[Premium Article] Eternal Potpouri - Doomsday

[policehq]

I've found a lot of problems with the current mana-base trying to abuse 4 Gush, and at the same time, before the B/R announcement, Wasteland was seen in pretty low numbers.

Is it safe to play things like Watery Grave or a heavier (7+) fetchland base (a la Eric Becker for Long) to fuel Gush? Would Fastbond be needed in the deck, or is the strength of Doomsday + Gush sufficient?

EDIT: I did not think of the damage between Doomsday and Watery Grave (especially alongside Fastbond) accumulating so highly before typing this post.

What changes could be made to the mana-base to allow for the Doomsday+Gush combination more frequently?

-hq

[desolutionist]

I've found a lot of problems with the current mana-base trying to abuse 4 Gush, and at the same time, before the B/R announcement, Wasteland was seen in pretty low numbers.

Gush is already really good against Wastelands.  I don't think you need any basics if you're playing four Gushes.
 
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

[BreathWeapon]

I've found a lot of problems with the current mana-base trying to abuse 4 Gush, and at the same time, before the B/R announcement, Wasteland was seen in pretty low numbers.

Gush is already really good against Wastelands.  I don't think you need any basics if you're playing four Gushes.
 
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

I'm not certain what the status of Wasteland is in a Gush environment, but if Wasteland is around, I'd go with at least one Island to support Brainstorm into another land with out the fear of having the first land Wastelanded. Swamp for Duress seems awful, because it's setting back the fundamental turn for Gush either way.

Is it just me, or is Lim Dul's Vault + Gush just insane? It's like getting a free Mox Sapphire/Jet, free +2 cards, free +1 storm, padding the hand with chaff for a stack with Brainstorm(s) and tutoring for two cards at the same time for one card at instant speed that pitches to Force of Will and Unmask. I think it's better than Demonic Tutor and the Mirage Tutors, albeit a little slower, it's way more resilient.

[diopter]

I've found a lot of problems with the current mana-base trying to abuse 4 Gush, and at the same time, before the B/R announcement, Wasteland was seen in pretty low numbers.

Gush is already really good against Wastelands.  I don't think you need any basics if you're playing four Gushes.
 
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

I'm not certain what the status of Wasteland is in a Gush environment, but if Wasteland is around, I'd go with at least one Island to support Brainstorm into another land with out the fear of having the first land Wastelanded. Swamp for Duress seems awful, because it's setting back the fundamental turn for Gush either way.

Is it just me, or is Lim Dul's Vault + Gush just insane? It's like getting a free Mox Sapphire/Jet, free +2 cards, free +1 storm, padding the hand with chaff for a stack with Brainstorm(s) and tutoring for two cards at the same time for one card at instant speed that pitches to Force of Will and Unmask. I think it's better than Demonic Tutor and the Mirage Tutors, albeit a little slower, it's way more resilient.

LDV in a separate deck would probably be good, however in Doomsday the issue I see is you are going to set yourself up with so many card-disadvantage tutors (I consider Dday the ultimate CDA tutor) that you might not have enough resources to protect whatever you've tutored for, or even cast what you've tutored for. With that many CDA tutors, I don't think 4x Gush and 1x Ancestral Recall would be enough - you'd have to run something like Night's Whisper too.

[PhilipJFry]

Note: Thats Only 4 Cards...You can do that with DoomsDay

I am not the king of rulings or anything like that, but I just looked up Doomsday in Gatherer for an unrelated reason, and the rulings there are pretty clear you have to find 5 cards unless you don't have them.  The Oracle wording on Doomsday doesn't allow you to just choose to find 4.  If I have misread something, I apologize if I am mistaken.

[diopter]

Note: Thats Only 4 Cards...You can do that with DoomsDay

I am not the king of rulings or anything like that, but I just looked up Doomsday in Gatherer for an unrelated reason, and the rulings there are pretty clear you have to find 5 cards unless you don't have them.  The Oracle wording on Doomsday doesn't allow you to just choose to find 4.  If I have misread something, I apologize if I am mistaken.

The stack mentioned functions just as well with 5 cards:

Gush
Black Lotus
Desire
R&D
Tendrils

[Sam101]

Oops, my mistake on the ruling.

Dipopter's pile works, or:

Street Wraith
Gush
Black Lotus
Desire
R&D

Works as well.

Sam

[BreathWeapon]

I've found a lot of problems with the current mana-base trying to abuse 4 Gush, and at the same time, before the B/R announcement, Wasteland was seen in pretty low numbers.

Gush is already really good against Wastelands.  I don't think you need any basics if you're playing four Gushes.
 
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

I'm not certain what the status of Wasteland is in a Gush environment, but if Wasteland is around, I'd go with at least one Island to support Brainstorm into another land with out the fear of having the first land Wastelanded. Swamp for Duress seems awful, because it's setting back the fundamental turn for Gush either way.

