[Post-FS Deck Discussion] Hulk Flash, Hulk Smash

[alvin6688]

EDIT: Sorry, wrong thread.

[Fred The Ev]

Flash is a really really good deck. I mean, so good that wizards might have to restrict flash. what do you guys think? Will wizards have to restrict flash?

[The Atog Lord]

Let's keep the discussion on the deck itself, and not on any possible changes to the Restricted List.

[zeus-online]

A thought just occurred to me....Has anyone thought of combining flash hulk and flash rector...with 4 protean hulks, 4 academy rector and 1-2 carrion feeder you could flash either rector (to get bargain), or hulk to get Rector + Feeder = Bargain....Still enables the deck to hardcast the rector, while also running "8" cards to flash out.

The deck should probably include a few cabal therapies in the case of drawing a feeder or hardcast a rector....

Anyways just a few ideas, not tested at all just a random stroke of genius (or perhaps ramblings of a mad man, you decide )

/Zeus

[Purple Hat]

zeus, I'm not a huge fan of that idea.  all the cards that are good with hulk are bad draws off bargain, all the cards that are good with bargain don't help you play hulk.

EDIT:  that sounded really harsh, I fixed it

[diopter]

zeus, that's not a very good idea.  all the cards that are good with hulk are bad draws off bargain, all the cards that are good with bargain don't help you play hulk.

Actually I think Zeus' idea is interesting if you view Hulk solely as Rectors 5-8. The only card(s) you'd have to add to facilitate Hulk are 1-2 Carrion Feeders (or equivalent sac outlet at 2 mana - there is some potential here for additioanl utilty) - overall you'd have less dead cards than Hulk does.

Interesting idea Zeus!

[Purple Hat]

zeus, that's not a very good idea.  all the cards that are good with hulk are bad draws off bargain, all the cards that are good with bargain don't help you play hulk.

Actually I think Zeus' idea is interesting if you view Hulk solely as Rectors 5-8. The only card(s) you'd have to add to facilitate Hulk are 1-2 Carrion Feeders (or equivalent sac outlet at 2 mana - there is some potential here for additioanl utilty) - overall you'd have less dead cards than Hulk does.

Interesting idea Zeus!

the problem is drawing hulk off bargain is terrible and if flash on protean hulk resolves you should just win the game now instead of screwing around.  You lose the backup plan of hardcasting bargain or trying to just tendrils off, you lose the protection of hulk because you can't play as many counters if you want to be drawing into stuff you can cast to build storm.

[zeus-online]

I don't think you'll loose that much protection, the combo will be using these slots:
4 Flash
4 Academy rector
4 Hulk
1 Carrion feeder
1 Bargain
1 Tendrils of agony

Which is not that different from:
4 Flash
4 Hulk
4 Summoner's pact
2 Body Snatcher
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

You'll ofcourse have to change the disruption a bit, something like: 4 FoW, X Misd, 4 duress, 2 cabal therapy...And dark rituals might be a good idea, enabling you to hardcast bargain or rector.

Haven't tested any of it, just thinking out loud

/Zeus

[Iaak]

I've been running the Kiki-Karma version main deck and then subbing in Cephalid illusionist, nomads en-kor, stern proctor, dread return, dragons breath, sutured Ghoul, hapless researcher. Mill your deck then return the Ghoul
You win most first games, then side out the Kiki-Karma kill and side in Cephalid+nomads along with the proctor and you can bounce their crypt or planar void, pithing needle hits carrion feeder which isn't in the deck now, or you can bounce the needle. The hapless researcher allows you to discard any peice of the combo.
It means there are two cards in the deck that you can't go off if you have them in hand, and both of which are easy to cast (playing one Tundra), you've sided in answers to crypt and planar void and the proctor can still be hardcast to bounce leyline. It runs two more slots then the sliver version and unlike the heart sliver you can cast eitheir of the two cards you don't want to draw, the ghoul can also trample over a colosus no worries. If extirpate is a problem then you can run meddling mage in the sidebaord as well, or Mesmeric Fiend and take a card before you go off.
That leaves 8 slots in my sideboard which is 3 CoV 4 leyline 1Echoing Truth
What do people think?
Was also wondering what people think about the possible addition of Timetwister to the deck. It has been working pretty well for me as if my combo peices have been countered or duressed I find myself tutoring for the twister and twistering rather than sitting tight until i draw into both peices.

[Purple Hat]

I don't think you'll loose that much protection, the combo will be using these slots:
4 Flash
4 Academy rector
4 Hulk
1 Carrion feeder
1 Bargain
1 Tendrils of agony

Which is not that different from:
4 Flash
4 Hulk
4 Summoner's pact
2 Body Snatcher
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

You'll ofcourse have to change the disruption a bit, something like: 4 FoW, X Misd, 4 duress, 2 cabal therapy...And dark rituals might be a good idea, enabling you to hardcast bargain or rector.

