Rector Flash

[Smmenen]

Now that I am once again a full member of the Mana Drain, I had initially committed to writing a thoughtful post on the ways in magic as a hobby and pastime can be nicely integrated into a busy adult life schedule.    However, I thought you’d find some thoughts on Rector more interesting.   And since no one has started a thread exclusively devoted to a Rector-Flash deck, I thought that this would be a good opportunity to start one.   

Some background: Rector was one of the original combos with Flash back when Flash was first printed and before Flash’s initial errata.   In 2003, Rector made a huge return to the Vintage metagame with the printing of Cabal Therapy.   It provided a synergistic way to disrupt your opponent and trigger Rector.   The deck was incredibly potent and for a time joined GroAtog and Stax as the top three decks in Vintage.    The rise of slower Psychatog and the increasing incidence of cards like Coffin Purge put a halt to those plans (it was consistently found with Cunning Wish).    Note that Purge can be used to remove the Academy Rector before the trigger in the graveyard resolves.   If Rector is not in the GY to remove itself from game, then you can’t find an enchantment.   Purge was so good because it Duress proof so to speak.   

The re-errata of Flash to remove the power level errata once again opens the door to Rector in Vintage. 
Andy Probasco, ever the innovator, has already led the way:

Andy Probasco – Rector? I Barely Know Her

4   Polluted delta
2   Swamp
1   Island
3   Underground sea
1   Tundra
1   Tolarian Academy
1   Sol Ring
1   Lotus Petal
4   Dark Ritual
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Ruby
1   Black Lotus
1   Chrome Mox
   
4   Academy Rector
1   Sundering Titan
1   Null Profusion
1   Yawgmoth's Bargain
1   Tendrils of Agony
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Chain of Vapor
1   Hurkly's Recall
3   Cabal Therapy
3   Merchant Scroll
4   Force of Will
4   Brainstorm
1   Tinker
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Time Walk
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Demonic Tutor
3   Flash
1   Mystical Tutor
   
   SIDEBOARD
1   Hurkly's Recall
4   Leyline of the Void
1   Rebuild
1   Form of the Dragon
3   Massacre
3   Duress
1   The Abyss
1   Seal of Cleansing

Now, I have to complement Andy  because he not only had the balls to run a Flash list already, but he also came up with some interesting enchantments to complement the Bargain, such as Null Profusion and interesting cards to complement Flash, such as Sundering Titan.   

Merchant Scroll clearly is a decent Flash Tutor.  Andy has decided to run both the Ritual suite and plenty of Flash.   In his list, Flash is merely one card of many that can be used with Rector to find Bargain.   He has the resources to just power out Rector the manual way with Dark Ritual.   In short, Andy has packed in synergies so that there are plenty of potential combos.   

That said Flash + Rector is, in essence (if not reality) a two card combo that just wins the game for two mana.  I remember Andy once explained that he used Flame Fusilade and Time Vault in his Gifts list becuase it was the cheapest two card "I Win" combo in magic.    This is faster (i.e. cheaper) by a very large margin.  In fact, it may be the cheapest two card combo ever legal in Vintage.  One of the reasons that Flash is so powerful is because it is the best card type in magic: a blue instant (with the exception, maybe, of zero cc artifacts).   You can time it to win when your opponent is most vulnerable.   

Andy has settled on one list, and we can build from it.   This is not the only way to build Rector-Flash, but it is one of the most promising.   Two major questions remain, that I’ll leave for people in this thread to consider: 

1) Should Andy’s list incorporate Pact of Negation when Future Sight becomes legal?    The printing of Pact of Negation would seem to provide a perfect counterspell to protect the combo.    Pact of Negation is most powerful in combo decks that operate and produce a dominate combo at a single, particular juncture.   Combo decks that win in increments or lead up to a single, massive Yawg Will like the Long variants are less welcoming homes for Pact of Negation.    If this deck should have Pact, where should it go?


2) What other ways are there to build Rector Flash that we should consider?   

[zeus-online]

Considerations:
Is null profussion really necessary? And if it is, wouldn't necropotence be better (Simple because ritual, necropotence is a really strong play)
Should the 4th flash be included?
Is balance worth considering? It is a really powerfull card that can swing games - Yet it's not really important to the combo itself, and for that purpose it might just get in the way.

