UBW Fish Deck Idea

[the boogie man]

Since there aren't any  ubw fish decks in this forum, I guess I'll start one. I also think that this is different than the deadfish thread as well. If moderators think that these are too close in idea, then a merge may be necessary.

I have been working on this deck for a while, but philosophy and minor testing only takes the deck so far. first, here is the decklist:

4 confidant
4 meddling mage
3 grunt
2 mindcensor

4 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
3 underground sea
3 tundra
3 wasteland
1 strip mine
2 island
3 on-color mox
1 lotus

3 street wraith
3 brainstorm
1 vamp
1 d-tutor
1 ancestral
1 time walk

4 force of will
4 chalice
3 duress
3 stifle
1 echoing truth
1 extirpate

side:
2-3 null rod
4 leyline
1 swords to plowshares
2-3 jitte
3 kataki
1 plains

I have really been thinking of switching the number of grunts and avens, but I am not sure which is more important atm. also, I have been thinking of adding a couple of null rods to the main. also, would adding dazes to the main be worth it? they allow you to cast threats and protect yourself a little.

the maindeck chalices, mages, forces, duress, stifle, and waste effects help lots against combo, and he null rods and maybe some other things out of the side help too.

I really like the avens, as they are a beating against a lot of deck, and they are evasive as well, which helps a lot. My only worry is that they would come down too slow. Has this been an issue with anyone else?

With ichorid, I don't think that extirpate will do what I needit to do, even game 1. Should this be replaced with more bounce, crypt, or something else? In this match, though, the grunts do help.

Lastly, I know it seems weird to be running so much acceleration and a full compliment of chalices, but I think that the format is too fast for decks that can't have 3 mana on turn two a good amount of the time. even if i were to add additional null rods into the main, I think that the moxen would stay, strictly because they con power out null rods faster, if nothing else.

Any help would be appreciated.

[wethepeople]

I myself would cut that random Extirpate for the fourth Duress. Duress is very strong right now, and a random Extirpate will not be able to consistently improve your game.

After playing UGb Threshold in Legacy, I have learned that Dark Confidant and Street Wraith are terrible together. The idea of using Wraith may seem cool, because it essentially allows you to run a 56-card list, but when flipping it via Confi, and then proceeding to discard it for the following will add up to -7 life. I understand that I shouldn't be complaining about life-loss, but 7 life is a bit extreme. Considering that Dark Confidant is one of the best creatures that Fish has to offer, I would suggest that Wraith gets the cut.

In most UWb builds that I have played in the past, four Moxen has been great. It allows you to cast turn 1 Confidants, turn 2 Mindsensors, et cetera, which is one of the best plays that Fish can pump out in the first turn or so.

[Damos2001]

I really like the mindsensor also. And run 4x in my B/W deck. I agree that you need to be abal to get him in to play fast though. So I have been thinking about either off color moxen or else maybe a few Ancient Tomb's. I think tomb is nice because it not only helps cast aven fast but also helps with chalice too. Though I think for a deck like this to want tomb you need at least 1 more aven in the deck and maybe null rod too. As turn 1 null rod seems nice.

But if you do not like the tomb idea I really think Lotus Petal maybe worth thinking about. As if you think about it this deck look to want 3 mana only once in the early game. Sacking a petal for mindsensor turn 2 (Or 1 with luck) seems good. So what if the next turn you only have 2 mana nothing else in the deck cost more then 2 mana to play.

Just a few ideas. Hope it helps some.

[hauntedechos]

More Fish talk yay!

First off, I really like the attention everyone is giving Fish.  It shows the resolve to keep the "people" alive in the fight against "the oppressors"...ok I probly went too far with that but...whatever.

-2 Stifle
+1 Duress
+1Extirpate

-1Wraith (honestly I'd cut them totally, it's Fish after all and your taking hits from Bob already, which makes combo's job easier by 1 spell per 2life lost needed to resolve when going off)
+1Brainstorm

You have 13 creatures, I wouldn't like to dip below 15 but with 14 I've still managed.  You have no 1 drop creatures, I've been told that I shuld cut the Lions for Children to combat Combo.  Aven might be too slow to combat Combo, I'm fiddling with the idea of Children, without losing the 1drop 2beater clock.  Stifle stall tricks aren't at a premium right now, the proactive approach of Duress would be really strong.  Also with the addition of Pact of Negation, I'd even rather have x4 Daze Main to keep up with the speed of it all.

stuffing everything Fish needs into 41 cards (assuming 2moxen a lotus and 19 lands is where you stand) is a daunting task, and I don't think even with the SB Fish can stuff everything it needs into that.  When considering my options I never forget the foundations of Fish...Disrupt the manabase/accelerants for early tempo advantage, drop a fast clock and keep the pressure on with as many "free" spells as possible that are still viable in Vintage.  Once we stray from that, we're doomed.

I like that you've added the speed of Chalice for the first turn, on the play moxen/lotus "off" button, however, Null Rod cannot be left in the SB.  I think that to bolster the Mana denial/accelerant theme, we need to find a possible configuration that allows null and Chalice main (Kataki still holds a place in my heart, with it's relationship to NullRod.)