Is it just me, or is Lim Dul's Vault + Gush just insane? It's like getting a free Mox Sapphire/Jet, free +2 cards, free +1 storm, padding the hand with chaff for a stack with Brainstorm(s) and tutoring for two cards at the same time for one card at instant speed that pitches to Force of Will and Unmask. I think it's better than Demonic Tutor and the Mirage Tutors, albeit a little slower, it's way more resilient.

LDV in a separate deck would probably be good, however in Doomsday the issue I see is you are going to set yourself up with so many card-disadvantage tutors (I consider Dday the ultimate CDA tutor) that you might not have enough resources to protect whatever you've tutored for, or even cast what you've tutored for. With that many CDA tutors, I don't think 4x Gush and 1x Ancestral Recall would be enough - you'd have to run something like Night's Whisper too.

Well, I figure it's either LDV OR Demonic/Vamp/Seal/Mystical and not all of them together.

[mongrel12]

Here's a build of post-restricting gush doomsday I've been working on. I feel its much better than a version with exploration, and it only has an extremely minor green splash for Fastbond (which is nuts with gush). I've cut Duress and Unmask from the maindeck for Gushes, Fastbond and Misdirection. This is justified by a) the fact that you run more blue cards, and b) the fact that you are almost certainly going to want to fetch out an island turn one as opposed to a swamp. I've relegated the Duress to the board for the combo/non wasteland control matchups.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
    3 Flooded Strand
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Island

// Creatures
    4 Street Wraith

// Spells
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Dark Ritual
    2 Cabal Ritual
    4 Doomsday
    1 Necropotence
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Chain of Vapor
    4 Gush
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Mystical Tutor
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Research/Development
    2 Misdirection
    1 Pact of Negation
    1 Fastbond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Research/Development
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Meta Slot

[Malhavoc]

I'm trying to figure out a good doomsday post-gush list, but I'm running in a fundamental problem: which sort of protections would be better. Duress and Unmasks are much more useful than FoW in a deck that NEEDS to know if it can go off or not (sometimes you could just have a FoW and lose to double counter); however playing T1 without FoW scares me a bit, particularly in a metagame which is getting faster and faster with decks like Flash. So, I would opt for using Duress and Unmask, but that puts a big question on the manabase: having a swamp for a first turn duress would delay gush, but on the other hand fetching Underground would expose us to wasteland. Sure, we could try to go with just a brainstorm turn one and trying doing duress->doomsday->gush turn two, but that requires a bit too much B mana anyway.. maybe could it be worth to put back the old Chromatic spheres to filter mana?

[yatagirlofchaos]

I don't see a problem with Fow and Duress + Unmask like in the original list. Actually, I have gone back up to 12 pieces on MD disruption. Here's my list.

[4] Doomsday
[1] Necropotence
[1] Yawgmoth's Will

[4] Brainstorm
[4] Gush
[1] Ancestral Recall

[1] Demonic Tutor
[1] Imperial Seal
[1] Vampiric Tutor
[1] Mystical Tutor

[4] Force of Will
[4] Duress
[4] Unmask

[1] Echoing Truth

[1] Mind's Desire
[1] Research // Development
[1] Tendrils of Agony

[1] Time Walk

[1] Black Lotus
[1] Mox Sapphire
[1] Mox Jet
[1] Lotus Petal
[1] Lion's Eye Diamond

[4] Dark Ritual
[2] Cabal Ritual

[4] Polluted Delta
[2] Flooded Strand
[4] Underground Sea
[3] Island

It seems to be working well so far. I cut CoV for Echoing Truth because this deck needs an answer to Chalice at 1. I also cut the basic Swamp for another U-Sea for Gush. I cut all the Street Wraith since I find Gush to almost strictly better, and Street Wraith is unneeded. I like this deck and may pick it up for my T1 deck of choice. I am thinking of cutting Time Walk and maybe LED, since they have been sub-par so far. As far as the fetchland count goes, there has only been one time where having a fetchland after Doomsday has slowed me down a turn.

[Matt-216]

Well, i've been playing a version of Doomsday with 4 Gushes and then i came here and looked at what was posted...

I will not comment on the already posted stuff because...it would be falming...

However, I would like everyone of you who has been testing the deck to consider this: Doomsday runs ONE gush, and personally i wouldn't go above one with any of the lists out there. When is the last time you've used gush to JUST draw 2 cards in Doomday? I myself did it, maybe 3 times(and won only once) since the original version of DD came out with BoD. It's not that there are not enough Gush in the deck, it's just that you want to win, well most of the time anyway, and that gambling on 2 cards usually isn't worth it.

