Rector Flash

[Implacable]

I think that the reason that Therapy is terrible is because of a basic part of Vintage that has been articulated many times on these forums: hand disruption becomes less powerful as the format becomes more so.  I'd prefer reactive control instead of proactive control in any deck except pure combo, because reactive control stops their play for the turn, where as proactive control weakens their play overall.  Time > Quality.  Essentially, what reactive control does is buy time.  If you nullify their play for a turn and win on yours, you don't care what they'd do on their next turn: winning > hurting the other guy.

[ZedLeppelin]

What are you smoking, man?

Therapy is a terrible card? You're out of your mind. I'll give you that there are better disruption options, proactively and reactively, but it is by no means a bad card.

And in this deck, it is excellent, because it is necessary for your plan B; hardcasting Rector and flashing back Therapy to kill him.

While this sort of discourse may be acceptable at some other Magic websites, here at The Mana Drain we believe in being civil even to those with whom we disagree. Verbal warning for abusive language. Please try to keep it polite in the future.

[Moxlotus]

Has the entire vintage community missed out on something the past 4 years or what?
Cabal therapy is not a bad card, its extremely good, especially coupled with duress

There is a reason Therapy hasn't been used in Vintage.  It is unacceptable to miss with a Therapy.  Extended doesn't have Force, which is what Vintage decks use instead.

...urh except that is HAS been used in vintage, and you shouldn't really miss all that often if you're halfway decent - And if you miss after a duress you have the worst short term memory ever.

Why is everyone thinking that hand-rape is irrelevant? I realize that brainstorm somewhat helps against discard effects, but not nearly enough to render them useless. (And i do realize that it's not "everyone", but i've seen quite a bit of comments about how discard effects are not good)

/Zeus

/Zeus

Besides in Ichorid, where has Therapy been used in large numbers?  As I said, there is a reason why Duress, Force, and Misdirection are used.  Hell, Hymn to tourach is used more than Therapy ignoring Ichorid.

And in this deck, it is excellent, because it is necessary for your plan B; hardcasting Rector and flashing back Therapy to kill him.

The point is you can cut Therapy for better disruption if you use Hulk instead of Rector.

[zeus-online]

Therapy was used in the old rector lists, in ichorid, suicide and probably in some weird fish deck.

The biggest problem with therapy in Type1 is the restrict list, but when you're going off with your combo, do you really care about any card that is not FoW?

/Zeus

[Harlequin]

My main question about Andy's Rector list is why he opted for the normal fetch based mana rather than a 5 color mana base.  It doesn't even appear to be so-much about the shuffle effects because he's only running 4 fetchlands.  He's running 4 fetchs, 3 basics, 4 duels.  Why not 4 City, 4 Gemstone, 3 Forbidden Orchard?  It seems like it would be worlds better with tinker/flash -> Titan.  The only card that would be negativly effect would be the 3 massacre in the board, and those could be pyroclasms (not to mention opening up the board to other red options).

The reason I like this deck (for T1) is because it can pick a win to fit the situation.  It seems like this deck could just as easily win through Turn 1 or 2 Tinker-> Titan against something like fish or TMWA.  It has many other ways to win cheap and early (the always skillful: Rit Rit Rit DT Will Rit Rit Rit Tendrils!)

Also Therapy is good.  And it seems that people are forgetting that current builds of TMWA are running it.  Sure it's arguably not as good as duress, but it's also agruably better.

Hulk combo seems to narrow.  A single Leyline of the Void or Mage nameing Tendrils, or Aven Mindcensor ... and the deck is set back for many turns.  This is type 1, so you can't ignore the fact that you very well may encounter turn 1 Mindcensor in response to summoners pact! 

Even today 1-2 Land Belcher is running ETW as an alternate win, becuase lets face it ... things don't always go according to plans. 

My last point is about pact of negations.  Has anyone else noticed in testing that if your opponent has 2 FOW then you actually straight loose the game next turn?  It seems like your rolling the dice alot in a deck that has no other win condition outside resolving 1 of 4 cards.

