Aggro better in Vintage? Deck and format discussion!

[Kataki_Rulez]

OK, so, since Gifts is now restricted, and Gush unrestricted, it seems to me like Aggro/Fish will be getting the break it finally deserves. All of you have seen my R/W List (hopefully). That deck is done, so I was wondering, with the new upsurge of Aggro, does anyone here think that 10-land Stompy (or Stompy in general) is playable? What list. I like playing unpowered Vintage, because Legacy is Vintage for girly men in my opinion, but I just don't have power (yet). So, help please! I have made up my mind on the following matters:
1) 4 Land Grant!!! No more than 16 land!
2) This deck should be Mono-Green. I love Vintage, and Stompy seems fun in both Casual and Competitive, so no splashing.
3) No Berserk. This is not a financial issue, I should have access to 2 or 3 from some buds of mine, but I prefer to think outside the box.
4) No, I am not some stupid n00b with a precon. I am very serious about Vintage, and take the forma to heart when analyzing new sets.
So, suggestions welcome!
Cheers!

[Tin_Mox5831]

Well, the answer to your question entails a long, arduous journey with a lot of to-and-fro. To make things a bit easier to process, we'll break it down a bit.

A) Is Stompy viable?
- Yes, and at the same time, a huge resounding No. The deck's basic strategy is trumped by Ichorid due to Bridge From Below and by Stax due to it's mana denial and the presence of Balance in 5-Color variants. However, you can build the deck in such a way that can overcome these issues.

B) Thanks for nothing. How do I do that?
- The first step on the road to viability is almost certainly Chalice Of The Void. In terms of sheer power, this card is likely the most game-changing card in your deck's potential cardpool. It's a play that won't hinder you in the slightest when set at zero, and you can even set it at one if the need arises. The next card that springs to mind is Tormod's Crypt. This play, however, conflicts with Chalice Of The Void set to zero. Leyline Of The Void has potential from the sideboard, but since you prefer to keep the deck mono-green, the best bet would appear to be to run Chalice and Tormod's Crypt and simply manage the game as best you can.

C) How about sideboarding?
- This aspect should be largely determined by your personal taste, but there are some cards that I feel offer invaluable help in certain matchups.

Possible sideboard choices include:

Bind
Tormod's Crypt (You may need these in the main to keep up in Vintage, though.)
Wasteland/Strip Mine (Mana denial plus Chalice Of The Void could prove potent in many matchups.)
Phyrexian Furnace
Moment's Peace

D) The List?
- Oops, gotta go!    In all seriousness, your playstyle will be the main barometer when constructing this deck. I've been overheard discussing Stompy in Vintage/Legacy on many occasions, so I certainly wish you the best in this endeavor and I am confident that ample playtesting will yield a good list if you put the time in.

Best of luck,
Dave

[Discozombie]

being a former stompy player I think the archetype can become viable again with the unrestriction of black vise. 

here are some suggestions

creatures

hidden gibbons
hidden guerillas
hidden herd
skyshroud elite
viridian zealot
river boa
mire boa
werebear
jungle lion
nimble mongoose
xantid swarm
rogue elephant
basking rootwalla

Disruption

black vise
rootmaze
chalice of the void
pithing needle
ground seal

the only pump to run is rancor.  period

mana

land grant
elvish spirit guide
mox emerald
black lotus

I guess tomorrow I would play around with something like this

4 Hidden Herd
4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Hidden Guerillas
4 Viridian Zealot
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Ground Seal
4 Black Vise
4 Root Maze
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
5 Snow Covered Forest (just for fun)
5 Forest
 
this is just a quick build for a totally random metagame.  I would really consider adding red and then add simian spirit guide for a total of 8 free mana critters. 

[zulander]

Rancor is not the only pump to run, don't forget about bounty of the hunt. And as the OP said no power, so I'd take out lotus/emerald for chrome mox and lotus petal.

[spindrift]

Where is Bounty of the hunt?

