The Long Awaited GWS Long Primer.

[ErkBek]

Sorry this article didn't get finished sooner, I've been really busy with getting my life together now that I'm done with college and in South Carolina.
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For my entire career, I’ve tried to build a Tendrils deck, and I think I’ve finally found exactly what I was looking for. It’s fast, it’s broken, it's resilient, and it's flexible all at the same time. This is not a Will deck, it’s a Tendrils deck.

The Business 23
4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Necropotence
1x Mind’s Desire
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
1x Timetwister
1x Wheel of Fortune
3x Grim Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Tendrils of Agony

The Protection 7
4x Duress
2x Rebuild
1x Hurkyl’s Recall

The Acceleration 19
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Land 11
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

The maindeck isn’t anything too new.  It’s about 6 or 7 cards from what Justin Droba made about a year ago, except he ran Green instead of Red. Since the deck has been completely built from the ground up by my teammate and I, I’ve decided to call the deck GWS Long.

Three factors have since then made Red a more attractive splash.

1)   The printing of Empty the Warrens has given combo another plan of attack in the stax and fish matchups.
2)   The printing of Simian Spirit Guide has made red spells much easier to cast, allowing a sideboard strategy with several red cards.
3)   The metagame has sped up significantly. Xantid Swarm isn’t what it used to be, Pryoblast is better.

I’ve seen a few other Grim Long and Pitch Long decks running red, but none of them are built to use red as much as I think it should be used; red is more of a splash color. Pitch Long by nature can’t run as much red as it’d like to, something I’ll talk about later. Red isn’t really a splash color in this deck, because post sideboard you typically have around 6 or 7 red cards in the deck.

Traditionally combo decks are supposed to win game 1, and then try to pull out 1 of the remaining 2 games. With this deck it just doesn’t feel that way. I go into games 2 and 3 knowing they are just as good, if not more so than game 1. Here’s the sideboard, plus strategies I’d recommend

4 Pyroblast
1 Volcanic
2 Extripate
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Planar Void
4 Open metagame slots (probably I’d run a 2 Leylines for the ichorid matchup, then some massacres if you expect lots of UW fish or some extra combo hate for the mirror)


Gifts
+4 Pyroblast
+2 Extripate
+1 Volcanic
-2 Cabal Rit
-3 Bounce Spells
-1 Iseal
-1 Mystical

Post board the gifts matchup is just great. You are basically running 2 combo-control decks up against each other, except yours is filled with more efficient spells and a more flexible win. You’ve got 10 spells that double as both disruption and protection costing just 1 mana each. Extripate is simply a house if the game gets past turn 3, which is fairly likely. Gifts cannot combo out through extripate very easily, specifically in this matchup since they are forced to try to put away a win as fast as possible.

Slaver
-1 Rebuild
-1 Iseal
-1 Mystical
-1 Cabal Rit
+1 Volc
+3 Pyroblast

Slaver is one of those matchups that are highly favorable game 1, and usually much worse after they bring in hate. The matchup is overall very favorable, but if you aren’t careful, they can definitely sneak a match from you. This matchup rewards experience probably more than any other.

I’ve found that Slaver usually has 3 different packages to address the combo matchup.

The first and probably most common is the Sphere of Resistance plan. In SoR plan you can expect Slaver to bring in 3 Sphere of Resistance and 2 Duress or Tormod’s Crypts to compliment them. You’ve got a Rebuild and Hurkyl’s to deal with the SoR’s in game 2 if they hit play.  If you know they’ve got Spheres on the board, keep in the 3rd bounce spell.

The second plan for the Slaver players that are not so focused on the combo match and more on gifts. This plan usually involves bumping their disruption package up to 3 Red Blast, 3 Duress, and 2-3 Tormod’s Crypts (plus the standard 4 Drain and 4 FoW package). While playing against 16-17 disruption spells may be intimidating, it’s actually not all that bad. To play this much disruption, Slaver has to dilute their deck a considerable amount, so you can expect they won’t be slave locking you too quickly unless they draw a spicy opening 7.

The third and probably least common plan is the Arcane Lab plan. This plan sucks, especially vs. you since you bring in 3 Pryoblast. Anyways, they will likely bring in 2 or 3 REBs or Duress to go with them.

I think its worth noting that no Slaver player runs Chalice on their board anymore.

Combo Mirror
+2 Extripate
+1 Volcanic
+2 Pryoblast
-3 Bounce Spells
-1 Iseal
-1 Island
(when on the draw cut necro for another pryoblast)

Combo mirrors are never fun. Pitch Long almost always has a small upper hand in combo mirror. Again, there are a couple things you can expect to see out of your opponent’s sideboard.

Option 1 is simply have their maindeck Force of Wills to go along with either Envelop or Duress off the sideboard, Duress being more likely. This is the classic combo mirror, all I can advise on this is know your role and try to make them blow FoW + blue card in the first 2 turns if possible. 

If they are playing 5C Pitch Long or any form of Grim Long, you could run into Orim’s Chant off the sideboard. Chant is real pain to play against. If they are playing a 2.5C build, closely watch unused fetchlands. If they sit on the table, and your opponent is not deckthinning, this is likely a tell. They probably don’t want to reveal to you a white source which means they want to respond to a draw7 or Yawgmoth’s Will with an  Orim’s Chant. Maybe now that I’ve posted this, people might bluff with this maneuver, you could even go as far as playing a Scrubland or Tundra on the board but no Chants to go along with it. 

Stax
+3 Empty the Warrens
+1 Volcanic
-1 Iseal
-1 Mind’s Desire
-1 Duress
-1 Tendrils

You should have a pretty decent game 1 vs. stax because I’ve included 3 global bounce spells, 2 SSG in the maindeck, and the stability of a 2 color manabase. Chalice for 1 is a beating, costing you nearly a third of your deck (18 cards).

