[Deck Discussion] 4-Gush GroATog

[Bob The Builder]

I think if you can make room for 3 Yixlid Jailer you're better off with cutting another street wraight and play 4 MD Leyline of the Void.

It helps slow down any deck that uses the grave, and in vintage, what deck doesn't use it's grave ??

[Purple Hat]

does jailer do something I'm unaware of vs flash?

[zeus-online]

Jailer pretty much only affects ichorid, only exception i can think of is Deep analysis in dragon, but i doubt dragon is playable at the moment.

I really think it's just 3 dead cards in any other match then ichorid.

/Zeus

[alvin6688]

I think if you can make room for 3 Yixlid Jailer you're better off with cutting another street wraight and play 4 MD Leyline of the Void.

It helps slow down any deck that uses the grave, and in vintage, what deck doesn't use it's grave ??

Hmm I guess you have a good point there. Leyline does seem better than Jailer because it hoses both Ichorid and Flash. I'm not sure if cutting Street Wraith is the right answer, but maindeck Leyline does seem more juicy. Aside from Leyline, what are some other cards that are often sided in against both Ichorid and Flash? Crypt, Needle...

[Purple Hat]

I think if you can make room for 3 Yixlid Jailer you're better off with cutting another street wraight and play 4 MD Leyline of the Void.

It helps slow down any deck that uses the grave, and in vintage, what deck doesn't use it's grave ??

Hmm I guess you have a good point there. Leyline does seem better than Jailer because it hoses both Ichorid and Flash. I'm not sure if cutting Street Wraith is the right answer, but maindeck Leyline does seem more juicy. Aside from Leyline, what are some other cards that are often sided in against both Ichorid and Flash? Crypt, Needle...

I don't think gat can afford to play 4 uncastable cards in the main deck.  that makes leyline a pretty bad choice for the deck.

[Bob The Builder]

I think if you can make room for 3 Yixlid Jailer you're better off with cutting another street wraight and play 4 MD Leyline of the Void.

It helps slow down any deck that uses the grave, and in vintage, what deck doesn't use it's grave ??

Hmm I guess you have a good point there. Leyline does seem better than Jailer because it hoses both Ichorid and Flash. I'm not sure if cutting Street Wraith is the right answer, but maindeck Leyline does seem more juicy. Aside from Leyline, what are some other cards that are often sided in against both Ichorid and Flash? Crypt, Needle...

I don't think gat can afford to play 4 uncastable cards in the main deck.  that makes leyline a pretty bad choice for the deck.

I don't think GAT can afford to play MD leyline either, but since Alvin made room for 3 Yixlid Jailers, imho he would be better of running leyline.  I doubt it would make a big dif overall, but it could buy him some time now and again to win his game... or even make him win a game he's got no business winning

[kombat]

Did anyone reading this play this deck at SCG Roanoke?  If so, what list did you run?  How did it perform?  What changes would you make to the deck/sideboard?

[FTKzak]

Did anyone reading this play this deck at SCG Roanoke?  If so, what list did you run?  How did it perform?  What changes would you make to the deck/sideboard?

It wasn't legal for this tournament unfortunately. Hopefully the upcoming ELD and Myriad tournaments will show us something.

[Dralock]

Did anyone reading this play this deck at SCG Roanoke?  If so, what list did you run?  How did it perform?  What changes would you make to the deck/sideboard?

It wasn't legal for this tournament unfortunately. Hopefully the upcoming ELD and Myriad tournaments will show us something.

Tog (various forms) was t8 in two separate tournaments at the end of last year, and I think made t10 at the first SCG of this year. I don't have the time to go fetch the links, and the SGC homepage is there for everyone to use. I don't see how four gushes is going to make a difference in the overall quality of the deck as it is strong now. I'd pick up two, maybe three and focus more on the development for the rest of your deck.

I am going to have to agree that GAT is probably still going to be the best tournament contender, simply because it doesn't play the waiting game. Bull-rush strategy seems to be the forefront of Vintage at the moment and you are either on the train, or fighting it.

Why night's whisper over read the runes? Blue = better in my opinion.

[Purple Hat]

Why night's whisper over read the runes? Blue = better in my opinion.

you're probably not gonna have many perms to sac so read the runes is a 3 mana careful study where nights whispers is 2 mana, 2 life for 2 cards.

[Beatdown]

I have been out of the loop for a while, and this is somewhat of a side note but has anyone tried vinelasher kudzu in this deck. With lots of fetch lands and 4 gush it could pretty much become dryad 5-8.