Haven't tested any of it, just thinking out loud

/Zeus

the problem is flash on rector or flash on hulk is storm 1.  you draw 19 cards.  your deck isn't very efficient because it plays a whole bunch of non mana positive non tutor cards for the flash combo.  it's producing the next 8 spells with 2BB floating that's a problem with this concept.  also instead of going through all that why not just win?  this doesn't solve very much hate imo, and it seems to take the worst parts of the two decks and fuse them rather than the best parts.

@Iaak: I think the idea of a transformational sideboard is always interesting with a deck that's winning a very very high percentage of game 1's.  the problem in this case is that the transformation seems to run up against the exact same hate as the original deck.  people are going to hate flash with, among other things, graveyard hate.  playing reanimator combo to get around graveyard hate seems silly.

[Implacable]

I agree 100% with Purple Hat.  However, on the subject of transformational sideboards, I am currently testing the Virulent Sliver + Heart Sliver sideboard plan, which gets around Tormod's Crypt, Honor the Fallen, and Pithing Needle (all resurgent hate pieces against Flash and the format at large).  It seems good so far.

[zeus-online]

This doesn't solve very much hate imo, and it seems to take the worst parts of the two decks and fuse them rather than the best parts.

Actually it solves just about every chalice problem, except for chalice@2...Here's what i think would be the advantages:
You get the consistency of the flash kill by having 8 creatures to flash, and still merchant scrolls to fetch flash.
You can still hardcast the rector
Storming out with bargain on the table really shouldn't be a problem...just remember not to try and go off this turn if you're not sure you can make it.

It also adds the ability to get "long-style" hands with rituals, will and tendrils.

But still, haven't tested it

/Zeus

Edit: Just realized that it actually kinda solves chalice@2 aswell, just ritual the rector out!

[Iaak]

@Iaak: I think the idea of a transformational sideboard is always interesting with a deck that's winning a very very high percentage of game 1's.  the problem in this case is that the transformation seems to run up against the exact same hate as the original deck.  people are going to hate flash with, among other things, graveyard hate.  playing reanimator combo to get around graveyard hate seems silly.

Hulking for cephalid + nomads gives you the ability to search for a further 3cc worth of creatures. The main advantage of the side is in the stern proctor, it bounces crypt+planar void (search for it when hulk goes to graveyard) and can be hardcast to bounce leyline or colosus/any artifact. If you're worried about extirpate then you can also run mesmeric fiend. The advantage over the sliver kill is that it doesn't lose to your opponent having critters. It also gives your opponent a false sense of security when they have crypt out. Yes, it sees the same hate, but has the answers, hence the unusual siding in reanimate to deal with graveyard hate.

[Jo84]

... stern proctor, it bounces crypt+planar void (search for it when hulk goes to graveyard) and can be hardcast to bounce leyline or colosus/any artifact. If you're worried about extirpate then you can also run mesmeric fiend. The advantage over the sliver kill is that it doesn't lose to your opponent having critters. It also gives your opponent a false sense of security when they have crypt out. Yes, it sees the same hate, but has the answers, hence the unusual siding in reanimate to deal with graveyard hate.

This may only work against Tormod's Crypt which isn´t strong at all, if you side in the Sliver kill. You can´t tutor him up, so I think it´s a bad way to deal with the hate with a toolbox you try to fetch with Hulk, cause that´s what the hate cards tries to avoid. So all this solutions have better pendants, i.e. Chain of Vapor (get it via Scroll), Duress (> Mesmeric Fiend) and so on.

Sliver Kill seems bad if your opponent has 3 or more critters, but if you can wait, try to find bounce and go for victory. It´s better to go around many hate cards with this kill und side-in solutions that you can find more easily than just via Hulk.

[Purple Hat]

Sliver Kill seems bad, if your opponent has 3 or more critters, but if you can wait, try to find bounce and go for victory. It´s better to go around many hate cards with this kill und side-in solutions that you can find more easily than just via Hulk.

when does your opponent ever have 3 creatures by the end of turn 2?  I mean I guess it happens but unless they go for empty the warrens I don't see that comming up much.

[Jo84]

Yes, and therefore the kill seems to be the second best way to deal with your opponent. I just wanted to state, that only such very unlikely scenarios with so many critters hinder you from winning.

[LotusHead]

I figure here was the best place to post this, but in the latest Blue Bell tourney, which I believe had a lot of GAT and Flash in the top 8, Flash came in first out of 38 people.

Chris Materewicz (Hulk Flash) 1st
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Elvish Spirit Guide

A lot of talk has been made about Flash going to the Sliver Plan maindeck to hate out the graveyard hate that everyone packs.