[T00L]

How good cabal therapy is is directly related to how good you are

[Kieranwolf]

How good cabal therapy is is directly related to how good you are

Totally wrong. I'm a wicked bad player and Cabal Therapy is like a double rocket launcher for me. XD

Seriously, Therapy and Duress are nearly equal if you know how to use Therapy. Duress isn't nearly as versatile, only nabs one card, and can't be replayed for zero mana. Duress is only considered better because it's easier to use. How is Therapy not the optimal choice for a combo deck, especially if it's an actual combo enabler if it needs to be?

Given that, I think that FoW is just as good when you are planning on winning the game during your turn or nuking your opponent's topdeck.

Note that Brassman's list had both, and not much more. Duress was in the side, but I don't know if he ever needed it during the tournament.

[twault]

A long time ago in a format known as "Type 1".....

Rector-Trix was the deck to play. Academy Rector was so abusive that some players complained that it should be restricted. However, decks got faster, metagames shifted, and poor Academy Rector was regulated to trade binders.

I'm glad to see that Rector may be a viable card again.

Therapy may not be the best disruption card available, but it can get the job done. Basically, you just don't want to get FOW'd or MisD while building your storm. I mean, what other cards do you fear when you are trying to combo-off?

I don't know what the long term viability of this deck will be, but I hope it manages to linger for a while.

[ZedLeppelin]

The point is you can cut Therapy for better disruption if you use Hulk instead of Rector.

Sure. Then you can cut out all of your 'better disruption' for the other 11 cards you need for the Hulk combo (Discp and articfact creatures, I'm looking at you).

[Moxlotus]

The point is you can cut Therapy for better disruption if you use Hulk instead of Rector.

Sure. Then you can cut out all of your 'better disruption' for the other 11 cards you need for the Hulk combo (Discp and articfact creatures, I'm looking at you).

No, you cut a bunch of mana sources that you don't need for the crap Hulk combo needs

Rector:  inferior disruption, needs a lot more mana sources.  Gets to play with more broken cards so it has a Plan B if counters/discard are thrown at you.  Hate that hurts include Leyline, Planar Void, Crypt, Needle.
Hulk: superior disruption, replaces unneeded mana sources with crap for the combo.  Doesn't get to play with as many broken cards in case Plan A fails due to counters/discard . Only hate that hurts is Leyline.

[orgcandman]

Rector:  inferior disruption, needs a lot more mana sources.  Gets to play with more broken cards so it has a Plan B if counters/discard are thrown at you.  Hate that hurts include Leyline, Planar Void, Crypt, Needle.
Hulk: superior disruption, replaces unneeded mana sources with crap for the combo.  Doesn't get to play with as many broken cards in case Plan A fails due to counters/discard . Only hate that hurts is Leyline.

Unless I'm mistaken, Planar Void doesn't stop the rector flash (APNAP rule means you just go at their EOT) and Needle will hurt Hulk just as much as it will hurt rector decks...only rector decks can find other enchantments such as null profusion, form of the dragon, and hell even ivory mask to stop tendrils wins.

Not only does the rector give you more deck building options, but the hulk version can lose to its own awful opening hands much more often than the rector version, due to the amount of dead cards it runs. Rector has the 4 flash, and whatever uncastable enchantments you're running (between 2 and 4). Hulk has 4 protean hulk, 4 ornithopter/shield sphere/whatever else, and the 4 flash.

Therapy, last I checked, is amazing at 2 things: Getting creatures in the yard, and hitting cards which will cause you to lose. It does this for 1 mana. Saying that C.T. is bad disruption is a bunch of malarkey.

[Moxlotus]

Needle does nothing to stop Disciple+artifact dudes.

Rector has the 4 flash, and whatever uncastable enchantments you're running (between 2 and 4). Hulk has 4 protean hulk, 4 ornithopter/shield sphere/whatever else, and the 4 flash.
 