I like the inclusion of 2 B tutors, allowing flexibility to fetch what the game state needs.  Again with the speed of the meta, we hope to see at least one of them turn 2 (3 is usually to late, depending on how you've fend them off.)

I'd like to see Daze back in your list, if there is one thing that I've learned (thank you Dave), Daze is your best friend turns 1&2.  And now that Pact of Negation is in Combos grips, Daze is at a premium.  It's  not as solid as Combo's game plan utilizing Pact combined with thier speed to clear the way, but it's the cheapest counter we have that is still effective.

Echoing truth might be better as a Trickbind here.  Same casting cost, but with split second, it might have a better role.

3Deltas
3strands
3Seas
3tundras
1 of each basic is what I'd like as my mana base, you need to have the colour's you need at turn0(ie before you've even though about what your about to do)
consider: Delta/flooded grabbing sea, Duress *Force*, you Daze on the play turn 1. On the draw the play becomes drasticly different.

I like Confidant (yes I see the wisdom Phillip-goGWS) and will be tinkering around with him as well.  It was posted before that Children have the potential to work well with Bob, nullifying a FoW flip (and potentially dropping an ichorid Bridge in the process, though you would have done that as soon as they resovled one)

Plows are pretty much going the way of ManaDrains, aside from Welder what else is there?  before you say DSC, consider who is really running the Tin Man anyways, and Oath (on it's dying bed it seems) will side in SSS anyways.

Extirpate, while awesome utility, is something that needs multiples (in which case you're playing a baseline strategy with it) or stays in the side for Ichorid (waste bazaars, ichorid etc.)

All in all, I like the fact you're thinking post FS and the future of Fish.  Clearly Fish needs to be 3c, which will be challenging and taxing on slots and manabase.  I think that any Fish list that plans on being U/Wx, needs to adopt the initial U/W skeleton and then try and tweak some slots that are lack lustre.  We're thinking cards that pull double/triple duty (meaning they are viable against multiple decks) and then tweaking thier numbers based on the players meta and potency.  U/W houses the best utility creatures(Bob being debatable vs. Grunt)  and the quickest clock.  while there will be dominant decks in the meta, your not going to get there unless you've beaten the smaller Fish(a heh heh heh *sigh* n/m) to get there.

cheers
Mike
PMs welcome as well as the usual flames that ensue!

[the boogie man]

Heres some changes that I have decided to make:

-1 extirpate
-2 wraith

+1 echoing truth/stp
+1 children
+1 aven

and perhaps daze.

I really like the echoing truth, because it deals with the ever present tokens issue, which really helps.

[TheDeadMan]

One of the strongest cards in this particular type of fish deck in my experience is cutpurse. It allows solid draw forces them to discard which makes extrapte much more powerful if you chose to run it. Hopefully in the next few days ELD will have the deck lists up from his last event and you can see ym current build for reference, hope this helps.

[Korhil]

An unpowered fish that we built for a friend to run ended up looking as such:

2 Island
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 StripMine
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Yixlid Jailer

4 Brainstorm
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Hide/Seek
4 Stifle
1 Vampiric Tutor

While only unpowered, some things about the deck still impressed me.
My testing found this list was capable of going 50% vs MD Gifts.

The mana base proved to be fine. The total mana count was higher to support the 5th strip effect and the red to be able to use the 'Hide' effect of Hide/Seek.

4 Stifles are impressive, it's not a card I'd want to run less of. There are always targets for it. It also pitches to FOW as an additional benefit

Including Hide/Seek and pushing the deck into a 4th Colour proved successful.
On the play, if you get a Chalice + Duress, or Chalice + Stifle fetchland start, dropping either a Jailer or casting Seek vs Gifts on T2 is quite strong. The Jailer disables Recoup and can create problems for a Gifts player when Chalice is on the board already, they tend to need to find 2 bounce effects to enable a full tendrills kill. And in the mean time it makes their Gifts piles less powerful. The Jailer tends to buy you an extra turn when Chalice is also on the board.
Some Gifts players are sticking with an 11/11 given the general move to Echoing Truth over spells like Wipe Away in many decks now, Seeking him makes the Tendrills kill require a much bigger storm, again, buying you time to win with men.

Seek can be highly effective vs many Long builds if a Chalice for 0 has been resolved.

Jaliers other obvious good point is it's strength vs Ichorid.
I think Jailers better costing makes him a better choice than the Aven.

Being Unpowered, the new Ichorid was trashing this too quickly barring a T1 Stifle Bazzar T2 Jailer play in game 1.
Having the ability to play T1 Jailers off moxen along with Laylines, the Ichorid matchup should become very playable for Fish.

Perhaps some of these finding were of interest.

[the boogie man]

I will definitely run a couple jailers in the side, but I think that aven is better maindeck. he is an instant, and he really meses up a lot of decks pretty bad. Anything with a fetchland manabase, a lot of tutors, or gifts are really hurt by this, and the problems are compounded if multiple situations are present, and they usually are.