I really do not think pact will be better then fow, duress or therapy in this deck, a short list of what pact does and does not:
1) Pact protects the turn one flash/rector -> bargain - > win alot better then any of the other disruption spells.
2) Pact cannot be used to get rid of the rector like therapy can, so cutting therapy is out of the question.
3) Pact is really bad at disrupting other combo decks, and running with pure speed in Type 1 is not a strategy i'd advise for - Other then that Duress provides information which in turn can be used to make better cabal therapies...or simply planning ahead.
4) Cutting force of will is obv. out of the question - But merchant scroll is a whole other thing, the problem here becomes the fact that scroll is as much business as potential disruption (Although one could make an argument for including 1 pact for the sole purpose of scroll'ing it up pre-combo)

Cutting any business card for even more disruption might turn out to be a really bad idea.

Should rector flash become a drain deck? I know it seems counterintuitive, but draining out a rector and then using therapy is pretty strong, aswell as the potential turn 1 kill that flash and rector represents.

/Zeus

Pre edit: I realize that i've already said most of this in the tourney forum.

[Ged]

Smmenen, shouldn't we first establish if rector is actually right for flash deck(s)? Protean hulk is already making waves in legacy, it seems like it could find home in Vintage as well (especially post FS).

[desolutionist]

The problem is that Flash and Academy Rector aren't functional with themselves or any other card in the deck; they are only not useless when you can couple one of the pieces with the respected counterpart.  Isn't this problem parallel to the Ritual investment problem that Long has, but more extreme?  Openings of Flash and Rector are nice, but do they occur often enough that openings of double Flash, double Rector, and hands with neither piece can reasonably be discounted?  I don't think so.  T00L also played a carbon copy of Brassman's list at this same event and did poorly and I hypothesize that it was because of the inherent inconsistency of this strategy.

This deck seems fine for skillless players, who can only maximize their chance at winning by getting lucky, but successful players usually prefer to maximize that chance through skill.  Rector Flash doesn't offer a lot of opportunities to outplay the opponent and has too many likely dead hands and unlucky draws to be attractive enough to put down something like Gifts. 

[Sextiger]

Pact doesn't seem that great in flash combo unless your running the Protean Hulk versions because you can Pact at any time and then just flash in response to the pact trigger.


Running Rector in a Drain build could be interesting but it would be far slower and you would be opening yourselves up to far more hate.  Allowing them to find an answer such as Extirpate could cost you the game. 

[Smmenen]

Smmenen, shouldn't we first establish if rector is actually right for flash deck(s)? Protean hulk is already making waves in legacy, it seems like it could find home in Vintage as well (especially post FS).

no no no.   The fact that you asked this question suggests or at least reflects a lack of familiarity with Rector and even of the Hulk combo.

Same with this quote:

The problem is that Flash and Academy Rector aren't functional with themselves or any other card in the deck; they are only not useless

That's ok, I'll explain.

Hulk is awful in Vintage.    The reason is simple: The Hulk combo requires at least 3 creatures and up to 11 (if you use Disciple + X creatures).  Rector requires just 1 other enchantment commonly found in Vintage combo: Bargain.

Bargain immediately wins the game (or at least in the next mainphase).   Moreover, as I remarked in my opening commentary, Rector is great by itself (desolutionist, you missed this somehow).  Once you find the Cabal Therapy, you flash back Therapy saccing Rector and get Bargain.   

Furthermore, the components that win with Bargain are the cards you naturally include in Vintage combo: Rituals and Tendrils, etc. 

Pact doesn't seem that great in flash combo unless your running the Protean Hulk versions because you can Pact at any time and then just flash in response to the pact trigger.

Why is that?  That doesn't make any sense.   Flash puts rector into play and kills it.  You use the Pact to protect Flash.  The Rector finds Bargain and you win the game immediately.   

There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding how Rector operates.

I'm wondering if this is the case - but is this an instance in which metagame memory is just too short?   How many of you were playing Vintage in 2003 when Rector was huge? 

Let me see if I can find the rectal agaony articles:

First of all, check out this thread: at the 2003 Vintage Champs, people argued that Rector should be restricted:  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5010e76aa6a0eb3cef8729bdfb5441a1&topic=11547.30

Here is a more modern version of the deck: http://thevintagedatabase.tripod.com/id19.html

Here is the quintessential list from 2003:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=293df4c462c02a469969b857b08aa514&topic=13507;prev_next=next

Finally, an article I wrote that discusses the deck at length: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/5636.html

[Sextiger]

I was referring to using Pact to stop your opponent from resolving his spells.  Sorry for not going into more detail.  If your opponent drops a chalice for 2 or something else that will ruin on your day on his turn, and you don't have flash mana open, you could counter with Pact and then just flash on upkeep.