Warrens really helps a lot in this matchup. You’re not diluting your deck at all to play it; you’re actually making your deck even more threat and mana rich. Playing a Warrens for 6 on turn 1 or 2 isn’t really all that difficult and it can really cause problems for an opponent. Your opponent is also bringing in something like 3-5 cards to deal with the 3 cards you brought in, diluting their focus off your main storm kill.

Artifact/Affinity Aggro
No Sideboarding with the current sideboard. Maybe -1 Duress +1 Volcanic when on the draw. I really think this deck is a sleeper, but it’s only seeing play in the Midwest.

The SS
+3 Warrens
+1 Volcanic
+4 Pyroblast
-3 Bounce
-1 Cabal Rit
-1 Tendrils
-1 Desire
-1 Tinker
-1 Jar

I understand that the SS does have answers to Warrens, but a mid-sized warrens will force them to change their focus, pretty quickly. In my limited experience with this matchup, ETW has been gold. 

You’ll notice that I board out Tinker, Jar, and Desire in this matchup because you simply cannot afford for your bombs to get stifled. Also, you should be aware that the SS will probably be bringing in a couple of Shadow of Doubts which are really annoying. I bring in a full set of Pyroblasts because they counter tons of their spells, but most importantly to kill Dimir Cutpurse. Cutpurse is usually the nail in the coffin, especially if they get in a turn 1 stifle/duress followed by a turn 2 cutpurse.

Just as a tip, you are much better off playing around stifle and having lands wasted, than ever giving your opponent the opportunity to stifle your fetchlands. If they waste a land at least they lost a land drop in the process.

UW Fish
+1 Volcanic
+3 Warrens
+2 Pryoblast
-1 Rebuild
-1 Mana Vault
-1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-1 Iseal
-1 Mind’s Desire
-1 Tendrils

If you really fear UW fish, you should pack some Massacres on the board. Chant is the real problem in the matchup though. If you know they’ve one in hand either try to either duress it away, catch them tapped out, try to win with a mid-sized warrens, or massacre the board and then play a draw7 into their chant. That chant is gone and you’ve got seven new cards to work with next turn.

Oath
+1 Volcanic
+2 Pryoblast
-1 Iseal
-1 Mind’s Desire
-1 LED

The only card I fear in oath is Chalice at 1, again that’s why I’m running 3 bounce spells that don’t cost 1. If they do get an early chalice @1, winning is going to be tough because it’ll be rough trying to resolve your bounce spells without protection. If they don’t have chalice, you shouldn’t have much problem winning.

 Ichorid
On the Draw
+1 Volcanic
+1 Planar Void
+2 Extripate
-4 Duress

On the Play
+1 Planar Void
+2 Extripate
-1 Duress
-2 Rebuild

I never got to play Long vs. new ichorid, but I found old ichorid to be slightly favorable. Against old ichorid my plan was to just be able to play a bomb by turn 2. I would mull to 4 fairly often to do this. If they are fortunate enough to get an unmask or chalice that single handily defeats me, then their deck did what it was supposed to do. I’m not too sure who thought of the 1 of planar void on the sideboard for GL, but it’s mainly there as a tutor target. Against new ichorid, you’ve got a whole new animal. I think that I’d go with 2 leylines on the sideboard for some more oops I win hands.

You’ll notice that in every matchup I bring in the Volcanic Island off the board. I’ve always liked having extra land in my sideboard of combo to change mana ratios for post-boarded games since they typically last longer.  This deck is no exception.  I prefer 11 lands in game 1 and 12 lands in games 2 and 3. 

I hope that covers most questions regarding playing red, matchups, and sideboarding strategies now I’d like to talk about playing GWS Long.

Becker’s Hierarchy of GWS Long’s Threats
At some point in the thread about CrossLong on TheManaDrain.com, I made what I called the “Hierarchy of Combo.” Basically, I ranked the threats that I found best to have in your opening hand that would lead you to winning the game. In this list, I excluded tutors, Yawgmoth’s Will, and Black Lotus since they produce threats and their value is highly dependant on what else is in your hand. Here’s in order the bombs I like to see in my opening hand

1)   Necropotence – Necro is easy to cast and produces tremendous card advantage. It’s probably one of Grim Long’s best outs to winning through chalice at 1 as well. Every time I draw necro I feel like I’m just going through the motions. I don’t think playing it on turn 2 is all that bad either, because the chances of getting combo’d out by a mini tendrils when my opponent couldn’t produce a full tendrils for 20 is pretty low.

Most players are very unsure on how many cards they should take with Necropotence. I have a couple standard rules that I’ll try to explain to help you choose how many cards to take.

   a. 7 life is the minimum life total you can be at to make the Grim->Will->Grim->Tendrils play. This is often times the quickest and most simple way to wrap up a game after necro resolves. I often times will just go straight to 8 or 9 life after necro resolves so I can put away the game like this.

   b. How many cards are in your hand? If you’ve got 2 or less and they aren’t very good, you probably are looking for a full new grip of cards. I’d probably go for around 11 cards, this will give you probably whatever you are looking for.

   c. If you’ve still got business in your hand, you probably don’t need all that many cards. I’d probably go to about 12 or so life, so you can produce bombs 3 turns in a row.

   d. When deciding what cards to keep, you should be able to figure out some combination of cards that wins the game right there, on the spot. Try to figure out what combination can do this with the least amount of cards possible. If you only need five cards, keep the 2 most flexible cards to go along with those five. These cards should allow you to play around common hate cards the best.  For example, you may decide to keep an extra land in your hand to play around the possibility of a strip mine, wasteland, or even academy (to match yours).
   
   e. Necro -> Tendrils -> Necro -> Win is a favorite strategy of mine. Gaining 10ish life off a tendrils combined with a duress or time walk is a great way to just bury your opponent even further. The life gain from tendrils should give you the remaining cards you need to win.

