[Premium Article] Eternal Potpouri - Doomsday

[Skadrian]

I was too slow, I repleyed to the post above that said that getting tendrils plus sins would still win

[ACME_Myst]

It does win:

gush into lotus + desire, desire with storm 3:

- reveal R&D
- play it for sins + tendrils (storm 4)
- let the other 2 desire copies resolve
- play tendrils (storm 5)
- play sins -> targetting tendrils
- replay tendrils for free

[Skadrian]

but you cant choose the order, if you hit sins first you dont win

[Jo84]

therefore you target desire with sins and have another R&D shuffled in your library so you can go for Will and Tendrils (play Tendrils, then will, replay mana, play tendrils)

[ACME_Myst]

rtfc much?

Desire removes the cards from you library, and you can play them until end of turn, without paying there mana cost. If Desire would say:

"Shuffle your library.
Then remove the top card of your library from the game.
Play it without paying it's casting cost.

Storm"

Then you would have a point.

[Skadrian]

thanks, no I didnt rtfc enough

[spindrift]

I have a question.

I ran a stack that looks like this:

TOP_
Recall
Lotus
Ritual
Desire
R&D
_Bottom

I had two seas and a Petal and I draw the Recall. I cast Recall. I then Cast lotus and crack it for UUU. I crack the Petal for a B and Ritual for BBB.

I use the six to cast Desire with storm 3.

Reveal the R&D to fetch out Yawgmoth's, R&D, Sins, SpellJack.

I reveal Yawg, Sins, R&D.

Cast Yawg, then Sins on a Desire Storm 7 and remove it from the game. Then I reveal SpellJack.

I cast R&D to fetch Desire,R&D,Tendrils,Tendrils. I then reveal all four with the left over Storm. 

I cast in order Tendrils then another Tendrils. I cast Desire and counter it with SpellJack and I leave it removed from the game with the remaining storm count on the stack. I then Cast R&D to fetch out another R&D, Tendrils, Tendrils and SpellJack.

I reveal all four and cast Tendrils, Tendrils. Next I play the Desire that was removed with the SpellJack and I Spelljack it again leaving the Storm count on the stack.  Finally I cast R&D to Fetch out..... Tendrils, Tendrils, R&D, and Spelljack. It becomes an infinite Sorcery loop with those cards and the Desire removed from the game, right?

My question is this: When I spellJack the Desire it will be removed from game and I can go infinately right? I am not missing anything here am I? 

I only ask because a moderator at a Vintage tournament told me I could not Spelljack the Desire that was removed from game with a previous SpellJack with a second spelljack later in the game. Is this a loop that I can take infinately? In addition, my opponent gained infinite life and I can do this for infinite life loss for the win right?

Thanks,

[diopter]

Regarding R&D-specific sideboard inclusions, and R&D stacks:

Sins of the Past and Spelljack are not good cards at all. Your sideboard should contain, at maximum, 1 R&D and 1 Tendrils. I am even testing without R&D in the board because I find the first R&D for 2x Tendrils is sufficient.

And as for R&D stacks. As mentioned above, R&D into 2x Tendrils is sufficient. There are few situations that can be won by getting Will and co. with R&D that can't be won by getting 2x Tendrils. The only situation I can think of is if Tendrils is in hand. But that's why there's the 2nd Tendrils in the board - so that R&D is sure to be able to access it.

[Jo84]

if we speak about golfishing, double tendrils is sufficient, but there are so many possible stacks in so many possible situations, that sometimes Sins can help you back into the combo.
Everything depends on your cards but further more on the ones on your opponents side.

Anyone an idea how to stack against Stifle?

[Zieby]

I have a question.

I ran a stack that looks like this:

TOP_
Recall
Lotus
Ritual
Desire
R&D
_Bottom

I had two seas and a Petal and I draw the Recall. I cast Recall. I then Cast lotus and crack it for UUU. I crack the Petal for a B and Ritual for BBB.

I use the six to cast Desire with storm 3.

Reveal the R&D to fetch out Yawgmoth's, R&D, Sins, SpellJack.

I reveal Yawg, Sins, R&D.

Cast Yawg, then Sins on a Desire Storm 7 and remove it from the game. Then I reveal SpellJack.

I cast R&D to fetch Desire,R&D,Tendrils,Tendrils. I then reveal all four with the left over Storm. 

I cast in order Tendrils then another Tendrils. I cast Desire and counter it with SpellJack and I leave it removed from the game with the remaining storm count on the stack. I then Cast R&D to fetch out another R&D, Tendrils, Tendrils and SpellJack.