One of the big problems I have with the Rector-Bargain-Combo play is that you run a lot of cards that are terrible while going off (Cabal Therapy, Merchant Scroll, Flash, Rector) and its very possible to simply not find the cards you need, especially if your low on life. 

[Webster]

T00L also played a carbon copy of Brassman's list at this same event and did poorly and I hypothesize that it was because of the inherent inconsistency of this strategy.

The Flash deck seems very scary but I question its consistency.  One person couldn't win a game with it while the other one didn't lose a game until top 4, and both are very close in skill level.  So I really don't know how that 'thing' will hold up in the long run, but I'm curious.

I don't want to make any claims as to the consistency of the deck, as it's still pretty young to the format, but Stefan's two match losses were user error.  While normally a tight gifts player, Stefan made some small combo mistakes that turned at least one guarenteed match win into a loss, making his results not 100% accurate for measuring deck power.  (In all fairness, *my* results were probably a little on the lucky side).

The problem is that Flash and Academy Rector aren't functional with themselves or any other card in the deck; they are only not useless when you can couple one of the pieces with the respected counterpart.  Isn't this problem parallel to the Ritual investment problem that Long has, but more extreme?  Openings of Flash and Rector are nice, but do they occur often enough that openings of double Flash, double Rector, and hands with neither piece can reasonably be discounted?  I don't think so.  T00L also played a carbon copy of Brassman's list at this same event and did poorly and I hypothesize that it was because of the inherent inconsistency of this strategy.

This deck seems fine for skilless players, who can only maximize their chance at winning by getting lucky, but successful players usually prefer to maximize that chance through skill.  Rector Flash doesn't offer a lot of opportunities to outplay the opponent and has too many likely dead hands and unlucky draws to be attractive enough to put down something like Gifts. 

I don't agree that skillless players will win consistantly with this deck. There are enough decision trees to make it complicated enough to ward off the mediocre players. While there aren't as many decisions with this deck when compared to gifts, which is the case for the majority of other decks, there is still enough room for good players to navigate a game using their superior play to a match win.

Hands with rector in the opener are fine. Why? The answer is simply because casting rector on turn 2 isn't a very difficult task with a list that has fourteen accelerants. The four rectors combo with any copy of the seven cabal therapy/flash. Forget not the merchant scrolls which can get flash or the brainstorms which can dig for any of those eleven cards. With such a high saturation of cards that are functional with rector (flash) and without (therapy/merchant scroll), I find it hard to believe that an argument can be made that rector is a "dead" card.

Hands with flash but no rector would be the most useless because flash actually does nothing by itself except pitch to force of will and get put back in the deck with brainstorm+fetchland. Still, every deck has its semi-dead cards and not everyone can boast those dead cards being blue 2-cc instants.

[nataz]

I'm wondering if this is the case - but is this an instance in which metagame memory is just too short?   How many of you were playing Vintage in 2003 when Rector was huge? 

I was there, and I don't think "huge" is really the word you are looking for. Still, I really like the idea of rector flash. It's like ichorid, wins a lot on turn 2 + hated on by leyline, but it actualy had a good plan for when things go wrong.

Flashing in a 7/10 may or may not be the best idea ever. 2 triggers, in a deck playing white/blue/blue, sometime in the early game? You could very well lose all of your land too. 

As for hulk, meh, I think the hulk + disciple kill is terrible. SO many dead slots. Still, the green pact has merit considering its an instant speed 0cc tutor. I think if you wanted to use the Hulk kills, it would be for the tutorability, not for the possible 12 card instant kills.

I threw this kinda package together the other day:

4 green pact->
1 hulk ->

1 rector
1 children of korlis
1 Accursed Centour

which has the nice benifit of being fetchable by pact, still using the Bargain and presumed tendrils kill, plus has children for more draw if needed. I lifted the 3 combo creatures from the SCG's flash thread if anyone is curious.

[Methuselahn]

I'm wondering if this is the case - but is this an instance in which metagame memory is just too short?   How many of you were playing Vintage in 2003 when Rector was huge? 

Oh man.  Rector.  I remember testing this with teammate Brad Granberry (Rico Suave) back in '03.   I can't believe they un-nerfed it.  This is great.