As I said before, the Hulk deck has all the extra slots because it can cut a bunch of mana that it doesn't need.  I agree that it will draw more dead cards--but it can afford to because it doens't need to have all the mana acceleration.

Therapy, last I checked, is amazing at 2 things: Getting creatures in the yard, and hitting cards which will cause you to lose. It does this for 1 mana. Saying that C.T. is bad disruption is a bunch of malarkey.

But if you don't use Rector, you don't need to get creatures into the yard.  Force and Duress are better at hitting cards that would cause you to lose.  MisD and Pact are much better at protecting your win than Therapy.  It's not that Therapy is bad--its that there are a lot of better options that exist.  If you start building the deck using the best disruption available Therapy is not on that list.

[orgcandman]

Needle does nothing to stop Disciple+artifact dudes.

Uhh...needle reduces your artifact dudes to utter trash, and your disciples to mere 1/1 beaters with an irrelevant ability. Needling a ravager makes the hulk deck unable to win without an alternate means of killing artifacts.

But if you don't use Rector, you don't need to get creatures into the yard.  Force and Duress are better at hitting cards that would cause you to lose.  MisD and Pact are much better at protecting your win than Therapy.  It's not that Therapy is bad--its that there are a lot of better options that exist.  If you start building the deck using the best disruption available Therapy is not on that list.

That may be true, but I'd rather start my deck building by making it resiliant and consistent. While brokenness beats consistency, consistency beats inconsistency. Reducing the amount of inconsistency is an important step in deck building. Rector-based decks improve the consistency because the amount of dead cards in the deck is much less. While you bring up the point that the hulk version can simply cut irrelevant mana sources to fit in its dead cards, that doesn't adequately address the fact that the percentage of cards that you want to see in your opening hand has gone down. What does an ornithopter do when you drop it in hulk if you're not set to win? Block an EtW token? What about disciple? Same? Maybe it will beat down a little, but it doesn't cause your opponent to alter their gameplan in any way.

Look at what rector will do: Block EtW tokens to get the win. He acts as a pretty decent moat against 6 etw tokens. He's something your opponent fears, because now, that massacre looks like a bad idea....that bloodfire dwarf might be a little awful.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that one way is strictly superior vs. another, but merely expressing concerns I have with arguments for/against certain strategies.

[Moxlotus]

Uhh...needle reduces your artifact dudes to utter trash, and your disciples to mere 1/1 beaters with an irrelevant ability. Needling a ravager makes the hulk deck unable to win without an alternate means of killing artifacts.
 

What are you talking about?  Have you tested, or even looked at a Hulk deck?  The deck uses Shifting Wall and Phyrexian Marauder.

Look at what rector will do: Block EtW tokens to get the win. He acts as a pretty decent moat against 6 etw tokens. He's something your opponent fears, because now, that massacre looks like a bad idea....that bloodfire dwarf might be a little awful.

Again, huh?  How does rector stop ETW tokens from attacking.  Rector is a 1/2.  Goblin tokens don't have the power of 2.

Have you played or played against either deck at all?

[defector]

This could be a great deck. This deck is a lot like the old dragon lists except that it has more efficient land drops. The argument about Duress vs Cabal Therapy is unguided. If you have a Rector out, you know what to therapy for, if you don't, you still know what to therapy for. You are always therapying for Rectors Bargain, how you protect this in a pure combo deck isn't that hard. There are only a few cards in the game that can hurt you depending on what stage of your game plan you are in. Against the more redundant decks out there, its even more likely to hit. Flash sews up a big seam in the original list problems. This could be a lot of fun to play as well. The mana base looks good, always use fetches though. This is a two color deck with white splashed. Fecthes are great becuase of two reasons. They easily fill in the the white, you only need one white. Also, fetches thin at the same life cost that bargain draws, thinning is really important in this deck as it could happily go off out of 45 rather than 60 cards. Balance was actually too slow for the original Rector/Trix list, there is no reason to run it now.