I was running a version with Wraiths+4 Gushes...and then i went down to 3 Gushes and then 2. I'm even thinking of cutting it for one main reason: Getting 2 lands on the board with a combo deck because you want to bounce them to draw 2 cards... please, adapt the rest of the deck. What happens if on turn two you gush into: DD/Necropotence...and then you proceed to dig up with Brainstorm to find...nothing. You've just set yourself back 2 turns and I'm not talking about the Brainstorm, I'm talking about your non-existant mana base.

When playing Gush in Doomsday, people have to consider the fact that half the time, the deck is comboing with 1-2 lands out. Gush is broken and WILL be broken but this deck might simply not be it...at least not the way it is.

Look at it this way, if you cut the wraith for the Gushes what you're basically doing is: trading 1 cards, -3 life for -2 lands, +2 cards.



My opinion is simple: Gush is gonna be a choice in the deck (if the deck sees much tournement play that is) and that choice will be determined by the player. Now, I know that these are raw versions of Gush+DD decks but do you guys have any other modifications to the deck you were thinking about doing? Because I'd like to run Gush, just not like this...

[Necrologia]

Matt, I think you're missing the purpose of Gush in Doomsday. It's not used as a draw engine, it's used along with Street Wraith to win immediately after casting Doomsday. Casting Doomsday and passing the turn is one of the most stressful plays ever. It's impossible to take everything into account, and giving your opponent an extra turn will come back to bite you. Constantly.

With as many as 8 free draw spells it becomes much easier to win on the spot. Old Doomsday lists ran Chromatic Sphere for that purpose. Gush and Street Wraith blow the poor old star out of the water.

[ACME_Myst]

After the restriction of Gifts, I'm considering to pick up Doomsday as my deck of choice.
I've been testing a lot over the last few days, and some things have come up. First, I'll
give you my list:

4 Doomsday
1 Necropotence

4 Force of Will
2 Duress
3 Unmask
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Gush
1 Street Wraith
1 Time Walk

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Research/Development
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind's Desire

3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Swamp

I'll explain some, maybe weird, card choices:

- Singleton Street Wraith. I like it just to give me a bit more versatility when making Doomsday piles. Gush is better as a 'win now' enabler, so I only run 1 of these.

- 4 Leyline. I feel this is great disruption right now, so good even that I want to run them maindeck. They prevent your opponent from simply blowing you out of the water. Extra's pitch to Unmask, so it's all good.

Now, for some cards I'm feeling rather 'meh..' about:

- Necropotence. I know that it's actually too good to cut, especially in a deck running 6 Rituals, but I feel it's just not that good in here. It's been very rare that I just win the turn after casting Necro. What are other people's opinions about this?

- Time Walk. Sure, it's the best cantrip ever printed, but it's just sooo slow. Ideally, I guess you would want something like, turn 1 brainstorm, turn 2 duress, ritual->doomsday, gush, win. With Time Walk, you either need more accelaration, or you need to wait another turn, which kind of beats the point. I feel Walk is just a cantrip in this deck, and free draws > 1U draws.

- Duress. Again, it's a great card, but I feel like outtapping a lot with this deck, so Unmask seems like better disruption, since it's more aggressive by nature.

- Leyline of the Void. I haven't been disapointed by it yet, but it's disruption that doesn't prevent your opponent from disrupting you, it just prevents them from winning the game. Maybe Misdirection's would be better in these slots, since they also up the blue count. Opinions?

[spindrift]

Necropotence is nuts!

If you have a necro out you can win w/o doomsday. What is more, if you use necro to draw into your doomsday, chances are you will have a hand full of unmask and FoW, not to mention a gush or a street. With neco, you almost gurantee that you are going to go off on the same turn that you cast Doomsday without any effective responce from your opponent!

If you get Necro and a ritual on your first turn, your chances of winning on second turn just skyrockets. I would definatley not cut Necropotence.

[ACME_Myst]

Yes, I understand that this is the plan with Necro. My point was, that it just doesn't happen that often.

Maybe I'm just having a stroke of bad luck or something though..

On another note, did anybody figure out the pile yet for
Brainstorm + U + 1 card in hand?
I can't seem to get a pile that needs less than 5 storm before brainstorming..

[EDIT] Ok, so it's possible if you run Twister.
Is this situation, along with it's general usefulness, worth it's inclusion?

[zeus-online]

- Necropotence. I know that it's actually too good to cut, especially in a deck running 6 Rituals, but I feel it's just not that good in here. It's been very rare that I just win the turn after casting Necro. What are other people's opinions about this?

You stated that you didn't win the turn after you necro'ed...but did you win the game? That's what counts, not when or how you win.

/Zeus

[ACME_Myst]

@zeus:
Good point. I just did some more goldfishes, putting Necro in my hand each time, and I agree that it shouldn't be cut.