It is a free pump that can target more than one creature!  What is more, it works great with those unusaeable land grants early in the game!

Edit:
I'm too slow!

[Discozombie]

Zulander:  I simply believe that the only reasonable pump to run is rancor since it is the only one that provides any viability to the deck.  Rancor is great later game since you can simply drop all the ones you have on what ever creature you have left.  And they can be great against smokestack.  I have never been a fan of bounty and vine dryad since they require two cards to generate their effect and in a deck with absolutely no draw what so ever I do not think it is the best strategy. I would run berserk as pump next since in a pinch you can hit their creatures and kill them that way.  Grunt will swing for 8, but that's all she wrote after that turn. plus double berserk on a hidden guerilla is good game... but not really worth the inclusion.

quick side, what about dryad arbor?  totally forgot that one

[zulander]

A land that you cant use until next turn seems a little bad, the extra one damage he puts on the board just doesn't seem worth it. Also, in case you play against fish I'd have 4 river boa and 4 dryad sophisticate.

Cost:      1 ManaGreen Mana
Card Type:    Creature - Dryad
P/T:    2/1
Rules Text (Oracle):    Nonbasic landwalk

I'm also not sold on hidden guerrillas. I'd put them in the side.

[Jank Golem]

As much as I love Green cards and having played Mono Green Fish now does not seem to be their time to shine, even more so if you are playing Stompy. The format has gotten faster and counters are the only way for Fish decks to keep up. Why play Stompy over a combo deck that can win several turns faster with much more disruption. Green cards, even Mono Green could be viable but you have to make the deck Fish with lots of disruption rather then Stompy with no disruption.

[Kataki_Rulez]

Thank you for the help; here is the list:

Mana:
10 Forest
1 Strip Mine
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant (may as well be)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Beats:
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 River Boa
4 Jungle Lion
3 Rushwood Legate
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Viridian Zealot

Hate:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Hidden Guerrilas
4 Hidden Gibbons
3 Hidden Herd

Pump:
3 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Rancor

That's 60 cards, through and through. Help is welcome!!!

[Implacable]

The really critical question to ask yourself when you're building a rogue deck is what it beats.  In order to answer this question, you must analyze your build, and look at the way it matches up, card-for-card, against the stock decks of the format.

PitchLong: PitchLong has an average kill of Turn 2, perhaps a little more, and your only way to interact with them is through Chalice of the Void.  You realistically cannot win this matchup.

GrimLong: See PitchLong, but GrimLong is even faster.

Oath: Oath kills very quickly or very slowly.  The one advantage that you may have is that some of their cards, like Misdirection and Null Rod, are useless against you.  The problem is that, if they get Oath active in the first three turns, you essentially have no way to win.  They do that consistently.

Ichorid: It's not even a game.

Flash: Flash is as fast as GrimLong, and is not so bothered by Chalice.  You don't really have game against any combo deck.

Stax: This matchup is interesting.  They can lock you out quickly with Stack or Wire, but you can hope to flood them with permanents, or alternatively hurt them with Zealots, Strip, and Chalice.  This seems fairly even.

Control Slaver: You certainly do have game against this deck.  Control Slaver is fairly slow, and thus you can certainly hope to squeak out wins against this deck.  However, if they get to Turn 5 or 6 with more than 3 life, you are in trouble, because they can by then find Trike or Colossus, both of which wreck you nicely.

Fish: You win this one.  Fish can't handle little men.

In summation, you can't compete against any combo deck, nor Ichorid, nor Oath.  You have two relatively even matchups, and one good one.  Successful hate decks are predicated upon the principle that they can beat the established decks, and that the metagame is predictable enough that rogue choices are not popular.  Your deck cannot beat much of the metagame.  The only way to build this deck would to be to add a truckload of disruption to it, but even that would not give it good matchups against Flash, Ichorid, Oath, or your feverish nightmare, GAT.