I've picked up Rector again since Flash has been changed.  The deck relies less on Dark Ritual now and moreso on Flash, obviously.  This has prompted me to cut a couple Rituals of all things in favor of Misdirections.  Optimally, the deck wants to get Bargain with Flash.  The ritual-therapy plan hasn't gotten any better since 2003.  It's still ass-slow.   As far as going off goes, it's nice to have a Ritual to help cast ToA, but with Flash and lots of counters, you can easily build up storm by playing a spell and then throwing 2 pitch counters onto the stack.  Misdirection not only protects a Flash, but it builds storm with a Bargain on the table and is able to pitch useless Flashes.  So, there seems to be other options than Ritual for creating storm, but I'm not there yet with tuning.

Also, Intuition seems really good here as it can fetch both pieces, ensure you've got Cabal Therapy utility, and get a singleton Ritual or something into the grave for Will.

There's a lot of room for innovation here.

Edit:  More,

As I've been working on my own lists, I can't help but wonder why I'm not just playing Long.  Flash decks are not faster and they either require a 2 card combo or the casting of a 4cc creature and a way to get rid of it.  If Flash decks are going to be anything, I think that their ability to combo out during the opponent's turn is what has to set them apart as being a viable allternative.

Also, I've even found that using Flash 'fairly' to chump something like Titan just tickles me.

[BreathWeapon]

Smmenen, shouldn't we first establish if rector is actually right for flash deck(s)? Protean hulk is already making waves in legacy, it seems like it could find home in Vintage as well (especially post FS).

no no no.   The fact that you asked this question suggests or at least reflects a lack of familiarity with Rector and even of the Hulk combo.

Dismissing Protean Hulk is unjustified, because all of the Flash builds should use at least 4 Summoner's Pact, 1/4 Protean Hulk and 1 Elvish Spirit Guide just because it adds up to 8 additional Rectors or it compacts into 9 Rectors with 4 Summoner's Pact, 4 Protean Hulk, 1 Academy Rector, 1 Accursed Centaur, 1 Children of Korlis and Yawgmoth's Bargain and Tendrils of Agony for the win condition.

That said, I'd go with 4 Summoner's Pact, 4 Protean Hulk and the 1 Hearth Sliver and 4 Virulent Sliver win condition instead, since hard casting Rector is sub-par and the Sliver win is resilient. It's just 2 more dead cards (assuming Rector and Bargain can be hard cast, since all of the good builds of Flash I have seen use 15 mana sources, not counting Summoner's Pact or Elvish Spirit Guide) and the deck can afford to draw at least one Virulent Sliver and RFG it to Chrome Mox or Gemstone Caverns and still win.

Winning with Slivers and poison tokens in T1 is so awesome to.

[Midknight]

This is off the topic a bit. What about Sneak Attack, it allows you to play a creature from your hand with hasted, then at end of turn you sac it. I know it kinda sucks that the creature doesnt die intil end of turn. But this would work with rector, and huge fatties like Titan.

If you have Rector in play without sneak attack, you could always sac it to cabal theapy, to find it.

[zeus-online]

I don't get why people think rector is a bad card? It's honestly a quite insane card.
Pair it up with flash or therapy and its nutz...Oh and here's a use for it if you don't have flash or therapy:
Play it as a 3W moat!

Is that fish deck really going to attack you and kill your rector for you? I mean, giving you a bargain seems like a bad deal.
(I know fish has cards that can answer this such as StP, E. Truth and stifle)

Using it as a moat works against a whole group of decks such as ichorid, fish, TMWA - Anything that wins by killing you with creatures.

Flash is pretty dead though, but alot of T1 decks run dead cards.

Multiple flash with just 1 rector is fine though, every flash you play is a bomb, and should be treated as such. I bet you could even bait a counter just by playing flash, regardless if you have the rector or not - Is he really going to let you resolve a spell that could instantly kill him? Your opponent probably dosn't know wheter or not you have rector in hand.

/Zeus

[o]

Doesn't this deck, especially if it is running pacts, really want an instant speed win? And unfortunately I don't think that is possible with the Rector kill, is it?

[Whatever Works]

Rector with Flash is by far the best creature option. The only reason people use Protean Hulk in Legacy is because there aren't any good enchantments that say "I Win" in Legacy.

Protean Hulk takes more slots, and though there is that combo that uses 3 creatures with carrion feeded etc... The difference is that those cards are horrible by themselves. If you happen to draw a yawg's Bargain thats a lot better then drawing carrion feeder or a Kiki-jiki, because you can ritual bargain into play, and you win.

