[Deck] "Darwin Fish" or U/W splash B Fish.

[hauntedechos]

Greetings fellow Vintage players,

I try to post as little as possible, preferring PM and e-mail communications, however I feel that this is something that I would like to reveal to the Fish population on TMD.com  First off, if it is felt that this post should be moved to Fish TEH PRIMER, that would be fine as this is something that me and Dave have been considering/working on anyways.

Fisrt off, if you haven't read Dave's primer already, please do so and then come back to this.

Fish in the U/W sence is inherently reactive.  With FoW and Daze and the usual stifle tricks, it relies on you opponent to do something, and then you disrupt it and maybe counter it -all the while you keep the ww beat clock on them.  This has been fine for the past 8 months or so (Dave has sugested U/W has been in it's prime for about this amount of time, I'd have to agree), but is increasingly finding it's matchups on steeper uphill battles.  U/B Fish finds some of the potent wepons to be pro-active in nature because of the nature of Black answers as well as Bob to bolster the draw engine, where U/W only has Brainstorm as a Hand fixer and a lone A.Recall.  Problem is that in some situations you find yourself taking hits from Bob when yeah lose 5 for flipping a FOW.  In addition to that, the creature base isn't as disruptive/solid as the ww approach.

After many e-mails and some PM's, I provided Dave with a Fish list that was regarded as being on the right track and recently gave me a Top8 in a 32 preson Timewalk event here in Toronto.  I will provide you with the list as well:

lands//19
x1 Stripmine
x3 Wastland
x3 Flooded Strand
x2 Polluted Delta
x3 Tundra
x3 U.Sea
x2 Island
x1 Plains
x1 Swamp

Creatures//14
x4 Meddling Mage
x3 Jotun Grunt
x3 Savanah Lions
x2 Isamaru
x2 Kataki

Spells//27
x4 FoW
x3 Daze
x1 Misdirection
x1 Time Walk
x3 Duress
x1 Extirpate
x2 Echoing Truth

x4 Brainstorm
x1 Demonic Tutor
x1 Vampiric Tutor

x3 Nullrod

x1 Lotus
x1 Mox Pearl
x1 Mox Jet

SB//15
x1 Kataki
x1 wipe away
x3 Stifle
x3 Orim's Chant
x3 Umezawa's Jitte
x2 Old Man of the Sea
x1 Extirpate
x1 Tormod's Crypt

So let's get into card choices/discussion.
Duress/ extirpate over Stifle/Seal of cleansing main.  I was testing this set up and found that I'd rather have the Duress and Extirpate main, leaving the stifle tricks in the side for match ups where they would be needed.  Duress and extirpate provide a few things, not the least is a very strong proactive approach that many combo decks don't want to have to deal with in addition to the already pain in the arse U/W set up.  With the popluarity of Long.dec and Gifts.dec I think this is a strong approach.  We all know the "knee jerk" Brainstorm in response to Duress, but nothing you do will prevent that, it's just a hot play.  The other thing this aspect can provide Fish, that it previously did not have, is the chance to get your opponent to blow a counter over something that isn't really your primary game plan anyways and then potentially extirpate said counter leaving you with higher counter numbers.  In the last event, that they can't do anything about it, you've just snagged a piece from thier hand and seen thier game plan.  All of the above are options that were occupied by Stifle and a Seal of Cleansing.  This is the crux of what the Duress and extirpate do when/if they resolve.

The Mental effect:
Potentialy the greater of the two effects, dependent on the matchup and the player.  game1 has shown the player the additions you've made and this will have a few effects as you shuffle up for game2.  The first of which is the reaction to Duress...add "sh*t, WTF" and a host of other possible reactions, again dependent on the match up/player.  They are now wondering, post board, how many more, less Duress/Extirpates you've just added in and are now planning on how they will play around these recent developments.  They also now realise that they are playing a hybrid of U/W and U/B, taking the best of both worlds and none of the drawbacks of either.  They now have to deal with a relentless clock, reactive disruption and pro active threats, some of which are pretty swingy effects dependent on what they nail.  All of this will cause them to either A) attempt a blitz (combo) which you still have your FoW and Daze to try and deal with turn 1 shenanigans or B) play slower/more conservative/around the proactive cards. In which case you still have Duress/Extirpate to force the plays they are expecting and still retain your reactive counters/disruption.  The entire time either scenario is unfolding, the clock ticks on.  Of course, this new position of power (excuse the pun in relation to power and Fish) can also cause play mistakes in some players, which is always a good thing.