[Kataki_Rulez]

GAT??? Sorry, I'm not quite following that particular acronym. As to what you say? You are 100% right. I don't know how to deal with combo or Ichorid. How could I? Some suggestions I've heard are Engineered Explosives, to kill Bridge tokens, and Loaming Shaman, which is awesome against Ic. The real problem is combo...hmmm. Does anyone have any suggestions? Remember, combo is probably going down, but you still need to incorporate it, because even at this currently weakened level, it still makes up at least 30% of the metagame, and that's a gross understatement. Loaming pwns Ichorid, but what owns Oath and Long? I don't think Hulk Flash is as viable in Vintage as it is made out to be, but some people still play it. I shall think on this further. I agree that Stompy is having problems with the current meta, but I think that the deck shouldn't be totally discounted. My the Mountains Win Again build is doing pretty well, but that's because Red is probably the 3 best colour in Vintage. This deck needs help, so all who are willing, I urge you, POST!!!

[Implacable]

GAT??? Sorry, I'm not quite following that particular acronym. As to what you say? You are 100% right. I don't know how to deal with combo or Ichorid. How could I? Some suggestions I've heard are Engineered Explosives, to kill Bridge tokens, and Loaming Shaman, which is awesome against Ic. The real problem is combo...hmmm. Does anyone have any suggestions? Remember, combo is probably going down, but you still need to incorporate it, because even at this currently weakened level, it still makes up at least 30% of the metagame, and that's a gross understatement. Loaming pwns Ichorid, but what owns Oath and Long? I don't think Hulk Flash is as viable in Vintage as it is made out to be, but some people still play it. I shall think on this further. I agree that Stompy is having problems with the current meta, but I think that the deck shouldn't be totally discounted. My the Mountains Win Again build is doing pretty well, but that's because Red is probably the 3 best colour in Vintage. This deck needs help, so all who are willing, I urge you, POST!!!

Grow-A-Tog = GAT.  It plays Gush, Fastbond, Quirion Dryads (which wreck you), and Psychatog. 

To deal with Long, you would want to play cards like Root Maze and Null Rod. 

No, Loaming Shaman is not very good against Ichorid.  Sure, it wrecks them if you cast it, but casting it is a big problem.  Ichorid is now a Turn 2-3 kill deck, and  you are not guaranteed to have three mana on Turn 3.  Root Maze, Pithing Needle, and Tormod's Crypt are the best answers to Tormod's Crypt.

Why is combo going down?

To Hulk Flash not being good in Vintage:
Eudemina, 1st Place
ELD's Mox V, Top 8
Catalan Vintage League V, 2nd Place
Hulk Flash has been legal for a month.  I think these results pretty clearly prove its viability.

[zeus-online]

Add 4 rootmaze MD...they help alot versus combo..

Use 4 Leyline and 2-4 serum powder (to mull into the leylines) in the SB to guard against ichorid.

However, i do not believe that stompy is viable, it's simply put too slow and almost every current deck dosn't care about any of your cards (Except for rootmaze and chalice)

/Zeus

[zulander]

Don't forget about tormod's crypt.

[Kataki_Rulez]

What I was trying to say about Flash is that I think it is just another good combo deck, but not like "OMG, Flash is the super broken tech, KILL anyone who plays it!!!" Point is, the deck's getting much better. Here's what it looks like now:

Mana:
9 Forest
1 Strip Mine
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures:
4 Hidden Guerrilas
4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Skyshroud Elites
3 Rushwood Legate
4 River Boa
3 Viridian Zealot

Hate:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Root Maze
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder

Pump:
4 Rancor

I'm thinking of cutting some of the stuff in here for Bounty of the Hunt... Until then, I'll stick with this. If anyone has any other suggestions, feel free to post.
Cheers,
Kataki
PS: I'm not making this deck for some stupid n00b reason like "I like green!" I'm making this deck for (pseudo) serious play, with Vintage-playing buddies, or at my local tournaments, where a lot of the decks are just bad combo (as in just bad, like no wills or tendrils), or t2 players flashing the Ancestral Recall that they won a month ago. Thank you for your time and pain while reading this.