[Methuselahn]

It's not that Therapy is bad--its that there are a lot of better options that exist.  If you start building the deck using the best disruption available Therapy is not on that list.

Without lists and/or results, it's pretty hard to argue which card is best here.  In a vacuum where you don't have to consider synergy, Therapy may not rank the highest.  But who builds a deck like that?  Therapy may very well be the best disruption available simply because it comboes out your Rector.  In fact, in all the testing I've done with Rector (which has been a ton)  I've found that you rarely name anything but Force blindly.  And for good reason.

As far as needing mana, some of my own lists run Misdirections over Rituals and the mana is quite light.  Using extra Forces and then MisD is a great way to build storm when you're ready to go off while providing protections against the field when you're not.  Really, if you can Flash out a Rector and fetch Bargain, you can literally just fill your hand and stop your opponent from doing anything anyway.  This is akin to Bomberman comboing out and then passing the turn with a full grip of counters. 

One of the ways I've been avoiding Dark Ritual, which I personally think is the weakest card in the deck, is by running Form of the Dragon maindeck with the Misdirection plan.  After fetching out bargain, the deck is much more likely to find and resolve another flash/Rector for FotD than to tendrils for 20.  Yea, Toa for 20 is generally better, but 5 to the dome each turn with Bargain as back-up is a virtual instant-win.  You don't get to produce a huge amount of mana to storm out, but you draw enough cards with Bargain that using the untap step is sufficient.   Also about Dragon, the whole moat thing is nice vs ichorid game 1.  Another bonus to Dragon and Bargain is being able to draw 4 cards on each player's turn.   This is but one way to go about making rector-flash.  It has the benefit of running more Disruption at the expense of being able to Tendrils out the turn you play Bargain.

[Whatever Works]

The 11 Dead cards of "mana sources" is just a redicules concept to me. 25 mana sources compared to 15 in a different version doesnt mean less efficiency as much as it means stability. IF a deck like Meandeck gifts could play at 15 total mana sources counting moxes and function it would, but it cant so it doesnt. Nobody says that meandeck tendrils is better b/c it has fewer mana slots, because it isnt efficient.

Cabal Therapy is an amazing card. Idk if it is needed in Rector Flash, but when I saw Andy run it... wow it was very very good...

Also, most of my earlier analysis was made under the assumption that TS was not legal. In which case I think both decks will both be hurt by the emmergence of 100x more graveyard hate in all sideboards, b/c of Ichorid becoming more viable.

[Spacebalzz]

Since no one has posted a list for a Hulk-Flash version of this deck, I figure I'll post what I've been testing and some conclusions I've come to.  In my play group, the deck has had alright results pre-board (I haven't really figured out a SB yet), with lots of T2 and T3 kills-- most of which had protection.  I'll post the decklist divided by color and will address card selections below.  Without further ado, the list:

-The Hulkster-

// Blue (20)
        4 Force of Will
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Flash
        3 Merchant Scroll
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Chain of Vapor
        1 Time Walk
        1 Simic Guildmage
// Black (9)
        4 Disciple of the Vault
        3 Duress or 3 Pact of Negation
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
// Green (9)
        4 Summoner's Pact
        3 Protean Hulk
        2 Elvish Spirit Guide
// Artifacts (10)
        3 Phyrexian Marauder
        3 Shifting Wall
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Sapphire
// Land
        4 Polluted Delta
        3 Flooded Strand
        3 Underground Sea
        2 Island

-The Combo-

4 Disciple
3 Marauder
3 Wall

I figure most of you will argue that 10 creatures is too few for the disciple kill, but I think after piloting the deck you'd be surprised.  Remember, when going off, its of more importance to have the disciples in your library as opposed to the X creatures, and with the combination of Brainstorms and Fetchs (a wopping 7), this is an easy task.  In many games I actually played the winning artifact from my hand after the fact.