The Tutors:
Well we've expanded and improved the tutor base.  Mystical has been traded off for the Vampiric and Demonic added for the increase power of tutor power over Bob's draw/take a hit daw engine.  This provides incredible flexibility and "just in time" answer delivery.  demonic for Lotus, Recall, extirpate, etc. has been incredible in my last tournament (in one incident while I was on the play " u.sea, Mox jet ->D.Tutor for Lotus crack for www drop Null rod and Isamaru next turn was kataki dropping and game very shortly after that.  Duress was fired off taking welder and extirpate shortly after that...as the clock was ticking).  It's not always game winning, but it's a flexibility I'd rather have then do without,..for stifle#2 and Mystical tutor.

The SB:
There isn't a whole heck of a lot to talk about here -It's mainly tailored to my meta.  The stifles are in there, x3 because of the rise of Manaless Ichorid and are sided in in the stead of Duress for that match up.  Extirpate #2 and Tormod's as well to round that match up out.  x3 Chant's for everything combo.

Most of the rest of the deck is solid U/W Feinstein Fish and thus I won't rehash what Dave has already provided the community with.  This deck is NOT finalized, it was worked on for about a month, and play testing was limited to what my friends have to play versus.  The only other testing came at the tournament in which I did no better than a typical U/W list.  What was promising was two things, A) I didn't do WORSE than U/W  B) the manabase was SOLID in the face of wastes and C)I felt much more relaxed, because I was able to apply pressure and know that I had free counter back up (turn 1 on the play Duress *Force* Daze was pretty hot for me all day long).  Now no one is saying that this is going to push Fish to the top of the lists, I'm simply stating that this is an attempt to help U/W evolve w/o taking any kinda hit from fully changed lists a la Bob/Dimmir cutpurse etc.  The addition of B, also provides players a chance to experiment with other possible answers to problematic match ups.

Keep in mind that I'm NOT claiming this is Uber unknown tech, I'm posting this as a platform to discuss the splash blacks possibilities.  As well as suggestions to my list provided.  It's been working positivly so far, improving and in some cases winning Oath, Ichorid, Stax, Gifts and most Tendrils based decks - match ups.

As a last note, Uba stax and I went into extra turns and I tutored for Balance *gasp*! and it pulled me out of a loss to a win.  I'm currently looking into it's and Massacre *GASP!!!* use in mirror and aggro match ups.

cheers
Michael

[wethepeople]

Why on earth does your list lack the best creature card that has to offer, Dark Confidant?

Aside from that significant problem with your list, I have a few other things that I would reccommend. In the sideboard, I would highly suggest running Leyline of the Void. Leyline stops Ichorid, and the new Vintage-combo deck, Flash-Rector. Both of these decks are bound to a good amount of play once Future Sight is released, so sideboarding more than just two cards would help a lot.

I know that no one really likes this idea, but I personally think that Children of Korlis should be played in your 1-drop creature slot, as opposed to Lions. The reason is that Combo has become much faster, as goes for Ichorid. Fish's disruption may just be too slow for the deck now. Children of Korlis isn't exactly golden, but it is just another card that your opponent can't get by while it's on the table, whereas Savannah Lions don't even cross their mind. In regular U/W Fish, I would just run True Believe over Kataki, however, the  {W}-mana requirements have been difficult to get a hold of in time, in a three color build.

The curve in UWb Fish is much higher on two, so I have found that running 3-4 Moxen best, because it greatens the probability of getting a turn one Confidant, and making your early game stronger overall.

Like I have said before, the entire idea of Fish must be completely re-thought, because the post-FS metagame will be changing drastically. Your list in particular doesn't appear to be anywhere near what I would consider "on the right track."

[Sextiger]

If your gonna run black in a fish deck you need to be running Dark Confidant.

This deck also doesn't stand a chance in hell of beating Ichorid.  Leylines could help but they are terrible in fish builds due to their slow clock, drawing them is the last thing you wanna do, not to mention revealing them off a Confidant could get you killed. 

[wethepeople]

If your gonna run black in a fish deck you need to be running Dark Confidant.

This deck also doesn't stand a chance in hell of beating Ichorid.  Leylines could help but they are terrible in fish builds due to their slow clock, drawing them is the last thing you wanna do, not to mention revealing them off a Confidant could get you killed. 