[zulander]

-4 Hidden guerrillas + 4 hidden herd. Herds become guys sooner and on more occasions then guerrillas do. Although it does depend on your meta.

[Kataki_Rulez]

Are you crazy? No offence, but Guerrillas is better than Herd. Why? More artifacts. Look, every deck I've ever seen in Vintage has at least a few artifacts, and I also understand that life is just a thing that you keep track of for storm count, but a 5/3 is better than a 3/3 just because of power. Possibly the stupidest reason ever, but still true. So stop suggesting Herd!!! If I were to change it, it would be Hidden Gibbons, anyways!
EDIT: And I also know every deck runs nonbasics, but with P9 Flying around, I think that you need as much power as possible. Also, what do you guys have to say about Tangle Wire and Scullclamp/Aether Vial? The first two were in the deck that I based this one off.

[Discozombie]

Here are a couple of tweaks I would do...

Mana: 16
8 Forest
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures: 28
4 Hidden Guerrilas
4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Hidden Herd
4 Skyshroud Elites
4 River Boa
4 Elvish Scrapper
4 Viridian Zealot

Hate: 16
4 Pithing Needle
4 Root Maze
4 Ground Seal
4 Black Vise

Sideboard

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Naturalize
3 Emerald charm

something that that, again depends on what meta you are going into. 

I agree with the general concensus that mono green stompy archetypes are not really viable.  I would look in to a RG version using simian spirit guides and elvish spirit guides in conjuction with land grants to get around rootmaze tech.  But you wanted monogreen so here it is.

[LotusHead]

Keen Sense from Planar Chaos is Curiosity for green
That could be a draw/threat engine.

[Kataki_Rulez]

Here's what I'm sitting on right now:

Mana:
8 Forest
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures: (24)
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Hidden Guerrila's
3 Rushwood Dryad
4 River Boa
4 Elvish Scrapper
3 Rushwood Legate

Hate:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Root Maze
4 Tangle Wire
4 Ground Seal
4 Bounty of the Hunt
2 Pithing Needle

That's what I have in my head, please, more help is welcome!!!

[dawgie]

Here is a deck that I used to run:

4 Tangle Wire
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Rancor
4 Giant Growth
3 Hidden Gibbons
4 River Boa
3 Hidden Guerillas
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Naturalize

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
11 Forest


This deck was somewhat fine in our local meta of control where the Hidden Gibbons was purely the problem. Since Stax was visible in our local meta, I had the maindeck Guerillas and Naturalizes just in case. As for the Swords, well I had no card drawer back then and this was the only thing that I can think of and available in my card pool. But this was about 2 years ago when combo was not visible yet. Now, players have risen up and are now playing with power which made this deck totally weak.

There are other creatures there. A friend was playtesting Silhana Ledgewalker which is sometimes a real b*tch to deal with. Maybe that can help you out.

I believe that even with all the hate, its hard to win without any counters especially with combo decks going around and you have a hard time against ichorid. The creatures are too small and might take a while to finish the game where the opponent most probably has changed the game to his / her favor.

Its still a fun deck to play with though. I still get a kick out of it when playing casually. 

[Discozombie]

I like the mana package

I am not a fan of this creature package

There are many creatures better than Rushwood Dryad.  Hidden herd, hidden gibbons, rogue elephant, basking rootwalla are all superior to the dryad.  G1 for a 2/1 forest walker is horrible.

Rushwood Legate is a metagame call.  I just think you need a bit more beef in there

I do not like the disruption slots

Chalice of the Void has very bad synergy with hidden guerillas since you want them to drop moxen to give you a 5/3. 

This deck cannot take advantage of Tangle Wire, plus rootmaze is already disrupting in that manner.  Wire will hurt you much more than your opponent.