I reveal all four and cast Tendrils, Tendrils. Next I play the Desire that was removed with the SpellJack and I Spelljack it again leaving the Storm count on the stack.  Finally I cast R&D to Fetch out..... Tendrils, Tendrils, R&D, and Spelljack. It becomes an infinite Sorcery loop with those cards and the Desire removed from the game, right?

My question is this: When I spellJack the Desire it will be removed from game and I can go infinately right? I am not missing anything here am I? 

I only ask because a moderator at a Vintage tournament told me I could not Spelljack the Desire that was removed from game with a previous SpellJack with a second spelljack later in the game. Is this a loop that I can take infinately? In addition, my opponent gained infinite life and I can do this for infinite life loss for the win right?

Thanks,

I think that this only will work for a 100% if you have a strom count of 4 when you cast desire. because desire makes you shuffle your library so you never know for sure if the spelljack is the last card in your library to reveal. For the rest i think the loop is correct.

Greetz Zieby

[diopter]

if we speak about golfishing, double tendrils is sufficient, but there are so many possible stacks in so many possible situations, that sometimes Sins can help you back into the combo.
Everything depends on your cards but further more on the ones on your opponents side.

Anyone an idea how to stack against Stifle?

Sins is even more dependent on what your opponent has than Tendrils is, because it is ineffective against any and all forms of gravehard hate.

[Jo84]

with graveyard hate (planar void or leyline) your desire gets removed and you can shuffle it back to your library, so in this case you replace sins of the past with mind's desire.

if you think sins sucks, then will is in such situations even worse.

Let´s say you need to replay Mind's Desire from your graveyard, then you have two options:

shuffle Will into your library, replay your mana, replay desire

but what if you payed it with an dark ritual and a black lotus with no mana left?

=> shuffle Sins of the Past into your library and target Desire

both ways remove the Desire from the game so you might reshuffle it with R&D into your lib, but Will depends on LED+Lotus, Sin doesn´t, but creates smaller storm.

[someone_unimportan]

Any anti-stifle stacks I can think of require lots of mana and other resources. For Example, if you have Gush and 2 other cards in hand:

Top
Brainstorm
Lotus
Pact
Desire
RnD
Bottom
float 2: Gush -> Bstorm+Lotus, crack for UUU and Brainstorm (UUAA) put back RnD,X, replay a land and tap it and one other (UUAAAA) Desire for 4 (Pacting a stifle) reveal X, RnD, RnD for Tendrils x2, kill.

With Street Wraith:
Top
Ancestral
Lotus
Pact of Negation
Desire
RnD
Bottom

Cycle into Ancestral-> U for Ancestral, draw Lotus, Desire, Pact, play and break Lotus, tap 3 lands, Desire (Pacting a stifle) revealing RnD, RnD for tendrils x2, kill.

Without either you could do the Street Wraith pile, but wait a turn. Again, these stacks are pretty bad because they require 3 and 4 other mana sources respectively. Also consider that you could always duress and unmask their hand before DDing, but if you have the extra resources and you just want to play it safe, by all means these piles work against any single piece of disruption.  

[diopter]

with graveyard hate (planar void or leyline) your desire gets removed and you can shuffle it back to your library, so in this case you replace sins of the past with mind's desire.

if you think sins sucks, then will is in such situations even worse.

Let´s say you need to replay Mind's Desire from your graveyard, then you have two options:

shuffle Will into your library, replay your mana, replay desire

but what if you payed it with an dark ritual and a black lotus with no mana left?

=> shuffle Sins of the Past into your library and target Desire

both ways remove the Desire from the game so you might reshuffle it with R&D into your lib, but Will depends on LED+Lotus, Sin doesn´t, but creates smaller storm.

But Will is actually in the deck and actually generates kills on its own, whereas Sins is an additional card that sits in the sideboard doing nothing but getting Researched. There are corner cases where Sins can win and 2x Tendrils cannot - Mage on Tendrils and Chalice at 1 preventing you to hit Desire for 4, for example - but those sorts of scenarios are rare.

[Imsomniac101]

I honestly have no idea why you would want Sins of the Past in your SB. I play the old Beacon of Destruction, and it's been treating me really well. It gets rid of trouble some creatures like Platz, Mage on Tendrils, True Believer the like and is a win condition all in one card. It also allows you to win with a low storm count.

One card that I've run up against is Aven Mindcensor. It's just too painful to describe what happens when you walk into it with Dday on the stack.

Another problem card is Trickbind. I can't stress how important it is to have Duress in your deck if you suspect your opponent is wielding it.

[Jo84]

therefore Sins is just an addition to the sideboard, the situations it´s necessary or useful might be rare, but if the lack of sins can lose you the match, that's pretty bad.

Beacon in sideboard might be interesting, but isn´t massacre better for the purpose of killing mages/believer and so on, even without playing it through desire?