-Duress V. Pact of Negation-
I'm not completely sold on Pact of Negation.  When replacing them for Duress's, I found them sub-optimal.  The only high-point of Pact is that its tutorable by Merchant Scroll, but again, I found myself doing this rarely.  On the other hand, I found Duress somewhat less than optimal during testing, so Pact may be the better choice.

-Chain of Vapor rules. Period.

-Brainstorm-
With FOW, this is an auto-include, not to mention its the best non-restricted drawspell in Vintage.  Packed with 7 fetches, you can almost always get the Disciples back to the library.

-Time Walk-
I'm not really sure about this one.  Sometimes I end up wishing it was Lat-Nam's Legacy; however, it is an T1 bomb with Land + ESG.

-Summoner's Pact-
Absolutely amazing.  This card almost always gets you exactly what you need.  It lets you run less Hulks (you could probably go to 2), and it fetches ESG for that 1 colorless mana in Flash's cost.

-Simic Guidemage-
A little bit of Trechiness (Trickiness and Techiness), this man allows you to SP up a blue card to pitch to Force, and is even playable from your hand.  Ironically, this dude came in mad handy during testing.

Anyway, I'll try to reply to posts tommorrow when I get off work.  Enjoy.

-Matt

[vartemis]

Since no one has posted a list ...

That is a totally different deck.  This thread is for talking about a deck based around flash and rector.  Feel free to start a new thread, or add to one if it already exists, about hulk flash in type 1.  What would be interesting is if you found a way to combine the two. Hulk could fetch out rector and carrion feeder, along with another utility creature.

Cheers,

j

[orgcandman]

Uhh...needle reduces your artifact dudes to utter trash, and your disciples to mere 1/1 beaters with an irrelevant ability. Needling a ravager makes the hulk deck unable to win without an alternate means of killing artifacts.
 

What are you talking about?  Have you tested, or even looked at a Hulk deck?  The deck uses Shifting Wall and Phyrexian Marauder.

It would help to know what version you were talking about then. I assumed you were talking about the version running Arcbound Ravager and 0cc creatures. Regardless, I'm still not fond of a deck that can't do anything with the Xcc creatures it draws except hold onto them, and nothing in your posts has done anything to convince me otherwise.

Look at what rector will do: Block EtW tokens to get the win. He acts as a pretty decent moat against 6 etw tokens. He's something your opponent fears, because now, that massacre looks like a bad idea....that bloodfire dwarf might be a little awful.

Again, huh?  How does rector stop ETW tokens from attacking.  Rector is a 1/2.  Goblin tokens don't have the power of 2.

Yeah, my bad. I thought he was a 1/1.

Anyway, the point I was trying to get at isn't that one version wins better than another. They both win just as well. The concerns I have are directly related to how resiliant & consistent A vs. B happen to be. I haven't tested the protean hulk version as of yet, but just going on paper observation I already have concerns that its a much more inconsistent deck, and much less resiliant to hate which DOES beat the combo because the way it wins is narrow (HAS to have 4 disciple + Xcc artifact creatures, or beat down with disciples). The rector version could still win without rector. Hell, it could win without bargain even. The deck, on paper, has many more paths to victory. Whether that plays out as meaning more / less consistency, there's one thing for sure and that is that on paper, the rector version looks better.

But hey, prove me wrong. Win an event with the hulk version, and I'll shut my e-mouth about it.

[Nehptis]

On the positive side it's always good to see T1 diversified by new decks.  I think it will be fun to see some Rector / Hulk Flash decks at tourneys.

Now for a reality check.

1) Rector Flash: Storm based combo is defined by Gifts and GLong (inclusive of the numerous variants of both, Pitch Long, BPS, etc.).  Any new storm deck needs to compare itself to those and ask, am I better, faster, more consistent, equally or less resilient to hate?  In my opinion Rector Flash is not as consistently powerful as Gifts, nor is it as fast as GLong.  In addition, Rector Flash is much easier to hate then traditional storm decks.