I have been using them for a while now, and have thought they've worked just fine. I currently run them over Planar Void because I don't believe that PV stops Rector's ability, and it also kills all of your Jotun Grunts. Flipping them versus Ichorid is not going to kill you, because it is only four damage, and your opponent probably won't be doing too much damage because existing Voids will completely shut down their entire deck.

[Moxlotus]

I'll be the echo, I doubt black is worth running if you don't run Dark Confidant.  He is just that damn good. 

[TheDeadMan]

I myself have been kicking around the idea of a 3 color fish deck, ive taken a slightly less beatdown and more disruptive version of what you have in mind. So far in my testing 3 color has proved to be srtong, but as of date it still needs something to push it over the top. The major issue I see with your build is the lack of stifles md. The lone extripate seems very out of place even with the tutors, any reason in particular you run only 1?

[Sextiger]

The problem with Leyline in a fish deck against Ichorid is that you basically mulligan to it or lose, plus there's always the chance they can answer it.  Now that Vegeta's article is out, people will probably borrow his sideboard which is IMO the best Ichorid SB out there. 

[wethepeople]

The problem with Leyline in a fish deck against Ichorid is that you basically mulligan to it or lose, plus there's always the chance they can answer it.  Now that Vegeta's article is out, people will probably borrow his sideboard which is IMO the best Ichorid SB out there. 

Yes, that may be true, but mulliganing just 1-2 times almost always has given me an okay hand to play with, as well as atleast one Leyline of the Void. With Ichorid being such a fast deck, you can't rely on any other GY removal that isn't found in your opening hand. Games without disruption versus Ichorid generally last 2-3 turns, so that doesn't give you much time at all to find a Tormod's Crypt, Extirpate, et cetera. If you really believe that relying on four Leylines would be inconsistent, then you can very easily cut a card or two from your sideboard, and add something else. (I'd reccomend Extirpate for it's versatility.)

For whatever it's worth, here is my UWb Fish thread from not too long ago. The lists found in the thread would all need to be updated, however, it I believe that there is some good information regarding this kind of build in there.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31880.0

[hauntedechos]

Well, thanks for all the input.

Dark Conf:  I don't like taking the loss of life from him in ANY amount.  I've lost matches from flipping FoW's and MisD's.  Beyond that I feel comfortable with 2 B tutors and 4Hand fixers and the recall.  I'm agreeing with Philip, that his draw ability is indeed great, I just don't personally like him.

3 Moxen:  This could be a possibility, however NullRod and Kataki usually come out so quick that it has the possibility of creating dead cards if I draw into moxen mid to late game.  I'll have to test that possibility over the benifits of increasing turn 1 Rods/2ccbeater chances.

Children:  I had tested this before, and to good results, however I went back to the clock instead of leaning on the 1drop Combo hater.  With FS speeding Combo up, I may have to revisit this idea as well.

TrueBeliver:  I acknowledge the benifit of dropping him in the face of a Combo player.  However, I find that the bolstered mana denial theme with NullRod+Kataki to be too strong against the entire field (minus Ichorid of course).  It makes me more comfortable to force players to put the power in the bin vs. stall the combo out untill they can grab chain of vapour etc. (again I undertand Massacre will wreck my plans with Kataki, but it would do the same if TB was on the board as well, at least Kataki has an effect on the board.)

Flash-Rector & Ichorid Matches:  I have not played a Rector deck yet, and thus may find out more needs for changes.  In terms of Manaless Ichorid (pre-FS), my matches have all been wins.  Duress came out for Stifles and the 2nd Extirpate was sided in as well.  Between 3Stifles, 2extirpates a Tormod's Crypt, a stripmine, 3 Wastelands and Umezawa's Jittes, I had no issue with stuffing the matches away.  Now when Ichorid starts running Street Wraiths and Pals, I know the beast will have changed tremendusly and will require further thought.  I will continue to consider these changes and make them accordingly.

Leyline:  I value the ability that they provide me vs. Ichorid and combo matches (if they are intending on leaning on Yawg'sWin or if they are Gifts.dec), but they counteract Grunts needs and thus would require me to side them in and Grunts out in exchange for other beaters.  This would be pretty taxing on the SB slots and create the need to streamline SB slots to archtypes vs. specific matchups I think.  This is not a bad idea at first thought, but time will tell.