[Pomaxx]

i tested Grow-A-Tog lately and used the common shell to start with. as the main slots seem fixed, i thought about running Street Wraith or Sleight of Hand, but both did not satisfy me at all. the life loss of Wraith and the fact, that he does not make your sweet green witch bigger, send  him to the bench for now. sleight of hand is ok....but not that spectacular.
as a former fish player i took a look at my former aggro-control deck, spotted  daze and choose to give it a try.
at first i thought that taking an island back for daze is not what you want to do, when trying to grow dryad via gush is your primary target. in theory this still is true, but as i packed up my cards and went testing, i faced flash.dec and we played out like 12 games without sb. i was amazed by daze here, as the additional counter was exactly what putted the matchup slightly in my favor.
the issue between missing synergy of daze/gush was slim, as you are playing the control route for sure and after surviving to turn 3 (thanks to daze)you should be able to gush AND daze if you want without much difficulty. first turn dryad with daze backup is pretty good when backed up with duress next turn.

[zeus-online]

first turn dryad with daze backup is pretty good when backed up with duress next turn.

Except that you already made a mistake: Against combo you cast duress before the dryad.

This is not saying that Daze isn't worth it, if i'm not mistaken the first Gro deck in T1 (Several years ago) ran both daze and foil.
...Although foil is probably just plain bad.

/Zeus

[Pomaxx]

Except that you already made a mistake: Against combo you cast duress before the dryad.

This is not saying that Daze isn't worth it, if i'm not mistaken the first Gro deck in T1 (Several years ago) ran both daze and foil.
...Although foil is probably just plain bad.

i didnt make a mistake, i just tried to explain the  general early game synergy between dryad and daze without taking a deeper look at the combo matchup. (although i was referring to it before, so blame our misunderstanding on me)

first turn duress with daze backup is strong against combo (holding force/ blue as well) and good in other matchups too.

i just wanted to toss daze in the ring, as there seem to be some slots that may be modified to some degree.

[Smmenen]

I have had just incredible success with this list:

4 Quirion Dryad
1 Psychatog
4 Street Wraith
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Duress
4 Gush
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard:

  1 Berserk
  1 Fire/Ice
  1 Echoing Truth
  2 Red Elemental Blast
  1 Pyroblast
  2 Submerge
  2 Artifact Mutation
  3 Yixlid Jailer
  2 Tormod’s Crypt

Essentially, anything that would start the game with Polluted Delta is a win.   Anything that starts the game with Mishra's Workshop or Bazaar of Baghdad is a loss, at least game one.    I've even faced super-uber hate decks and crushed them.  People who think Nix is good against GAT are just wrong.   It's not "hot tech."  It's terrible.   

This deck is remarkably consistent.  For instance, I can't even recall the last time I had to mulligan for reasons other than post-board against Ichorid.   


The deck is also extremely forgiving.  I make mistakes with it all the time and it often just doesn't matter.   The forgiveness factor is extremely high.

This deck is just incredibly amazing!   

LOL, this deck was illegal for 3 years!    They brought back Gush!!!   LOLOLOLOL

[zeus-online]

So how is game two against shops and bazaars? Hopefully alot better
...How bad is g1 against stax? With fow's and early beats i can't imagine it as entirely "unwinable"

/Zeus

[Smmenen]

So how is game two against shops and bazaars? Hopefully alot better
...How bad is g1 against stax? With fow's and early beats i can't imagine it as entirely "unwinable"

/Zeus

I can only answer those questions anecdotally at this point, as my testing isn't large enough to have statistical significance, but the game 1 against STax is pretty dreadful.

If you aren't running basic Island, don't bother showing up as you will *frequently* get turn one 2Sphered. 

Trinisphere is super back-breaking.   I almost pulled out several games thanks to Cunning Wish for Fire/Ice.

Your only real "out" is to get Fastbond going, but that's a long shot.   Alternatively, if you can Force their first spell and keep ahead in tempo, you can potentially win, but Stax has evolved LIGHT YEARS from where it was in 2003.   The tools they have are so much more powerful and the stax players and stax design so much more sophisticated.   It's a very depressing matchup, but definitely solvable.   Artifact Mutation is just as amazing as it ever was, post board.

Game 2 against Bazaars is much better than game one.   Bring in Submerge, E. Truth, 2 Crypts, and Jailers. 

[jakjakman]

Steve, it looks like you swapped out the mana crypt for another wraith in comparison to your SSG article.  So it seems that you really like the wraiths in this deck then.  I was wondering if you could give a little input into how you use them.  Do you cycle them immediately?  Or do you prefer to wait and use them in conjunction with your topdeck tutors?  Thanks.

[Smmenen]

I do.  I love the Wraiths.  I use them immediately unless I'm actually holding a Mystical Tutor or Vamp or unless I'm comboing out and I don't need to see that additional card, in which case I tend to Brainstorm them back and shuffle. 