I sleaved this up to replace my obsolete Gifts dec for the gauntlet, and got a 2nd turn kill with double force back up. Sweet
Then I had to mulligan like the next five hands due to a lack of mana.  Then I counted the mana.

17 mana sources? Wow! I know the deck has a lot of free spells (and 1U for the win!), but 17 just seems uncomfortably low. But it took first. Anyone else nervous about the low mana sources?

With the proper build, can Hulk Flash really get away with this kind of mana base?

[ErkBek]

With the proper build, can Hulk Flash really get away with this kind of mana base?

I've been running the patented Becker manabase with great success.

20    Mana
2     Usea
2     Trop
1     Island
7     Fetches
4     Mox
1     Mana Crypt
1     Black Lotus
1     Lotus Petal
1     ESG

I've also got 3 Green Pacts that can double as an off color Mox. My build runs Blue Pact x4 in the Main and Duress finds its way in and out of the SB. My SB also runs 4 Massacre and 4 Reverent Silence which the heavy fetchland manabase helps set up.

Question for Flash players. I've seen a couple builds that run 3 Hulks and 4 Green Pacts, I understand the reasoning behind it, since extra pacts can find mana, but I feel safer just drawing Hulk then Pacting it up because if you have double flash in hand you can afford for Flash #1 to get countered and still win the next turn. You also don't have to worry about Chalice at 0 as much. The last reason I like 4 Hulk better is post board I'd usually board down to 1 green pact b/c games tend to go a little longer and I don't like the risk of playing pact as much. So should you be running more green pacts than hulk? Do you find yourself boarding out Green Pacts down to 1?

EDIT: -1 Mox, +1 Mana crypt b/c I forgot the first time.

[Implacable]

@ Kobefan: I absolutely cannot see playing more Pacts than Hulks.  I understand that they are more flexible, but many games are won after a Flash is countered, and also having to Summon up your Hulk makes that impossible.  In regard to your second question, I often board down to 2 Summoner's Pact and board out my ESG when I'm on the draw (i.e., every Game 2).  I do this because you must be less aggressive in Game 2 (in order to answer the inevitable post-board hate, whatever it may be), and Pacts do not play well in that gameplan.

@ LotusHead: My manabase differs a bit from that of Kobefan.  I'm running the following:

3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Moxen (no Pearl)
1 Black Lotus
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt

The Mana Crypt is much better than Mox Pearl; I see no reason to run the latter, as Crypt fuels the Turn 2 Scroll -> Flash play that is one of your principle tactics.  I run 2 Islands because my metagame is filled with Wastes and Blood Moons (!) that make a nonbasic/fetch-loving deck sad.  I'm also running 4 Summoner's Pact now, so Pact -> ESG for your second mana is a common play now.  17 Mana would make me extremely uncomfortable; you lose to your own deck too much. 

[LotusHead]

I'm also running 4 Summoner's Pact now, so Pact -> ESG for your second mana is a common play now. 

It totally did not click until now that Green pact gets ESG for the win, not just hulk. Thanks for the explanations.

[Implacable]

It getting mana came up several time for the game-win in my last tournament.  I would assume that at Eudemonia today Flash will be a factor, like it was last time, so expect to see Elves getting sacrificed for mana quite a lot (I'm considering moving up to 2 ESGs).

[Will]

Guys I am currently playing the sliver kill and a seemingly flawed/bad decklist.  I think the sliver kill is just as good as the karmic guide-> kiki-jiki kill.  While the sliver kill provides 1 more card it gives you a way around tormod's crypt.  Anyways, here is my list:
4 underground sea
4 polluted delta
1 tropical island
2 island

5 moxen
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 ancestral recall
4 flash
4 hulk
5 slivers
1 ESG
4 summoner's pact
4 pact of negation
4 force of will
2 misdirection
1 chain of vapor
1 mystical tutor
4 merchant scroll
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal
1 demonic tutor
4 brainstorm

My sideboard is up in the air with 3-4 reverent silences as the only card that is definately in my sideboard.  Any comments or critique on my list would be appreciated. 

[Purple Hat]

you probably want massacres in the board, playing 5 moxen is probably a mistake, mana crypt is definately better than at least one of the off color ones  in my opinion duress is better than misd in this deck and maybe better than the 4th pact of negation.

[Aardshark]

Your list is pretty standard so there's not much to critque.  I agree with Purple Hat that duress > misdirection -- however, consensus seems to be to play two (maybe its the right call with merchant scrolls abounding).

I also think 4 summoner's pacts is a little high. I play 2-3 (note that for uu1, merchant scroll --> mystical -->summoner's pact can find hulk).  You don't want to be flooded with Hulks or wrecked by chalice@0.  I'd also try to find room for 1 more mana source (a second trop or a volcanic, depending on your sb), but maybe that's just me.