All in all I feel that I will have to hit the drawing boards again.  I thank everyone for there responses and interest in Fish (even in it's declining state).  Please feel free to PM me with any ideas/criticisms you may have.  As well I can be reached at
michaelsamson13@gmail.com if anyone would like to converse more.

Cheers
Mike

Just read the thread on Flash-Rector:  I think Flash-Rector is going to be another Combo deck to deal with.  It's seems like it has the potential to be considerably faster than Long.dec and pals.  I think that the weight on Children might be more convincing now, but honestly as it was said in the Flash-Rector thread, "the vintage community has been through worse"  Still it causes enough concern to lean the Fish decks towards a) destroying mana accelerants via moxen etc. and b)upping the count of combo specific hate...Fish pretty well already does this anyways.

[the boogie man]

What about the jailer as a two-of? It works to destroy ichorid, helps against gifts, and is still a threat.

[T00L]

What about the jailer as a two-of? It works to destroy ichorid, helps against gifts, and is still a threat.

While I personally like jailer i don't see how it helps against gifts. I could of course just be missing something obvious.

[Cross]

Stops recoup, but I don't really see how that hurts gifts. They're just going to Empty on you, they don't have to will out like against other decks.

[T00L]

It stops recoup from the yard not from the hand

[the boogie man]

Ah, but it also stops yawgs will from having flashback.

[hauntedechos]

Well, the more I read on Flash-Rector and think about the upcomming cards that are going to speed things up a great deal, I'd have to agree that the Children are looking more and more like a Mainboard nessecity.  My original thought on this was in conerns with the Kataki+Nullrod effect, but it's looking more and more like the need to stop turn 1 (when your on the play) kills is much more important.

The other issue is with Rector hitting the board -as was already brought up.  It was mentioned that Fish really doesn't want to kill it self by putting the Lady in the Yard.  This means looking at the options Fish has when combating Gifts.dec w/warrens IE e.truth, but in this situation perhalps Wipe Away (could the casting cost make the spell too slow in the face of it's split second bonus?)

Does the hype of Flash-Rector translate into garunteed high percentages of players piloting it? and dies that in turn translate into x3 Stifle main and siding the Duress / extirpate out?  Should Duress be scrapped in favour of x3 extirpate instead?

As MoxLotus has posted in another thread, Duress and Force cannot live in harmony.  Thus Duress gets the axe and Extirpate gets the slots? leading to trying to squeeze x3 Stifles between side and main?

The reduction of 2/X beaters for the 1/1 combo stopped slows the clock down untill a Grunt can hit the board, will this slow the clock WAY too mcuh for Fish to be viable.  Or is Fish already shaping up to take a nap untill the environment slows down anyways?

Further to Grunt vs. the Lady, even if we get a chance to bounce her, and get a beat in w/grunt, what kind of time does that buy us before the next Flash? and can stifle/FoW buy us enough time?

I know these are questions vs. answers that I suppose I'm supposed to give to the challenges to the build -but I am in a position where, I myself don't know and need to consult with all of you fine fine Vintage players.

thanks
Mke

[the boogie man]

I think that duress and force of will can co-exist perfectly fine in fish. The problem that it had in long was a combination of card disadvantage (force) and more non-blue disruption (duress), which was causing more better blue cards to be pitched, and having to waste a turn or a mana casting duress. In fish, you have the luxury of time, or at least more time, or else you are losing anyway. also, fish definitely can slow down the combo enough in most cases to prevent the awkward casting cost of rector to be an issue.

[Moxlotus]

As MoxLotus has posted in another thread, Duress and Force cannot live in harmony.

No no no no no.  I don't think Duress and Force can live in harmony in Grim Tutor combo.  Duress and Force work great together in Fish.

[Kieranwolf]

Rector Flash (and Hulk Flash) are probably going to see play, but probably not as much as Ichorid as far as I'm guessing. That alone is more than enough to include 4 Leyline in the main. If Flash outnumbers Ichorid, Extirpate might end up being better. Don't forget that you can Duress out a Flash, then Extirpate it. You'd need Cabal Therapy to nail Hulk or Rector this way...but wouldn't that be sweet?

Children of Korlis are also a good combo with Confidant if you always seem to flip expensive cards. It might help you keep your life total in the safe zone while you beat down.