2) Hulk Flash:  Although not storm based, a lot of the same analysis should go into choosing this deck above proven combo.  But, my biggest criticism of this deck is that it feels like those Kobold / Cloudstone Curio decks of old.  That old idea was innovative.  But, in the end there was just too much fluff in the deck that could not be avoided.  Hulk Flash has the same problem.  It needs so many pieces to work that they inevitably clog up the game play.

3) Both Decks: A problem that both decks share is that they are easily hated out.  If they begin to show up in large numbers then direct hate is very simple to come by.  However, even if opponents do not plan for them there is still enough "collateral damage" hate out there in the form of Leylines, Needles, STPs, etc., that makes both decks very difficult to pilot to Top 8 wins.

4) Evolution: If the Flash decks were to evolve into "all-in" decks and were to lose their control pieces, I think that they would have to compete with Ichorid.  And with the new FUT pieces in Ichorid, it and Belcher are by far the most competitive "all-in" decks that one can play.

But, by all means Flash players please prove me wrong.  It truly is getting a bit tedious sitting across from most of my opponents and watching them all pilot Gifts, or GLong or Fish.  For the record, I'm currently playing Angel Oath.  Which incidentally shares some of the same criticisms as 2) Hulk Flash above.

[madmanmike25]

"Rector Flash" sounds like a faster version of Preparation H...

I wonder if a 2/2 split of Mana Drain and Flash is possible since Flash is useless without Rector?  I realize you still need to kill her after casting her, but it's a thought.  I don't doubt there are times when she will be hard-casted off Rituals in a pinch.... it might make you up the Therapy count to 4 though.

It does seem that this deck is more resilient than some of the Hulk decks though.  Tinker->Titan is not a horrible back up plan, and it seems this deck runs fewer 'dead' cards.

[Kholdestare]

To me it seems choosing one deck over the other is deciding between versatility (Rector-Therapy builds) and explosiveness (Hulk-Summoning Pact builds). I've tinkered with the more traditional approach of Rector builds but wasn't finding Rector or Therapy in time. I thought about replacing Summoner's Pact with Oath of Druids, which would help me find Academy Rector. My testing so far (only goldfishing) was going quite well. Maybe this could be a solution for the versatility/explosiveness trade off problem. Here's a list without sideboard.

Combo (16)

4x Academy Rector
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Flash
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Illusions of Grandeur
1x Donate
1x Krosan Reclamation

Tutoring (15)

4x Oath of Druids
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Brainstorm
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Imperial Seal

Disruption (5) (other than Cabal Therapy)

4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection

Misc (4)

1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Chain of Vapor

Mana (20)

5x Moxen
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
1x Chrome Mox

4x Forbidden Orchard
3x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

I'm using Illusions/Donate so I can cut Rituals from the mb. I found them quite underwhelming since there was not enough card drawing to go for the traditional Tendrils kill. Most of the time it goes down to flashing in a second Rector that finds Illusions. From there it's nearly impossible to fail.
The only (minor) problem I faced so far was being a little light on mana sometimes.
This build makes it possible to run a transformational sideboard. Swinging with angels in game 2/3 may be a decent way to fight graveyard hate. I'm not sure if this is the way to go but the performance of this build was quite promising to me so far.

Just some thoughts on this subject...

[Purple Hat]

future sight is an option for the second rector target if you're playing rector-->tendrils.  it's actually not a bad way to go since you play so many mana sources and shuffle effects.  it's probably the next best thing to bargain but it is way more prone to stalling.  I played rector tendrils without flash in some local events before the eratta and I also found that if you include timetwister and possibly mind's desire or jar you can frequently just storm out in the face of graveyard hate.

hale

[Implacable]

How good cabal therapy is is directly related to how good you are

Totally wrong. I'm a wicked bad player and Cabal Therapy is like a double rocket launcher for me. XD

Seriously, Therapy and Duress are nearly equal if you know how to use Therapy. Duress isn't nearly as versatile, only nabs one card, and can't be replayed for zero mana. Duress is only considered better because it's easier to use. How is Therapy not the optimal choice for a combo deck, especially if it's an actual combo enabler if it needs to be?