[tomjoad]

I see that the SB still has two Mutations and zero Ancient Grudges. Is Mutation so much better that you wouldn't want one of each?

[Purple Hat]

steve, you cut the utility land slot.  do you still find library/strip unconvincing?  with gush it's pretty easy to get back up to 7 in the middle turns allowing you to draw extra cards.  and I could see strip on bazaar or workshop helping to save some game 1's.  I'd only play 1 or the other but I'm surprised to see neither in your list.  also your board contains no hurkyls and no energy flux for the workshop matchup.  do you just think it's uncommon enough or that 2 mutations are enough?

[Scyther]

I'm curious about the same thing Purple Hat mentioned.
Why the lonely Island and not Strip Mine/ Lybrary?

Also only 2 Artifact Hate cards look not optimal for me. Did even think someone about possible Chalice2? Nothing can get rid of this. So a Oxidize in the board maybe is not the worst choice. It's additional Artifact Hate and can be found with Wish.
And maybe with the Oxidize a third Mutation should be included. Its just super-inferior to Ancient Grudge! It's efect just doubles against Staxx. It gets rid of an Artifact of choice and puts you way ahead in the permanent war...

[Smmenen]

steve, you cut the utility land slot.  do you still find library/strip unconvincing?  with gush it's pretty easy to get back up to 7 in the middle turns allowing you to draw extra cards.  and I could see strip on bazaar or workshop helping to save some game 1's.  I'd only play 1 or the other but I'm surprised to see neither in your list.  also your board contains no hurkyls and no energy flux for the workshop matchup.  do you just think it's uncommon enough or that 2 mutations are enough?

I have found basic Island to be critical against Workshops, which are a nightmare matchup.    Strip Mine isn't going to stop Mox, Land Sphere of Resistence.   Your entire deck just becomes almost shut down at that point.    Merchant Scrolls cost 3 as do Dryads.    You will need a stable source of mana so you can throw other lands out there to cast spells expecting that they will get Wasted.   

This isn't a storm deck, Hurkyl's Recall isn't going to win the game by itself.    The Workshop match needs alot of testing and tuning to get it right.    It's a horrible game one situation.    Energy Flux?  Does any Stax deck seriously have trouble with Energy Flux anymore?  Not to mention, getting to 4 mana with Tangle Wires, Sphere of Restence, and Crucible+ Wasteland is quite a chore.   I'm just asking....

Re: Grudge.   This matchup needs to be tested intensely.

Try beating this decklist:

Nam Tran
1st at Mean Deck Open

4 Goblin Welder
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 Powder Keg
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Balance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Memory Jar
1 Trinisphere
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Workshop

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Hi Steve, for the Stax-matxhup I'm somewhat worried about your actual anti-stax SB for two reasons. First as mentioned already, Chalice @ 2 kills all your SB and should be Stax's goal anyway, considering it removes your winconditions, a single Tog aside. Second because the Mutations need red mana and you (like me) run only a single Volcanic Island (the old 2003 builds had 2 and no Crucible on the other side of the table). I'd be worried that Stax barely manages to live through the first mutation and I can't cast my SB hate any more.
As a more general note, with the first game being as tough as you mentioned, shouldn't there be more SB-space devoted to it? It's not like there aren't at least six easy cuts MD, especially going second  (MisD & Duress). And I completely agree on the necessity of a Basic Island to enable Gush against Wastelands while still playing something turn 1. How is the Petal shaping up?

This isn't a storm deck, Hurkyl's Recall isn't going to win the game by itself.    The Workshop match needs alot of testing and tuning to get it right.    It's a horrible game one situation. Energy Flux?  Does any Stax deck seriously have trouble with Energy Flux anymore?

Ironically, the Stax you listed seems like it would die a horrible death should Energy Flux ever stay in play until they enter their upkeep. And if they board in all their Blasts plus the enchantment-hate, their ability to actually lock you down seems like it would be hugely impeded. I agree on the three mana problem, though.
As for Hurkyl's, while it doesn't kill Stax on it's own like in Gifts, it should create an opening for you to drop enough random stuff on the board to cause them some trouble. And, most importantly, it can be fetched by Merchant Scroll (if you have something better that Scroll can get, let me know)

/edit: spelling/grammar

[Smmenen]

Hi Steve, for the Stax-matxhup I'm somewhat worried about your actual anti-stax SB for two reasons.

1) The game one stax matchup is very bad.

2) so far, I have done minimal post board testing

3) beating stax will require intense testing of a range of SB options and assessment of what works best

4) I haven't done that yet.