[hyperchord24]

What is the typical pile of 5 for doomsday?

Are their other options for a kill with this deck?

I personally would say:

1) Top of deck
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual/ LED
Mind's Desire
Research
Bottom of deck

Play Anc,Blotus,Rit, then after the first copy of Desire respond with Research and search for Will, Tendrils, FoW + stuff like Ritual/LED 2nd Research// Development etc. Then the other copys of Desire play Will, Tendrils and stuff for free.

Seems as quick as it is dirty. ^^

2) You can go for "normal" Stormcombo stuff like: Rit ->Blotus ->Demonic Tutor ->Will... or other Storm enabler stuff like Gush or Chain ov Vapor.


I'm also Interested in Sideboard stuff. With the 2 Researches (1 in SB) you can go for a lot of tricks and solutions. But theese are only known by Smmenen at the moment I think. ^^

I'm a little confused as to how you combo out.  If you fetch out will with it, doesn't it mean that it won't be maindeck?  In this particular stack, isn't what you play for free with mind's desire completely dependent on what you fetch with R+D?  Perhaps I'm missing something and don't understand the "typical" way the deck plays out.  You'll have to forgive me, I'm new to combo.

EDIT:  I'm so incredibly sorry to have posted such a ridiculous question.  I failed to realize that R+D essentially fetches anything in your deck because your deck minus the doomsday stack is removed from the game.

[Jo84]

Doomsday removes all cards from graveyard & library except the five you´ve already chosen, so this removed cards are together with your sideboard the legal cards you could shuffle into your lib with R&D.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Aven Mindcensor does nothing vs Doomsday, btw. Doomsday doesn't search your library.

[yatagirlofchaos]

Aven Mindcensor does nothing vs Doomsday, btw. Doomsday doesn't search your library.

Yes it does, see the Oracle wording.

[Harlequin]

Here's an Interesting Win for Doomsday, esp if you play Doomsday that transforms into Oath.  With a board of something like 4 oaths + 2-3 Tidespout Tyrants (assuming you run Forbiddens on the main as mana, and run mana crypt on the main).

Required Set Up: 2 open mana.  Thats it - no cards in hand, no spell count.

Normal Doomsday Set up: Recall, Mana Crypt, Lotus, Desire, R/D.


1) Play Recall, Crypt, Lotus, Desire - requires 7 mana = lotus + crypt +2 open mana, none floating, nothing untapped, spell count is 3, so thats 4 cards to desire for...
2) with the first copy of desire Flip R/D - cast for: Sapphire*, Tidespout Tyrant, Yawgs will.  If you already have sapphire in play then litterally any spell will work in this spot.
3) resolve the last 3 Desires for the cards above.  Your Yard will now be: R/D, Lotus, Desire.
4) Cast Tidespout for no mana.
5) Cast yawg for no mana (bounce an opponent's card), cast Lotus out of the yard (bounce an opponent's card again).
6) Cast Sapphire* bouncing Mana Crypt. *or other card if sapphire is alread in play.
7 - Loop) Tap Sapphire for U, play crypt and bounce sapphire, play sapphire bouncing crypt ...  now you have infinite blue and infinite storm. 
8) crack lotus for green.  Cast R/D out of your yard with, and get X,X,X,Tendrils.  X could be be essentially anything, more bounce, duresses, a 2nd tendrils.
9) cast Minds Desire out of your yard with some of your infinite mana.  Resolve infinite copies to get the above cards.
10) cast your disruption and win with tendrils for infinite dmg.


Wins through:
Infinite* Life
and 2 hate cards that do not restrict casting:
- Meddling Mage (naming tendrils)
- True Beleiver
- Ivory Mask/Solitary confinement

[Jo84]

with R&D in main- and sideboard you can go into an infinite loop as well, the Tidesprout seems unncessary as if you can play desire, you can clear every hate on the board, because you can R&D Desire back to your lib and play as many bounce as you choose.

[Harlequin]

This win does not require a 2nd R/D in the board.  Actually all it requires is a Tidespout and nothing else (assume you can fit 1 tendrils, and 1 mana crypt in the main).  No need for the extra R/D, or Sins, or tendril #2 .... so it can be your 1 card that you need in the board to run R/D main.

Also it requires ONLY 2 mana and no cards in hand with 0 spell count - so I think its the most efficient win I've seen yet.
(Turn 1 - land duress, turn 2 duress/unmask/Brianstorm, Rit DD).  Anything else is gravy.

[Sam101]

I prefer the Sins + 1 copy of R/D + 1 copy of Wipe Away in the Board, because you can anything the Tidespout Tyrant combo can do +

- It works through chalice @ 0 (This is very helpful when playing against ichorid/fish)
- It goes infinite with only 3 initail desire/desiire copies.