2)   Ancestral Recall – Ancestral is obviously good stuff. The efficiency of U for 3 cards is obviously very powerful. If you are playing a post board game be sure to play around Red Blast.

3)   Yawgmoth’s Bargain – While Bargain is very expensive its brute power to draw 19 cards is just unmatchable. I’ve seen some people misplay bargain very badly, just a couple things to note here. The main thing comes from people that have made their land drop for the turn and have 0 mana floating, going for the kill that turn. Think about it. You’ve only got Mox Jet, Black Lotus, and Lotus Petal as mana starters that are on color (well Sapphire + Walk will work too). If you don’t sense a ton on pressure from your opponent, look at the top couple cards and pass the turn at a healthy life total. 

4)   Wheel of Fortune – I asked Steve a while ago why he doesn’t switch from 5C long to 2.5C and his response was Wheel of Fortune. Yes, wheel is really good, but playing a 5C manabase sucks. I’ll talk about successfully playing draw7’s in a little bit.

5)   Tinker + Jar – Tinker’s flexibility to grab Lotus for a Yawg Will or to grab Memory Jar for a draw 7 is really handy. In my book Wheel is better than Tinker Jar though, because you permanently get the cards, plus you don’t have to worry about Red Blast, Null Rod, or Stifle.

6)   Timetwister – I’d put this at the bottom of the draw7’s. Most of the time shuffling back graveyards is actually the opposite of what you are trying to do, however this can be a bonus vs. ichorid or CS (after they get a robot in the yard). Again, it’s blue so bait those Red Blast with Brainstorms.

7)   Mind’s Desire – Yes, desire isn’t too high on my list.  It’s because I feel that it is very difficult to set up properly, and even when you do, you aren’t really guaranteed a win. Desire is a nice tutor target when you’ve got lots of mana and are probably up against a counter or two. If you draw desire, academy should come to mind as a possible tutor target so you can cast a desire without ever showing UU signaling an opponent what you are up to. I’m a bit of a hater on Desire, you may think much higher of it, that’s cool, I’ve found that I’ve lost several games because Desire either fizzled or I died holding it.

Playing Draw7’s better
This is definitely one of the toughest things to describe how to do. I hope I can shed some light on it. Far too often I hear something like “So I played my land for the turn, mox, ritual, and Twister with BB in pool. I drew 7 new cards and didn’t win that turn. How unlucky!”

Wheel, Jar, and Twister play out slightly differently, none of them do the exact same thing so you shouldn’t expect the exact same thing out of each one. These all have the same purpose though; to generate card advantage and further mana production, leading into either another bomb or the finisher, Tendrils. 

When you play a draw7 you’re going to see a different set of cards each time upon resolution, the real skill comes from properly setting up a draw7. When playing a draw7, specifically Wheel and Jar, you can roughly estimate the threat density and mana density of the deck. This is most important when it comes to Memory Jar since you actually have the choice of whether or not to activate it the turn it hits play.

Typically with a draw 7, I do not assume I’m going to win the game unless I have at least 4 mana floating upon resolution.  4 mana is an arbitrary number, but I look at it this way, its like you’re restarting the game with Black Lotus, a mox, and a storm of X already, can you win turn 1? Probably, but not always (largely because you can’t mulligan this 7). If you look at it that way, you can’t take for granted that you’re going to always win the turn you cast a draw7. If you can’t win that turn, your goal is to survive another turn in which winning shouldn’t be too difficult unless an opponent has really thrown a wrench into your plans or you drew the anti-nuts.

There are a couple of cool tricks involving Memory Jar. The first is pretty obvious, wait until your next upkeep to activate jar. This way you will get to untap all your lands and then draw an 8th card during your draw phase. I usually pass the turn about 70% of the time Memory Jar hits play.  Another trick that most combo players know, is to play a threat or a Duress while Jar is still on the table and then activate it in response. This way you will still draw your 7 cards from Memory Jar, but still benefit from the cards in your past hand. For example, I could play a Grim Tutor and then break Jar in response, draw 7 cards and then ask if Grim Tutor resolves. The final trick with Jar I’d like to mention is that if you need to bail out of kill that turn, you can set up the kill for next turn with either a Brainstorm or a topdeck tutor.

The final thing I’d like to mention about draw7’s in this build is that it’s not all that unlikely that you will hit a Tendrils on your draw7 hand. If you don’t hit a Tendrils you’ll likely hit another bomb or a tutor. If you’ve got enough mana floating it’s really not all that difficult to find the game ending Tendrils. Think about it, if you have 4 mana floating, all your hand needs to do is net 3 mana and have a Grim Tutor in it to end the game.

Questionable cards included in this deck
Imperial Seal – This card is great in Grim Long, but bad in Pitch Long. It simply comes from the efficiency of Grim Long allowing all the card disadvantage tutors which help produce a continuous stream of threats. 

Time Walk – It took me a long time to realize why Time Walk is good in Grim Long but marginal in IT, TPS, and Pitch Long.  Grim Long is the most threat rich of all combo decks and it never has to hold back playing Walk to pitch it to FoW.  Time Walk is a mini-combo with all of your real bombs.  Despite what people say, playing a draw7 into a Time Walk is great.  Sure it resets your storm count, but lets you untap probably about 5 mana sources to go off the next turn.  Walk plus Necro or Bargain is also really good too.

Simian Spirit Guide – This guy is amazing. It compliments the red sideboard plan perfectly, provides mox-like acceleration for comboing, helps cast bounce spells, and even beats for 2 in a crunch. You’ll notice that I never board this guy out, he’s too valuable.