My rule of thumb is this:

1) your opponent starts the game with Polluted Delta or Flooded Strand, you win game one.

2) Your opponent starts the game with Bazaar or Workshop, you lose game one.

I've tested the Ichorid matchup post board pretty intensely, but I haven't gotten to the Workshop match yet.   

This deck is amazing and stax will be a problem that needs to be solved.    However, let's not put disproportionate emphasis on Stax just yet.    There isn't even any evidence that Stax will be played.   After all, Stax put ZERO people in the top 8 at SCG Roanoke and is a very marginal part of hte pre-Gush metagame.   We can't be sure that it will rise as GroAtog rises.  In addition, Stax has a much broader metagame it has to face than it did in 2003, and much more hostile.   

In short, I hear what everyone is saying about Stax, and I agree, but I think that this emphasis is unwarranted at the moment.    Stax is relevant, but not hugely important, at least not yet.   It is something I will try to deal with in the near future, but not really high on my priority list at the moment.    On the other hand, if you guys have been testing against Stax and would like to offer more suggestions, I will put them into my testing regime, when I actually do sit down and tackle the matchup (which could be for some time). 

Now, with all that Stax discussion out of the way, let me say that the GAT list I posted is just incredible.  It's incredibly consistent, it's powerful, and its very forgiving to play mistakes.    I suggest it as a powerful weapon for players of all skill levels.  It's honestly hard for me to imagine playing anything else.   Anything else is less consistent, marginally more powerful (the Mean Deck or Grim Long variants) without being as consistent, and definitely less robust overall.   

Stephen

[Xman]

If I remember correctly, a board of 3 Ground Seal, 2 Artifact Mutation & an Echoing Truth usually is more than enough to deal with Stax (or for that matter, anything that decides to play Welder Tricks on you).  Ground Seal is savage against any welder decks, for obvious reasons.  Plus it Cantrips!  In the board, it does wonders game 2.  5 Slots in the board there (assuming you run a Truth Main), and with a 'zrk, Fire/Ice, Some Jailers, makes a pretty decent board.

But I have been playing a slightly different list.  I don't think 6 fetches is right.  I think it is to many fetches.  5 is the most I would run in this.  The only differences really from Steve's Last list is -1 Strand, -1 Wraith, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Misdirection.  I feel 3 Mis-D do wonders in the deck, and give you enough double control back up.  Yes, they would be the first to go in a Stax matchup, but against most decks, they work well.  the maindecked Echoing Truth gives you yet another answer to problems like Spheres in Game 1, plus you can still go to your toolbox with your 1 wish.

Another option I would consider is replacing the single Mystical Tutor for an Imperal Seal.  I feel that the extra way to go grab fastbond is important as it allows youto ocmbo out quicker, gro faster, and just do all of the fun nutty things that you can do in this deck.

But like Steve, I don't raly ee myself playing any other deck.  I love Control Slaver, but before tiwas restricted, I played 4-Gush GAT.  Now that it is unrestricted again, HAHAHAHAHA, I get to play it again.  Last night, I played 10 games against a friend who played any deck he wanted (he used Belcher, and we both decided it was just a bad deck for him), and I used a 4-Gush GAT build.  I lost games 1 & 3.  I won out from there.  such a wicked Evil Deck. 

As for Stax, yes it is a tough matchup, but I do think it will be there in the meta.  It always is.  There is always someone trying out a new stax build, and we will see what happens.  After all, it is a popular deck & has a good history of doing well.  So it didn't make one tournaments T8, thats fine.  Every deck can have a bad torunament.  How did Stax do at Roanoake?

As for vs. Combo decks, get a turn 1 duress, or a Force or Mis-D, and youshould b able to stay alive until turn 2, in which case, just race them.  Combo knows they have to get the win earlier than you have to gro a dryad.  After all, Dryad is usualy lethal in 2 or 3 turns.  But post board, I don't think I would do much vs. Combo.  GAT already has a pretty decent matchup.  Maybe try to grab a stifle or something similar to help vs. Flash & Tendrils.  Any other ideas for vs. Combo?

[Purple Hat]

reb is great vs flash, the mean deck and pitch versions of long.  it gives you another counter for everything.  it's also great in the mirror.

[Smmenen]

Ground Seal is an option I forgot about that we once run.   Also, I ran Ground Seal at GP Columbus and it is INSANE against Flash.    It's an echantment, which is even harder to remove, it cantrips, and it completely shuts them out.   Another good option. 

[Purple Hat]

it only works against kiki-jiki flash though.  it doesn't work vs the sliver kill which wasn't legal yet at columbus.

[Smmenen]

Yes, that's true.