The real tech is in the (transformational?) sideboard.

[Will]

Thanks guys for the help, I had taken a somewhat popular list that top 8d in the last recent tourney for my area (philly) and decided to try it out.  I do agree and will promptly cut mox pearl for mana crypt and then cut a summoner's pact for a tropical island most likely.  So the transformational sideboard is cut flashes and hulks for some good creature and other stuff? I am most likely adding massacre so I currently have 4 reverent silences 4 massacre and 7 open slots. 

[Implacable]

Thanks guys for the help, I had taken a somewhat popular list that top 8d in the last recent tourney for my area (philly) and decided to try it out.  I do agree and will promptly cut mox pearl for mana crypt and then cut a summoner's pact for a tropical island most likely.  So the transformational sideboard is cut flashes and hulks for some good creature and other stuff? I am most likely adding massacre so I currently have 4 reverent silences 4 massacre and 7 open slots. 

Here are the different sideboards that I am testing:

The Answer:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Reverent Silence
3 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Rebuild

This is the sideboard that I used for our recent Power tournament, and it works well.  Obviously, it seeks to do what a sideboard traditionally does; to address specific cards in individual matchups.  Leyline comes in against Flash (sometimes) and Ichorid; Silence against aggro w/ Leyline; Massacre against Fish or Bomberman; Chain against Stax or control w/ Leyline; Rebuild against Stax.  I am most comfortable with this sideboard, because it lets you play Game 1 over again, but with better disruption/protection.

Optimus Prime:

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Oath of Druids
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Razia, Boros Archangel

This sideboard (Optimus Prime = Transformer) switches the entire gameplan of the deck.  You board out the Summoner's Pacts, Flashes, Slivers, and 2 of your Hulks for the 15-card package against any and all Fish decks, which invalidates their hate and/or has huge strategic superiority to their entire game.  The downside of this package is that it is worthless against control; I prefer playing Flash than Oath against both Bomberman and Slaver.

Compromise:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Massacre
1 Rebuild

This is the midrange sideboard which is much more effective against any control deck.  Dark Confidants add another must-counter threat to your deck (if resolved, a Confidant just wins it for you) and Tarmogoyfs come in against both Fish and Control to give you a quick beat-down strategy.  The Chains serve their usual purpose, and Massacres are again your anti-Fish tech.  It should be noted that, without Silence and Leyline, this sideboard is weaker in the mirror.

To answer your specific question, Magzoo, the transformational creature boards (where Tarmogoyfs or Dryads are added) do not assume that you take out your combo.  Instead, you remove the Pacts (both Summoner's and Negation) that aren't very good in the long game.  At least, that's what I do.

[islanderboi10]

Implacable, don't your sideboards get shut down by chalice @ 2?

I really like the man plan sideboard.  Against control, you must really play for the long game. Confidant and Goyf are pretty good in the long game. Confidant supplying you with cards, and Goyf getting big.

[Implacable]

Chain + Rebuild = The best chance any Flash player has against Chalice@2.  Board 1 gives 5 answers post-board to Chalice@2, and Board 3 gives 4.  Board 2, of course, is hosed by it, but Board 2 is a bad choice anyway if the metagame has tons of Shops.

Yeah, the man-plan gives you a really good game against the few control decks whose counterwalls are sometimes impregnable (read: Phid, which is increasing its presence in the metagame due to Kowal's performance).  Decks with REBs, Drains, Forces, and MisDs can handle fast starts, but often can't handle the men; if they bring in creature hate Game 3, then it simply becomes the guessing game of which deck you board into that Craig Jones talked about at GP: Colombus, where similar transformational sideboards abounded.

[Moxlotus]

Why would you have Blessing in the board?  Isn't one of the reasons to board into Oath to get around Leyline?

I was testing a transformational and ran 4 oath, 4 orchard, 3 large dude, Imperial Seal, and Chain of Vapors 2-4.  Chains were there for general utility so even if you didn't board into Oath your deck didn't completely lose to hate postboard.  The problem with the transformational I found is that it doesn't help you win game if really.  With the change, you are going to win game 2 a large percentage of the time.  People are stuck with dead hate cards or they kept amazing anti-flash hands but terrible anti-oath hands.  But for game 3 it is The Princess Bride.  And some of the hate for decks hit BOTH plans--like Chalice@2 or StP or Echoing Truth.

[Implacable]

1) Because Flash wins Game 1 a large portion of the time, having a favorable percentage in Game 2 by transforming entirely greatly limits the amount of Game 3s.

2) I would never board into an Oath deck against Stax (so Chalice@2 doesn't matter any more than it usually does) and while it's true that StP and ET hit both Flash and Oath, StP is rarely used and ET is a 1-of 99% of the time.