Cards excluded from this deck
Windfall – Windfall is a true hit or miss when its cast. A teammate of mine, Phillip Schmitt put it well saying, “Windfall is a very mercurial card.  A Windfall for 4 can win you the game, but one for 7 will crap out.  It's really weird.” I would say windfall is competing with a 3rd Grim Tutor and I’d much rather have the Grim Tutor.

Burning Wish – Burning Wish makes you run a crappy sideboard and you never want to have to cast it. Even if you were to cast it, there’s usually nothing good to wish for.

Infernal Contract – I brought this card back mainstream in Vintage when I started playing it in Pitch Long. Basically it’s good in Pitch Long due to its pitch magic sweet, but it sucks in Grim Long.

Chain of Vapor – The most common and most problematic maindeck hate card for Grim Long is Chalice of the Void set at 1. Pitch Long has 3 ways to deal with chalice, either counter it with Force of Will, bounce it with the non-chain bounce spell, or win right through it using cabal rituals for mana. Grim Long’s only real chance is to bounce the chalice because playing through it is going to be tough, plus you don’t have FoW to buy you time.

Finally, I’d like to say exactly why I think GWS Long is the best deck in the format.

The first reason is the advantage of playing ritual combo. “The best defense, is a good offense.” In vintage, now more than ever, combo is king. Grim Long is the format’s fastest deck and it is on the beatdown in every matchup. This is invaluable to your strategy. Unless you are playing a ritual combo mirror, you can mostly ignore that your opponent may race you.

I believe that this deck is better than Pitch Long simply because the maindeck is more efficient and consistent, plus the sideboard options are not limited. All of this has to do with the inclusion of Force of Will. FoW is best protection card for combo, if it does not hinder the deck’s consistency and options. I feel that FoW does hinder pitch long’s consistency, specifically when mulliganing. Force of Will is the last card I want to see in a mulligan to 5, because I’m looking for gas or efficient disruption. Force of Will, Misdirection, and Grim Tutor combine to make 10 cards in Pitch Long that require 2 cards to play (FoW + blue card or Grim + Ritual). This card inefficiency catches up with the deck especially in the gifts matchup and when up against duress.

I feel that the real problem with Force of Will is the sideboard limitations it causes. To properly support Force of Will you need at least 12 other blue cards in the deck, the thing is you don’t want 12 other blue cards often times. So you’re forced doing things like keeping in Mystical Tutor and Chain of Vapor when you really want to just board them out. You’ll also notice that Pitch Long wants to just board into Grim Long against Gifts for its efficiency, but it’s limited by sideboard space. In fact, Pitch Long wants to play like Grim Long in the SS matchup too.   

In conclusion, GWS Long is so powerful because its strategy is very focused as a pure combo deck in game 1.  Then it sideboards into a combo-control when it is desirable to.  Since it’s not playing Force of Will, there are no limitations to your sideboarding strategies, thus you can run whatever cards you want on your sideboard.

I hope that you found this article enjoyable and informative. Thanks for reading.

Eric Becker
Team GWS

------Bonus on post Future Sight GWS Long ---------

Unfortunately, I never got to play Vintage with Future Sight before I retired from the game.  However, I’ve talked with a few individuals about their experience with Street Wraith and Pact of Negation.  It seems that Street Wraith has proved itself and it should be included for sure.  Meanwhile, Pact of Negation is simply not needed.  Pact is a win more in your good matchups and a terrible draw in your bad matchups.  I’d recommend these changes

-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Rebuild
-1 Mystical Tutor
+3 Street Wraith.

I view Street Wraith as a card fix ratios and to cut dead weight from a deck.  By adding 3 Street Wraith and not 4, you get what I consider an improved mana ratio, of just over 50% mana.  Also, from what I’ve heard, casting Street Wraith against fish and stax is some good.

[Ged]

Thanks Kobefan, great deck and primer.

[Parcher]

My interest in the current Vintage format is limited, but I had to comment on how appreciative I am of this primer. It is both well-written and informative, even to a layman. With just enough information that it won't bore those familiar with the deck, but someone like myself can deduce the situations in which this knowledge can be applied.

A sincere thank you Mr. Becker.

[Polynomial P]

Very nice primer Eric. I've tinkered with the deck a bit and i want your opinion of running 6 rituals (or 5 post FS). One thing I really liked about Pitchlong is that it ran a full suite of rits, so you could go turn 1 Necro or grim tutor early. Right now you have lots of BB spells and you really want to see a rit off a draw seven, but your chance of hitting one is terrible compared to pitchlong. Have you considered moving the goblin spirit guides to the SB and playing a few more rits in the MD? Since your only MD red card is Wheel and you have 8 other red sources, you shouldnt have too much trouble casting it.

[Malhavoc]

I really like the idea to splash more red, particularly for the goodness of EtW in the fish and stax matchups. However, I still prefer pitch spells over duress: I don't think that duress is better in the Gifts matchup, since it slows you down and let him get UU, plus if you see double drain and he has UU open, you can't combo off, while you can with pitch counters.. sure, it's not ALWAYS superior, and it's of course very resource intensive to pitch spells, so I can't say you are wrong at all, but on top of this I have to say that the lack of FoW in a T1 deck makes me wonder, but that's of course play style.

However, I would really like to point out that that decklist preboard just lose to second turn meddling mage on tendrils.. if he starts you will need to win first turn since you can't even duress mage away. It's true that meddling usually doesn't name tendrils, but losing to a bad player is even worse that losing to a good one! Swapping a rebuild with a chain/echoing seems like a forced choice to me.

[ErkBek]

Thanks Kobefan, great deck and primer.

Thanks again for the help with the editing.

A sincere thank you Mr. Becker.

Glad you enjoyed it.