Given that, I think that FoW is just as good when you are planning on winning the game during your turn or nuking your opponent's topdeck.

Note that Brassman's list had both, and not much more. Duress was in the side, but I don't know if he ever needed it during the tournament.

This is my problem with Therapy.

Duress is a better card than Therapy, because it removes the bombs from their hand instead of the 4-ofs, and it never misses.

Force is better than Therapy, because it is a huge tempo swing (unlike Therapy) and answers everything and anything (unlike Therapy).

Misdirection is usually better in Therapy: Misdirection is better in decks that play better cards, and thus wish to be aggressive.

Mana Drain is better than Therapy, because it answers a threat and gives you mana (how stupid!)

Now, with that said, I am therefore uncomfortable playing an inferior piece of disruption in order to add an extra layer of mediocre redundancy to my combo.  I want to execute my gameplan, not rely on resolving a 4-mana, clunky monster.  2003 was 2003, and now is now.  They are different formats, and one is much, much faster and more powerful.  Therapy doesn't have any place in decks that can't abuse it.

[Purple Hat]

define "can't abuse it"

I'd say getting bargain is pretty damn abusive

[Methuselahn]

future sight is an option for the second rector target if you're playing rector-->tendrils.  it's actually not a bad way to go since you play so many mana sources and shuffle effects.  it's probably the next best thing to bargain but it is way more prone to stalling.  I played rector tendrils without flash in some local events before the eratta and I also found that if you include timetwister and possibly mind's desire or jar you can frequently just storm out in the face of graveyard hate.

hale

All of this is true of pre-Flash Rector decks.

From my experience, adding Flash to the deck decreases your need to play Dark Rituals.  Afterall, the role it played in getting Rector on the table has been replaced by Flash itself.  This requires a change.  Now, I don't have an optimized list to share, but I can tell you that storming out is harder now (you now have Flash in your deck) but getting Bargain into play may be easier.   

I believe no matter how you win, getting Bargain on the table will get you there.

[BreathWeapon]

The 11 Dead cards of "mana sources" is just a redicules concept to me. 25 mana sources compared to 15 in a different version doesnt mean less efficiency as much as it means stability. IF a deck like Meandeck gifts could play at 15 total mana sources counting moxes and function it would, but it cant so it doesnt. Nobody says that meandeck tendrils is better b/c it has fewer mana slots, because it isnt efficient.

Cabal Therapy is an amazing card. Idk if it is needed in Rector Flash, but when I saw Andy run it... wow it was very very good...

Also, most of my earlier analysis was made under the assumption that TS was not legal. In which case I think both decks will both be hurt by the emmergence of 100x more graveyard hate in all sideboards, b/c of Ichorid becoming more viable.

It isn't ridiculous, because the mana sources aren't needed for Flash, and hard casting Rector is a plan B. Gifts didn't add additional mana sources and rituals just to be able to hard cast Darksteel Colossus and build storm for Empty the Warrens etc. People are just building Rector and adding Flash as additional pseudo-mana sources than building Flash, which just seems pointless, because Rector even with Flash added in is still awful.

[demonic effect]

The 11 Dead cards of "mana sources" is just a redicules concept to me. 25 mana sources compared to 15 in a different version doesnt mean less efficiency as much as it means stability. IF a deck like Meandeck gifts could play at 15 total mana sources counting moxes and function it would, but it cant so it doesnt. Nobody says that meandeck tendrils is better b/c it has fewer mana slots, because it isnt efficient.