Bargain isnt technically an instant kill like Hulk, but its about as close as you can get and not to mention its much harder to disrupt... The try to bounce it... draw 15 cards in responce...

Real question is what kinda base this combination can fit it (would it maybe work in meandeck gifts build cutting ____?), Or perhaps build around it w/more black disruption. A lot of ways to deck this deck.

I have heard rumors that they might re-errata Flash again, and if they do I will be dissapointed. Yet at the same time relieved because its a very powerful deck.

[BreathWeapon]

Rector with Flash is by far the best creature option. The only reason people use Protean Hulk in Legacy is because there aren't any good enchantments that say "I Win" in Legacy.

Protean Hulk takes more slots, and though there is that combo that uses 3 creatures with carrion feeded etc... The difference is that those cards are horrible by themselves. If you happen to draw a yawg's Bargain thats a lot better then drawing carrion feeder or a Kiki-jiki, because you can ritual bargain into play, and you win.

Bargain isnt technically an instant kill like Hulk, but its about as close as you can get and not to mention its much harder to disrupt... The try to bounce it... draw 15 cards in responce...

Real question is what kinda base this combination can fit it (would it maybe work in meandeck gifts build cutting ____?), Or perhaps build around it w/more black disruption. A lot of ways to deck this deck.

I have heard rumors that they might re-errata Flash again, and if they do I will be dissapointed. Yet at the same time relieved because its a very powerful deck.

No, people use Protean Hulk because it can be tutored for with Summoner's Pact, and even if Yawgmoth's Bagain was legal in 1.5, I would still use Protean Hulk, because there's no point in adding more than 15 mana just to be able to hard cast the Academy Rectors and an outlet.

The three card combo with Rector isn't horrible, because it just requires Rector, Centaur and Children, and altho the Centaur is dead, the Children is still useful, because it protects against Tendrils, Warrens Ghoul etc.

Straight Rector is 100% wrong.

[desolutionist]

Moreover, as I remarked in my opening commentary, Rector is great by itself (desolutionist, you missed this somehow).  Once you find the Cabal Therapy, you flash back Therapy saccing Rector and get Bargain.

Since my assertions about Flash and Rector have not been refuted, I'm going to assume that you agree with me there.

Cabal Therapy reintroduces the old logic behind why Rector decks weren't very successfully immediately before the un-errata.  Investing three to five cards into Yawgmoth's Bargain is unacceptable and you are better off, ultimately, using Grim Tutors and Cabal Rituals because they are more useful with other combinations of cards.  So even though CT may patch the inconsistency of the deck, aren't they just pushing the deck to an even more linear state?

I don't agree that skillless players will win consistantly with this deck. There are enough decision trees to make it complicated enough to ward off the mediocre players. While there aren't as many decisions with this deck when compared to gifts, which is the case for the majority of other decks, there is still enough room for good players to navigate a game using their superior play to a match win.

Using a deck like this has a greater possibility of getting a busted opener than a deck like Gifts and thus, over a course of a tournament, any player will have more obvious opportunities to randomly win, making it a shallow and easier-to-understand deck.  Decision trees exist in every deck and in every format; the difference is the depth of the trees.  In a deck like Long, the last node and path to that node of the tree is often unclear as it could be any one of Bargain, Desire, Will, or just lethal storm.  In this deck, the last node is rarely anything but Flash+Academy Rector so priorities are easily identified. 

T00L also played a carbon copy of Brassman's list at this same event and did poorly and I hypothesize that it was because of the inherent inconsistency of this strategy.

The Flash deck seems very scary but I question its consistency.  One person couldn't win a game with it while the other one didn't lose a game until top 4, and both are very close in skill level.  So I really don't know how that 'thing' will hold up in the long run, but I'm curious.

I don't want to make any claims as to the consistency of the deck, as it's still pretty young to the format, but Stefan's two match losses were user error.  While normally a tight gifts player, Stefan made some small combo mistakes that turned at least one guarenteed match win into a loss, making his results not 100% accurate for measuring deck power.  (In all fairness, *my* results were probably a little on the lucky side).

Neither player's results can be considered as accurate data because there is no way to account for the opponents' errors.  The statistics still show that one player did well and the other did not, which is in accordance with my claim that the deck is capable of both the best hands in Vintage and the worst.

[Implacable]

When thinking about how to build this deck, here's what immediately came to mind:

1) Merchant Scrolls must be in this deck.  They find 1/2 of your combo for 2 mana, and can also be used to get Force or Ancestral.  Sold, to the fat man in the bikini.