I've tinkered with the deck a bit and i want your opinion of running 6 rituals (or 5 post FS). One thing I really liked about Pitchlong is that it ran a full suite of rits, so you could go turn 1 Necro or grim tutor early. Right now you have lots of BB spells and you really want to see a rit off a draw seven, but your chance of hitting one is terrible compared to pitchlong. Have you considered moving the goblin spirit guides to the SB and playing a few more rits in the MD? Since your only MD red card is Wheel and you have 8 other red sources, you shouldnt have too much trouble casting it.

Basically I've found that playing 3 or 4 cabal rituals help you go more directly for the yawg will kill, but SSG is actually better for playing draw7's. Most of the time when you play a draw7 (and expect to win that turn) you should have some sort of mana floating upon casting it. Thus SSG and cabal ritual should be roughly the same regarding mana production when casting draw7's with floating mana. One of the key things I've found though, is often times right after a draw7, Cabal Ritual is the key spell that is countered breaking a turn. The thing is, Cabal Ritual is obviously the key spell to counter, but you get backed into plays. SSG on the other hand gives you creativity in your plays instead of being backed into plays. SSG allows you to do more things like turn 1 draw7's (to force your opponent to mulligan and give you card advantage), slide a final mana out to play a stormed up tendrils or desire, or produce multiple threats in 1 turn that win through counters (ie play ritual->necro then Mox, SSG, Tinker).

Cutting down to 1 or 2 Cabal Rituals will give you a new appreciation for how good dark ritual is again. Not that you need more Rituals, you will figure out the efficiency and tactical advantage you get from paying only 1 mana for acceleration.

However, I still prefer pitch spells over duress: I don't think that duress is better in the Gifts matchup, since it slows you down and let him get UU, plus if you see double drain and he has UU open, you can't combo off, while you can with pitch counters.. sure, it's not ALWAYS superior, and it's of course very resource intensive to pitch spells, so I can't say you are wrong at all, but on top of this I have to say that the lack of FoW in a T1 deck makes me wonder, but that's of course play style.

How often does 2x drain vs. 1x Duress actually happen vs. gifts. Honestly, I haven't had this come up at all since the days of IT. Usually it's more of something like turn 1 scroll for Fow, turn 2 have drain + FoW. If they do this you simply duress away the Drain and make them play the FoW. So lets play this out

Grim Long - Duress the Drain
Play a threat - meets FoW (gifts is down a random blue card)
Back to square 1, but you're up on cards

Pitch Long - Threat that meets drain
FoW the drain (PL is down a card, likely a Bomb or draw spell)
Gifts FoW's the FoW (Gifts is down a random blue card)
Drain resolves and gifts gets ~3 mana

Grim Long is much better off here because you didn't have to pitch that blue spell, plus gifts is not randomly getting 3 mana in their next main phase.

If you are remotely concerned about the gifts matchup, GWS Long is much better suited for it (especially post board).

However, I would really like to point out that that decklist preboard just lose to second turn meddling mage on tendrils.. if he starts you will need to win first turn since you can't even duress mage away. It's true that meddling usually doesn't name tendrils, but losing to a bad player is even worse that losing to a good one! Swapping a rebuild with a chain/echoing seems like a forced choice to me.

Okay, MM on Tendrils, GG you got me. Actually, post FS you've got 5 creatures that are as big as or larger than MM. Honestly, if you're opponent just resolved a turn 2 meddling mage

a) they are probably concerned about slowing you down and will name Dark Ritual and not Tendrils
b) you are fighting an uphill battle either way and tutoring up a 1 of chain of vapor and then killing them isn't always going to work
c) are for some reason playing UW fish (well, I could respect them if they were playing UWB fish). Anyways if MM is a problem in your metagame, then run a CoV or E truth in the maindeck.

I really think your best out to a turn 2 MM is a turn 2 Street Wraith.

[demonic effect]

Hey, i just want to begin by saying great primer...  Additionally, I have to admit I don't know much about the play style of this deck directly in terms of matchups etc... and so I had just a few questions...

Unfortunately, I never got to play Vintage with Future Sight before I retired from the game.  However, I’ve talked with a few individuals about their experience with Street Wraith and Pact of Negation.  It seems that Street Wraith has proved itself and it should be included for sure.  Meanwhile, Pact of Negation is simply not needed.  Pact is a win more in your good matchups and a terrible draw in your bad matchups.  I’d recommend these changes

-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Rebuild
-1 Mystical Tutor
+3 Street Wraith.

I view Street Wraith as a card fix ratios and to cut dead weight from a deck.  By adding 3 Street Wraith and not 4, you get what I consider an improved mana ratio, of just over 50% mana.  Also, from what I’ve heard, casting Street Wraith against fish and stax is some good.

Since you are saying that Chalice is one of the biggest threats to you often being able to be played turn 1 @ 1, doesn't removing mystical and rebuild kind of hurt you?  Like I realize that mystical is also shut off by Chalice @ 1 but it does allow you to play mystical in response to search for rebuild to answer the chalice... 

I also realize that Street Wraith is an amazing card in its own right, but cutting out 2 cards that help you fight against a relatively common hate card that pretty much means you lose seems pretty bad to me...  If you could explain why those cards are being cut in more detail it'd be appreciated.

How often does 2x drain vs. 1x Duress actually happen vs. gifts. Honestly, I haven't had this come up at all since the days of IT. Usually it's more of something like turn 1 scroll for Fow, turn 2 have drain + FoW. If they do this you simply duress away the Drain and make them play the FoW. So lets play this out

Grim Long - Duress the Drain
Play a threat - meets FoW (gifts is down a random blue card)
Back to square 1, but you're up on cards

Pitch Long - Threat that meets drain
FoW the drain (PL is down a card, likely a Bomb or draw spell)
Gifts FoW's the FoW (Gifts is down a random blue card)
Drain resolves and gifts gets ~3 mana

Grim Long is much better off here because you didn't have to pitch that blue spell, plus gifts is not randomly getting 3 mana in their next main phase.

