Field

[McBain]

What about taking the grunts out as well as 2 other cards (-1 jugg, -1 Null rod??) and run 4 confidant as well as a W/B mana base.

[yespuhyren]

Well I really think me and Bill Copes should have a talk cause he always seems to do so well with his B/W stax.  I just wish I knew 100% who he was on TMD/SCG so we could collaborate.  Bill if you do see this and want to work on a B/W Mindcensory deck with me then PM me and I'd be happy to work with you.

[madmanmike25]

Thoughts of this deck in the post FS meta anyone?

My current list:
//NAME: Untitled Deck
        4 City of Brass
        1 Bazaar of Baghdad
        3 Gorilla Shaman
        3 Dark Confidant
        2 In the Eye of Chaos
        4 Aven Mindcensor
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Ancient Tomb
        2 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Mana Crypt
        4 Chalice of the Void
        2 Tormod's Crypt
        1 Engineered Explosives
        3 Null Rod
        1 Trinisphere
        3 Crucible Of Worlds
        4 Wasteland
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Balance
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Crop Rotation
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Gemstone Mine

Well, you have a LOT of disruption, I almost want to ask what does your deck do besides that?  Hopefully your disruption can allow your very small creatures to get enough attack phases to win.

First off, you probably don't NEED all 4 Wastelands since you run DT, Vamp, Crop, and Seal that can easily find Stripmine.  I think you should try and up the ITEOC to 3 and see where that takes you.  Such a great hoser, really.

No Time Walk?  I didn't see if you had already said why you didn't include it, and I will most likely not be reading the other thread (busy).  Even if you do have a reason for cutting it, perhaps you should rethink it.

Consider adding a lone bounce spell as well.  I can see this deck having problems on the draw with a strong turn 1 play by your opponent.  You have the tutors for it.  Has EE proven better than E. Truth?

I'm not going to lie, the list seems pretty random but if it works, it works.

The hype that surrounded Belcher seems to have died down, but I still think it will be around. The Belcher matchup is really stupid when played out.

Depends on who you play against and who wins the coin toss.  I don't think there was that much hype over Belcher anyway.(judging by # of replies).

@Yespuhyren:  All I see is one tutor(Enlightened).  In a deck that only tries to delay an opponent this can prove fatal if you have bad topdecks.  Have you considered Bazaars for some filtering?  They work with Grunts as well.  Simulacrum seems insufficient for card draw.

[yespuhyren]

I've been thinking about adding Bazaars and doing the following:

-4 Solemn
-1 Enlightened Tutor

+3 Bazaar of Baghdad
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+1 Crucible of Worlds

[Vegeta2711]

I was asked to post up my current Mindcensor build here, so here's one of the main versions I've been working on.

// Disruption
        4 Smokestack
        4 Leyline of the Void
        3/4 Tangle Wire
        4 Crucible of Worlds
        4 Chalice of the Void
        3/4 Sphere of Resistance
// Creatures
        4 Gathan Raiders
        4 Aven Mindcensor
// Other
        3 Bazaar of Baghdad
        2 Engineered Explosives
// Mana
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Horizon Canopy
        1 Cabal Pit
        4 Scrubland
        2 Riftstone Portal
        3 Ancient Tomb
        3 Mishra's Workshop
        2 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine

Considering adding another land or so, but thus far the deck has worked pleasantly well. It needs to be refined though. ATM I prefer only 3 Spheres, butttt whatever. That goes back and forth with Tangle Wire a lot.

[yespuhyren]

Why Gathan Raiders?  Doesn't seem like its a great card to me.  3 colorless and a discarded card for a 3/3, possibly 5/5.  If this is meant to beat fish, wouldn't Razormane Masticore or something like that be better?

[Implacable]

It's a 3CC 5/5, almost no matter what.  Seems pretty strong.

[Vegeta2711]

Why Gathan Raiders?  Doesn't seem like its a great card to me.  3 colorless and a discarded card for a 3/3, possibly 5/5.  If this is meant to beat fish, wouldn't Razormane Masticore or something like that be better?

3cc card that beats fish into a pulp and is big enough to beat a finisher the rest of the time. That's pretty much it. The odds of having cards in hand after like turn 4 are close to zero in my experience, let alone if you've actually used Bazaar to cycle / abuse Crucible at all.

Razomane costs 5 and is an artifact, those are two pretty big strikes against using him. Especially when I don't know how many Shops will be left in the deck by the time it's done. 'sides, I much rather pay 3, get a creature that blocks everything but grunt and becomes bigger than anything Fish runs a little later in the game than risk not being able to even cast my man in time to save myself.

[Bill Copes]

Here's the list i've been fiddling with for the past month or so:

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

2 Engineered Explosives

4 Dark Confidant
3 Juggernaut
2 Aven Mindcencor
2 Jotun Grunt

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Balance
1 Darkblast
1 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal

4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

The sideboard is pretty open at the moment, but some definite slots are Leylines, Yixlid jailers, Null Rods and an extra Mindcensor.  Most of the cards have stayed the same from previous lists, because the overall strategy is still the same -- choke the mana supply while beating down with creatures larger than fish dudes (juggs, mainly).  The greatest challenge I've actually had with the current list is casting the Aven Mindcensors.  I originally had 3 main deck, but ended up cutting down to two because of the prohibitive mana cost under multiple 2spheres and main-decked null rods (the rods are now in the sideboard) .  I tried ancient tombs, but I really don't like the extra damage.  I'd rather take damage from confidants -- he hits back and draws you cards at least.  Other than that, everything else is pretty standard and effective.  I'm not sure if I like the hypothetical anti-synergy between chalice and Engineered Explosives, but since it has yet to be a problem, i'll probably keep things the way they are for now.

I really, really like the Riftstone Portals from Vegeta's list.  If I ever change things around to incorporate more bazaars, they will definitely be replacing Urborg, Tomb Of Make Your Opponents Fetch Lands Awesome.

Gathan Raiders will also have to be explored in the near future.

[BigBarn]

Do you have much trouble with Gathan Raiders and Chalice at zero?

[yespuhyren]

Here's a draft with blue in it that has to be tested.  Its an interesting concoction that will hopefully prove to work well.

// Lands
    1  Plains
    4  Tundra
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Island
    2  Flooded Strand
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4  Juggernaut
    4  Meddling Mage
    4  Aven Mindcensor
    3  Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
    4  Glowrider

// Spells
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Trinisphere
    3  Smokestack
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    4  Tangle Wire
    4  Sphere of Resistance