There is a huge misconception built around this line of thinking... Namely, that a flash deck and meandeck gifts has a similar gameplan...  In reality, every deck requires more mana sources to utilize their combo than a flash deck for two reasons.  First, flash only needs 2 mana for the combo (similar to Oath).  Second, other combo decks usually attempt to play a lot of acceleration/spells before they play a yawgmoth's will to maximize its effect for a lethal tendril's...  Flash rector does not need to do this because of bargain...  I will delve into this more later on in this post

The second huge misconception is that the deck will be hit hard by graveyard hate inspired by Ichorid. 
      1.  There are different flash lists that have differing requirements of the graveyard...  All flash decks require that the creature go to the graveyard, but the deck should be able to find a bounce spell to bounce the "hate" before going off...
      2.  Some Flash rector decks can still combo off normally w/o rector.

The third misconception is revolving around therapy...  I am not saying that therapy is the best disruption spell out there. However, that does not mean it is not the right card for the deck.  Therapy is considered to be amazing in Ichorid because of the synergies that exist.  A cards overall value is increased if the card is able to perform two key functions at once... in this case, it serves as A. information to see if the combo can work and mild disruption B. Major disruption as it is used from GY and C. A means to get bargain into play via rector.  Since there are only a handful of cards that you should truly be worried about as the rector player, therapying a player blind still is useful as you can still call FoW, StP, etc...  and, if you missed the first time, and realize they have a "disenchant" in their hand... then when you sacrifice rector, you call "disenchant" and protect bargain.  This is not to say that therapy is the best card... This is only meant to empahsize that people are  trying to compare therapy to other cards like FoW and duress which do not take into account the way the cards interact with the deck.

The final misconception is about Hulk...  there are two type of Flash - Hulk decks that currently exist.  The first one uses hulk to get artifcat creatures/disciple and win...  The second one uses hulk to get rector/korlis/centaur.  Since this is a rector thread, i'm going to now compare hulk-rector to flash-rector...

Hulk-rector vs. Flash-rector Pros:
     1.  Faster (more 0cc spells)
     2.  Easier to find the creature (pact)
     3.  Draw more cards off bargain
     4.  Less reliant on the graveyard (yawg will is less important)
     5.  more slots open for disruption (requires less mana because you draw more cards with bargain, can pact for ESG etc...)

Hulk-rector vs. Flash-rector cons:
     1.  Less resilient (fewer win options)
     2.  Can randomly lose (if you don't win this turn you lose because of pact)
     3.  Weaker draw engine
     4.  Less versatile tutors

In effect, the difference between the two decks is speed vs. resiliency.  This is not to say that Hulk-rector is worse as I feel that the trade-offs are pretty legitimate.  For example, Hulk-rector can still use tinker->titan as an alternate win or flash->titan etc...  The only difference is that Hulk-Rector can't hardcast rector (making therapy useless) and replaces those slots with more cards to find hulk.  This inherently speeds up the deck, but also makes it more vulnerable since pact is a scarry card to not resolve.  Additionally, the Hulk version uses Korlis which allows the player to draw the entire deck making the deck dynamics a little different.

For me, I prefer the Hulk version.  I feel that trying to combo out w/o rector or flash is silly.  Other combo decks are more suited to comboing out w/o bargain than this deck is meaning that this deck stalls a lot more.  In terms of hardcasting rector, while it does provide a nice alternative, it was considered too slow back in the day and is probably still that way now.  Obviously options are a good thing, and not every game plays out like it should on paper... but that just means to me that we should look for innovation rather than relying upon traditional modes of thought.

In conclusion, I have been working on a Flash Hulk-rector deck for a while now and will try to fine-tune it and post the list with a full comparison between this deck, traditional flash-rector, and other combo as soon as I can

[Kholdestare]

First, flash only needs 2 mana for the combo (similar to Oath)

The only difference is that Hulk-Rector can't hardcast rector (making therapy useless) and replaces those slots with more cards to find hulk.  This inherently speeds up the deck, but also makes it more vulnerable since pact is a scarry card to not resolve.

Oath of Druids is much safer then Pact... Oath is an engine in itself since it finds Rector and Theapy most of the time. Playing Oath makes it possible to minimize risk (not drawing Rector), while it maximizes the probability to combo out (as Pact does, but a turn slower). In addition to that a build with Oath opens up the opportunity to hardcast rector.