If you are remotely concerned about the gifts matchup, GWS Long is much better suited for it (especially post board).

I realize you said that you haven't had the chance to test a lot of FS... but how does this deck fair against Flash decks? specifically the hulk kiki ones...  They can consistently go off turn 1 or 2 with protection... Duress goes a long way in helping stop them from having the combo pieces (flash, scroll, summoner's pact) but is only a 4 of and can be FoW'd...  Flash doesn't really care as much about card advantage as your deck since once it resolves 1 card with hulk in hand it wins regardless of advantage... (i realize card advantage still helps to set this up)...  With decks like this or even decks like doomsday that are being looked at, often duress will simply be suboptimal where once they play their namesake then they effectively win against GWS Long because duress won't be able to stop them at that point...

This is not to say that duress is a bad card, or that it should even be cut...  I am just wondering if the meta continues to get faster and attempts to win merely by playing 1 card rather than the set-up of decks like gifts, tednril's.dec, etc... that pitch spells may become more useful...  Obviously this has disynergy with the deck as a whole, but I was wondering if you could give a more comprehensive explanation of duress over FoW in relation to these changes... 

Like duress is great when a deck needs to draw into cards to win since you can either steal their bomb or draw spell... But against a deck like flash where half the deck is fixed as a tutor or the win condition... taking one of these cards won't stall them nearly as much IMHO as merely waiting until they try to play flash and then countering it...  If they counter your counter then in all liklihood they could counter your duress and so you were going to lose anyway... but if they play flash and break summoner's pact for it, using a FoW is definately a superior play than duress as that will set them back much further than duress...

The final question I have is... when playing this deck since you say that it switches from combo to combo control... what turns do you typically shoot for the win by pre and post board?

Anyway, again thanks for the amazing primer and, as stated, your advice on these issues would be of great help!

[Ged]

You are forgetting that post board you have 4x pyroblast as instant speed counter (and with SSG it becomes FoW).

Thanks again for the help with the editing.

I'll do it whenever you ask. Free of charge.

[ErkBek]

Since you are saying that Chalice is one of the biggest threats to you often being able to be played turn 1 @ 1, doesn't removing mystical and rebuild kind of hurt you?  Like I realize that mystical is also shut off by Chalice @ 1 but it does allow you to play mystical in response to search for rebuild to answer the chalice... 

I also realize that Street Wraith is an amazing card in its own right, but cutting out 2 cards that help you fight against a relatively common hate card that pretty much means you lose seems pretty bad to me...  If you could explain why those cards are being cut in more detail it'd be appreciated.

Honestly, it's because I don't know what else to cut. 3 global bounce is a little high, I'm sure that 2 would work fine. Maybe simply cutting a Rebuild and a Cabal Rit may be a good idea. Even if you don't play SW in the deck, GWS Long gets better since other decks will randomly lose 2 life, making your tendrils plan even easier.

I realize you said that you haven't had the chance to test a lot of FS... but how does this deck fair against Flash decks? specifically the hulk kiki ones...  They can consistently go off turn 1 or 2 with protection... Duress goes a long way in helping stop them from having the combo pieces (flash, scroll, summoner's pact) but is only a 4 of and can be FoW'd...  Flash doesn't really care as much about card advantage as your deck since once it resolves 1 card with hulk in hand it wins regardless of advantage... (i realize card advantage still helps to set this up)...  With decks like this or even decks like doomsday that are being looked at, often duress will simply be suboptimal where once they play their namesake then they effectively win against GWS Long because duress won't be able to stop them at that point...

If the fastest deck in the format can't operate without FoW to protect from dying first, then there are problems with the format.

4 Leylines in the board seem like a for sure now if both Flash and Ichorid are seeing lots of play in the post FS meta.

The final question I have is... when playing this deck since you say that it switches from combo to combo control... what turns do you typically shoot for the win by pre and post board?

It really depends on your hand. I've gotten turn 1's post board and I've killed on turn 10 as well. It's the beauty of combo-control.

[arj]

Excellent primer and thanks for a really good deck

I saw this deck when you posted about it a month or so in the tournament results section. I recently won a very small tourney (11 player I think) of only good decks with it. I've been playing tendrils decks for I don't know how LONG and I really like this build. The Spirit guides are amazing. The deck gives out a fair amount of turn 1 kills which is a nice bonus

[zeus-online]

Like duress is great when a deck needs to draw into cards to win since you can either steal their bomb or draw spell... But against a deck like flash where half the deck is fixed as a tutor or the win condition... taking one of these cards won't stall them nearly as much IMHO as merely waiting until they try to play flash and then countering it...  If they counter your counter then in all liklihood they could counter your duress and so you were going to lose anyway... but if they play flash and break summoner's pact for it, using a FoW is definately a superior play than duress as that will set them back much further than duress...

Think about it for a second....if you hit the flash with duress, they may just be stranded on the other half of the combo, which means several dead cards....Should buy at least a turn, and that is alot in vintage....Even if they do have a tutor, they need to cast it first, which ties up mana potentially for a full turn.
2 Card combinations haven't really worked since tendrils got printed, with a few exceptions (Dragon mostly)..Flash is ofcourse a slightly different animal since it only requires you to play 1 card (Belcher style), but it still needs the other piece to win.

/Zeus

[Kieranwolf]

Cool primer. Most of the matchups seem very spot-on, including SS. I've found Cutpurse to be very good vs. storm combo, and I've even been able to use it as a scare tactic more than once. REBs are never good to see, so a Long build based more on red is far worse a matchup. Just having more maindecked bombs is better vs. a constant discard effect, too. You can come back after being hit by discard as long as you're quick about it.