2) Therefore, this deck already has the following components:

4 Academy Rector

4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
3-4 Flash
1 Ancestral Recall

3) Now clearly, Scroll is amazing in (as this deck seems to be shaping up to be) any sort of controllish combo deck.  In addition to fetching good stuff, it also gets random things like Chain of Vapor to protect against hate.

4) Next, we get to the rest of the protection.  First, I hate, hate, HATE Cabal Therapy.  The card is terrible.  I don't care if it's nice with Rector.  It sucks.  The three pieces of disruption that I can see going in are Duress, Misdirection, and Mana Drain.  The first one that I dismiss is Misdirection.  PitchLong just loses to Gifts, and adding Misdirections would make this deck do the same.  Therefore, we have the following:

4 Academy Rector

4 Duress (or Mana Drain.  I love Duress very much, and it always loves me back.  Can't say the same for Drain!)
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
3-4 Flash
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor

5) Now comes the time to add combo elements.  Obviously, we will be playing 2-3 enchantments to fetch with Rector and thus win the game.  We will also be playing 4 Dark Ritual, because they are good in any combo deck.  Ever.

4 Academy Rector

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Dark Ritual
3 Flash
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

1 Ancestral Recall

6) Now we come to library manipulation. This is fairly simple.  We add 4 Brainstorm (OMG SO MANY INSANE PLAYS LOLZ!!!1) and the 4 tutors of Type 1.  I choose to include Imperial Seal because in a deck that wins with Necro/Bargain, library manipulation is just good. 

4 Academy Rector

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Dark Ritual
3 Flash
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

7) Finally, we add the cards that make Type 1 decks good, just because they are.

1 Dream Halls (Hey, here's a good third target for Rector!)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

8) Hmm...  Look's like we're at ~30 cards.  The final list, with some tweaking!  (My thought process likes revision)

4 Academy Rector

4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Flash
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy

There, my preliminary build.  Obviously, it needs work.  However, this would be much approach when it comes to building a Flash deck.

[Whatever Works]

Rector with Flash is by far the best creature option. The only reason people use Protean Hulk in Legacy is because there aren't any good enchantments that say "I Win" in Legacy.

Protean Hulk takes more slots, and though there is that combo that uses 3 creatures with carrion feeded etc... The difference is that those cards are horrible by themselves. If you happen to draw a yawg's Bargain thats a lot better then drawing carrion feeder or a Kiki-jiki, because you can ritual bargain into play, and you win.

Bargain isnt technically an instant kill like Hulk, but its about as close as you can get and not to mention its much harder to disrupt... The try to bounce it... draw 15 cards in responce...

Real question is what kinda base this combination can fit it (would it maybe work in meandeck gifts build cutting ____?), Or perhaps build around it w/more black disruption. A lot of ways to deck this deck.

I have heard rumors that they might re-errata Flash again, and if they do I will be dissapointed. Yet at the same time relieved because its a very powerful deck.

No, people use Protean Hulk because it can be tutored for with Summoner's Pact, and even if Yawgmoth's Bagain was legal in 1.5, I would still use Protean Hulk, because there's no point in adding more than 15 mana just to be able to hard cast the Academy Rectors and an outlet.

The three card combo with Rector isn't horrible, because it just requires Rector, Centaur and Children, and altho the Centaur is dead, the Children is still useful, because it protects against Tendrils, Warrens Ghoul etc.

Straight Rector is 100% wrong.

No no no... You confused what I was saying. I was saying that I wouldnt use protean Hulk in type 1, and I happened to give legacy as an example, but that is strictly another arguement altogether.

[BreathWeapon]

Rector with Flash is by far the best creature option. The only reason people use Protean Hulk in Legacy is because there aren't any good enchantments that say "I Win" in Legacy.

Protean Hulk takes more slots, and though there is that combo that uses 3 creatures with carrion feeded etc... The difference is that those cards are horrible by themselves. If you happen to draw a yawg's Bargain thats a lot better then drawing carrion feeder or a Kiki-jiki, because you can ritual bargain into play, and you win.

Bargain isnt technically an instant kill like Hulk, but its about as close as you can get and not to mention its much harder to disrupt... The try to bounce it... draw 15 cards in responce...

Real question is what kinda base this combination can fit it (would it maybe work in meandeck gifts build cutting ____?), Or perhaps build around it w/more black disruption. A lot of ways to deck this deck.

I have heard rumors that they might re-errata Flash again, and if they do I will be dissapointed. Yet at the same time relieved because its a very powerful deck.