Bounty of the Hunt is vastly inferior to rancor.  and rancor is not on of the better choices for this deck.  a creature would be better than bounty

I would like to see 4 pithing needles since they help with problematic matches.   Shuts down bazaar, welder, belcher, and the list goes on.  Hell you can even set needle to their fetch lands.  This is great with rootmaze since their fetch comes into play tapped.  drop needle naming that fetch and you have just cost them yet another land drop. 

I would really work in the black vise.  It was restricted for a reason. it should never hurt you and it can help you reach that twenty quicker. 

lets say first turn you drop a land, cast vise, then cast either a herd off an ESG

their turn they take 3 damage already from vise.  They will almost surely drop a fetch or non basic. 

next turn you swing for three.  They are already at 14 after only one attack.  if it was a guerilla they would have been at 12, again after turn 2.   

[Kataki_Rulez]

Wait, Rushwood Dryad is 2/1 Forestwalk? Hell, I thought it was the free 1/3 remove a card thingy. As  far as Tangle Wire goes, I'll have to see, but Pithing Needle will be in. Also, I think that if I play 4 Black Vise, then it's a good idea to run a bunch of Wild Mongrel. Thanks everybody!

[Harlequin]

Rushwood Dryad is a 2/1 forestwalker for 1G

Rushwood Legate is a 2/1 for 2G that can be played for free if you control a forest and your opponent controls an inland.

Vine Dryad is a 1/3 flash, forestwalk for 3G, with an alternate casting cost of RFG a green card.

[Discozombie]

I don't think you need the wild mongrel to avoid vise damage.  having played stompy often I can tell you that the only way you are going to be stuck with that many cards in hand is if some one has a TANGLE WIRE out.  please take out the tangle wire.  it really sucks in that deck.  how quick do you get to 2 mana? 

[Kataki_Rulez]

Umm... really quickly. And, please, everyone, stop obsessing over Black Vise. That thing really isn't as good as you say it is. Why? Because it looks something like the following:
You: Ha ha! I play two black vises!
Them: Beginning of my upkeep, take 6, draw Cabal Ritual of of Confidant, go down to 8. Now I go off....
You: This wouldn't have happened if I had a Tangle Wire in play!
Ok, here's the list I am definitely making, with only maybe one or two changes that I will outline:

Mana:
9 Forest
1 Strip Mine
1 Lotus Petal (Actual lotus if I ever win/proxy one)
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures:
4 Rushwood Legate (or Quirion Ranger, which one's better?)
4 Skyshroud Elites
4 Hidden Guerrilas
4 Elvish Scrapper
4 River Boa

Hate:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Root Maze

Pump:
4 Rancor

Board:
3 Naturalize
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder

That's that. My MWS deck record is, so far, 16-4, so 4:1. Not bad. I basically only need to know if Quirion Ranger or Rushwood Legate is better, then I'll probably close the topic.
-Kataki

[Ifflejink]

Against most archetypes, those Tangle Wires, considering your manabase, will probably be fairly meaningless, and definitely inferior to Black Vise. Storm combo won't care, at all. Something like Flash can just play the two mana it needs to win. Ichorid might be concerned for a bit, although it really won't matter in the end- the most it could do would be tap a Bazaar for 1-2 turns, which isn't at all game-wrecking. The Vise is a lot better here, although it doesn't impact the combo matchup.

I've got to ask why you're not running Wasteland. It may not provide green mana, but it's a very strong tempo play and your best non-Leyline way to stop Ichorid.

[netherspirit]

How about running Choke in the sideboard?

[Kataki_Rulez]

Choke= Great Idea (that thing is ANNOYING!)
Here's the Board
4 Choke
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Naturalize
Something about Black Vise:
People, stop giving it hype! Tangle wire is one of the things that DOES impact the combo matchup: Tangle Wire+ Root Maze= Multiple Time Walk. Sorry people, but Black Vise is just really easy to get around, and the only deck it can hate out is Vial Fish, which sees 0 play in my local meta.

[netherspirit]

Sorry people, but Black Vise is just really easy to get around

Not when you're running Root Maze, Tangle Wire and Null Rod...