Concerning post-FS:

I'm not sure if Flash is really the beast it was made out to be, especially Flash Tendrils. The real danger is them going off before your turn, and Leyline fixes that problem more often than not. After that, Duress can buy you turns. As long as you can win before they build enough mana to tutor, bounce, and win on their turn, you should be fine. You'd also be in trouble if you run out of hand disruption and don't have enough gas/get Fow'd, but that doesn't seem much worse than what happens against Gifts. REB and SSG are really good here, too.

Ichorid might be a lot scarier in post-FS vintage because of its ability to kill hate. I think that if you end up running into lots of Ichorid, a sideboard plan of 4 Leyline, 2 Pithing Needle should swing the matchup in your favor. Long of course still has the fast win, and most of the time their Therapy (cast with Bayou, most likely) won't hurt you too much. Winning before Therapy #2 is pretty important, I'd imagine.

The other question to ask is whether siding in 6 cards is better than going for the optimal configuration for the fast win. At most, you'd be facing a turn 0 Leyline and a turn 1 hardcast Therapy against Ichorid. Perhaps a flashed Therp too, but that's only if they get Narcomoeba out turn 1. Unopposed Ichorid has a Fundamental Turn of 2 or 3, depending on their draw and what Bazaar digs up. If you're on the play, would the best strategy be to go for a turn 1 or 2 win, rather than dilute your deck with hate?

[demonic effect]

Think about it for a second....if you hit the flash with duress, they may just be stranded on the other half of the combo, which means several dead cards....Should buy at least a turn, and that is alot in vintage....Even if they do have a tutor, they need to cast it first, which ties up mana potentially for a full turn.
2 Card combinations haven't really worked since tendrils got printed, with a few exceptions (Dragon mostly)..Flash is ofcourse a slightly different animal since it only requires you to play 1 card (Belcher style), but it still needs the other piece to win.

Right... my point wasn't to say that duress is bad... in fact I list the 3 cards of the 4 that directly enable the combo (scroll, flash, summoner's pact)...  Its true that duress will buy time, but my point was that if they are in a situation where they will win next turn (likely since they win turn 1-2), and they can counter your counter, then they will probably also counter the duress as well to ensure that they go off next turn...  As such, the two cards work relatively the same except one has the potential of screwing up both pieces of the combo (if they pact for hulk and then play flash)... which because of the lack of draw is pretty much GG where losing only one piece of the combo in a deck designed to find combo pieces isn't AS good...

Again, this was not to say that duress is bad but i was hoping for a more comprehensive analysis as to the way the two cards function... IMHO it seems that FoW is a better card than duress although it comes with a drawback...  does that outweigh the comparative value of duress etc...?  A lot of analysis has been given pre FS... i was more curious how it would relate in post FS?  maybe pact of negation in hulk makes counters worse? idk, that's why i'm asking the question

[ErkBek]

Again, this was not to say that duress is bad but i was hoping for a more comprehensive analysis as to the way the two cards function... IMHO it seems that FoW is a better card than duress although it comes with a drawback...  does that outweigh the comparative value of duress etc...?  A lot of analysis has been given pre FS... i was more curious how it would relate in post FS?  maybe pact of negation in hulk makes counters worse? idk, that's why i'm asking the question

Honestly, I don't know what else to say about duress vs. FoW.

[desolutionist]

Awesome primer.  Everything is incredibly accurate. 

Again, this was not to say that duress is bad but i was hoping for a more comprehensive analysis as to the way the two cards function... IMHO it seems that FoW is a better card than duress although it comes with a drawback...  does that outweigh the comparative value of duress etc...?  A lot of analysis has been given pre FS... i was more curious how it would relate in post FS?  maybe pact of negation in hulk makes counters worse? idk, that's why i'm asking the question

It is purely a metagame choice.  Force of Wills and Misdirections clearly aren't better than Duress and Cabal Therapies against Merchant Scroll decks, but are against faster, focused combo decks.  The reason for this is because Duress builds operate with the goal of exhausting your opponent's counters.  As long as your opponent doesn't win, you will eventually win; you're never in a position where it is impossible to defeat your opponent's grip.  Duress is definitely correct if "you can mostly ignore that your opponent may race you".

As long as your opponent doesn't win

Duress builds are unfavored against faster decks and moderately fast (relative to GL) decks with turn zero disruption because winning before they win isn't likely.  I prefer Pitch Long in the current metagame because Ichorid and Flash are both faster and moderately fast with turn zero disruption.  Also, a lot of Gifts and Slaver players have been migrating, due to the Ichorid and Flash influx, to Ritual Gifts and Long builds, making GL even more unimpressive.

[Irenicus]

As some of you might know I started playing Long with a 5c-version with Orim’s Chant. But after playing some others deck, I started playing Grim Long again, but this time Ubr. I contacted Eric via PM and I found a version that suited me well.
Now, with FS being legal, there are some changes to be made. Street Wraith might have a place in this deck, but it’s difficult to fit it in.

Here is my current list:

    Lands (10):
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Island
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Swamp
    Mana (18):
    2 Simian Spirit Guide
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Cabal Ritual
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    Disruption and Defense (6):
    1 Rebuilt
    1 Chain of Vapor
    4 Duress
    Win (2):
    2 Tendrils of Agony
    Tutors (6):
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    3 Grim Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    Draw7s (4):
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Tinker
    1 Wheel of Fortune
    1 Timetwister
    Broken stuff (5):
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1 Necropotence
    Others (9):
    1 Time Walk
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Street Wraith

Sideboard(15):

SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Volcanic Island
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Extirpate

Some explanations and thoughts in general:

1) In my meta there aren’t played many Wastelands in recent time. Therefore I never felt that 11 land are barely enough. I sometimes even boarded 1 land out vs. Control.decs. Therefore with the addtion of Street Wraith and the 50/50 mana-ration, I cut a land and a Cabal Ritual for 2/4 Street Wraith. ( Btw the chances for drawing at least one land in your opening seven:  74%(10), 79%(11), 81%(12))

2) I never liked Mystical that much. It’s great with Jar and sometimes wins you a game just as any other card. But showing what you get is pretty bad vs. control.decs in general. Therefore I cut the Mystical and Infernal Contract (played that ofter Eric’s 3rd maindeck bounce-spell) for the other 2 Street Wraith.