Another question:
Is there any way to win, if you have 0 cards in hand and only 1 sea on the board? I can only figure out this one, but it requires
Twister, and you have to pass the turn 2 times:

Ancestral
Lotus
Sapphire
R&D
Twister

Are there any better options?

[mistervader]

@zeus:
Good point. I just did some more goldfishes, putting Necro in my hand each time, and I agree that it shouldn't be cut.

Another question:
Is there any way to win, if you have 0 cards in hand and only 1 sea on the board? I can only figure out this one, but it requires
Twister, and you have to pass the turn 2 times:

Ancestral
Lotus
Sapphire
R&D
Twister

Are there any better options?

You die with Twister, unless my math is off.

5 cards from Doomsday, + Doomsday itself = 6 cards.

You really have no option here if you only have 1 land and 0 hand, unless you wait 3 turns with this stack:

Brainstorm
Lotus
Ritual
Desire
R/D

[ACME_Myst]

Your math is off:

Draw Ancestral, pass, EOT play it
Draw Twister

1) Sapphire (U)
2) lotus, crack for GGG (UGGG)
3) R&D for Will, Tendrils, LED (UG)
4) Twister, drawing: Doomsday, Lotus, LED, R&D, Ancestral, Will, Tendrils
5) Lotus, crack for BBB
6) LED
7) Will, response crack LED for BBB
8) Replay lotus, crack
9) Replay LED, crack
10) replay Tendrils

[Jo84]

I don´t like this stack, cause you have to consider the cards in your hand, that will be shuffled too and that your opponent gets a new hand with disruption to stop your combo!

[ACME_Myst]

The point was coming up with a stack that can win if you have 0 cards in hand, so there won't be anything else that get's shuffled back with Twister.
Also, I'm not saying I like it (for the obvious reasons you mentioned), but it is a turn faster than the stack that mistervader posted. If you have 1 or more cards in hand, his stack is just as fast as mine (assuming none of the cards in hand are manasources).

Then again, I wouldn't be feeling happy anyway if I had only a sea on the board, and just ritual+DD in hand. The point is, what is the best stack in this scenario?

[mistervader]

Your math is off:

Draw Ancestral, pass, EOT play it
Draw Twister

1) Sapphire (U)
2) lotus, crack for GGG (UGGG)
3) R&D for Will, Tendrils, LED (UG)
4) Twister, drawing: Doomsday, Lotus, LED, R&D, Ancestral, Will, Tendrils
5) Lotus, crack for BBB
6) LED
7) Will, response crack LED for BBB
8) Replay lotus, crack
9) Replay LED, crack
10) replay Tendrils

Yegads, you're right. My math was off. I completely missed that R&D. Right now, assuming you can't be countered, this is the best possible pile you can use. Mine's too slow by a turn, but its advantage is it doesn't let your opponent draw something new.

[Jo84]

Stack:
Underground Sea
Gush
Black Lotus
Mind's Desire
R&D

draw Sea, play Sea, next turn

then draw gush, BB in pool, Gush getting Lotus and Desire - Storm 1

Lotus crack for UUU, play Sea for another Mana, play Desire - Storm 2+3

reveal and play R&D... shuffle Tendrils of Agony, Tendrils of Agony into Library Storm 4

play Tendrils of Agony Storm 5

play Tendrils of Agony Storm 6

EDIT: now the stack works as wanted. ^^

[ACME_Myst]

Ok, you win. I can't believe I didn't see that one. I use similiar stacks all the time when you have Gush in hand but just 1 island..

So, everybody agrees that there is no stack that can win the same turn (or actually, next turn)?

[Skadrian]

My calculations may be off, and I dont really have experience with this deck, but when you use the r&d to get sins, r&d and will you only have 2 copies of disire left, what happens when you dont find the sins of the past?

[ACME_Myst]

In that case, you wonder why you didn't simply play R&D for 2x Tendrils,
or, if you don't run the second Tendrils in the sideboard, for Sins + Tendrils.

[Jo84]

you are right, I changed the stack in the end and overlooked this, but two tendrils would be the straightest way to win.

[Skadrian]

the sins + tendrils would only work if there is a tendrils in the graveyard, otherwise there is nothing good enough to target for sins I think. replaying desire doesnt do anything, since only tendrils is in your library, and you would be playing that anyway.

[Jo84]

well, depends on your mana, if you only want to play one spell from your graveyard sins is pretty good, for instance if you want to recycle your mind's desire and your mana is short (if you don´t use LED+Lotus it´s pretty hard to cast Desire a second time and you don´t necessarily want to discard your hand, so that your combo isn´t protected anymore) and I think there are situations that´s the way to victory... you can´t always play double tendrils that easily.