- 3 Copies of Minds Desire on the stack
- Flip and Play R/D, search for 1 Sins of the Past, and the Other R/D.
- Flip both Sins and R/D up, play Sins targeting Desire.
- R/D for Yagmoth's Will and Sins
- Play Mind's Desire for a total of 6 copies.
- Flip both Sins and Will (4 Desire copies remaining)
- Play Yagmoth's Will
- Play Sins targeting R/D
- Play R/D, search for Sins.
- Sins the second R/D, and R/D for the first R/D + Desire
- Rinse, Wash, Repeat

Sam

[brainiac7]

I don't pretend to know the rules of the game very well, but I don't think that the loop Sam101 is using works as he says.

I can't get very technical in my explanation but suffice it to say that the storm copies of Mind's Desire aren't going to linger around while you cast Yawgmoth's Will. When you don't have any cards in the library, the copies are going to become countered.

It seems there is a way to go infi with Sins of the Past, but not as outlined here exactly.

[mistervader]

I don't pretend to know the rules of the game very well, but I don't think that the loop Sam101 is using works as he says.

I can't get very technical in my explanation but suffice it to say that the storm copies of Mind's Desire aren't going to linger around while you cast Yawgmoth's Will. When you don't have any cards in the library, the copies are going to become countered.

It seems there is a way to go infi with Sins of the Past, but not as outlined here exactly.

You really just have to recast your spells, to be honest. You don't really need Sins to do that, even, but it's just that it's nice that your first Desire of 3 would yield:

R/D, Wipe Away, Sins. You Wipe Away the offending permanent, then R/D goodies, then Sins, target Desire. You then end the second iteration with Y. Will, and essentially recast your goodies, R/D Desire and R/D and one other card, then use AR to draw into Desire, etc.

You don't really need Sins to pull all this off. Instead of Sins, you can open this whole thing with Yawgmoth's Will, LED, Wipe Away. Then just wash, rinse, repeat, and finish with Ancestral and R/D while all your counters and Extirpates are face-up in Desire position, and just AR your opponent to death 'cause that's how you roll.

[SleepEZ]

       Hello Everyone, this is my first post here at the Mana Drain.  I've been following this Doomsday topic and now am planning on playing it this Sun at a local tournament.  What I have been wanting to know is what would be a good sideboard and which cards to take out for sideboard.  The main is really tight, so I'm having trouble deciding what should come out so that I can add my sideboard card.  I would say my meta here is lots of fishy decks 50% (TMWA, SSS, WU fish, etc) with some Ichorid 10%, Grim long 10%, Stax 10%, Gifts 20%... although now that gifts is restricted, I have a feeling these players will be looking to play Flash/Rector, Bomberman, or Grow A Tog.  Here is what my deck looks like currently.

// Lands
    2 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Underground Sea
    1 Swamp
    3 Island

// Creatures
    4 Street Wraith

// Spells
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Dark Ritual
    2 Cabal Ritual
    4 Doomsday
    1 Necropotence
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Chain of Vapor
    2 Gush
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Mystical Tutor
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Research/Development
    4 Duress
    2 Unmask

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 3 Massacre
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Research/Development
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 E Truth
SB: 1 Sins of the Past

So, the question again is what do I take out for which cards against which deck.

I'm thinking about siding in at least 4 Leyline of the Void for 4 Street Wraiths in match ups: Bomberman, Tog, Flash, and Ichorid

For the Fish match, cut 4 Street Wraiths for Combonation of darkblast and massacre depending on their use of Plains.

Other than that, I don't know what I could do to make it better... I'm taking suggestions...

[Imsomniac101]

I highly suggest swapping out some number of Wraiths for Gushes, to make that number up to 4. Gush is far more powerful than Wraith. You might also want to look into a Green splash for Fastbond, and maybe one Exploration.

If you are going into a Fish heavy meta, I highly suggest Beacon of Destruction over Sins of the Past. As many have indicated, Sins is mostly superflous.

Also, if you anticipate Ichorid to be a popular choice, Timetwister is really good. I don't think Darkblast is optimal.

[Jo84]

my main problem in playing will over sins is when I pay the Desire with Dark Ritual and Black Lotus... after Will, I can only get BBBBB or UUU if I haven´t another open mana. In this cases I replace Will with Sins for the same effect, you replay desire and then as it´s removed you can go infinite.

[mistervader]

my main problem in playing will over sins is when I pay the Desire with Dark Ritual and Black Lotus... after Will, I can only get BBBBB or UUU if I haven´t another open mana. In this cases I replace Will with Sins for the same effect, you replay desire and then as it´s removed you can go infinite.

Ummm... when you R/D, you simply get LED and Will. I'm sure you generated at least three storm...