3) Before I added Street Wraith I played with 1 EtW and 1 ToA as my maindeck winconditions. EtW maindeck was tech vs. Stax and Fish, but as Tinker/Colossus it didn’t feel right. Therefore I am playing 2 ToA at the moment. Another reason is, that with Street Wraith some draws can get pretty life-costing. Another options would be Burning Wish, but as Eric said it destroys your board and is just slower.

4) As many other metioned, Chain is a „must“ in the maindeck, as you don’t want to lose to MM or True Believer or Nether Void (Black Stax is rising ).

5) I am not sure wether SSG or Cabal Ritual is better in this version of long. I like boath in some ways. SSG fits my playstyle more,but with SW you get threshold faster and therefore SW makes Cabal Ritual better. And 5 rituals might be a little low for Necropotence.

6) I haven’t found EtW as good as i used to be anymore. Therefore i play only 2 in total. Together with cards that need rituals they really clock up your hand vs Fish.

7) Pyroclasm gets a SB-slot because our meta has some FCG and non-white Fish.decs.

Btw I still have 2 tournaments without the new B/R-Changes, therefore I don’t have Gush, but Gifts (still) in mind.


@ Eric:
1) Why do you board out I. Seal that often? I used to board out Mystical alot, but not I. Seal.
2) Some insights about 2 Tendrils as maindeck winconditions would be nice. As opposed to the 1/1 split with EtW or just 1 Tendrils.
3) How would SW impact your boarding-plans?

That’s it for now.



 

[ErkBek]

@ Eric:
1) Why do you board out I. Seal that often? I used to board out Mystical alot, but not I. Seal.

I boarded out I. Seal so much simply, because their are better cards to bring in. I guess the real argument here could be why do I board out Iseal over a Grim Tutor. The reason for that is in post board games I really dislike card disadvantage tutors. I've admittedly slowed down my deck a fair amount for game 2, so I'm not always rushing into turn 2 draw7's, which is what Iseal does so well.

2) Some insights about 2 Tendrils as maindeck winconditions would be nice. As opposed to the 1/1 split with EtW or just 1 Tendrils.

 

I tried 2 ETW in the maindeck when I first built this deck, and really disliked them. I don't like them in my opening hand and I hate hitting them over a tendrils on a draw7. I then switched to 1 and found that I never tutored it up. So I cut it all together.

3) How would SW impact your boarding-plans?

That is a huge question that I'm not prepared to answer. I've never even played Street Wraith before.

The reason I wrote such a detailed primer, that goes so in depth in matchups is so the reader could be enlightened and draw their own conclusions, specifically regarding matchups. I've done my best to inform you of what to expect and what cards to prepare for.

[2faces]

What are your thoughts on the GAT matchup? I've been playing this deck since you posted your last(?) tournament report and I'm loving it. However, I find that GAT's heavy disruption usually leaves me sitting with a lot of mana and a fow'd draw7 or similar. The REB's/pyro's from the sideboard are useful but it's still very hard. Ideas?

[ErkBek]

First off, here are the changes I made

-1 Rebuild
-1 Grim Tutor
-2 SSG
-1 Bloodstained Mire
+4 Street Wraith
+1 Volcanic

I then put the 2 SSG's in my sideboard to bring in with the Red cards.

What are your thoughts on the GAT matchup? I've been playing this deck since you posted your last(?) tournament report and I'm loving it. However, I find that GAT's heavy disruption usually leaves me sitting with a lot of mana and a fow'd draw7 or similar. The REB's/pyro's from the sideboard are useful but it's still very hard. Ideas?

The Duress + Scroll + FoW package is really a pain for Long. I liked it when people played the Drain + Scroll + FoW package instead. Far too often I find that I have been turn 1 duressed and my opponent has turn 2 countermagic up, then they go into an explosive turn 3.

One thing that you can do to combat this is run more threats and less tutors. It may be a good time put Windfall back in the deck since it is a just that must be Duressed or FoW's from the opponent's perspective. I'd probably cut either Iseal or Mystical Tutor to put this in the deck. Other than that I'm not too sure what to do.

I'm not sure that this deck is the best choice for the new metagame. Bomberman, Ichorid, Flash, and GAT are all probably just under 50-50.

I'm sure that there is another combo deck out there that is better for the new metagame. I've got a list in my head that I'm sure would be solid, but it's mostly untested at the moment. If anyone wants the list PM me.

[twault]

I kinda surprised that you didn't mention how good Hurkyll's Recall and Rebuild are. After building this, I was really diggin those two cards. You can get rid of your opponent's pesky artifacts like SoR, or recast your Moxes to add to the storm count. Solid.

So, what's the deal? Are you retired or what? LOL. I hope to see more primers with your name on them in the future.

[ErkBek]

So, what's the deal? Are you retired or what? LOL.

I think what I'm going to do is just go to big events from now on. I haven't really played cards other than last weekend. I've been on forums a lot lately though since I'm at my computer all the time since I'm looking (and applying) for jobs online.

The big tournaments are too much fun not to go to if it's a possibility to make them. It's also really nice that I don't have to own cards to play in them either, because all I have to do is call up some friends to borrow cards for a big event. At my last event I borrowed my whole deck with sideboard from Jeff Folinus and Jeremy Seroogy.