No, people use Protean Hulk because it can be tutored for with Summoner's Pact, and even if Yawgmoth's Bagain was legal in 1.5, I would still use Protean Hulk, because there's no point in adding more than 15 mana just to be able to hard cast the Academy Rectors and an outlet.

The three card combo with Rector isn't horrible, because it just requires Rector, Centaur and Children, and altho the Centaur is dead, the Children is still useful, because it protects against Tendrils, Warrens Ghoul etc.

Straight Rector is 100% wrong.

No no no... You confused what I was saying. I was saying that I wouldnt use protean Hulk in type 1, and I happened to give legacy as an example, but that is strictly another arguement altogether.

I understood, but what I don't understand is the reason people are adding an additional 10+ mana sources to a deck that needs a minimum of 15 mana sources, not counting Summoner's Pact and Elvish Spirit Guide as mana sources, and replacing good disruption with bad disruption just to be able to hard cast Academy Rector, when instead, Protean Hulk results in the same number of dead cards, twice the speed and better disruption.

There just seems to be this basic assumption that Academy Rector is superior to Protean Hulk, because you can hard cast it, but it's complete BS, because people are adding more dead cards in the form of excess mana and weakening their disruption for a B rate plan that was considered unviable in the metagame just a moment ago.

[ZedLeppelin]

I think one of the main reasons people like Hulk is because of Summoner's Pact. It just makes going off more likely, and earlier. Because typically, with counter backup, as soon as you play Flash it's gg.

So say you have flash and fow in hand, and no tutors. You draw Summoner's Pact, play it for 0, BAM, game 2.


However, I still think Rector is the way to go. Hulk just requires too many slots--I'd rather fill those with meaningful disruption and such, even at the cost of not having a 0CC tutor for your flashee.

[nataz]

From andys list:
4 rector + 3 therp =  bargain @ 7 cards

hulk list:
1 rector + 1 children + 1 accursed + 1 Hulk = bargain (or null profusion in legacy) @ 4 cards

You know what goes great with all those slots you've saved? A certain 0cc tutor that fetches hulk.

Now, you could argue that therp has certain synergies with the deck, like being a decent discard spell. But children has the advantage of allowing you to draw up to 57 cards (in combonation with 20 life and will), which makes it much easier to go off early while looking for black mana (jet/chrome/lotus/petal/etc.)

Really, what you lose is flexability. Andy's list, Meddling Mage on Flash; whatever, he'll just ritual rector into play and blast it with therp. Pithing needle out, w/e, Andy can just tinker out the big doods and look for the win. Pact versions tend to be faster (and play out like grim-long w/o crappy draw 7's), but can also fold to a timely leyline of the void, or even something as simple as targeted discard like duress.


BTW:
The sliver plan seems trashy because you have to attack + no be blocked. 

[Samite Healer]

I have been toying around with Rector Flash for a bit now too, and I have come to the following conclusions:

1) I think Necropotence should be in the deck so long as Dark Rituals are being run in quantities greater than two.  The power of Necro is obvious, but the reason I mentioned the disclaimer about quantity is because I was testing a build that was running only two for awhile.  I think that four is probably the way to go, but I am still unsure.

2) With multiple rituals, a ton of artifact mana, and several tutors I believe that Mind's Desire might merit a slot in the maindeck.

3) Flashing a Sundering Titan is cute, but unnecessary.  If you are resolving flash, why not just win the game?  If you have Flash and Titan, why not have a card instead of 7/10 that lets you find a card to win the game?

4) Protean Hulk and/or any other kill method seems suboptimal given the amount of slots that is/are required.

5) Since I have been trying to squeeze cards into the deck, I have seriously considered cutting Time Walk.


Despite the amazing synergy between Cabal Therapy and Rector, I have been contemplating how essential the Therapy is to the strategy of the deck if I am primarily using Flash as my Rector engine.  At one point, focusing simply on resolving Flash, I have considered running Duress and Misdirection in addition to FoW.

However, the synergy of running Therapy still can't be dismissed so easily.

There is still an infinite amount of testing to be done, but I would like to say that before you *auto* include Therapy into your deck, first consider the alternatives.  The best build probably does run Therapy, but I believe it would be a bit too hasty to call those slots as concrete at this point.

[LotusHead]

3) Flashing a Sundering Titan is cute, but unnecessary.  If you are resolving flash, why not just win the game?  If you have Flash and Titan, why not have a card instead of 7/10 that lets you find a card to win the game?

Combining Flash technology with Titan might wreck Gifts/Basics&Duals.dec, but combined with Animate Dead, a new version of Cereberal Assassin might emerge.

A build could get away with possible Thirst for Knowledge, no Bazaars, and fatty artifacts wouldn't be dead in hand anymore. I agree that Flash decks would likely abuse Merchant Scoll for endless possibilities.

[Samite Healer]

3) Flashing a Sundering Titan is cute, but unnecessary.  If you are resolving flash, why not just win the game?  If you have Flash and Titan, why not have a card instead of 7/10 that lets you find a card to win the game?

Combining Flash technology with Titan might wreck Gifts/Basics&Duals.dec, but combined with Animate Dead, a new version of Cereberal Assassin might emerge.

A build could get away with possible Thirst for Knowledge, no Bazaars, and fatty artifacts wouldn't be dead in hand anymore. I agree that Flash decks would likely abuse Merchant Scoll for endless possibilities.

Interesting, but if I were running thirst for Knowledge and fat artifacts, I'd probably just rather run Welders and Slavers.  I also agree though, that Merchant Scroll is the nuts and even more so now that it fetches (a useful) Flash.

[zeus-online]

Has the entire vintage community missed out on something the past 4 years or what?
Cabal therapy is not a bad card, its extremely good, especially coupled with duress...and Rector is just icing on the cake.

The reason that some people prefer hulk is that they mis-assert the power of other cards, and claim them to be "dead".
(Cards such as Rector and therapy)

And to those who thinks 1 hulk and 3-4 summoner's pact is the way to go:
Why not just run 4x hulk? That's probably the only card you CAN fetch with it anyways.

..Oh and anything that involves attacking after comboing, just plain sucks, it's far easier to disrupt, any bounce or removal spell will probably do.

And about sundering titan: Titan is often superior to DSC when using tinker, and at the same time it got synergy with flash, so why NOT use it?..Tinker/Titan is a decent plan B aswell.

/Zeus

[TorpidNinja]

Steven, do you think this deck will be Tier 1 in the Vintage meta game?

Flash has, at this point, spawned two great looking decks and, with reference to the Cerebral Assassin comment, potentially several more. The Rector-Flash idea looks fantastic and is certainly more of a skill tester than the Hulk version (albeit not by much.) Why then  is there so much uproar about this de-errata on the Source compared to the combination of the Mana Drain and the Mana Leak? Granted, there's little time before the GPT, and that seems enough to be annoyed, but there's little in the way of voiced concern about this card (re: BAN IT BAN IT!)

Simply put: why are people freaking out on the Source but not on the Mana Leak/Drain? (This isn't supposed to instigate us v. them rhetoric but apologies in advance if it does.)

[yespuhyren]

Simply put: why are people freaking out on the Source but not on the Mana Leak/Drain? (This isn't supposed to instigate us v. them rhetoric but apologies in advance if it does.)

The source proably isn't as used to OMG this is br0ken gonna ruin the format cards and first turn combo kills like we are (see long w/4 LED 4 Burning Wish).  Vintage players have been through a lot worse than this.

[Moxlotus]

It hasn't been said yet, but another reason to use Hulk is because Rector bends over to Tormod's Crypt.

Has the entire vintage community missed out on something the past 4 years or what?
Cabal therapy is not a bad card, its extremely good, especially coupled with duress

There is a reason Therapy hasn't been used in Vintage.  It is unacceptable to miss with a Therapy.  Extended doesn't have Force, which is what Vintage decks use instead.

4) Protean Hulk and/or any other kill method seems suboptimal given the amount of slots that is/are required.
 

I wouldn't say that.  If you cut Rector, you can slash out a huge chunk of the manabase and use Pacts to tutor and for protection.

[zeus-online]

Has the entire vintage community missed out on something the past 4 years or what?
Cabal therapy is not a bad card, its extremely good, especially coupled with duress

There is a reason Therapy hasn't been used in Vintage.  It is unacceptable to miss with a Therapy.  Extended doesn't have Force, which is what Vintage decks use instead.

...urh except that is HAS been used in vintage, and you shouldn't really miss all that often if you're halfway decent - And if you miss after a duress you have the worst short term memory ever.

Why is everyone thinking that hand-rape is irrelevant? I realize that brainstorm somewhat helps against discard effects, but not nearly enough to render them useless. (And i do realize that it's not "everyone", but i've seen quite a bit of comments about how discard effects are not good)

/Zeus